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On March 16 2011 09:20 dookudooku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:06 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 09:05 PsYLaR wrote:On March 16 2011 09:03 DiaBoLuS wrote:On March 16 2011 09:00 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:52 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 08:51 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:48 Tachion wrote:On March 16 2011 08:42 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:40 teamsolid wrote:
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It doesn't matter what he states. Even if he's not going to make it in this season, if Koreans start getting invited, the chances of him ever competing in the future (in case his skill rises) will still be hurt. Subconsciously, I'm sure he knows this and all this other reasoning is just to justify these gut feelings. Not at all. I much preferred watching MLG last year than GSL. You've stated about 10 times in this thread so far that you like NA Starcraft more than KR, but you have not once yet explained why. Would you mind indulging your critics with an actual reason for why you find NA Starcraft matches more entertaining? I feel more interested in the players. They're more familiar and I enjoy watching them grow and compete against eachother. They're people I have opinions on other than their gameplay. On that note, what is your opinion about European players, especially eastern european ones like White-Ra and Dimaga Kinda on the fence. They deserve the chance to compete but I'm not particularly interested in them. living in the dream that only NA exists to be a noticable player? he just want hes friends to have a chance to get in.... Well, Eastern europeans have always seemed really disconnected from the rest of the non-korean world. I'd love to see them be more accessible, but at this moment, I don't know much about them. And that's why they should be invited. You've basically been saying: I want interesting people in the league, but only those people that I've already determined to be interesting. I don't want to make an effort to become interested in other players. Honestly, this isn't stupid a chicken and egg problem. If they are disconnected with the rest of the world, then the solution is to invite them and connect with them. Why should they be forced to connect with you first? You should be taking the initiative, and connect with them first.
Yeah, changed my mind there now after reconsidering.
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If you're a western pro gamer, and you are actually against letting koreans compete in the NASL, you may want to consider quitting sc2 or playing casually. You won't make it.
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On March 16 2011 09:11 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:10 SKC wrote:On March 16 2011 09:06 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 09:05 PsYLaR wrote:On March 16 2011 09:03 DiaBoLuS wrote:On March 16 2011 09:00 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:52 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 08:51 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:48 Tachion wrote:On March 16 2011 08:42 Pokebunny wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. I much preferred watching MLG last year than GSL. You've stated about 10 times in this thread so far that you like NA Starcraft more than KR, but you have not once yet explained why. Would you mind indulging your critics with an actual reason for why you find NA Starcraft matches more entertaining? I feel more interested in the players. They're more familiar and I enjoy watching them grow and compete against eachother. They're people I have opinions on other than their gameplay. On that note, what is your opinion about European players, especially eastern european ones like White-Ra and Dimaga Kinda on the fence. They deserve the chance to compete but I'm not particularly interested in them. living in the dream that only NA exists to be a noticable player? he just want hes friends to have a chance to get in.... Well, Eastern europeans have always seemed really disconnected from the rest of the non-korean world. I'd love to see them be more accessible, but at this moment, I don't know much about them. Maybe because you are not an east european? Im pretty sure bratok has quite a few fans in Russia. If this tournament is aimed for americans, why is it even being restreamed to Europe? People cant possible compare this to a national league, it's clearly suposed to be global, or at least American/European/South American/Anything but korean. I'm just talking about my opinion as an NA spectator.
I don't think you can claim non-bias when you are applying for the league and no koreans would maybe get you a post. Your profile even disclaims " Please vote for me for NASL! " followed by a link and as mentioned elsewhere in this thread you've mentioned you are top 50 in NA. The smell of bias is there, and I'm afraid that hurts your point a bit.
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On March 16 2011 09:20 rift wrote:![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/EOhp7.png) lol
See this always happens. People hype up NA players as among the best in the world without backing that statement up with results. It must the the America #1 mentality. If Idra can smack talk Koreans saying they suck and he's better than them, why wouldn't he want more chances to play them and prove it?
If NA top players only play against Koreans once a year, they won't benefit as much as if they play against Koreans regularly in tournaments throughout the year. More experience playing against Koreans can only make them better players.
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On March 16 2011 09:19 Ghost-z wrote:
OK, why are they implementing the NASL? - To make a PROFIT!
How do they make a profit? - By gravitating to the largest audience for their league.
