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On March 16 2011 14:37 Backpack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 14:24 FXOpen wrote:On March 16 2011 14:15 da_head wrote:
invite only 5 koreans (or maybe 10). koreans have their own tourny, let NASL be for foreigners =D But you are wrong, koreans dont have their own tourny. They are a part of GSL, which is global, and anyone has a chance to qualify. However, unlike the NASL, it's offline so you have to stay in Korea indefinitely. Were it online, I wouldnt be surprised if there were more foreigners in it. (Im all for Koreans in NASL though, just pointing this out)
Even more reason to invite them yo.
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Koreans give a huge boost to such an event imo. We saw Moon and Ace owning at IEM and it certainly shows us how far ahead they are once more, but it's not as extreme as in SC:BW yet. Western players still have a realistic chance in competition when they practice well, perhaps less for overall victory but at least for single matches.
I don't think that it's wise to fix it to numbers like "5 Code A players" or "5 top koreans", but some Koreans would make NASL much more interesting overall. It shouldn't be purely/mostly korean though, but having a couple "good" Koreans mixed in would benefit the league.
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On March 16 2011 14:57 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 14:20 abominare wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 16 2011 13:57 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:42 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:26 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background.
Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer.
Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Who the hell are you marketing to? The people already in esports and don't care? Some dude isn't going to go on the internet, look at shit, hit the NASL, and then stop because the dude is Asian. If he is, fuck that guy. We already ignore all the racists in our country. Nor is the NASL going to break into the mainstream. It's another SC tourney that will be watched and loved by us on TL, it's not suddenly going to get Joe Schmoe to watch SC. edit- also, foreigners aren't watched by the US? How do you explain all the Hispanic and Japanese players in the MLB? When top teams get the coveted Japanese players no one was like "Fuck this team, I'm not going to watch now that we have a star Japanese player" they were hella excited. What happens if you don't invite any Koreans? Average viewer comes in, thinks "damn these guys are good", watches an IEM and thinks "the GSL is where it's at". You don't invite Koreans, you don't deserve to be called a top-tier competition. All the people in charge of this league have on numerous occasions that their goal for this is to expand e-sports more into the mainstream. This isn't the 'TeamLiquid.net Open" they want you to watch of course but they arent try to sell this to only you. They have stated numerous times that you were too dense to hear that they want to create compelling narratives and background stories for these players to appeal to a wider audience. Koreans by large cant do that for a western audience if they did then GSL would be on espn. Korea did it the right way when the started SC1. They pushed for the narrative focused on players who were marketable who they could put in movies or on posters for teen korean girls to drool over and thats what these NASL guys are after they want a product that they can sell beyond nerds on the tl forums. You can whine and complain how you think its racist and how youre too good for that and how you want this to be about the best players in the world but its not, it was never about bringing the ultimate players around the world because that would already be gsl its about pushing esports into the west. Also the MLB metaphor has already been explained stop bringing it up because youre too damn stupid to figure out why your a freaking moron. I'd tell you why you're wrong but I guess i'm too much of a moron to figure it out. The MLB metaphor is relevant because it proves that the American public doesn't care whether or not the players can speak English or not. Watch an interview; they all use translators. I don't know where you're getting your brood war history but they didn't somehow cherry pick the competition to be the "hottest", they still picked the best. No where in there did I say the NASL SHOULDN'T do their storyline thing, just that I personally believe it wouldn't push mainstream popularity. there's also no reason you can't push Asian players in the U.S. Far East Movement is all Asian and they have several hit songs. Wait, they can't be seen? Well how often do you see the players during a game? Maybe 30 seconds, at most? Wait, but they can't speak English? Several movies have come out to American audiences subbed and they do perfectly fine. Racist girl from UCLA bashes Asians? The internet shuts her down. I don't know where in the US you're pointing to that they're so racist that they won't watch Korean players, and those that are racist are in such a minority that they're inconsequential anyway. Lets try this one more time for feeling before I give up on your