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On March 16 2011 11:41 Peas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:38 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 11:37 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 11:33 Nayl wrote: Idiots constantly claiming what simply isn't going to be true. MANY people are making the argument that the NASL should be for the best of the best. No if, ands, or buts. That comic was for them. Now shhhh Oh, so now your arguments are supposed to prove a point, but are for "fun" when people refute the point made in them? Make up your mind and stop putting down people who disagree with you. You are officialy dumb as a rock, congradulations. Noone has refuted the point made in my comic. I was saying that it was directed at the people who claim the NASL should chose only the best of the best. Now please...go read a book or something
Calling someone dumb as a rock and telling them to go read a book whilst spelling congratulations incorrectly in the post.
These are facts.
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On March 16 2011 11:36 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:28 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 11:10 bLuR wrote: The poll is outrageous, inviting the best koreans "even if it means having few na/eu players" completely destroys the purpose of the NASL. GSL is for all the top koreans, Invite a select few to raise the skill cap of the NASL while advancing esports outside of korea by actually having NA/EU players playing, and being able to show off their skill. So you're saying that Korean players are incapable of contributing to Western E-sports? So you're saying that if you were a korean you would be trying to help western e-sports instead of Korean e-sports? Lets be realistic, every single foreigner would rather have foreigner e-sports grow instead of korean, if they had to make a choice.
You think people become professional athletes primarily because they want to 'help progress' the sport only in their native region?
Your thinking is reductive and poisonous, not to mention completely naive.
Sports grow in popularity because of their intrinsic value. What better way to showcase that value by having the best possible players compete?
Oh I know. Only white people who are pure in their intentions, who play not out of love for the game or for true competition but because they are the only ones who care about 'advancing e-sports.'
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On March 16 2011 11:31 echobong wrote: It's about as 'racist' as it is to let PEOPLE RESIDING IN KOREA (note: not "Koreans") not play as it is racist that the NY Knick's can't participate in the goddamn Western Conference. It's a NORTH AMERICAN StarLeague.
*I* say, don't let anyone that doesn't reside in North American play in the league. SIMPLE AS FUCKING THAT.
The Knicks play each Western Conference team at least twice a year. Your argument is invalid. It would be like saying that only Americans could play in the National(USA) Basketball Association.
The NASL claims to want the best players in the world to compete but since most of the best players don't actually look and sound like their target audience they want to skew the league to make sure most of them look and sound similar.
This is almost akin to the people who recently wanted to start a basketball league for all white men.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/22/whites-only-basketball-le_n_433275.html
I say let the best in the world play each other regardless of what they look or sound like. I think this type of defensive reaction is testament to you feeling a certain way about it though....
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On March 16 2011 11:42 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:31 echobong wrote: It's about as 'racist' as it is to let PEOPLE RESIDING IN KOREA (note: not "Koreans") not play as it is racist that the NY Knick's can't participate in the goddamn Western Conference. It's a NORTH AMERICAN StarLeague.
*I* say, don't let anyone that doesn't reside in North American play in the league. SIMPLE AS FUCKING THAT. Alright, so who would the 50 players be if you were going to invite players that only reside in NA? And do you really think people would care about such a tournament to begin with?
People that actually follow the community and not just GSL would love an NA tournament...
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On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea.
GSL stands for GLOBAL starcraft 2 league HERP derp
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On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Show nested quote +Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all failed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise.
Jinro's got it right on this one, Koreans, regardless of skill should be allowed to come to the tournament, if they really want it to be an International tournament that is. If they want it to be entirely, strictly for North America, then only NA players should be allowed in. They need to pick one, they can't have some constantly-changing grey area in the middle of what is and isn't a 'qualified foreign player'.
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On March 16 2011 11:41 Peas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:38 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 11:37 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 11:33 Nayl wrote: Idiots constantly claiming what simply isn't going to be true. MANY people are making the argument that the NASL should be for the best of the best. No if, ands, or buts. That comic was for them. Now shhhh Oh, so now your arguments are supposed to prove a point, but are for "fun" when people refute the point made in them? Make up your mind and stop putting down people who disagree with you. You are officialy dumb as a rock, congradulations. Noone has refuted the point made in my comic. I was saying that it was directed at the people who claim the NASL should chose only the best of the best. Now please...go read a book or something You're doing it again... I told you that your argument in the comment doesn't make sense, you told me it was a "joke" go back a page, you just did it. Calling me dumb isn't helping you at all. Telling me to read a book may make you feel better but it's not convincing me or anyone else here that a no korean tourney is better.
+ Show Spoiler +On March 16 2011 11:40 Zeri wrote: This thread of how many Koreans should be allowed into NASL has prompted some very important discussion that will decide how the esports culture grows in the West.
The argument essentially boils down to 2 different views: A) WE NEED TO EXCLUDE KOREANS (or a small cap at like 5) because we need Western gamers beating western gamers and westerners taking home the money. Then a western culture of training for NASL will arise, there will be more western interest - more money and this will allow us to have Western team pro houses and then we can finally be as good as Koreans. B) WE NEED TO INVITE PLENTY OF THE BEST KOREANS because this will foster consistent competition between western gamers and Korean gamers. And the more often they play together the better the western gamers will get. And with more consistent Korean appearances in the West, the esports culture in Korea will spill over to the West and it will be just as big.
