EPTNASL: Koreans? Top Koreans? - Page 26
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cozzE
Australia357 Posts
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:06 Pokebunny wrote: Well, Eastern europeans have always seemed really disconnected from the rest of the non-korean world. I'd love to see them be more accessible, but at this moment, I don't know much about them. Maybe because you are not an east european? Im pretty sure bratok has quite a few fans in Russia. If this tournament is aimed for americans, why is it even being restreamed to Europe? People cant possible compare this to a national league, it's clearly suposed to be global, or at least American/European/South American/Anything but korean. | ||
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Weasel-
Canada1556 Posts
Unless I'm wrong about MLG not allowing Koreans; would seem outright racist since they let Jinro, TLO and Haypro play in MLG Dallas when they were practicing in Korea at the time. | ||
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Peas
Canada102 Posts
On March 16 2011 08:55 caradoc wrote: bad argument. How many foreigners have attempted to qualify for the GSL? How many have actually made it? make a ratio out of these two numbers. Now do the same for koreans. Compare ratios. Now try again to make that argument using those two ratios. you will find it is impossible. What the hell? Did you entirely miss my point? lots of people are claiming the the NASL should be reserved for the best players in the world, the best of the best. What i am saying is that if yuo believe the above is true, you would have to be ok with an NASL comprised almost solely of koreans. Comprende? On March 16 2011 08:55 caradoc wrote: koreans...undermine...OUR tournaments..... ...must be grassroots... I dont follow the logic. You clearly have trouble understanding things...so ill paraphrase as bluntly as I can. An NASL featuring more than a few koreans would undermine the quest for parity... GIVEN THE FACT THAT koreans are so far ahead of us currently. "Herp derp... Lets throw UFC fighters into a cage with anorexic teenagers and pretend its good for the later...herp derp". Hyperbole yes, but the point stands On March 16 2011 08:55 caradoc wrote: now you're lumping together EUR/NA? Why don't we just rename it to the Nazi Aryan Stormtrooper League? and who is FORCING koreans to compete? last I checked a lot of koreans wanted to. Again, you miss the point entirely. EUR/NA are consistently grouped together under a term you may have heard...its called "foreigner". Moreover, EUR/NA players are by and large on the same level...so it makes sense to group them together for the sake of the point I was making. Yeash. I never said, nor implied that we are currently forcing koreans to compete with us. For the third time you fail to comprehend what I was saying. I was simply refering to the idea of making an active effort to put koreans together with foreigners in competition. On March 16 2011 08:55 caradoc wrote:allowing koreans for flavor? parity? Parity doesnt exist yet you silly boy. I am not going to repeat again why allowing an unlimited number of koreans into the NASL would be bad for THE QUEST for parity. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:10 SKC wrote: Maybe because you are not an east european? Im pretty sure bratok has quite a few fans in Russia. If this tournament is aimed for americans, why is it even being restreamed to Europe? People cant possible compare this to a national league, it's clearly suposed to be global, or at least American/European/South American/Anything but korean. I'm just talking about my opinion as an NA spectator. | ||
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legaton
France1763 Posts
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Ves
United States27 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:07 hmunkey wrote: IdrA and Tyler will still be able to compete if it's open because they're actually good. The issue at hand is should players like ST_Ace be banned from NASL so NA/EU nobodys with no tourney results can play? How many "nobodys" do you think their are in the Foreigner SC2 scene? I can't see the 50 slots available not being filled by players who are deserving. Besides at one point SlayerSBoxer was a nobody. At one point oGsNada was a nobody. When given the opportunity people can grow right in front of you. Maybe one of these people you considered to be a nobody goes on a tear and beats Tyler and IdrA in succession. Would he be a nobody then? | ||
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Zechs
United Kingdom321 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:03 emythrel wrote: Hey jinro!!!! Love you man!!!! /fanboi mode off I think that you've made Motmobs point, if 3 players who didn't even make it through the first round of code A can wipe the floor with the rest of the world, why would anyone watch MC, MVP and Nestea and July stomp 9 other guys in their group 2-0 then stomp whomever they get in the play offs until its just Koreans, yourself and possibly Idra and HuK....... we can watch GSL for that. I'd love to see some Koreans play in NASL, maybe even one or two players like MVP/MC but they only fly out of their own timezone when there is big bucks on the line, they don't seem to take an active interest in our scene otherwise, however on the flipside we pay major attention to their scene. Is not the reason why the foreigners go to GSL that its where the best players are? I'm sure the money is a draw, but people don't go there for the money.... only yourself and Idra have really made any over there yet.... they go for the competition. Would the Koreans come to play NASL if it were $1000 for first instead of $100,000??? Probably not. Would the foreigners play in NASL for $1000? Probably quite a few, atleast those who live in the US would. I know you go to Korea dreaming of riches and bitches, but