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On March 16 2011 15:48 dredd276 wrote:
If the NASL invites all the top koreans there would literally not be any point in watching it anymore: just watch the GSL where the top koreans play live and in studio.
Wasn't this supposed to be the biggest thing in western e-sports history?
I don't think they are going to invite all the top Koreans. One I don't think all will apply because of how big of a constraint GSL is. Two they were originally talking about limiting the Koreans, even suggested having a cap on them.
To me it seems that they want some of the top Koreans in the world to come in and play. I'd say they invite around 10 and I think that is a good number. You can't have a league that is overrun with Koreans because it won't be as interesting for people in the West. But we also like to see the best of the best. So it is necessary to bring in some Koreans. I strongly believe that the NA/EU players will do well against the Koreans in the NASL. A tournament like IEM isn't the best judgement because of how the process worked which Day9 touched on in SoTG.
The NASL is the first of its kind in the west. Its not just a tournament. It's a league. Its multiple games against multiple opponents over an extended period of time. This leaves everyone room for improvement as the season goes on. Playing against Koreans is only going to make everyone better. I think this will start to make team houses more popular as teams will be more motivated to live together.
This is just the start. Its not going to be perfect right off the bat. Its unrealistic to ask for it to be. It may be dominated by the Korean players at first too. Thats what it may take to get western teams to get better. Look at Team Liquid. When it comes to SC2 they weren't extremely special players. They were great foreigners. But before Jinro made his run, did you really see him being a guy that would get to the top 4 twice in the premier sc2 tourny? Its the competition in Korea that made him become the great player he is, along with his hard work of course.
You cannot recreate the competition that Korea has or the level that they play on here without invited the best Koreans to play in the NASL. Without them the west will never be what Korea is. You can't have too many as NA/EU players need to experience the competition first hand. So you bring some top Koreans, around 10 maybe a little bit more, so the scene can become closer to the one in Korea and eventually the scene can be completely global.
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Well, wouldn't the decision to go to and compete in the NASL ultimately rest in the hands of players, team management, and sponsors?
If they think it would be wise for them to send guys like MC, MVP, NesTea etc. (basically the top 16 of code S, for example) then maybe they'd try to work something out and give it a shot. But I would think that there would be some "logistical" concerns they'd have to deal with. Simply put, I don't think they can just decide among themselves that they want to send a contingent of their players just because of the huge prize pool.
Regardless, wouldn't they have the GSL to worry about? Also, I do think their players also might want to be part in developing their scene there since SC2 still isn't THAT huge in Korea. I would think they'd stay for the time being rather than be perceived as jumping ship because all they have is GSL and it really isn't blowing up for them like they'd hope.
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I think it's hilarious for american peeps to say stuff like "OMG KOREANS.. THEY CANT SPEAK ENGLISH" while pretty much EVERY white guy can only speak english.. my self included.
here in LA it goes like this :
white kid > english only
chinese/korean/otherasian > speak another language because their parents do
south america > speak another language because their parents do
pretty funny considering we are one of the biggest countries in the world.. and we basically don't speak a second language.
the fact that most of them can't speak a good english doesn't have to be an obstacle for their presence in NASL
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If only Koreans with ties to the foreign community were invited, MC should be invited too. He does his interviews in english, he is learning english and he is a baller.
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On March 16 2011 16:17 baoluvboa wrote:
I find it funny that some NA players think that they are more marketable than Koreans simply because they are "white" and can speak English. Pretty sure people watch to see the best players, not ones who are inferior and rather have an exclusion league rather than practicing harder.
I would totally cheer for these awesome players with amazing attitudes and xenophobic tendency that are the best in NA because better players weren't invited.
I cheer for Naniwa though even if he had a bm past. At least hes not scared to be challenged in a COMPETITIVE league (hi pokebunny and blur, your amazing posts make me cringe)
Having koreans here hopefully will wake these players up and either 1/ make them practice harder or 2/ make them realize maybe sc2 is not the career for them with that mindset.
