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On March 16 2011 09:03 DiaBoLuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:00 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:52 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 08:51 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:48 Tachion wrote:On March 16 2011 08:42 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:40 teamsolid wrote:On March 16 2011 08:31 Rokk wrote:On March 16 2011 08:28 hmunkey wrote:On March 16 2011 08:27 Pokebunny wrote:
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I completely agree that my opinion is subjective, however I don't think it's fair to say my points are based entirely on the race of the player. I'm merely expressing what I would like to see as a spectator. No, you're expressing what you'd like to see as a potential competitor. If it's for NA only, you have a chance of getting it. If it's for Koreans you have no chance of ever competing in the NASL. Don't lie. I don't agree with Pokebunny at all, but at least refute his arguments instead of making up bullshit when he has stated the opposite multiple times. It doesn't matter what he states. Even if he's not going to make it in this season, if Koreans start getting invited, the chances of him ever competing in the future (in case his skill rises) will still be hurt. Subconsciously, I'm sure he knows this and all this other reasoning is just to justify these gut feelings. Not at all. I much preferred watching MLG last year than GSL. You've stated about 10 times in this thread so far that you like NA Starcraft more than KR, but you have not once yet explained why. Would you mind indulging your critics with an actual reason for why you find NA Starcraft matches more entertaining? I feel more interested in the players. They're more familiar and I enjoy watching them grow and compete against eachother. They're people I have opinions on other than their gameplay. On that note, what is your opinion about European players, especially eastern european ones like White-Ra and Dimaga Kinda on the fence. They deserve the chance to compete but I'm not particularly interested in them. living in the dream that only NA exists to be a noticable player?
he just want hes friends to have a chance to get in....
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I disagree with Jinro, I don't think it's the same. In order to compete in GSL you have to move to South Korea and spend months there. For the NASL it would be a week. Some people don't have the money or the support to move to another country, the TLAF guys were lucky to have both money to back them and the support of oGs.
Also this is called the "North American Star League" and they've said many times they want to grow E-Sports in the west. So then shouldn't the players be players from the "west". Personally I root for any foreigners in GSL no matter who their playing and the same will be true in the upcoming TSL. Why not give the foreign scene a chance to shine in this one of many available tournaments?
I agree with Pokebunny. He's presenting a rational argument from the point of a spectator. I'd also rather see Liquid Tyler play EG IdrA than watch another game between Koreans when I can turn on GSL for that. Right now in the western E-Sports scene we have 6 MLGs a year to see the entire western SC2 scene play together. NASL is offering us another opportunity for that. Why are people complaining so much about it? NASL is going to grow E-Sports in the west by providing a great prize pool and not force people to move to the country the tournament HQ is in to take place in it. Foreigners are being provided an opportunity to not have to spend a ton of money moving to entire different country, where there's a language barrier, just to play in a tournament with a nice prize pool. You would only have to commit close to a week in a foreign country to participate which is very similar to the IEM World Finals we just watched.
NASL is going to be great no matter what. Really looking forward to it. = )
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On March 16 2011 09:00 TheBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:58 Rekrul wrote:
to sit around saying 'inviting the best koreans won't be fun because the games will all be one sided blah blah' is really retarded
first of all, thats not true, foreigners do have a chance. with such money on the line it should be the best in the world and if some foreign players don't like that it's because of a combination of greed+not being good enough
the top koreans will add an insane amount of hype to the tournament, even if the top 8 ends up being 1 foreigner and all koreans. and the 'one sided game' bs?
what makes exciting tournaments is PLAYER HYPE, even more so than quality of games. we could see a 5 hour long 3-2 back and forth series between incontrol and pokebunny with 5k minerals in the bank each warring it out with armies of forces when they get a chance to box macro them out, sure, maybe some people like that. but the average fan would rather see the best player doing something cool that wins a quick game than that.
remember sc1 in korea. iloveoov, nada, boxer etc all went on insane streaks where every win was incredibly easy and the fans LOVED it. and some of the most exciting games in history were boxer proxy raxing so don't give me b.s. about 'we want good games' in any tournament you will have rape games, and you will have close games. obviously the end game would be for foreigners to get better and be able to compete with the koreans then we can have some real hype.
it's good that NASL creates incentive for players to raise their level by offering such big prizes, but to restrict the best players from playing saying 'stay in ur country be happy u have gsl' so that some white boy can win is the dumbest fucking thing i have ever heard Couldnt have said it better myself , how on earth do people want e-sports to grow if they want to kill the competition , so their friends can have a shot at some extra bucks...