reading comprehension skills. The MLB metaphor is apple to oranges because the MLB was already an established sports that was until recently the most mainstream of all sports in the US. Everyone already knew about baseball and it had achieved a fantastic level of market saturation infact its exactly like how foreigners went to korea to complete in SC1/2. You know who sells tickets in american sports? Its personalities like Kobe, A Rod, Jordan, Babe Ruth, Tyson. Now lets take America where this sort of thing is nearly nonexistent outside of some obscure MLG/IEM circuit. The people working on NASL are out to make money, to make money they need a product that sells and preferably one not already tapped. A great way to sell a product especially a new sport is to make it engaging on levels beyond the actual sport and its easier to do this with hometown heroes and rivals that a population will relate to better. The fact that you think this has anything to do with race of course means youre a bigger fucking retard than i thought. I've never even heard of Far East Movement but I bet they have more musical talent than Bieber could ever hope to have guess who sells better. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon is a masterpiece of cinema, too bad crap like Avatar blew it out of the water in the US. These products werent technically better but they were better suited for mass marketing than their eastern equivalents. Just like a swedish company looking to be a sponsor for NASL would be more excited over Jinro playing than Slayers Boxer. I remember going to see the Lakers long before Kobe Bryant joined the team. I'll go to them after he retires also. Those people you listed are just icons of the sport they play and they came into their own. There wasn't some ringmaster that decided "let's fix this so these guys are the ones on top of their sport so people buy our tickets or watch whatever sport we are promoting." People are aware of professional gaming in the United States. It's just a lot of them cbf to watch someone else play a video game. That's the big hurdle that has to be overcome for esport to take over NBA, MLB, NHL etc. I don't think excluding international players from participation in NASL is gonna really win America over and this suddenly becomes national overnight with all the major networks calling Xeris.
The Seattle Mariners set an franchise attendance record Ichiro's rookie year. I know a lot of the people on this forum, if I had to completely make up a number and guess, mabye 50% are traditional sports fans. But it's been proven time and time again in america people just want to see the best players. It's funny you mention Tyson, who is a great example, that guy was a complete dick, he RAPED someone and not the internet gaming kind, and when he got out of jail, people still wanted to see him fight.
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Fact of the matter is, they should invite the koreans that are postulating, that took the time to be in the league. The ST guys took the time, and made the effort, and they should come, it would be great.
Bomber`s English was quite solid, and Virus as well. Pleasant surprise =D
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Here are the questions that should be asked:
1) Will the NASL be more or less popular if Koreans sweep the league?
If less popular, will this difference sink the league?
2) If the league is still popular, but Koreans win across the board, will this discourage companies from sponsoring foreign teams and players?
I feel confident that Koreans won't kill the NASL, but obviously companies want to sponsor winners. If foreign teams don't produce results then they won't get money. If they don't get money, they are less likely to form team houses and close that skill gap and that would mean that the western e-sports explosion we all want the NASL to be will have to happen elsewhere (or won't happen at all if you are one of those horribly pessimistic fans).
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I want to see MVP get his face handed to him by some Western gamer. Or Fruit Dealer. Or NesTea. Or MC. Or whomever. And it will happen. One of 'em will get wrecked, at least once. There are 9 "divisional" matches before the playoffs even start, and if you think all of these guys are going 9-0, you're nuts. The underdog wins once in a while, and I for one LOVE rooting for underdogs. And I can't wait to do it once the NASL starts up.
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I speak for me as a spectator. Having a GSL bis has no interest, people will always prefer the orginal one because they have much more money so they can do more fancy things. I want to see a competition, clash and ranking between foreigners, if i wanna see gosu koreans then i just watch GSL or sc bw.
my 2 cents
edit: 5 koreans (motivated players are welcome) whatever their lvl is enough
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On March 16 2011 14:20 abominare wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On March 16 2011 13:57 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:42 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:26 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background.
Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer.
Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Who the hell are you marketing to? The people already in esports and don't care? Some dude isn't going to go on the internet, look at shit, hit the NASL, and then stop because the dude is Asian. If he is, fuck that guy. We already ignore all the racists in our country. Nor is the NASL going to break into the mainstream. It's another SC tourney that will be watched and loved by us on TL, it's not suddenly going to get Joe Schmoe to watch SC. edit- also, foreigners aren't watched by the US? How do you explain all the Hispanic and Japanese players in the MLB? When top teams get the coveted Japanese players no one was like "Fuck this team, I'm not going to watch now that we have a star Japanese player" they were hella excited. What happens if you don't invite any Koreans? Average viewer comes in, thinks "damn these guys are good", watches an IEM and thinks "the GSL is where it's at". You don't invite Koreans, you don't deserve to be called a top-tier competition. All the people in charge of this league have on numerous occasions that their goal for this is to expand e-sports more into the mainstream. This isn't the 'TeamLiquid.net Open" they want you to watch of course but they arent try to sell this to only you. They have stated numerous times that you were too dense to hear that they want to create compelling narratives and background stories for these players to appeal to a wider audience. Koreans by large cant do that for a western audience if they did then GSL would be on espn. Korea did it the right way when the started SC1. They pushed for the narrative focused on players who were marketable who they could put in movies or on posters for teen korean girls to drool over and thats what these NASL guys are after they want a product that they can sell beyond nerds on the tl forums. You can whine and complain how you think its racist and how youre too good for that and how you want this to be about the best players in the world but its not, it was never about bringing the ultimate players around the world because that would already be gsl its about pushing esports into the west. Also the MLB metaphor has already been explained stop bringing it up because youre too damn stupid to figure out why your a freaking moron. I'd tell you why you're wrong but I guess i'm too much of a moron to figure it out. The MLB metaphor is relevant because it proves that the American public doesn't care whether or not the players can speak English or not. Watch an interview; they all use translators. I don't know where you're getting your brood war history but they didn't somehow cherry pick the competition to be the "hottest", they still picked the best. No where in there did I say the NASL SHOULDN'T do their storyline thing, just that I personally believe it wouldn't push mainstream popularity. there's also no reason you can't push Asian players in the U.S. Far East Movement is all Asian and they have several hit songs. Wait, they can't be seen? Well how often do you see the players during a game? Maybe 30 seconds, at most? Wait, but they can't speak English? Several movies have come out to American audiences subbed and they do perfectly fine. Racist girl from UCLA bashes Asians? The internet shuts her down. I don't know where in the US you're pointing to that they're so racist that they won't watch Korean players, and those that are racist are in such a minority that they're inconsequential anyway. Lets try this one more time for feeling before I give up on your reading comprehension skills. The MLB metaphor is apple to oranges because the MLB was already an established sports that was until recently the most mainstream of all sports in the US. Everyone already knew about baseball and it had achieved a fantastic level of market saturation infact its exactly like how foreigners went to korea to complete in SC1/2. You know who sells tickets in american sports? Its personalities like Kobe, A Rod, Jordan, Babe Ruth, Tyson. Now lets take America where this sort of thing is nearly nonexistent outside of some obscure MLG/IEM circuit. The people working on NASL are out to make money, to make money they need a product that sells and preferably one not already tapped. A great way to sell a product especially a new sport is to make it engaging on levels beyond the actual sport and its easier to do this with hometown heroes and rivals that a population will relate to better. The fact that you think this has anything to do with race of course means youre a bigger fucking retard than i thought. I've never even heard of Far East Movement but I bet they have more musical talent than Bieber could ever hope to have guess who sells better. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon is a masterpiece of cinema, too bad crap like Avatar blew it out of the water in the US. These products werent technically better but they were better suited for mass marketing than their eastern equivalents. Just like a swedish company looking to be a sponsor for NASL would be more excited over Jinro playing than Slayers Boxer.
This kind of response is ignorant to how sports actually work in America. Being around a sports management/marketing firm (much the same as IMG, the PE firm that invested in MLG) has granted me the chance to understand a little bit more about why the business of sports works. Discarding the fact that Japanese players came over to the MLB after it was established and using that to justify an "apple to oranges" argument is ludicrous. In the end they could just argue the break of the color barrier in baseball by Robinson, and this argument would be nullified.