Whichever mode is chosen by NASL will greatly influence on how an esports culture is created in the west.
The rationalization for excluding Koreans is that if they came and dominated the NASL, then everyone would just simply acknowledge that Korea is better and either go there to play professionally or quit because they can’t compete with what the Koreans have. And that it would be a better alternative for the NASL to strictly invite Westerners so that the money and fame stays in the west which will promote more sponsors and more money and hopefully American pro houses and then we can finally get as good as the Koreans.
The argument for inviting a bunch of Koreans is that even though they might all take out every single white guy, is that it will establish a culture where Koreans and westerners are playing eachother, and if NASL continues into more seasons, then they will establish a consistent environment for Koreans and westerns to play and practice together especially if NASL requires koreans to be here instead of online matches, then we have the possibility of Koreans coming to stay and play in American gaming houses (Even if only for a short time)
As you can see this is getting in a 'which came first, the chicken or the egg' type deal.
Do we get as good as the koreans and make esports big here? or do we make esports big here so that we can get as good as the koreans?
Here is how I see it: Our emphasis has to be on getting the top NA players as good as the top KR players first. And to do that, we go with B). We cannont emphasize creating a giant esports culture around being the not-best at starcraft. It won’t grow.
NASL has a brilliant opportunity here to make esports huge in the West, and I can see how a lot of people really want to see a westerner taking that money home. But what every western sc2 fan wants more than seeing a western guy take home that money, is an established esports culture much like there exists in Korea.
This is what NASL can do. They can either exclude Koreans for the most part, ensuring a westerner takes home some good money OR they can allow a bunch of top level Koreans come over and play. Establishing an environment where top westerns play against top Koreans, and finally allowing the Korean esports scene to spill over to the west.
I definitely agree. I don't see how you can think that Westerners can just play westerners, earn their money, and then suddenly play Koreans and be able to play them. If you think that more Americans=better players, then the fact that all the foreigners who went to Korea and said that even with the money they didn't want to practice like Koreans would prove you wrong.
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As a spectator, I would like to see entertaining games that are pushing the envelope of the game. Except for a very select few (far less than 50), I feel that foreigners are just now getting to the point where their mechanics can consistently pull off a 'standard' macro game where they already know how they 'should' react to what their opponent is doing based upon their standard strategy (in other words, where they don't have to really think and just have to go off a prescribed template).
However, whenever I watch Koreans play, I feel like their mechanics have advanced to the point where they actually can try to do crazy stuff without letting their money stockpile or getting supply blocked or forgetting to macro during a battle, knowing that it's backed with solid multitasking.
That's why I want Koreans to be in this tournament. I think that they have the potential to provide the best matches and use strategies that we haven't seen before.
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On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea.
And you need to come to Los Angeles to play the finals of the NASL.
Your point?
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On March 16 2011 11:41 Peas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:38 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 11:37 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 11:33 Nayl wrote: Idiots constantly claiming what simply isn't going to be true. MANY people are making the argument that the NASL should be for the best of the best. No if, ands, or buts. That comic was for them. Now shhhh Oh, so now your arguments are supposed to prove a point, but are for "fun" when people refute the point made in them? Make up your mind and stop putting down people who disagree with you. You are officialy dumb as a rock, congradulations. Noone has refuted the point made in my comic. I was saying that it was directed at the people who claim the NASL should chose only the best of the best. Now please...go read a book or something
You'd do well to spell words like "congratulations" correctly if you want to call others dumb.
Refute the point made in your comic? It's likely that no one has bothered because your comic is stupid and unrealistic. You think you're somehow clever because you turned some unsophisticated "argument" into a rage comic?
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On March 16 2011 11:40 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:38 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 11:35 Peas wrote:On March 16 2011 11:32 bLuR wrote:On March 16 2011 11:16 Zeke50100 wrote:On March 16 2011 11:10 bLuR wrote: The poll is outrageous, inviting the best koreans "even if it means having few na/eu players" completely destroys the purpose of the NASL. GSL is for all the top koreans, Invite a select few to raise the skill cap of the NASL while advancing esports outside of korea by actually having NA/EU players playing, and being able to show off their skill. GSL is for anybody, and NASL is for the best. What are you trying to accomplish by having WORSE players? Will people actually care if people show off their skill if they're only showing it off against relatively sub-par players? Honestly, the very idea that you would bar people just because of their ethnicity is ridiculous. Everybody would be destroyed by, say, Jinro, but that's okay because he's not Korean? The purpose of the NASL is not to completely shut out everybody so North America has its own private playground. It's to bring the top players to America, providing an opportunity for people to play in a prestigious tournament without traveling to Korea. If allowing Koreans would totally ruin the point of the North American Star League, what the hell would Europeans be doing in it? Check your own logic, unless you're implying that it should be the "NAEUSL" (probably pronounced "nasal"). You don't foster the growth of e-sports in "foreign" places by shutting everybody else out. You do it by bringing everybody else in. This wouldn't even be an argument if people weren't so engrossed in "racial differences", or associating skill by region. GSL is for anybody? ... GSL is for people who will move to KOREA for a CHANCE at QUALIFYING. NASL u can play from your home until Ro16, imagine if the GSL had this format, how many more foreigners would be playing? Everyone. The NASL is to promote foreigner esports, now im not saying "NO KOREANS" im saying it is for FOREIGNERS. Thats why it is called N A SL, we cant just say oh ya u guys are better than us come here for 2 days for the Ro16, take your money back to korea and we'll see you in 2 months. Im with you dood. Who in their right mind could think that an NASL with 40+ koreans would be a good thing? No one thinks that's going to happen. The people who say let the Koreans in think that there's going to be a mix; 50 Koreans haven't even applied. What you're arguing for is NO koreans, which isn't the same thing.
