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On March 16 2011 09:15 bonedOUT wrote:
I don't understand why this thread is so long. I thought we all watch starcraft because we like to watch GREAT games. Why does it matter if they are Korean or American or European? If they can put on a great show and introduce cool new strategies, then why not invite more koreans? I don't understand people saying that they can't "relate" to the koreans. We all play the same damn game.
Because we already have the gsl. Having a gsl version 2.0 in north america wont help the western esports scene if it ends up being mostly korean players after a few seasons.
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I think there should be at least some Koreans if it's an invite only league. If it goes open qualifier, Koreans should be allowed to qualify.
Any tournament without Koreans loses legitimacy. You can't hype up players as being among the best in the world when you're purposely shielding them from having to compete with the best in the world.
Did iccup C+ players get better by only ever playing other C+ players? Isn't it the NA/EU top players that always say you have to play equal or better players to get better?
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On March 16 2011 09:17 RevRich wrote:
When NA/EU has a shitload of players that play starcraft 2 for a living, then I want to see as many Koreans in the NASL as possible.
Until then I'll always view Koreans vs Foreigners as the an unfair matchup of Professionals vs Hobbyists.
Putting 50 Koreans in the NASL doesn't help turn our largely hobbyist sc2 players into professionals, it does the opposite by crushing their confidence.
Giving our NA/EU players an easy league of comparatively bad players doesn't make them professionals either. The challenge of having to compete with people above their level is what makes them professionals. Look at Jinro.
If NASL is a baby league, all the competitors will stay at a baby level.
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letting Koreans compete is a good thing. It will force western sc2 players to step up their game if they want to continue on with being a pro gamer. Koreans take what they do seriously. They are professionals. I don't see why Americans/Europeans should have to treat it any different.
It's not like Koreans are invincible, it's that Koreans simply put more into their practice.
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On March 16 2011 09:15 TheBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:05 I_Love_Bacon wrote:On March 16 2011 09:00 TheBJ wrote:On March 16 2011 08:58 Rekrul wrote:
to sit around saying 'inviting the best koreans won't be fun because the games will all be one sided blah blah' is really retarded
first of all, thats not true, foreigners do have a chance. with such money on the line it should be the best in the world and if some foreign players don't like that it's because of a combination of greed+not being good enough
the top koreans will add an insane amount of hype to the tournament, even if the top 8 ends up being 1 foreigner and all koreans. and the 'one sided game' bs?
what makes exciting tournaments is PLAYER HYPE, even more so than quality of games. we could see a 5 hour long 3-2 back and forth series between incontrol and pokebunny with 5k minerals in the bank each warring it out with armies of forces when they get a chance to box macro them out, sure, maybe some people like that. but the average fan would rather see the best player doing something cool that wins a quick game than that.
remember sc1 in korea. iloveoov, nada, boxer etc all went on insane streaks where every win was incredibly easy and the fans LOVED it. and some of the most exciting games in history were boxer proxy raxing so don't give me b.s. about 'we want good games' in any tournament you will have rape games, and you will have close games. obviously the end game would be for foreigners to get better and be able to compete with the koreans then we can have some real hype.
it's good that NASL creates incentive for players to raise their level by offering such big prizes, but to restrict the best players from playing saying 'stay in ur country be happy u have gsl' so that some white boy can win is the dumbest fucking thing i have ever heard Couldnt have said it better myself , how on earth do people want e-sports to grow if they want to kill the competition , so their friends can have a shot at some extra bucks... I was going to make a long post to rekrul, but instead I'll respond to this because it's short and shows the different mind sets well. People who are in favor of this separation.... don't want competition killed. We (or at the very least, I) want competition killed for now in order to facilitate more in the future. Having the absolute best players in the world play right now might facilitate our desire to see the best games... but in my opinion it lessens the chance of these tournaments existing down the road. People should want to see foreigners strive to compete and stay on par with the Koreans for as long as sc2 remains fun, which should be for the foreseeable future, not just a couple of NASL's. Granted, I could be wrong, but so could you. I doubt either side has any real data to back up their points when it comes to "growing esports." Yes obviously i agree with your last statement , but if we want take esports seriously limitations just seems stupid. I also find this discussion pointless since i dont think even 98% of Code S koreans will drop code s to compete in NASL , because im sure they will overlap at some point , considering gsl and gstl are running all the time pretty much. As i stated 10 pages ago , the only thing this thread will accomplish is to bring us down in the eyes of the korean community.
I've read this and many things similar to it. There is no indication that any of the NASL's requirements will conflict with CodeA/S yet. I would imagine, yes, there is a good chance that the live date will conflict with some player's schedule. However, unless it is like the first week of CodeA/S matches then many players will be freed up to make the trip. it's not like they have to live in America for A month, a la GSL.