How are they going to get the largest audience? - By inviting players from around the world.
Who is their target audience? - North America and Europe.
Taking these into consideration it makes perfect sense to invite mostly players from North America and Europe into their league. Of course they will invite a few Korean and SEA players because it will get them more viewers and sponsors. However, if they invited mostly Korean players then they would be less likely to attract as many viewers/sponsors because the Korean audience wants to watch the GSL, not the NASL. Many people want to watch their national heroes play in a premier league, since most aren't qualified in GSL.
NASL doesn't want to compete with the GSL for viewers/sponsors and players.
If the NASL is only going to invite inferior players for their own self gain when they claim to be the premier league in north america, then they won't get a dime from me, and i imagine a lot of people who want to see true competition not a league of some awesome players and a bunch of others just because he's NA/EU.
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On March 16 2011 09:19 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:17 RevRich wrote:
When NA/EU has a shitload of players that play starcraft 2 for a living, then I want to see as many Koreans in the NASL as possible.
Until then I'll always view Koreans vs Foreigners as the an unfair matchup of Professionals vs Hobbyists.
Putting 50 Koreans in the NASL doesn't help turn our largely hobbyist sc2 players into professionals, it does the opposite by crushing their confidence. Giving our NA/EU players an easy league of comparatively bad players doesn't make them professionals either. The challenge of having to compete with people above their level is what makes them professionals. Look at Jinro. If NASL is a baby league, all the competitors will stay at a baby level.
Jinro didn't fly over to Korea and just own it up. He slowly got better over time because (for the 900th time) he was able to put in the same amount of time as the Korean players. We need to make it so our scene supports team houses and sponsorships, etc etc.
Playing 1 set vs a Korean in NASL and getting smashed isn't going to improve our players skill. Its just gonna discourage them from pursuing sc2 as anything more than a hobby. Start slow, invite a few Koreans, but most importantly grow e sports so we can actually compete with the Korean practice machines.
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On March 16 2011 09:23 Zzoram wrote:See this always happens. People hype up NA players as among the best in the world without backing that statement up with results. It must the the America #1 mentality. If Idra can smack talk Koreans saying they suck and he's better than them, why wouldn't he want more chances to play them and prove it? If NA top players only play against Koreans once a year, they won't benefit as much as if they play against Koreans regularly in tournaments throughout the year. More experience playing against Koreans can only make them better players.
I dont think anyone's saying NA players are particularly good. The only ones that are really strong have korean training, huk idra select. The argument is more about should there be lots of KR invites, given that they will probably be tough to beat.
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You people arguing that you only want the best and nothing else are all fucking hypocrites.
I didn't see a single complaint thread over the TSL Korean invites. Why should Boxer be invited? He's certainly not the best - dude just got knocked into Code A. He was invited because he's BOXER, he's a big name, he's really famous, people want to see him play. In terms of raw skill, there are plenty of people more deserving.
What about Haypro? He is a good player certainly, but in Korea has had extremely limited success. Even Ret to a certain extent. Why no complaints? Obviously he's from Liquid and its their tournament, but he's also a foreigner, and people want to see how our foreigners in Korea shape up to the Western competition.
NASL is not just producing a tournament, they're producing an epic show. They want drama, rivalry, smack-talk and all other kinds of things which are ENTERTAINING to watch. Some of you may think that simply seeing the best of the best crushing every tournament and giving modest, translated and frankly boring interviews is entertaining, but a lot of people disagree.
You need to remember that NASL is about expanding e-sports in the WEST, it's doing just fine in Korea already. If someone new to SC2 turns on NASL and sees people being crushed by Koreans and then giving a boring as hell interview in Korean, they probably won't really have their interest piqued. We want people to get involved, we want e-sports to grow, so we should also want NASL to be a helluva show to the casual player, and not just our elitist overinflated egos.
Come on guys.
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On March 16 2011 09:20 rift wrote:lol world
Yeah, if NASL didn't have the best players like the Koreans in the league, I would consider it false advertising at best and disingenuous at worst.