Plus by inviting Koreans it opens up the who Korean market. I'm pretty sure that people in Korea don't watch foreign tournaments. I would be like Europeans watching the MLS. But by adding some Koreans to the NASL, well guess who is tuning in? Korea. It's kinda a big market for eSports.
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On March 16 2011 16:18 ilbh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 16:14 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 16:10 ilbh wrote:
I don't think the skill gap between koreans and foreigners is that big. any TSL participant can upset any of the top koreans, this is not SC1!
take Jinro as an example: he already 2:0'ed MC and at the same time had a hard time against top foreigners in foreigner's tournaments.
it is awesome to watch tyler vs fruitdealer, TLO vs Nada, Ret vs Nestea, Idra vs MVP, etc.
how can someone prefer to watch a tourney with foreigners only is beyond my understanding... Jinro is pretty much considered korean at this point though, hes in the same practice environment as koreans its not that koreans are naturally better it is their practice environment that make them better. so, he is the "korean" with most games played against foreigners and if you followed his results against foreigners you can see that any TSL participant can upset any korean.
yea i agree, Tyler took him out pretty handily at pax east, im not saying koreans will completely dominate neccesarily im just saying that their practice environment perpares them alot better than most north american players have access to.
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On March 16 2011 16:23 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 16:17 baoluvboa wrote:
I find it funny that some NA players think that they are more marketable than Koreans simply because they are "white" and can speak English. Pretty sure people watch to see the best players, not ones who are inferior and rather have an exclusion league rather than practicing harder.
I would totally cheer for these awesome players with amazing attitudes and xenophobic tendency that are the best in NA because better players weren't invited.
I cheer for Naniwa though even if he had a bm past. At least hes not scared to be challenged in a COMPETITIVE league (hi pokebunny and blur, your amazing posts make me cringe)
Having koreans here hopefully will wake these players up and either 1/ make them practice harder or 2/ make them realize maybe sc2 is not the career for them with that mindset. Plus by inviting Koreans it opens up the who Korean market. I'm pretty sure that people in Korea don't watch foreign tournaments. I would be like Europeans watching the MLS. But by adding some Koreans to the NASL, well guess who is tuning in? Korea. It's kinda a big market for eSports.
The biggest in fact :D if some korean esports heroes joined the NASL you could bet your buttons the viewership from korea would drastically increase overall viewership of the NASL
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This is going to be such a difficult decision for the organizers :D Good luck NASL!!
Personally I want a nice mix of top Koreans and foreigners. I'm nearly 100% sure that there will be a limit on the Korean invites, it's not going to be 50 out of 50 players as Korean or 49/50 Korean with IdrA as the token foreigner, that's not what will NASL will want I'm fairly sure.
So yeh, how they find that balance for their invitees will be fascinating to see. I'd be very surprised if there's more than 10-15 Koreans playing in this first tournament.
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On March 16 2011 16:25 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 16:23 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 16 2011 16:17 baoluvboa wrote:
I find it funny that some NA players think that they are more marketable than Koreans simply because they are "white" and can speak English. Pretty sure people watch to see the best players, not ones who are inferior and rather have an exclusion league rather than practicing harder.
I would totally cheer for these awesome players with amazing attitudes and xenophobic tendency that are the best in NA because better players weren't invited.
I cheer for Naniwa though even if he had a bm past. At least hes not scared to be challenged in a COMPETITIVE league (hi pokebunny and blur, your amazing posts make me cringe)
Having koreans here hopefully will wake these players up and either 1/ make them practice harder or 2/ make them realize maybe sc2 is not the career for them with that mindset. Plus by inviting Koreans it opens up the who Korean market. I'm pretty sure that people in Korea don't watch foreign tournaments. I would be like Europeans watching the MLS. But by adding some Koreans to the NASL, well guess who is tuning in? Korea. It's kinda a big market for eSports. The biggest in fact :D if some korean esports heroes joined the NASL you could bet your buttons the viewership from korea would drastically increase overall viewership of the NASL
Yea, as long as its not the limited to 5 koreans so that more NA players can get in like Blur and Pokebunny. I would rather watch random diamond players with no team in the NASL than those two after seeing their posts.