I was going to make a long post to rekrul, but instead I'll respond to this because it's short and shows the different mind sets well.
People who are in favor of this separation.... don't want competition killed. We (or at the very least, I) want competition killed for now in order to facilitate more in the future. Having the absolute best players in the world play right now might facilitate our desire to see the best games... but in my opinion it lessens the chance of these tournaments existing down the road. People should want to see foreigners strive to compete and stay on par with the Koreans for as long as sc2 remains fun, which should be for the foreseeable future, not just a couple of NASL's.
Granted, I could be wrong, but so could you. I doubt either side has any real data to back up their points when it comes to "growing esports."
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People here assume allowing 'unlimited' amount of Koreans would result in NASL being flooded by Koreans.
The truth is, top Korean will stay in GSL because there are more prestige and money along with it. This is simple economics, if any koreans were to show up to NASL, it's going to be the "lesser" Code S player/Top code A players who has enough sponsorships to be flown to LA.
I feel that they shouldn't even have mentioned that they were considering a "cap" on Korean participation, since they would have relatively smaller pool of Koreans to choose from compared to US players anyway.
Also those who say they enjoy MLG more so than the GSL needs to stop deluding themselves. What you enjoy is not competitive starcraft, but following certain players. It's the same logic as to why a person would watch their school's basketball team over NBA. They like the players and what they represent. But any people who truly enjoy basketball would watch the NBA.
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I can just imagine the ridicule western e-sports would get if the best Koreans were denied because; "we'd rather only invite people we know better due to their personality, even if they're ten times worse than you for the 400k prize".
This sort of mentality reminds me of some reality shows, or even WWE. I thought the idea of a Starleague was that the actual best players got to showcase their talent and get rewarded for it. Even if they crush and dominate for a few seasons. Until someone topples them and everyone is hyped to the max because of it.
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On March 16 2011 09:05 PsYLaR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 09:03 DiaBoLuS wrote:On March 16 2011 09:00 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:52 dtz wrote:On March 16 2011 08:51 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:48 Tachion wrote:On March 16 2011 08:42 Pokebunny wrote:On March 16 2011 08:40 teamsolid wrote:On March 16 2011 08:31 Rokk wrote:On March 16 2011 08:28 hmunkey wrote:
[quote]
No, you're expressing what you'd like to see as a potential competitor. If it's for NA only, you have a chance of getting it. If it's for Koreans you have no chance of ever competing in the NASL.
Don't lie.
I don't agree with Pokebunny at all, but at least refute his arguments instead of making up bullshit when he has stated the opposite multiple times. It doesn't matter what he states. Even if he's not going to make it in this season, if Koreans start getting invited, the chances of him ever competing in the future (in case his skill rises) will still be hurt. Subconsciously, I'm sure he knows this and all this other reasoning is just to justify these gut feelings. Not at all. I much preferred watching MLG last year than GSL. You've stated about 10 times in this thread so far that you like NA Starcraft more than KR, but you have not once yet explained why. Would you mind indulging your critics with an actual reason for why you find NA Starcraft matches more entertaining? I feel more interested in the players. They're more familiar and I enjoy watching them grow and compete against eachother. They're people I have opinions on other than their gameplay. On that note, what is your opinion about European players, especially eastern european ones like White-Ra and Dimaga Kinda on the fence. They deserve the chance to compete but I'm not particularly interested in them. living in the dream that only NA exists to be a noticable player? he just want hes friends to have a chance to get in....
Well, Eastern europeans have always seemed really disconnected from the rest of the non-korean world. I'd love to see them be more accessible, but at this moment, I don't know much about them.
