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On March 16 2011 14:32 kellymilkies wrote:
Some of the posts in this threads make the Koreans sounds so hostile. They are not.
Yes there is language barrier. But while I was in Korea, they do try to talk to you if you talk to them. A lot of the Korean players are just shy to use English but they CAN speak English.
I don't know why language is an issue. How will it lower entertainment value? They don't cast their own games.
I'm sure if anything, it's good to have them play. The skill level difference NA and EU will improve as well in general to match up to how the Koreans play.
To be honest, even if you invite them they might not want to play as well, and some of them might just want focus on GSL.
Overall, if a "ban" was set on Korean players, I think it might be unfair because GSL welcomed foreigners.
NASL should definitely consider Koreans to play in it.
True that Kelly, i dont think there will be a ban on koreans, but i really dont think their should be a hard set limit on how many can enter either, although i dont think anyone wants to see an all korean tournament for the NASL it would be nice to see 10-15 top koreans fighting against the top players in north ameica and europe. The gsl is so nice about trying to include foreigners i think people forget this, just because most of the invitees didnt do well doesnt mean the gsl didnt try to include them, they let anyone qualify and even gave seeds to 4 foreigners into code a wich is extremely generous for a qualifications tournament.
Also the GSL world championships is coming up and half the players they are inviting are from all over the world outside of korea, they are doing really well at trying to integrate foreigners into the korean scene. Gom has done such a great job including foreigners and i think we should welcome Koreans to the NASL with open arms, Honestly its not goms fault if the non koreans they fight dont perform up to the standards of the gsl (three of them knocked out in the round of 32). When they get knocked out in the first round people seem to forget about them quite quickly.
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Invite the best of the best, even if it means most of them are Korean. A lot of people want to see the best players play high quality games regardless of the player or nationality. Would also look bad for the league if they banned or didn't invite players just because of their country. Also look at the bright side, the more Koreans there are, the more the foreigners will be motivated to practice and do better to achieve glory which in the end will result in the gap between Korea and the rest of the world to slowly close.
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On March 16 2011 15:21 GeorgeForeman wrote:
I want to see MVP get his face handed to him by some Western gamer. Or Fruit Dealer. Or NesTea. Or MC. Or whomever. And it will happen. One of 'em will get wrecked, at least once. There are 9 "divisional" matches before the playoffs even start, and if you think all of these guys are going 9-0, you're nuts. The underdog wins once in a while, and I for one LOVE rooting for underdogs. And I can't wait to do it once the NASL starts up.
Exactly. People want drama? They want to boost the morale of the Western E-sports scene? Imagine what would happen if White-ra managed to knock out MVP. Heck even if he only took a game off MVP foreigners would go nuts. As an American, I don't care for soccer but I was freakin stoked when the USA beat Spain and took a 2-0 lead over Brazil in the Confederations cup. It's the reason I bothered to watch the World Cup.
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On March 16 2011 15:33 underdawg wrote:
part of me wants NASL to decide to have some fucked up korean exclusion policy before the GSL korea v. the world thing, because some koreans are gonna be pissed. it'd be interesting to watch.
also, i don't get how people complain about GSL when they cater to foreigners as much as they can. free spots for foreigners. anyone who can go to korea can qualify (no lag that way). tasteless and artosis to cast. they do so because they want to grow e-sports, and thus to get more money. they are not mutually exclusive. for players to "grow e-sports," their job is to WIN.
i think some sort of cap is fine. but i'd rather see a total exclusion of koreans than only allowing korean b-teamers to play, because that would just be a complete mockery. there's a balance between allowing the foreigner scene to grow and having the best competition possible. probably the best thing is to have limits for each region so that they are all represented, but not exclude anyone specifically because they are too good.
as for drama, i think the whole boxer/foxer thing and his rise from being easily dismissed by tastosis (wtf? nukes? all-ins?) to a great player with his own distinctive style is way more interesting than some stupid reality show type story line. also the dancing zerglings lol. all things that don't require speaking any specific language...or anything besides just playing the damn game. lots of these supposed "interesting" players from NA/EU play completely standard/boring.