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On March 16 2011 09:22 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:20 dookudooku wrote:On March 16 2011 09:06 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 09:05 PsYLaR wrote:On March 16 2011 09:03 DiaBoLuS wrote:On March 16 2011 09:00 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:52 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 08:51 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:48 Tachion wrote:On March 16 2011 08:42 Pokebunny wrote:
[quote]
Not at all. I much preferred watching MLG last year than GSL. You've stated about 10 times in this thread so far that you like NA Starcraft more than KR, but you have not once yet explained why. Would you mind indulging your critics with an actual reason for why you find NA Starcraft matches more entertaining? I feel more interested in the players. They're more familiar and I enjoy watching them grow and compete against eachother. They're people I have opinions on other than their gameplay. On that note, what is your opinion about European players, especially eastern european ones like White-Ra and Dimaga Kinda on the fence. They deserve the chance to compete but I'm not particularly interested in them. living in the dream that only NA exists to be a noticable player? he just want hes friends to have a chance to get in.... Well, Eastern europeans have always seemed really disconnected from the rest of the non-korean world. I'd love to see them be more accessible, but at this moment, I don't know much about them. And that's why they should be invited. You've basically been saying: I want interesting people in the league, but only those people that I've already determined to be interesting. I don't want to make an effort to become interested in other players. Honestly, this isn't stupid a chicken and egg problem. If they are disconnected with the rest of the world, then the solution is to invite them and connect with them. Why should they be forced to connect with you first? You should be taking the initiative, and connect with them first. Yeah, changed my mind there now after reconsidering.
Thank goodness.
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On March 16 2011 09:20 rift wrote:lol world
Thats almost as funny as the "Global (as long as you move to South Korea) Starcraft League" :D
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On March 16 2011 09:19 HolyArrow wrote:
Actively restricting Koreans from the NASL would be a fucking disgrace. What kind of league says, "Oh, these guys are too good so we'll put a quota on them so our people have a better chance"?
Its not about saying "they are too good, w r scurred". Its about creating the infrastructure within europe and north american that would ultimately lead to global SC2 parity. Having 20+ koreans dominate a tournament so fundimental to the growth of e-sports in the west would be a bad thing. It amazes me how people dont seem to understand this.
On March 16 2011 09:19 HolyArrow wrote:
All it looks like to me is segregation just so NA/other western players can feel good about themselves. Restricting Koreans will only make the Korean/foreigner skill gap more evident. If foreigners don't have to compete against Koreans in their big tournaments, how can they get motivated to get any better? If you're winning oodles of prize money when your opponents aren't even the best because you blocked them out, why would you want to practice harder? You're already "good enough" to be successful in your cocoon of a tournament, so why bother trying to get good enough to compete with the truly top players in the world?
No, it will not make the gap more evident...it will make it less evident. It will give EUR/NA players a GSL calibre tournament that will hopefully promote a "korean-esque" gaming culture...and thus...korean level practice/infrastructure. Beating the koreans is never going to be a true motivator for people, and as such, will never facilitate the quest for parity. What will motivate western SC2 players is having an infrastructure and a culture that supports them as professionals.
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I agree with mostly everyone. If you want the best tournament, then you must have the best players.
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Personally if koreans are going to be in the league I think they should invite the ones who actually have personalities. So say zenio and genius for example.
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The argument I'm making is that just because you haven't heard of the player before doesn't make him a scrub who has no reason to be there. Perhaps some people will surprise you. Giving some of the top NA/EU players a stage to show off their skill and give them an opportunity to make some cash to boot is not as bad as you guys are making it out to be.
Just last night IdrA got taken to the brink of losing to some Terran player on his stream I had never heard of. So clearly you don't have to have to be Korean to provide an entertaining game.
Like I said previous, the only time we ever see all these players together from the Foreigner Scene is at the yearly 6 MLG's. Here is another opportunity to see them all competing together. This is a really good thing.
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I find it absolutely hilarious that so much negativity is being thrown around. This is such a non-issue that its absolutely boggling to my mind why there's even a discussion.
Lets examine it from another perspective: What if I told you that another tournament halfway around the world was doing their best to promote their brand as the premier SC2 tourney in the world, going out of their way to make it accessible to anyone who wants to play (even those outside of their culture/language) by providing them with housing and food for the duration of their attempts to qualify and play? EVEN IF THOSE PLAYERS HAVEN'T QUALIFIED OR SHOWN RESULTS.
How about another premier world wide tournament that held qualifiers around the world and gave invites to others who were deemed worthy, in an attempt to see who really was the best?