Good number would be 20 NA/15 Euros/15 Koreans. That should be fair to both sides of the argument.
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On March 16 2011 16:18 probablywrong wrote:
Well, wouldn't the decision to go to and compete in the NASL ultimately rest in the hands of players, team management, and sponsors?
If they think it would be wise for them to send guys like MC, MVP, NesTea etc. (basically the top 16 of code S, for example) then maybe they'd try to work something out and give it a shot. But I would think that there would be some "logistical" concerns they'd have to deal with. Simply put, I don't think they can just decide among themselves that they want to send a contingent of their players just because of the huge prize pool.
Regardless, wouldn't they have the GSL to worry about? Also, I do think their players also might want to be part in developing their scene there since SC2 still isn't THAT huge in Korea. I would think they'd stay for the time being rather than be perceived as jumping ship because all they have is GSL and it really isn't blowing up for them like they'd hope.
GSL is expanding quite quickly just this season Code s got put on a cable television station and they have aquired new sponsors new booths and a pop group as well (secret) :D
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On March 16 2011 16:28 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 16:25 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 16:23 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 16 2011 16:17 baoluvboa wrote:
I find it funny that some NA players think that they are more marketable than Koreans simply because they are "white" and can speak English. Pretty sure people watch to see the best players, not ones who are inferior and rather have an exclusion league rather than practicing harder.
I would totally cheer for these awesome players with amazing attitudes and xenophobic tendency that are the best in NA because better players weren't invited.
I cheer for Naniwa though even if he had a bm past. At least hes not scared to be challenged in a COMPETITIVE league (hi pokebunny and blur, your amazing posts make me cringe)
Having koreans here hopefully will wake these players up and either 1/ make them practice harder or 2/ make them realize maybe sc2 is not the career for them with that mindset. Plus by inviting Koreans it opens up the who Korean market. I'm pretty sure that people in Korea don't watch foreign tournaments. I would be like Europeans watching the MLS. But by adding some Koreans to the NASL, well guess who is tuning in? Korea. It's kinda a big market for eSports. The biggest in fact :D if some korean esports heroes joined the NASL you could bet your buttons the viewership from korea would drastically increase overall viewership of the NASL Yea, as long as its not the limited to 5 koreans so that more NA players can get in like Blur and Pokebunny. I would rather watch random diamond players with no team in the NASL than those two after seeing their posts. Good number would be 20 NA/15 Euros/15 Koreans. That should be fair to both sides of the argument.
Yea those numbers seem perfect, and i agree players like Pokebunny made some pretty embarassing comments and i dont think he is anywhere near close to NASL quality even if no koreans were invited so i dont even know why hes complaining lol. Even incontrol (i think hes great btw) i dont think he deserves a spot over some of the top korean or EU players maybe if it was just NA but we know that its not and hes already so busy with commentation and being the "figurehead" of the NASL i dont know how people can take him seriously as a pro gamer with so much else going on. He should either commit himself to the pro gamer side of the NASL or the commentator management side, i do however expect him to be in the first season ( it seems unfair that he would get an auto invite but i bet he will) and i dont really expect him to do well.(prove me wrong incontrol)
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If the goal of the people organizing the NASL is to promote sponsorship of NA players and teams, then I think they should restrict participation to players who are living in NA or sponsored by a team based in NA. If the goal is to promote SC2 as an esport, then the goal would be to attract the highest quality players available without worrying about where they come from. Personally I think there is enough support (both in terms of numbers of people as well as cash flow) for SC2 in NA that the NASL could be profitable without participation from Korean (re: living in Korea) pro gamers even if the level of play is not as high as in the GSL.
Will the NASL benefit from including GSL participants? Yes
Does the NASL need to include GSL participants to succeed? No
Personally I think that it would be to the benefit of the NASL to exclude players in the GSL from participating in the NASL if it wants to establish itself as a starcraft league in the United States. As has been brought up before, people support teams based on locality regardless of skill level (premier league soccer would be a good example). I don't want GSL in the United States, I want an NASL that has it's own personalities and storylines, otherwise I will gradually just drift back over to watching GSL because the general skill level will be higher.