Yea it either needs to be an exclusive north american league(wich no one wants) or the caps have to be the same for each region outside of north america, so europe and korea would beable to take the same amount of players assuming that had that many players competing at the top level wich korea and europe would have enough to fill up the NASL on their own( thats not what im suggesting) but SEA on the other hand only has a few notable players so although the limits would be the same across all regions obviously only the very top players would be considered
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By not inviting Koreans you basically concede that foreigners will always be worse players. If Koreans and foreigners play together in more tournaments that would only mean better things for the foreigner skill level. And with pro houses starting to pop up in NA I think the skill gap is only going to get smaller. But if koreans and foreigners never play in the same league you basically say "ok we'll never be as good as you" just stay out of our bronze league tourney
i think NASL should really just have a qualifier like the GSL, as it stands right now it just a popularity contest which is going to screw over some really good people that deserve to be in it
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Also im sure tons of koreans will play in the Open and alot will make it through so those not in favor of it being a tournament with lots of koreans are gonna have to get used to the idea as im sure alot of koreans that werent invited wil make it through the open into the tournament i wouldnt be suprised if 10 of the 16 players that made it through were koreans, so get used to this idea people after three or four seasons i can imagine the tournament being close to half korean (wich is awesome in my opinion ! ) i cant wait until the unworthy invitees are weeded out and the NASL becomes a proper league, i think the best decision they made so far was to make 16 players from the open make it into the NASL (they said 1 originally imagine how terrible that would be lol)
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What is NASL? If its purpose is just to foster NA SC2... perhaps no foreigners should be invited. And by no foreigners, I mean any country not in North America. And if any foreigners are to be accepted, I would like to think there would be a fair representation of all countries not in North America. Biasing just against Korean players to me seems to make a mockery of the NASL itself. Only allowing certain lower A class players would be like rigging the competition.. is having Westerners win that important? Perhaps that is the necessary point for NASL as it is trying to stir up Western support and sponsorship. But if so... I'm disappointed as I have high hopes for Western e-sports and I don't think it should be a poor man's GSL or something.
And I personally find it ridiculous that people expect Koreans that compete in it to be those that are willing to be more in touch with Western culture and speak English.. or whatever the argument is. Is this expected of any other nationality? What is different about anyone else coming to NASL and the Koreans? Do Westerners come in with a different mindset, not set on winning the prize? Or the Chinese for that matter?
I wouldn't mind if actually spending time in North America was the standard requirement to compete. Like living in Korea for GSL, have living in NA a new movement for NASL. I would understand that and to me, that would make sense. But let's please not make arbitrary lines just to prevent good Korean people from playing.
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On March 16 2011 16:01 GhettoSheep wrote:
i think NASL should really just have a qualifier like the GSL, as it stands right now it just a popularity contest which is going to screw over some really good people that deserve to be in it
ive been saying this over and over but apparently thats how they want it, like i said in my post above wait until season 3 or 4 when alot of the best will have made it through the open tournament then we will really start to see some great games, its gonna be detremental to the league that they didnt decide to do it this way fromm the begining though as the quality of games will probably be much lower in the begining and as more players make it through the open the quality of games will slowly start to rise(and as players get more experienced of course) so hopefully it will all work itself out in a few seasons i just hope it doesnt flop before then because they chose to make the first season purely invitational instead of qualification based.
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We are trying to watch a competitive sport, where people try to be the best. As such, we should want to see the best play. Why would we sell ourselves short for Jersey Shore entertainment?
Seriously, let the competition do the entertainment...
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How about we wait and see who actually gets in the 50-man (or woman) league and then QQ about who got shafted.
This is sounding more and more like ESPN about the NCAA Tournament on which teams should've got invites and a chance to prove themselves.
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I can't believe how silly some of the people here can be.
"No Koreans, or limited Koreans"
It's like you think NA will catch up on their own. There is a reason players like Jinro/Idra are good, they played in Korea. If Korean players come to America and even if they take a huge majority of the scene up at first. American's will improve much faster because they will be able to play against better players.
Think about it, If you're a masters level are you going to improve much or at all vs a bronze player? Probably not, but the bronze player will start to improve quickly. This in no means is comparing NA Bronze to Koreans Masters.
Also, for all of those who watch football(and almost any other sport.), home team always has the advantage, aka comfort. Let the Koreans get into the NASL who aren't invited the same old way Non Koreans got into the GSL, compete for it. If they out class the NA players so be it. Players in NA will improve by a great deal with more koreans here.
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Well the basic idea is that koreans have their GSL. Yes, few of foreigns do play there but would there be more if they wuold have chance to go there?
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SC2 isn't ever going to be a global eSport, if you exclude Koreans because they are better, or you can watch them on GSL.
It's only going to further segregate and drive the Koreans vs The World status.
I want NASL to be successful, but I don't think cutting off arguably the worlds best players is a good idea ... it feels like it'll only create more of a that line and less of a unified world game.
As a punter, I like watching Starcraft 2 period. I'll tune into a European event just as religiously as I'll watch the GSL.
We've got a pretty fresh start with SC2, come ooown peeps. Can't we all just get along? =D
2 cents.
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I don't think the skill gap between koreans and foreigners is that big. any TSL participant can upset any of the top koreans, this is not SC1!
take Jinro as an example: he already 2:0'ed MC and at the same time had a hard time against top foreigners in foreigner's tournaments.
it is awesome to watch tyler vs fruitdealer, TLO vs Nada, Ret vs Nestea, Idra vs MVP, etc.
how can someone prefer to watch a tourney with foreigners only is beyond my understanding...
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On March 16 2011 16:09 Fuzer wrote:
Well the basic idea is that koreans have their GSL. Yes, few of foreigns do play there but would there be more if they wuold have chance to go there?