the reality is that everyone who goes there knows there is a damn big chance they won't make much money, infact for foreigners most can make more money back home with all the tourneys and team leagues going on. They go to korea because thats where the best players are, where the best practice partners are, where the team houses are. Look at it this way, the GSL has the best koreans in the world plus the very very best 2-3 foreigners. The NASL can have the best non-koreans in the world plus the very very best 2-3 Koreans. I just don't want to see 30 koreans come and blow away the foreigners in a western tourney set up to help globalise SC2 as an esport. Anyone from europe knows how people constantly argue in football about "too many foreigners ruining the game" and shit, I remember the first time ever in the history of English professional football a team was fielded that was 11 foreign players, there was an uproar from most people, not one english guy was good enough????? People got very uppity because while its great to see SOME of the best players in the world playing in your country's league, you wouldn't want to have EVERY single one of the best foreign players playing in your league and having hardly anyone from your OWN country. Lets face it, for the casual viewer, personalities like incontrol and Idra are just more relatable than someone who can barely speak a word of English. I am pretty hardcore about this game, I play and watch it every day, but I never listen to the interviews of korean player because they are flat out boring. The ones who do have a personality are awesome, but they are the exception and not the rule...... in western culture we seem to produce gamers who are also comedians, in our community its all personality and only a few people with none... hell whitera can barely string three words together in english and he's one of the funniest players I've seen. tl;dr If NASL tries to be GSL and has tonnes of foreigners then we will just have another GSL, what is the point in that? We are not korean, we don't do things the way they do, we want showmanship and personality, bring me some korean pro-gamers who will entertain me and I'll happily change my tune. If we want esports to become mainstream in the west its need to be like it was with pro wrestling, it crept in by being edgy, funny, violent and child friendly all at the same time. Nearly all of my friends are now in their late 20's and early 30's and still hooked on WWE, myself too, but they all call me lame for watching esports........ the only way to shift that tide is to show that esports are entertaining, that its not just nerds in glasses clicking, there is personality and drama too.... we see all that, we have to find a way to show it to everyone else. Your last paragraph is just depressing and you clearly don't understand basically any of the issues, or have any idea about how sport works. WWE, really? This is exactly what people who want esports to progress are hoping to avoid. People's ignorance of esports history is depressing. I suggest you go and read up on the CGS and see why taking this "sports entertainment" model is destined to fail - in short, it's targetted at "The Mainstream" who don't give a shit, ignoring the fanbase that already care and thereby alienating them. NASL's stated goal was to improve the level of esports in the West. That's fine, noble even, but you don't get better by playing people at or around your own level. By barring the best players in the world you are blatantly harming the opportunities of those you supposedly trying to help. As i said earlier, it's no coincidence that Huk and Jinro are far and away the best foreigners, because they play against the best in the world on a daily basis. Jinro is living proof that invluding Koreans into NASL would be a huge boon for western players. Moreover, who are these "casual viewers" you talk about? I would say with some confidence that there is no such thing as a casual esports viewer. Not really. Some are more hardcore than others, naturally, but esports is a niche - a growing one, but a niche nontheless - with a handful of decent websites. | ||
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Kazzabiss
1006 Posts
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:10 Weasel- wrote: I want to point out that the "MLG with better prizepool" analogy of NASL that some people have been stating is completely flawed. I've never heard of Koreans not being allowed to buy a gamer pass for one MLG weekend and show up to play the same way I as a North American can. Since NASL is mostly an invite league (NASL's open tournament vs MLG's 256 player open bracket), who you choose to invite is for the most part who you allow. Furthermore, MLG does the entirety of seeding based on players' history at their own tournaments, which were also completely open to everyone. Unless I'm wrong about MLG not allowing Koreans; would seem outright racist since they let Jinro, TLO and Haypro play in MLG Dallas when they were practicing in Korea at the time. MLG allows any Koreans to compete; they just don't because of the prize pool and cost of a flight to the US + hotel expenses. It's not financially worth it. If MLG increased their prize pool and Koreans wanted to compete, you'd here Pokebunny and his buddies all whining about Koreans being allowed there. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:06 Pokebunny wrote: Well, Eastern europeans have always seemed really disconnected from the rest of the non-korean world. I'd love to see them be more accessible, but at this moment, I don't know much about them. How is banning Europeans from NASL going to help NA get to know Europeans? | ||
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Cyanocyst
2222 Posts
Not at all. I much preferred watching MLG last year than GSL. Besides for maybe Socke vs Drewbie on LT at MLG (North Carolina) Or Socke vs Jinro on Desert Oasis. Mlg's games were considerably less entertaining. "To each's own", i guess. | ||
