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Looky
United States1608 Posts
people seem to have a false understanding that if you only play amongst yourselves (NA/EU) they will eventually get better to play the koreans. No this will only widen the skill gap. having Koreans living here and practicing with our fellow foreigners will be nothing but good for the western scene. I'm sure if you ask them they will practice with you. THis isnt a tournament style league so you get to play abunch of games with these guys. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:36 nvs. wrote: lol of course you do, you'll attach yourself to any argument that even remotely supports your position. Did you not just say you changed your mind like one page ago? You're so annoying. -.- I changed my mind about one miniscule point involving a couple eastern european players. I agree with it because most of it is the basis of my argument. | ||
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RevRich
United States218 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:27 Subversion wrote: You people arguing that you only want the best and nothing else are all fucking hypocrites. I didn't see a single complaint thread over the TSL Korean invites. Why should Boxer be invited? He's certainly not the best - dude just got knocked into Code A. He was invited because he's BOXER, he's a big name, he's really famous, people want to see him play. In terms of raw skill, there are plenty of people more deserving. What about Haypro? He is a good player certainly, but in Korea has had extremely limited success. Even Ret to a certain extent. Why no complaints? Obviously he's from Liquid and its their tournament, but he's also a foreigner, and people want to see how our foreigners in Korea shape up to the Western competition. NASL is not just producing a tournament, they're producing an epic show. They want drama, rivalry, smack-talk and all other kinds of things which are ENTERTAINING to watch. Some of you may think that simply seeing the best of the best crushing every tournament and giving modest, translated and frankly boring interviews is entertaining, but a lot of people disagree. You need to remember that NASL is about expanding e-sports in the WEST, it's doing just fine in Korea already. If someone new to SC2 turns on NASL and sees people being crushed by Koreans and then giving a boring as hell interview in Korean, they probably won't really have their interest piqued. We want people to get involved, we want e-sports to grow, so we should also want NASL to be a helluva show to the casual player, and not just our elitist overinflated egos. Come on guys. Yes, yes, yes! We need to appeal to the average viewer (husky subscriber) not to the elitists who watch nothing but GSL and fondle themselves afterward with nerdy excitement. Your average viewer or potential viewer doesn't care about Korea or its players, they just wanna see great high quality starcraft games. Hell, most of them probably couldn't tell the difference between our players and koreans - they're casual. | ||
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Momildo
Brazil93 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:09 Rekrul wrote: I totally agree since it is invite they shouldn't completely stack the field with koreans. And yeah, since foreigners totally suck compared to koreans right now, invite is the best way for NASL to do it in terms of growing their business and gaining interest...but lets just hope the skill level of foreigners is one day near par with koreans so that normal tournaments can be held where everyone has an equal chance of qualifying. Supposedly everyone will be able to qualify for future seasons, so there you go. | ||
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FOUTWENTYSIXTY
89 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:36 Rekrul wrote: LOLLLL. If getting raped in a tournament by someone of superior skill demotivates you then you don't deserve to be playing in the first place. This is true Rekrul and everyone who plays starcraft knows the best way to improve is to lose. But audiences? Audiences want winners. Losers are losers, winners are winners that's what sport is. If no one can compete against Korea than its a Korean thing, so who cares if its in America. Players will understand the difference, viewers, non-players and casual players (so the vast majority) will turn off immediately. | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:36 Rekrul wrote: Jinro getting good has nothing to do with time invested. TBH pro sc2 players don't practice THAT much (except when a match is coming up), nothing compared to the time progamers invested in sc1. It's not like a korean pro sc2 teamhouse is some magical land where revelations are made and players are talking strategy all day long. esp for a foreigner like jinro (hard to communicate). the reason he's gotten so good is because he's a talented player with access to playing with talented players. You don't really need to be in the same house as someone to do this. Foreigners *should* be able to do this on their own if they are dedicated to eachother even online. and LOLLLL. If getting raped in a tournament by someone of superior skill demotivates you then you don't deserve to be playing in the first place. I love you for articulating my thoughts in a somewhat trollish way and getting away with it because you're Rekrul.  | ||
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Zeri
United States773 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:38 Peas wrote: One tournament isnt going to allow non koreans to play with koreans consistantly. Hello? The problem is way way way more fundamental. What we should be striving for is to create a culture and an infrastructure that supports foreign SC2 players, allowing them to play the game for a REAL living...as in korea. When this happens, NA/EUR players will be able to, and want to practice as the koreans do. /facepalm Yeah. We need to set up an infrastructure that supports top level pro SC2 in the West. Yes. That involves bringing in Koreans over here. If we have a tournament as good as GSL, then they will come here to play more often. the cultures will slowly merge. we aren't going to make our own esports culture without theirs. You are using NASL as a one time thing, to make my argument look dumb, then you are saying its a long term thing in yours. ..wha.... | ||
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pezit
Sweden302 Posts