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On March 16 2011 08:58 Rekrul wrote:
to sit around saying 'inviting the best koreans won't be fun because the games will all be one sided blah blah' is really retarded
first of all, thats not true, foreigners do have a chance. with such money on the line it should be the best in the world and if some foreign players don't like that it's because of a combination of greed+not being good enough
the top koreans will add an insane amount of hype to the tournament, even if the top 8 ends up being 1 foreigner and all koreans. and the 'one sided game' bs?
what makes exciting tournaments is PLAYER HYPE, even more so than quality of games. we could see a 5 hour long 3-2 back and forth series between incontrol and pokebunny with 5k minerals in the bank each warring it out with armies of forces when they get a chance to box macro them out, sure, maybe some people like that. but the average fan would rather see the best player doing something cool that wins a quick game than that.
remember sc1 in korea. iloveoov, nada, boxer etc all went on insane streaks where every win was incredibly easy and the fans LOVED it. and some of the most exciting games in history were boxer proxy raxing so don't give me b.s. about 'we want good games' in any tournament you will have rape games, and you will have close games. obviously the end game would be for foreigners to get better and be able to compete with the koreans then we can have some real hype.
it's good that NASL creates incentive for players to raise their level by offering such big prizes, but to restrict the best players from playing saying 'stay in ur country be happy u have gsl' so that some white boy can win is the dumbest fucking thing i have ever heard
i really cannot see how people can disagree with this.
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On March 16 2011 08:57 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:48 PHedemark wrote:On March 16 2011 08:32 infinity2k9 wrote:On March 16 2011 08:30 PHedemark wrote:
What few people in this thread actually grasp, is that the NASL is a typical North American project. They want the best players in the world, and possibly also the biggest names in the world. But not on the expense of their North American superstars.
Uhh if you limit to 'North American' superstars then theres no point in this whole thing. I think most people on here wouldn't pay for it at all, and the North Americans themselves would never even have to further themselves or play any better. How can you even think Grubby is somehow more marketable to a wider audience? He's a typical nerd. I don't know what to say if you can't see how or why Grubby is easier to market than 95% of the other players who have applied for the NASL. The guy is a two time "Olympic Champion", has won countless of other championships, is a head star for several computer peripheral companies, is well spoken, intelligent and even featured in a documentary with Kasparov. It's not so much about the looks (oh well, it's also that), but more about how you market yourself and what you do. And in all that, Grubby is a superstar. He handles himself that way. I don't think you can find a player that's more available to his fans than he is. Sorry actually i misread who we were talking about. He is a big name yes and he should be in if his skills are around the top players, which i expect they would be. For some reason i thought you meant another player beginning with G, my apologizes. However i still disagree with a lot of your argument, as theres no evidence to suggest SC2 is going to be marketable to anyone except SC2 players. Even then i don't see why non-SC2 players will have some kind of bias against any foreigners, if you get into watching the game at all you must be interested in the game. The North American and European players are generally not charismatic anyway, and besides even when you do actually see the players they are inside a booth sitting at a computer. I don't see where the characterization of the players is even supposed to be showcased, there's probably going to be interviews but most foreigners just say the usual stuff as Koreans.
No harm done.
Anyway it's not that there is evidence that SC2 is going to be marketable to people outside the SC2 sphere - and it might not even be what the NASL is trying to do. But you have to step back and remember that this is not a European league. You probably watch football (yes, the real FOOTball) and as a UK citizen you're probably used to that most of the athletes you see at the top tier are not Englishmen - not even in your own league.
It's exactly the opposite in the US, and consequently things are seen differently in their culture. That's why I think it will be hard to market a league that's run in their own back yard without any North American "heroes". There needs to be foreigners, but they need to not outshine the Americans.
Outside of North America we rarely give a flying, and if you give the comments a brief look down the page, you'll see a certain picture starting to form.... Only slightly, but still ;-)
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On March 16 2011 08:51 Node wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:42 hmunkey wrote:
So, tell me, should the Olympics ban the Keyan running team? Should the World Cup ban the Brazilian national team? What about the NHL disallowing Canadian teams from competing?