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Actively restricting Koreans from the NASL would be a fucking disgrace. What kind of league says, "Oh, these guys are too good so we'll put a quota on them so our people have a better chance"? (yeah, you can couch it in a veil stressing the importance of "player familiarity" and "drama" but honestly it simply looks like certain people are just scared of Koreans dominating)
All it looks like to me is segregation just so NA/other western players can feel good about themselves. Restricting Koreans will only make the Korean/foreigner skill gap more evident. If foreigners don't have to compete against Koreans in their big tournaments, how can they get motivated to get any better? If you're winning oodles of prize money when your opponents aren't even the best because you blocked them out, why would you want to practice harder? You're already "good enough" to be successful in your cocoon of a tournament, so why bother trying to get good enough to compete with the truly top players in the world? I can hardly see how that would help develop the western e-sports scene; it rather seems like it would give people some sort of false sense of development when in reality they're still far behind Koreans.
No. I think Koreans in the NASL will be good for the foreign scene. It will encourage the truly dedicated players to step it up to compete with the best, and the mediocre ones will fall into obscurity.
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On March 16 2011 09:17 L3gendary wrote:
Because we already have the gsl. Having a gsl version 2.0 in north america wont help the western esports scene if it ends up being mostly korean players after a few seasons.
How about western players step up their game? Or are they just not good enough end of story?
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OK, why are they implementing the NASL? - To make a PROFIT!
How do they make a profit? - By gravitating to the largest audience for their league.
How are they going to get the largest audience? - By inviting players from around the world.
Who is their target audience? - North America and Europe.
Taking these into consideration it makes perfect sense to invite mostly players from North America and Europe into their league. Of course they will invite a few Korean and SEA players because it will get them more viewers and sponsors. However, if they invited mostly Korean players then they would be less likely to attract as many viewers/sponsors because the Korean audience wants to watch the GSL, not the NASL. Many people want to watch their national heroes play in a premier league, since most aren't qualified in GSL.
NASL doesn't want to compete with the GSL for viewers/sponsors and players.
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On March 16 2011 09:00 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:52 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 08:51 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:48 Tachion wrote:On March 16 2011 08:42 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:40 teamsolid wrote:On March 16 2011 08:31 Rokk wrote:On March 16 2011 08:28 hmunkey wrote:On March 16 2011 08:27 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:26 Clare wrote:
[quote]
That's subjective though. Sure, you might not feel connected to the Koreans, but some people might. I completely agree that my opinion is subjective, however I don't think it's fair to say my points are based entirely on the race of the player. I'm merely expressing what I would like to see as a spectator. No, you're expressing what you'd like to see as a potential competitor. If it's for NA only, you have a chance of getting it. If it's for Koreans you have no chance of ever competing in the NASL. Don't lie. I don't agree with Pokebunny at all, but at least refute his arguments instead of making up bullshit when he has stated the opposite multiple times. It doesn't matter what he states. Even if he's not going to make it in this season, if Koreans start getting invited, the chances of him ever competing in the future (in case his skill rises) will still be hurt. Subconsciously, I'm sure he knows this and all this other reasoning is just to justify these gut feelings. Not at all. I much preferred watching MLG last year than GSL. You've stated about 10 times in this thread so far that you like NA Starcraft more than KR, but you have not once yet explained why. Would you mind indulging your critics with an actual reason for why you find NA Starcraft matches more entertaining? I feel more interested in the players. They're more familiar and I enjoy watching them grow and compete against eachother. They're people I have opinions on other than their gameplay. On that note, what is your opinion about European players, especially eastern european ones like White-Ra and Dimaga Kinda on the fence. They deserve the chance to compete but I'm not particularly interested in them.
Those are some pretty xenophobic series of comment there, so you only only have interest in having NA players regardless of quality...wow...sigh...
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![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/EOhp7.png)
lol
world
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On March 16 2011 09:15 Cyanocyst wrote:Besides for maybe Socke vs Drewbie on LT at MLG (North Carolina) Or Socke vs Jinro on Desert Oasis. Mlg's games were considerably less entertaining. "To each's own", i guess.
i agree. many MLG games would have been unwatchable if not for the commentators. i hope NASL picks people based on skill and prior tournament experience and not just based on whether they're American or have a fanclub on TL.net.
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On March 16 2011 09:06 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:05 PsYLaR wrote:On March 16 2011 09:03 DiaBoLuS wrote:On March 16 2011 09:00 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:52 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 08:51 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:48 Tachion wrote:On March 16 2011 08:42 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:40 teamsolid wrote:On March 16 2011 08:31 Rokk wrote:
[quote]
I don't agree with Pokebunny at all, but at least refute his arguments instead of making up bullshit when he has stated the opposite multiple times. It doesn't matter what he states. Even if he's not going to make it in this season, if Koreans start getting invited, the chances of him ever competing in the future (in case his skill rises) will still be hurt. Subconsciously, I'm sure he knows this and all this other reasoning is just to justify these gut feelings. Not at all. I much preferred watching MLG last year than GSL. You've stated about 10 times in this thread so far that you like NA Starcraft more than KR, but you have not once yet explained why. Would you mind indulging your critics with an actual reason for why you find NA Starcraft matches more entertaining? I feel more interested in the players. They're more familiar and I enjoy watching them grow and compete against eachother. They're people I have opinions on other than their gameplay. On that note, what is your opinion about European players, especially eastern european ones like White-Ra and Dimaga Kinda on the fence. They deserve the chance to compete but I'm not particularly interested in them. living in the dream that only NA exists to be a noticable player? he just want hes friends to have a chance to get in.... Well, Eastern europeans have always seemed really disconnected from the rest of the non-korean world. I'd love to see them be more accessible, but at this moment, I don't know much about them.