There's never gonna be consensus on this though, some people want to watch the best play while others want to watch their local players, no one is more right than the other but i know i probably won't follow it if they start denying people entry because they're from the wrong part of the world. | ||
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Tyree
1508 Posts
NASL is not just producing a tournament, they're producing an epic show. They want drama, rivalry, smack-talk and all other kinds of things which are ENTERTAINING to watch. Then you are clearly watching esports for the wrong reasons, you can easily find 2 bm Gold players being "entertaining" while they throw 4chan memes at each other and "omg the Drama so entertaining". Alot of people here want the best players to compete, we have seen the MLG and the general quality of SC2 matches is simply not up to par, and the entire event is saved by a few talented players and Day9, Dj Wheat and JP saving the entire show. If the biggest reason to watch MLG SC2 is for the casters then something has gone wrong. Some of you may think that simply seeing the best of the best crushing every tournament and giving modest, translated and frankly boring interviews is entertaining, but a lot of people disagree I am not watching for drama, if i wanted drama ill watch Jersey Shore, Jerry Springer or some other stupid reality show, many of us here want to watch the best players play SC2 and try to stretch the games to its limits. NASL should not cater to the drama wrenches that invest this community who only want Idra to "ragequit" because it brings in the "lulz". WoW Arena was and still is infested with these kinds of people, and that "esport" never went anywhere, nobody wants to watch a bunch of 4chan rejects trash talk each other in the most banal and boring ways. "ur bad" "no ur bad bro" "lol wut?" "haahaha stupid bros" That is how their arena discussions look like Alot of us appriciate the actual game and the skill needed to succeed, anyone can act like a tough guy on the internet, infact you cant even visit one forum anywhere without a bunch of smart asses who think they are cool and edgy. How many people would watch NBA, if you pulled out 5 drunk/high thugs from the street and told them to play basketball, knives and baseball bats were allowed to make it more "exciting"? Nobody would watch that trash, people watch NBA to see the BEST. XFL tried to be "drama omg" with lots of tits and asses, high production value and other non football related stuff, nobody watched that garbage, it failed for obvious reasons. | ||
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MeatlessTaco
United States302 Posts
I say start with 50 foreigners and let the Koreans earn their place through tournaments like everyone else. I don't like the seeding of top Koreans in it initially. Regardless, is it talent or drama the league is going for? It can only choose the first 50, after that it will be up to the open tournaments and after a couple seasons talent will win out. If we start with 50 foreigners we can see how Artosis and the TL guys do and if they can keep up as the level of play increases as people get dropped out. So, I don't see it as too discriminatory if they just start with 50 non-Koreans and let the talent decide from there. | ||
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DystopiaX
United States16236 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:42 FOUTWENTYSIXTY wrote: This is true Rekrul and everyone who plays starcraft knows the best way to improve is to lose. But audiences? Audiences want winners. Losers are losers, winners are winners that's what sport is. If no one can compete against Korea than its a Korean thing, so who cares if its in America. Players will understand the difference, viewers, non-players and casual players (so the vast majority) will turn off immediately. Again, someone explain to me why they think that the casual viewer will only care if the players can speak English. The smacktalking isn't what's going to get people interested, it's the actual play. You're not going to get your average, non gameplaying person to watch starcraft based on smacktalk, they don't know what's going on and they don't care. If you want to get the average SC player or gamer in general to play, it's going to be the amazing play that gets them hooked, not the fact that idra said someone was bad. | ||
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huameng
United States1133 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:42 RevRich wrote: Yes, yes, yes! We need to appeal to the average viewer (husky subscriber) not to the elitists who watch nothing but GSL and fondle themselves afterward with nerdy excitement. Your average viewer or potential viewer doesn't care about Korea or its players, they just wanna see great high quality starcraft games. Hell, most of them probably couldn't tell the difference between our players and koreans - they're casual. Isn't the whole point of your argument that the average viewer wants to see more than "great high quality starcraft games"? If you want to make the best games, you invite the best players, I think everyone can agree on this. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:43 hmunkey wrote: I love you for articulating my thoughts in a somewhat trollish way and getting away with it because you're Rekrul. Rekrul has expressed good points better than 99% of people in this thread: by being pretty objective and not being biased for/against anyone. | ||
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Ves
United States27 Posts
So what would it have to be in order to be "global"? Do you think world governments are suddenly going to start regional Starcraft tournaments and send national representatives or something? The GSL is about as global as any Starcraft tournament is going to get. This isn't the Olympics. This is a video game... NASL is looking to provide the infrastructure for players in the west. I think that's its most important purpose which is what a few have put more eloquently than I. That is it's purpose and I think it should be allowed to do so. Having all the prize money go back to Korea will not provide that infrastructure, that awareness, to grow in the foreign scene. I'm not saying the koreans are unbeatable. But, I think it's fair to say that at least some of that very sizable prize pool would be going back to Korea if Nestea and MVP are playing. | ||
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Kazeyonoma