If someone thinks that will actually happen then they may be even more dumb than yuo.
For the 128541289123th time...lots of people have made the claim that NASL should be for the best of the best....regardless of what they think will happen. I am adressing those that make this argument. Now, there may be some who have not fully thought out the implications of making said argument, in which case they are free to reiterate what they actually mean.....I am not going to assume they mean one thing when they say another.
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On March 16 2011 11:44 MadCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea. GSL stands for GLOBAL starcraft 2 league HERP derp
Thats why the name of the league contradicts its rules...
HERP DERP
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On March 16 2011 10:53 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 10:47 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 10:36 motbob wrote: All this talk about race and xenophobia reminds me of when people bring up the subject of antisemitism whenever Israel's policies are criticized. Stop it. There is a real element of both. How else do you explain people describing Korean players as boring, homogeneous, and having and unfair advantage due to 'lack of real-life commitments'? How do you explain people who prefer watching 'white' players over Koreans despite the fact a player's ethnicity has no direct relationship with his play-style? The truth of the matter is that people aren't complaining about EU players being allowed in the NASL at all. If the consensus is that EU players are better than NA players, why aren't people levying the same complaint about them? That fact alone betrays their implicit admission of prejudice against Korean players. If this sentiment is the face of Western E-Sports, I want no part of it and wish it to fail. Does overwhelming bias in favor of players like Idra and Jinro when they play in GSL imply racism? People naturally get more excited about players that speak their language and interact with their community. It has nothing to do with racism.
The two issues are orthogonal.
Consolidate has a point-- Koreans are portrayed this way, this is racism.
Overwhelming bias in favour of players like idra and jinro is a lot more complex. There is a rich storyline there, they stand out more as 'foreigners' in korea and there is more interaction with this community, right, but arguing that they are more popular doesnt negate the discussion on racism.
Of course, talking about why idra and jinro are more popular also does not lead to the conclusion that koreans are less interesting either.
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On March 16 2011 11:45 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea. And you need to come to Los Angeles to play the finals of the NASL. Your point?
That if people could play the GSL online until Ro16 every foreigner would be playing it?
Think --> Post
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On March 16 2011 11:46 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:44 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea. GSL stands for GLOBAL starcraft 2 league HERP derp Thats why the name of the league contradicts its rules... HERP DERP
global as in terms of the people that play in it....
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On March 16 2011 11:44 MadCatZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea. GSL stands for GLOBAL starcraft 2 league HERP derp
it may be global but you have to LIVE in korea to participate which is a hefty requirement for any foreign player
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On March 16 2011 11:46 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:44 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea. GSL stands for GLOBAL starcraft 2 league HERP derp Thats why the name of the league contradicts its rules... HERP DERP
I wasn't aware there were rules disallowing foreigners from competing.
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On March 16 2011 11:47 Consolidate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:46 bLuR wrote:On March 16 2011 11:44 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea. GSL stands for GLOBAL starcraft 2 league HERP derp Thats why the name of the league contradicts its rules... HERP DERP I wasn't aware there were rules disallowing foreigners from competing.
The rule is that you have to be in korea to play? How difficult is that to understand
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On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea.
This is a dumb argument that's used over and over again. The tournament is physically held in Korea, but players from all over the world are permitted to come and compete at will. Any notable player would be able to find some sort of income or sponsorship to travel to Korea if they wanted and many have and failed. The GSL as it stands is the international proving grounds for SC2. If you want to play against the best in the world, that's where people go.
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On March 16 2011 11:47 mufin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 11:44 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 11:43 bLuR wrote:On March 16 2011 11:42 MadCatZ wrote:On March 16 2011 06:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Its retarded. Why do you think any of the non-koreans that went to GSL, went to GSL for? For the same fucking reason Koreans want to play NASL. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. While its not that untrue, how can we assume that from IEM when it was won by 3 players who all f.ailed round 1 of Code A? I mean, that wouldnt really qualify as top code A level to me evidence wise NASL=North American GSL=Global The name is SO misleading to be honest not like they call it KSL. They couldve named it WSL-western since its a focus on western E-sports The GSL isn't global its only for people in Korea. GSL stands for GLOBAL starcraft 2 league HERP derp it may be global but you have to LIVE in korea to participate which is a hefty requirement for any foreign player
It's less restrictive than not allowing you to play at all because of an arbitrary cap, no?
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