However, let's look at a case that is closer to the so-called "apples to apples" that you propose. The MLS, considered an up and coming sports league (ie not fully established because of revenue numbers among other things), created a rule allowing a sort of free agency just so they could attract players who had better talent than Americans to their league. In the sports community, it is called the David Beckham Rule. He may not have been the best player, but he was much better than almost all of the current competition in the MLS and he was a transcendent figure. As such, he brought with him much larger revenue numbers for the league.
Unless, you are saying that eSports and Starcraft have no chance to become part of the world of sports, then you might want to rethink this idea of "apples to oranges."
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May be it's just me, but I don't care that much where a player is from. Who gives a shit where you were born? I root for the players who's style I like the best.
Plus the whole idea of protecting foreigners from the top Koreans is lame in itself. Why isn't MVP or MC invited? Oh, we're afraid they'll tear out players a new asshole, so we didn't invite them derp.
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part of me wants NASL to decide to have some fucked up korean exclusion policy before the GSL korea v. the world thing, because some koreans are gonna be pissed. it'd be interesting to watch.
also, i don't get how people complain about GSL when they cater to foreigners as much as they can. free spots for foreigners. anyone who can go to korea can qualify (no lag that way). tasteless and artosis to cast. they do so because they want to grow e-sports, and thus to get more money. they are not mutually exclusive. for players to "grow e-sports," their job is to WIN.
i think some sort of cap is fine. but i'd rather see a total exclusion of koreans than only allowing korean b-teamers to play, because that would just be a complete mockery. there's a balance between allowing the foreigner scene to grow and having the best competition possible. probably the best thing is to have limits for each region so that they are all represented, but not exclude anyone specifically because they are too good.
as for drama, i think the whole boxer/foxer thing and his rise from being easily dismissed by tastosis (wtf? nukes? all-ins?) to a great player with his own distinctive style is way more interesting than some stupid reality show type story line. also the dancing zerglings lol. all things that don't require speaking any specific language...or anything besides just playing the damn game. lots of these supposed "interesting" players from NA/EU play completely standard/boring.
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I voted 'other' because none of the options seem really appealing to me. Having a league with only the very best sounds good, but I think they should still try to balance where everyone is from. Maybe 33% Koreans (the very best), 33% Europeans and 33% Americans would be better. This way everyone has a chance to get in regardless of where they're from, while only the very best will reach the top 16.
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On March 16 2011 14:21 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 14:07 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:56 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2011 13:42 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:35 ZeromuS wrote:
I for one just don't want to see NASL be GSL Alternate. I know foreigners went to GSL for the same reasons Koreans want to come to NASL but IMO if we allow all koreans who want in in then we won't really see SC2 grow in NA and we won't foster a higher level of skill among the players. Part of the reason for the NASL is to see NA players get more exposure and improve their overall skill by growing esports. We can't do that if the league is filled with top koreans who dominate and become the majority of the NASL players over time.
I feel that Korean players whose only interest isn't in winning some money and learning 5 words in englishshould be invited .