How is NASL banning Koreans any different? This is a silly comparison to make. We're talking about the North American Starcraft League, designed to encourage a rise in the popularity of esports in the West through familiar faces, a high (not "the highest") standard of competition, and relatable players. It's not a World Cup, or an Olympics. That honor would go to the TSL.
I don't think many people would find NASL interesting if its goal was to promote Joe Starcraft from down the street. You may be friends with him and he may be good (not top50 world, though), but he isn't someone I would ever want to pay money to watch play.
It is likely in NASL's best interest to find the balance in how many Koreans should be invited. If too many top Korean's compete you run the risk of making a fool out of all NA organizations and they could potentially lose sponsorship activities. If the NASL has very few of the top Korean talent they also run the risk of turning off viewers with their "inferior" player pool.
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I didnt read everyone of the 24 pages of this thread so forgive me if this question already been answered:
How would the koreans play against the eu/americans? This is an online tourny except the finals I understand, right? If they played on eu/us servers wouldnt that cause a lot of lag? How about eu vs americans?
If they're allowed to play while playing from the comfort of their practice houses I have no doubt the nasl will sooner or later be dominated by koreans. I think if they had to be living in the usa or something it would be more sensible, otherwise it defeats the purpose of having a "north-american" starleague. I think it should be open to any koreans that are residing in north-america (or eu).
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On March 16 2011 09:05 Ves wrote:
I disagree with Jinro, I don't think it's the same. In order to compete in GSL you have to move to South Korea and spend months there. For the NASL it would be a week. Some people don't have the money or the support to move to another country, the TLAF guys were lucky to have both money to back them and the support of oGs.
Also this is called the "North American Star League" and they've said many times they want to grow E-Sports in the west. So then shouldn't the players be players from the "west". Personally I root for any foreigners in GSL no matter who their playing and the same will be true in the upcoming TSL. Why not give the foreign scene a chance to shine in this one of many available tournaments?
I agree with Pokebunny. He's presenting a rational argument from the point of a spectator. I'd also rather see Liquid Tyler play EG IdrA than watch another game between Koreans when I can turn on GSL for that. Right now in the western E-Sports scene we have 6 MLGs a year to see the entire western SC2 scene play together. NASL is offering us another opportunity for that. Why are people complaining so much about it? NASL is going to grow E-Sports in the west by providing a great prize pool and not force people to move to the country the tournament HQ is in to take place in it. Foreigners are being provided an opportunity to not have to spend a ton of money moving to entire different country, where there's a language barrier, just to play in a tournament with a nice prize pool. You would only have to commit close to a week in a foreign country to participate which is very similar to the IEM World Finals we just watched.
NASL is going to be great no matter what. Really looking forward to it. = ) IdrA and Tyler will still be able to compete if it's open because they're actually good. The issue at hand is should players like ST_Ace be banned from NASL so NA/EU nobodys with no tourney results can play?
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Do we really want to see a white champion bad enough to rig invites? Invite the best who want in, no matter their origin. or keep it to NA citizens only, but don't pick and choose.
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On March 16 2011 09:07 Whole wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:58 Rekrul wrote:
to sit around saying 'inviting the best koreans won't be fun because the games will all be one sided blah blah' is really retarded
first of all, thats not true, foreigners do have a chance. with such money on the line it should be the best in the world and if some foreign players don't like that it's because of a combination of greed+not being good enough
the top koreans will add an insane amount of hype to the tournament, even if the top 8 ends up being 1 foreigner and all koreans. and the 'one sided game' bs?
what makes exciting tournaments is PLAYER HYPE, even more so than quality of games. we could see a 5 hour long 3-2 back and forth series between incontrol and pokebunny with 5k minerals in the bank each warring it out with armies of forces when they get a chance to box macro them out, sure, maybe some people like that. but the average fan would rather see the best player doing something cool that wins a quick game than that.
remember sc1 in korea. iloveoov, nada, boxer etc all went on insane streaks where every win was incredibly easy and the fans LOVED it. and some of the most exciting games in history were boxer proxy raxing so don't give me b.s. about 'we want good games' in any tournament you will have rape games, and you will have close games. obviously the end game would be for foreigners to get better and be able to compete with the koreans then we can have some real hype.
it's good that NASL creates incentive for players to raise their level by offering such big prizes, but to restrict the best players from playing saying 'stay in ur country be happy u have gsl' so that some white boy can win is the dumbest fucking thing i have ever heard i really cannot see how people can disagree with this.