Alot of foreigners have tried and failed in the qualifiers of the GSL i think alot more than you realise just most of them dont make it through, the NASL is going to have an open league as well and if 16 out of the 16 players that make it through are korean more power to them!
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On March 16 2011 16:10 ilbh wrote:
I don't think the skill gap between koreans and foreigners is that big. any TSL participant can upset any of the top koreans, this is not SC1!
take Jinro as an example: he already 2:0'ed MC and at the same time had a hard time against top foreigners in foreigner's tournaments.
it is awesome to watch tyler vs fruitdealer, TLO vs Nada, Ret vs Nestea, Idra vs MVP, etc.
how can someone prefer to watch a tourney with foreigners only is beyond my understanding...
Jinro is pretty much considered korean at this point though, hes in the same practice environment as koreans its not that koreans are naturally better it is their practice environment that make them better.
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I see a lot of people claiming that the Koreans have their own tournament: GSL. But thats false. They have an open tournament that actually favours foreigners: 5 code A seeds to foreign pro's + any other foreigner can qualify through normal means like the Koreans do.
If it takes more of a commitment to participate in GSL than NASL should be irrelevant in my opinion. GSL is offline while NASL is online (except for the finals). Should we limit the number of Koreans because its easier for them to participate in the western tournament than it is for western players to participate in the eastern one? (thats what a lot of arguments here look like for me at least). I thought the whole point of the online format of NASL was to make it logistically easier to create a large international tournament. I have watched all the NASL application vods and many of the foreigner pro's actually want to see the Koreans participate... And I can understand that. Its more accessible for mostly any pro player. And if they succeed while testing their skills against the very best they can count themselves as the very top tier in SC2. If just 5 code A players get invited they will never reach the status of top tier.
Some people prefer to watch games with players from their own country/region and thats not something you can argue against. Its a personal preference. But what makes the world cup so exciting (even for people that doesnt even watch football/soccer normally) is that it gathers so many nations and players and set them up against each other. So when it comes to an invitational like this, I think creating a relatively even split between regions (depending on pro player base) would be the only "fair" option, and it would also create a lot of hype. Setting hard caps on players from 1 certain region is something I personally view as awkward (as stated, just my personal opinion).
I am pretty sure Korean participation will help in the hype/drama/narrative aspect of the tournament also. For top players in NA (Like pokebunny), koreans might not feel like part of the community, but for an average joe like me oGsMC is more of a personality with his bold statements, than most top NA/EU players. If they can't speak English well is a non issue for me when it comes to narrative. The Reddit invitational that Incontrol used as an example of good narrative (I think it was Incontrol), used production material that had very little input from the players themselves. And besides from that I think very few here has a problem with reading sub titles when it comes to player interviews. I don't think koreans will be boring at all. Just look at the group pickings from the ongoing GSL. Lots of rivalries there, especially with IdrA... a foreigner.
Those are my thoughts on the matter at least...
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IMO, the fact that Koreans would have to travel to North America even to attempt to compete negates the possibility of Koreans dominating the NASL. At first, at least.
If the Koreans do eventually begin to dominate the NASL, then that's okay. Koreans are no different from Americans, Europeans, and Canadians and we shouldn't be restricting them from competing based on nationality. If they have the courage to go to America and play Starcraft 2 (insert parallel to Jinro here) then they should have the chance to clean up the NASL.
TL;DR: If the best players, period, are allowed into the NASL, Koreans will do well. But having a large tournament like NASL centered in North America gives other nationalities a 'fair' advantage that will increase the chance of a more globally competitive SC2 scene.
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I find it funny that some NA players think that they are more marketable than Koreans simply because they are "white" and can speak English. Pretty sure people watch to see the best players, not ones who are inferior and rather have an exclusion league rather than practicing harder.
I would totally cheer for these awesome players with amazing attitudes and xenophobic tendency that are the best in NA because better players weren't invited.
I cheer for Naniwa though even if he had a bm past. At least hes not scared to be challenged in a COMPETITIVE league (hi pokebunny and blur, your amazing posts make me cringe)
Having koreans here hopefully will wake these players up and either 1/ make them practice harder or 2/ make them realize maybe sc2 is not the career for them with that mindset.
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On March 16 2011 16:14 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 16:10 ilbh wrote:
I don't think the skill gap between koreans and foreigners is that big. any TSL participant can upset any of the top koreans, this is not SC1!
take Jinro as an example: he already 2:0'ed MC and at the same time had a hard time against top foreigners in foreigner's tournaments.
it is awesome to watch tyler vs fruitdealer, TLO vs Nada, Ret vs Nestea, Idra vs MVP, etc.
how can someone prefer to watch a tourney with foreigners only is beyond my understanding... Jinro is pretty much considered korean at this point though, hes in the same practice environment as koreans its not that koreans are naturally better it is their practice environment that make them better.
so, he is the "korean" with most games played against foreigners and if you followed his results against foreigners you can see that any TSL participant can upset any korean.
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EPT