*edit - Note that excluding GSL participants from the NASL does not exclude the participation of Koreans and Europeans from the NASL, the goal is not to exclude anyone based on region, but to make the NASL distinct from the GSL
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On March 16 2011 16:28 AxionSteel wrote:
This is going to be such a difficult decision for the organizers :D Good luck NASL!!
Personally I want a nice mix of top Koreans and foreigners. I'm nearly 100% sure that there will be a limit on the Korean invites, it's not going to be 50 out of 50 players as Korean or 49/50 Korean with IdrA as the token foreigner, that's not what will NASL will want I'm fairly sure.
So yeh, how they find that balance for their invitees will be fascinating to see. I'd be very surprised if there's more than 10-15 Koreans playing in this first tournament.
10-15 koreans is totally reasonable i dont think anyone is expecting/ wanting anymore than that.
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Restricting players to participate in a tournament based on where they are from is ridiculous.
GOM has done a lot to accommodate foreigners who participate in the GSL and thanks to the foreign seed Huk recieved he is now in code S which he may or may not have been able to achieve without the seed. GOM has established a foreigner house and their representatives are doing their absolute best to make sure the foreigners who wants to play in their tournament are well provided.
I think the NASL should try to return this service to the koreans who wants to play in their league.
GOM has never said "NO!! TOO MANY FOREIGNERS!!!!!!!!!!" and I think its retarded for a starleague to completely disregard top players in the world just because they happen to be koreans.
I can understand if the NASL wants to have their own identity, and having a bunch of europeans and americans getting roflstomped by koreans may not fit in to the identity NASL wants to achieve as a tournament.
Invites to the tournament should be based on the best of the best(and Artosis!!!!), not just people who are pretty good.
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On March 16 2011 16:36 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 16:28 AxionSteel wrote:
This is going to be such a difficult decision for the organizers :D Good luck NASL!!
Personally I want a nice mix of top Koreans and foreigners. I'm nearly 100% sure that there will be a limit on the Korean invites, it's not going to be 50 out of 50 players as Korean or 49/50 Korean with IdrA as the token foreigner, that's not what will NASL will want I'm fairly sure.
So yeh, how they find that balance for their invitees will be fascinating to see. I'd be very surprised if there's more than 10-15 Koreans playing in this first tournament. 10-15 koreans is totally reasonable i dont think anyone is expecting/ wanting anymore than that.
Agreed. The people that are unhappy with or without Koreans are really just being unreasonable.
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On March 16 2011 16:35 Excomm wrote:
If the goal of the people organizing the NASL is to promote sponsorship of NA players and teams, then I think they should restrict participation to players who are living in NA or sponsored by a team based in NA. If the goal is to promote SC2 as an esport, then the goal would be to attract the highest quality players available without worrying about where they come from. Personally I think there is enough support (both in terms of numbers of people as well as cash flow) for SC2 in NA that the NASL could be profitable without participation from Korean (re: living in Korea) pro gamers even if the level of play is not as high as in the GSL.
Will the NASL benefit from including GSL participants? Yes
Does the NASL need to include GSL participants to succeed? No
Personally I think that it would be to the benefit of the NASL to exclude players in the GSL from participating in the NASL if it wants to establish itself as a starcraft league in the United States. As has been brought up before, people support teams based on locality regardless of skill level (premier league soccer would be a good example). I don't want GSL in the United States, I want an NASL that has it's own personalities and storylines, otherwise I will gradually just drift back over to watching GSL because the general skill level will be higher.
I think most people just want to see the highest quality players playing the best possible games, a vocal majority seems to think this way over the almost 60 pages in this thread. No one is saying it has to be GSL in the united states but as ive stated previously even without any korean invites they will penetrate into the league anyways, the open tournament is just that open i dont think it will discriminate based on nationality and lots of top korean players that participate will make it through so even if you dont want to see koreans in the tournament they will be there! 