I mean foreigners go to Korea to play in a major tournament, maybe win some money, explore a new country but most importantly grow as players. I don't feel that Koreans can come to NA to grow as players tbh, to me its more of a cash grab since they expect to win. I mean someone like Cella who interacts with the NA community and the foreigner scene is cool as he wants to help e-sports and starcraft here as well whereas someone like MOON would probably only be in it for the money unless he really makes a commitment to improving the over all skill level of the NA community and chooses to say something more than "koreans own white dudes" after winning :/ come on they made moon say that, he didnt choose to say it. I doubt he even knew what it meant he didnt even pronounce it properly. Also we wont foster a higher level of skill? So by not inviting the best players in the world and having the west try to compete at the highest possible level that doesnt foster a higher level of skill among players? that doesnt even make any sense We will probably not see pro-gaming houses if the NA or EU players dont get a chance to take part in the NASL due to it being predominantly played by Koreans. Why would you as a company endorse a team like EG or FNATIC or ROOT to have them support individuals in a team house when that team will probably not get much exposure in the NASL when the market you are trying to reach is based in NA or EU. At that point why not sponsor some of the korean teams and players who take part in the NASL since that will get you more exposure. More exposure of NA players will increase the likelihood for sponsorship and team houses to get established. The team house and practice situation is IMO the main thing holding back NA and EU. Half the koreans who play sc2 would be nothing without their team and the team house is an important aspect of why they are so good. By making the sponsorship more lucrative for companies to support establised korean teams, why would they put money into the NA teams? I mean even liquid has to double up with oGs in order have its players in Korea stand a chance like Jinro and HuK. I feel IdrA is probably the exception to being solid and great by living on his own in Korea. Even then, in a team house I'm sure his play would have really improved above that which we have seen yet. I;m not saying to exclude Korean players but we really need to be careful not to invite the entire cast of the GSL to play in the NASL since to invite the "best players" would involve inviting a TON of the GSL players and GSTL players we have seen. Im not saying let it be an all korean tournament, im saying let 10 -15 MAX of the best koreans compete in the tournament i dont think anyone in this thread thinks that the NASL should be predominantly koreans as you put it, but just as their will representation fromm europe their should be representation from korea, if you have 20 players from europe and korea then thats still 30 north american players and id still be pretty hard pressed to name 30 NA players who are at that top skill level and truely deserve to be in the NASL id have an easier time if i added in a few more european players though ^^ I am ok with this position ^^im ok with representation but to do that a limit must be placed no matter how arbitrary and give preference to players with some english skills over none so they can interact more easily or get a great translator 
So you think that a lesser player with better english skills should be given a spot over a Better player with worse english skills =/, its about the games man, especially because its an online tournament there isnt going to be much interaction besides pictures and statisics until they get to the round of 16 offline portion, all its gonna be about in the online portion is the commentators and the games and im positive there will be a translator for the offline part (thats the NASL's job and its their fault if they dont get one)
May as well let John the translator in over say Julyzerg then, is that what you would like?
John the translator for NASL because apparently they should value english skills over game skills 
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On March 16 2011 14:15 da_head wrote:
invite only 5 koreans (or maybe 10). koreans have their own tourny, let NASL be for foreigners =D
Its the NASL so if its for foreigners that would be koreans and europeans lol
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Why would we want a not-in-studio version of the GSL? The NASL should just be the big awesome league for the foreign scene. Wasn't that the whole point to begin with?
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NASL would be destined to fail if it does not simply invite the best of the best that want to compete. There would be no prestige in winning a league that is too scared to invite top level players, Korean or otherwise. Nationality should not even be a factor. If the best players happen to be Korean, invite them. If the best players happen to be Europeans, invite them. NASL should be a prestigious tournament based in North America with the best players in the world. Otherwise, even though it would still be cherished by the foreign community, it would always be a Code B tournament compared to the GSL.
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It's stupid and is discrimination not to invite them. If anything, it's forcing the Koreans not to expand to the international scene, which is something I would prefer to see - them recognizing there is shit worthwhile outside of Korea.
If you're going to allow Europeans to play, allow Koreans - that's how I view it.
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just seems like such a weak move to not invite the top koreans....... all that will do is make NASL a second rate tournament; a place where the first rate players are too good to participate. on the positive note the games will be more exciting than watching a series of predictable steamrolls. however, still second rate.
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Could you imagine the Premier league rejecting Messi under the pretext that he cannot speak English properly. It`s exactly the same level of absurdity.
IdrA couldnt speak Korean after 3 years being in the country, im not hearing Koreans crying about it (in fact, they probably should have). I`ve never heard a TLer noting that for a fact.
Ohlalalala.....
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Foreigners are welcome in the GSL, we should extend the same open door to Koreans. Excluding someone because they're good and from another country is silly, it's just that simple.
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If the NASL invites all the top koreans there would literally not be any point in watching it anymore: just watch the GSL where the top koreans play live and in studio.
Wasn't this supposed to be the biggest thing in western e-sports history?
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EPT