And that's why they should be invited.
You've basically been saying: I want interesting people in the league, but only those people that I've already determined to be interesting. I don't want to make an effort to become interested in other players.
Honestly, this isn't stupid a chicken and egg problem. If they are disconnected with the rest of the world, then the solution is to invite them and connect with them. Why should they be forced to connect with you first? You should be taking the initiative, and connect with them first.
Your attitude isn't very helpful to the league or the sc2 community as a whole.
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Why won't it help the western esports scene grow? If NA/EU players are playing with the best in the world, how do you expect them to get better. I believe that koreans will dominate the first few seasons, but I expect NA/EU players to catch up quickly with increased competition
On March 16 2011 09:17 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:15 bonedOUT wrote:
I don't understand why this thread is so long. I thought we all watch starcraft because we like to watch GREAT games. Why does it matter if they are Korean or American or European? If they can put on a great show and introduce cool new strategies, then why not invite more koreans? I don't understand people saying that they can't "relate" to the koreans. We all play the same damn game. Because we already have the gsl. Having a gsl version 2.0 in north america wont help the western esports scene if it ends up being mostly korean players after a few seasons.
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My problem comes from the name. If they don't intend for it to be mainly North Americans, it shouldn't be a North American league.
If they DO want it to be a "North American" league, they should invite a handful of Koreans, a bigger handful of Europeans, and a slightly bigger handful of North Americans. Yeah, it would probably be predictable which region will come out on top, but it fosters competition and gives the tournament more credibility to let Koreans/Europeans participate.
If they just want it to be a popular Starleague that features some of the world's best players, they should invite an equal number of players from every region. I would say invite less NA players than EU/Korean players, except that they're still calling it the North American Star League. Would be sort of silly for that to be the name and there are only 10 American players participating.
Whatever they do, the field will stabilize after a couple seasons and people will have forgotten all about the drama surrounding how the invitations were thrown out.
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If you don't allow the best of the best to compete in your tournament you're basically setting up a secondrate promotion. If all you care about is making money and you feel having more White guys play bad games is the way to go, don't lie and say this tournament is 'FOR ESPORTS YAY!'
you can either be the UFC or Cage Rage 12 Alabama Showdown, I hope the NASL chooses to be the UFC.
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On March 16 2011 09:17 RevRich wrote:
When NA/EU has a shitload of players that play starcraft 2 for a living, then I want to see as many Koreans in the NASL as possible.
Until then I'll always view Koreans vs Foreigners as the an unfair matchup of Professionals vs Hobbyists.
Putting 50 Koreans in the NASL doesn't help turn our largely hobbyist sc2 players into professionals, it does the opposite by crushing their confidence.
So Hobbyist should unfairly be allowed to compete for $400k by barring the pros from competing? sign me up for the CASUAL Basketball league where I can win money in the magnitude of hundreds of thousands of dollars for winning a small tournament.
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By the end of the day we are watching STARCRAFT, not players who can speak english with one another. Why not watch the best players playing starcraft.
dont limit koreans. i say a fair amount like 33% KR/NA/EU
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its NASL, i would actually have no problem with no europeans and no koreans, just living up to the name "North America Solo League".
the tournament could be a failure but i won't be complaining.
i still wonder why they chose this name.
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On March 16 2011 09:19 Ghost-z wrote:
OK, why are they implementing the NASL? - To make a PROFIT!
How do they make a profit? - By gravitating to the largest audience for their league.
How are they going to get the largest audience? - By inviting players from around the world.
Who is their target audience? - North America and Europe.
Taking these into consideration it makes perfect sense to invite mostly players from North America and Europe into their league. Of course they will invite a few Korean and SEA players because it will get them more viewers and sponsors. However, if they invited mostly Korean players then they would be less likely to attract as many viewers/sponsors because the Korean audience wants to watch the GSL, not the NASL. Many people want to watch their national heroes play in a premier league, since most aren't qualified in GSL.
NASL doesn't want to compete with the GSL for viewers/sponsors and players.
What if the North American and European also want to watch a GSL? From the majority of the feedback from this thread, I don't see why not having koreans would bring more sponsors and specially viewers. Imagine if you could get koreans to watch NASL, that would be crazy.
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EPT