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TheBJ
Bulgaria906 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:05 I_Love_Bacon wrote: I was going to make a long post to rekrul, but instead I'll respond to this because it's short and shows the different mind sets well. People who are in favor of this separation.... don't want competition killed. We (or at the very least, I) want competition killed for now in order to facilitate more in the future. Having the absolute best players in the world play right now might facilitate our desire to see the best games... but in my opinion it lessens the chance of these tournaments existing down the road. People should want to see foreigners strive to compete and stay on par with the Koreans for as long as sc2 remains fun, which should be for the foreseeable future, not just a couple of NASL's. Granted, I could be wrong, but so could you. I doubt either side has any real data to back up their points when it comes to "growing esports." Yes obviously i agree with your last statement , but if we want take esports seriously limitations just seems stupid. I also find this discussion pointless since i dont think even 98% of Code S koreans will drop code s to compete in NASL , because im sure they will overlap at some point , considering gsl and gstl are running all the time pretty much. As i stated 10 pages ago , the only thing this thread will accomplish is to bring us down in the eyes of the korean community. | ||
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bonedOUT
United States140 Posts
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:12 Ves wrote: How many "nobodys" do you think their are in the Foreigner SC2 scene? I can't see the 50 slots available not being filled by players who are deserving. Besides at one point SlayerSBoxer was a nobody. At one point oGsNada was a nobody. When given the opportunity people can grow right in front of you. Maybe one of these people you considered to be a nobody goes on a tear and beats Tyler and IdrA in succession. Would he be a nobody then? Name 50 top level players like IdrA, Tyler, etc. No, really, I cant name more than 15 outside of Korea. And that aside, nobodies should make their name known like everyone else. Boxer and Nada were nobodies but they competed in tournaments and won. Look through the NASL applications VOD thread and tell me how many of those applications are from players who've actually won something. If we ban Koreans, winning NASL barely means anything. "You're the best player in the recreational league! Good job!" | ||
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milesfacade
United Kingdom799 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:06 Pokebunny wrote: Well, Eastern europeans have always seemed really disconnected from the rest of the non-korean world. I'd love to see them be more accessible, but at this moment, I don't know much about them. This is to do with your personal situation though, maybe if you followed the European scene more you would know more about them. Heck, surely you see the NASL as an opportunity to learn more about the players from around the world. The fact is, this is a tournament that is open to all nationalities and your clouded view of the starcraft scene should not overshadow the fact that there are other players outside the American scene that personalities and are heavily involved within the starcraft community. | ||
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DiaBoLuS
Germany1638 Posts
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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RevRich
United States218 Posts
Until then I'll always view Koreans vs Foreigners as the an unfair matchup of Professionals vs Hobbyists. Putting 50 Koreans in the NASL doesn't help turn our largely hobbyist sc2 players into professionals, it does the opposite by crushing their confidence. | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On March 16 2011 06:58 Pudge_172 wrote: If there are any Koreans invited, I would like to see guys who have a really good reputation but haven't been able to crack Code A. Bomber, Seed, HyeJun, are 3 guys who would be nice to see. Also, it would make sense for Korean teams to get their "B-teamers" some experience this way. Since this is the NORTH AMERICAN starleague, I want to see mostly NA players with some EU and about 5 KR/SEA players. My split(which means nothing) would be 30 NA 15 EU 5 KR/SEA This would probably make for a lot of very boring matches :s I believe it's general concensus that NA has fewer top level player than Europe has, so I can only imagine the 30th North American player invited wouldn't be able to put up any sort of fight against the koreans, europeans and the top level americans. When making any sort of split like that you really have to take the level of the different regions in to account. It is a North American league so they should of course aim for as many american players as possible as long as those player are competitive. I'm not sure what the number would be then but I'm sure it would be lower than 30. In my opinion the ideal solution would be to get as many top top level player from outside of korea as possible and then fill up with koreans after that. Obviously people don't wanna see 40 koreans in an American league and I doubt that's even beeing considered by NASL, but on the other hand they can't let second tier players in just because they have to fill a quota (somehow this reminds me of a rather embarassing scene involving an african olympic swimmer) They need to look at the applicants and then find a balance between wanting to further the foreinger community and not ending up as a lower level competition. And I'm confident that's exactly what they are currently doing. | ||
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