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Play with the best, or be bad like the rest.
If IdrA and Jinro can tango and go toe to toe with Koreans, others can too. It's silly to enforce a rule of "no koreanz plx" just because it means they might win: if they win, they bloody deserve it.
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On March 16 2011 16:35 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 16:28 baoluvboa wrote:On March 16 2011 16:25 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 16:23 jmbthirteen wrote:On March 16 2011 16:17 baoluvboa wrote:
I find it funny that some NA players think that they are more marketable than Koreans simply because they are "white" and can speak English. Pretty sure people watch to see the best players, not ones who are inferior and rather have an exclusion league rather than practicing harder.
I would totally cheer for these awesome players with amazing attitudes and xenophobic tendency that are the best in NA because better players weren't invited.
I cheer for Naniwa though even if he had a bm past. At least hes not scared to be challenged in a COMPETITIVE league (hi pokebunny and blur, your amazing posts make me cringe)
Having koreans here hopefully will wake these players up and either 1/ make them practice harder or 2/ make them realize maybe sc2 is not the career for them with that mindset. Plus by inviting Koreans it opens up the who Korean market. I'm pretty sure that people in Korea don't watch foreign tournaments. I would be like Europeans watching the MLS. But by adding some Koreans to the NASL, well guess who is tuning in? Korea. It's kinda a big market for eSports. The biggest in fact :D if some korean esports heroes joined the NASL you could bet your buttons the viewership from korea would drastically increase overall viewership of the NASL Yea, as long as its not the limited to 5 koreans so that more NA players can get in like Blur and Pokebunny. I would rather watch random diamond players with no team in the NASL than those two after seeing their posts. Good number would be 20 NA/15 Euros/15 Koreans. That should be fair to both sides of the argument. Yea those numbers seem perfect, and i agree players like Pokebunny made some pretty embarassing comments and i dont think he is anywhere near close to NASL quality even if no koreans were invited so i dont even know why hes complaining lol. Even incontrol (i think hes great btw) i dont think he deserves a spot over some of the top korean or EU players maybe if it was just NA but we know that its not and hes already so busy with commentation and being the "figurehead" of the NASL i dont know how people can take him seriously as a pro gamer with so much else going on. He should either commit himself to the pro gamer side of the NASL or the commentator management side, i do however expect him to be in the first season ( it seems unfair that he would get an auto invite but i bet he will) and i dont really expect him to do well.(prove me wrong incontrol)
Yea I feel the same way. A lot of NA pro players treat sc2 as more of a social medium and popularity contest rather than a competitive sport/job. Incontrol imo is in this category. He is in EG but hasnt really shown any results so far but he is one of the most well known for his personality/humors (a bit controversial and insensitive at times but he improved lately) I don't mind him getting a spot first season but I expect him to lose pretty badly versus other top players.
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This applies to pretty much any other thread, but it's depressing to see, page after page, some people completely ignoring certain points.
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On March 16 2011 16:35 Excomm wrote:
Personally I think that it would be to the benefit of the NASL to exclude players in the GSL from participating in the NASL if it wants to establish itself as a starcraft league in the United States. As has been brought up before, people support teams based on locality regardless of skill level (premier league soccer would be a good example). I don't want GSL in the United States, I want an NASL that has it's own personalities and storylines, otherwise I will gradually just drift back over to watching GSL because the general skill level will be higher.
No, it would not succeed. It would be the lowest level league of the large ones. GSL, IEM, MLG. Yes, people like watching players from their region. But a lot more prefer watching players from their region play against players from other regions. Like the world cup, and even premier league. Its your team against another team. And it would not end up like GSL in the US... logistically it is so much easier to have top tier players from all over the world with NASL's format. How many pro's like WhiteRa and Sjow etc haven't said they would have liked to go to GSL, but decided not to because of the logistical difficulty of attending an offline tournament for that long? NASL can become what GSL can't.
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EPT