United States2912 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:42 mufin wrote: If a good number of invites go to koreans, then its going to be up to the NA/EU players to put in the hard work to keep up with them. If they can't keep up, then the casual viewers (majority) aren't going to stick around to watch their hometown superheroes get clobbered over and over again. Then maybe it's up to the NA/EU players to step up their game and actually BE the hometown superhero and not the hometown scrub. (no offense to NA/EU players, i love a lot of you, just clarifying how this view is stupid) | ||
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PetRockSteve
United States70 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:32 SilverJohnny wrote: 35+ koreans wouldn't accept their invites. I doubt all of Code S is going to just quit to come play in some American league. Why would they need to quit because they need to prepare for one more game a week? | ||
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MuTT
United States398 Posts
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LegendaryZ
United States1583 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:46 Ves wrote: NASL is looking to provide the infrastructure for players in the west. I think that's its most important purpose which is what a few have put more eloquently than I. That is it's purpose and I think it should be allowed to do so. Having all the prize money go back to Korea will not provide that infrastructure, that awareness, to grow in the foreign scene. I'm not saying the koreans are unbeatable. But, I think it's fair to say that at least some of that very sizable prize pool would be going back to Korea if Nestea and MVP are playing. Well why would this be any worse than a portion of that prize pool going to Germany or Sweden? | ||
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rift
1819 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:27 Subversion wrote: You people arguing that you only want the best and nothing else are all fucking hypocrites. I didn't see a single complaint thread over the TSL Korean invites. Why should Boxer be invited? He's certainly not the best - dude just got knocked into Code A. He was invited because he's BOXER, he's a big name, he's really famous, people want to see him play. In terms of raw skill, there are plenty of people more deserving. What about Haypro? He is a good player certainly, but in Korea has had extremely limited success. Even Ret to a certain extent. Why no complaints? Obviously he's from Liquid and its their tournament, but he's also a foreigner, and people want to see how our foreigners in Korea shape up to the Western competition. NASL is not just producing a tournament, they're producing an epic show. They want drama, rivalry, smack-talk and all other kinds of things which are ENTERTAINING to watch. Some of you may think that simply seeing the best of the best crushing every tournament and giving modest, translated and frankly boring interviews is entertaining, but a lot of people disagree. You need to remember that NASL is about expanding e-sports in the WEST, it's doing just fine in Korea already. If someone new to SC2 turns on NASL and sees people being crushed by Koreans and then giving a boring as hell interview in Korean, they probably won't really have their interest piqued. We want people to get involved, we want e-sports to grow, so we should also want NASL to be a helluva show to the casual player, and not just our elitist overinflated egos. Come on guys. I'd like to drop some truthbombs on these statements if I may. 1. NASL is not the TSL. The TSL is produced by Team Liquid, for Team Liquid and its community. It comes around once a year and is special because it is exactly what we want. They can be biased, choosing their own players, choosing players based on popularity, etc. The NASL not only purports to have the best players in the world, but is an unaffiliated organization that should be unbiased when choosing its participants. 2. StarCraft II is doing better in the West than it is in Korea. Brood War still reigns supreme there. GSL may seem big but it is essentially the only major SC2 tournament in Korea and the players there are itching to play in anything they can. Outside of Korea, there are hundreds of tournaments with a lot, A LOT of prize money. Despite this, the skill level is higher in Korea for the many reasons that any StarCraft-educated person can tell you. 3. Koreans aren't boring as hell, that's a flat-out insult and complete bullshit to boot. They haven't been given the CHANCE to express themselves to us as an audience. The GSL interviews are rubbish. I was more engaged by Startale's applications than most of the non-Koreans', and I expect more interesting personalities to come out if teams like oGs and IM participate, which you seem so concerned with. It will be not only an interesting contrast to Western players, but we can see the inter-team dynamics and a better look into their lives--which are much different than the many of "pros" playing from home, with school or a primary job taking up their time. Also I saw so many applications from Westerners wherein the player did nothing of note other than speak to the camera monotonously listing their accomplishments, and sometimes in poor English, which seems to be a common complaint regarding Koreans. Summary? StarCraft players are often boring. Yes, some have entertaining personalities. But we have to give them the chance to express themselves better regardless of their nationality. Ultimately, it is their games and their skill we care about. If you want inter-gamer drama go watch WCG Ultimate Gamer. | ||
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crms
United States11933 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:37 I_Love_Bacon wrote: Can we drop this ridiculous line? Seriously, anytime people make a claim to be the best of the best, it always has restrictions on it. The world's best SC2 player might be in his basement and only playing against the computer... Is it the tournament's job to find him and expose him to the world? The tournament's job is to find the best player in their tournament (one could argue tournament don't even do that) under their rules and structure. Saying the best in the world and all of that is hype, and people need to take it with a grain of salt. you're missing the point. of course it's hype and it's almost impossible to know who the 'best of the best' actually are. However, we do know who is really fucking good right now and for all intent and purposes we know who THE BEST players are and you (maybe not) and others are advocating purposefully not inviting them. I think that's a problem, hype or not.. | ||
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