What about a yearly tournament, an institution of eSports, that has qualifiers the world over and every year changes location and provides housing for the players who are going to compete?
Now, I don't see anyone in this thread saying that the GSL, IEM, or WCG shouldn't be doing what they are doing, which is the same thing that NASL wants to do. To quote the NASL website:
50 of the world's best players will be featured weekly.
The NASL would be lying if it didn't at least attempt to make overtures to some koreans. Many will probably not accept and instead play in the GSL. Koreans (like ST especially, who have shown a desire to be a part of the foreigner community with things like playing the icCup Map Series) who clearly do want to participate should be judged in the same way as any European/American/SEA/etc player who wants in. To say anything else would be degrading to what this tournament wants to be and to the SC2 community as a whole.
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On March 16 2011 09:27 Subversion wrote:
You people arguing that you only want the best and nothing else are all fucking hypocrites.
I didn't see a single complaint thread over the TSL Korean invites. Why should Boxer be invited? He's certainly not the best - dude just got knocked into Code A. He was invited because he's BOXER, he's a big name, he's really famous, people want to see him play. In terms of raw skill, there are plenty of people more deserving.
What about Haypro? He is a good player certainly, but in Korea has had extremely limited success. Even Ret to a certain extent. Why no complaints? Obviously he's from Liquid and its their tournament, but he's also a foreigner, and people want to see how our foreigners in Korea shape up to the Western competition.
NASL is not just producing a tournament, they're producing an epic show. They want drama, rivalry, smack-talk and all other kinds of things which are ENTERTAINING to watch. Some of you may think that simply seeing the best of the best crushing every tournament and giving modest, translated and frankly boring interviews is entertaining, but a lot of people disagree.
You need to remember that NASL is about expanding e-sports in the WEST, it's doing just fine in Korea already. If someone new to SC2 turns on NASL and sees people being crushed by Koreans and then giving a boring as hell interview in Korean, they probably won't really have their interest piqued. We want people to get involved, we want e-sports to grow, so we should also want NASL to be a helluva show to the casual player, and not just our elitist overinflated egos.
Come on guys.
best post in the thread so far. I totally agree.
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On March 16 2011 09:27 Coriolis wrote:
Personally if koreans are going to be in the league I think they should invite the ones who actually have personalities. So say zenio and genius for example.
So skill doesn't matter to you. Glad we have that out of the way.
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On March 16 2011 09:27 RevRich wrote:Thats almost as funny as the "Global (as long as you move to South Korea) Starcraft League" :D
Not really , the gsl provides for the foreigners who want to compete , the fact that they arent good enough to compete and make stable income isnt the gsl's fault.
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On March 16 2011 09:25 RevRich wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:19 hmunkey wrote:On March 16 2011 09:17 RevRich wrote:
When NA/EU has a shitload of players that play starcraft 2 for a living, then I want to see as many Koreans in the NASL as possible.
Until then I'll always view Koreans vs Foreigners as the an unfair matchup of Professionals vs Hobbyists.
Putting 50 Koreans in the NASL doesn't help turn our largely hobbyist sc2 players into professionals, it does the opposite by crushing their confidence. Giving our NA/EU players an easy league of comparatively bad players doesn't make them professionals either. The challenge of having to compete with people above their level is what makes them professionals. Look at Jinro. If NASL is a baby league, all the competitors will stay at a baby level. Jinro didn't fly over to Korea and just own it up. He slowly got better over time because (for the 900th time) he was able to put in the same amount of time as the Korean players. We need to make it so our scene supports team houses and sponsorships, etc etc. Playing 1 set vs a Korean in NASL and getting smashed isn't going to improve our players skill. Its just gonna discourage them from pursuing sc2 as anything more than a hobby. Start slow, invite a few Koreans, but most importantly grow e sports so we can actually compete with the Korean practice regiments.
Why do you continue posting with the belief that top NA/EU players play SC2 as nothing but a hobby? Almost all top players are on professional organizations that PAY them to play the game. That isn't what I call a "hobbyist." Further I don't see how losing a set would discourage anyone from quitting, it should do the opposite. Completely limiting Korean's tells these players they are not good enough, and that should not be the mentality of any SC2 organization at this stage in the game's life.
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EPT