Fair enough. Rekrul has made me seen more of the other side, I still stand by pretty much all I said, but I think it will be awesome either way.
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IMO, if the NASL doesn't do it's best to invite the best players in the world (which just happen to be mostly koreans at this point), then it will be forever doomed to be labeled as the minor leagues. Whether or not they are ok with this as long as people still watch, that's up to them, but I'd prefer otherwise.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On March 16 2011 09:04 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 08:58 Rekrul wrote:
to sit around saying 'inviting the best koreans won't be fun because the games will all be one sided blah blah' is really retarded
first of all, thats not true, foreigners do have a chance. with such money on the line it should be the best in the world and if some foreign players don't like that it's because of a combination of greed+not being good enough
the top koreans will add an insane amount of hype to the tournament, even if the top 8 ends up being 1 foreigner and all koreans. and the 'one sided game' bs?
what makes exciting tournaments is PLAYER HYPE, even more so than quality of games. we could see a 5 hour long 3-2 back and forth series between incontrol and pokebunny with 5k minerals in the bank each warring it out with armies of forces when they get a chance to box macro them out, sure, maybe some people like that. but the average fan would rather see the best player doing something cool that wins a quick game than that.
remember sc1 in korea. iloveoov, nada, boxer etc all went on insane streaks where every win was incredibly easy and the fans LOVED it. and some of the most exciting games in history were boxer proxy raxing so don't give me b.s. about 'we want good games' in any tournament you will have rape games, and you will have close games. obviously the end game would be for foreigners to get better and be able to compete with the koreans then we can have some real hype.
it's good that NASL creates incentive for players to raise their level by offering such big prizes, but to restrict the best players from playing saying 'stay in ur country be happy u have gsl' so that some white boy can win is the dumbest fucking thing i have ever heard At the same time a lot of the hype will come from having those awesome players playing vs. the best NA and EU have to offer. 40 Koreans isn't going to make for a more exciting tournament even if they are the best players. I really think something like 15 Koreans is the way to go.
I totally agree since it is invite they shouldn't completely stack the field with koreans. And yeah, since foreigners totally suck compared to koreans right now, invite is the best way for NASL to do it in terms of growing their business and gaining interest...but lets just hope the skill level of foreigners is one day near par with koreans so that normal tournaments can be held where everyone has an equal chance of qualifying.
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On March 16 2011 06:42 motbob wrote:
Overall, I just think the games with Koreans will be less interesting. Watching several of the very best Koreans dominate while giving a polite interview without forming relationships with foreign players or fans is not something that appeals to me as an American NASL spectator.
Such a interesting topic with so many points to discuss so I'll only address this one.
I don't think this is a entirely fair assumption to make. For one the language barrier and culture alone makes it extremely difficult for Koreans and foreign players to form relationships, etc. Also I would point out the current SC2 scene in korea is already far more established than that of the current foreign scene. They have team houses, practice regularly as a team which allows them to build chemistry easily, develop bonds, etc. Despite there being lots of foreign teams, most of them do not live together and practice together on a regular basis. It is done over bnet which is a tremendous difference IMO.
Basically I'm saying I don't believe the koreans progamers only care about making money and nothing else. I mean just look at Jinro and Huk who's being in Korea for a while and from what I've heard, oGs was extremely accomodating and they've become good friends. Even had soccer matches between teams, etc. So given a opportunity (and I'm not just talking about one time things like IEM), I'm sure there would be Koreans willing to move out of country to play with foreigners.
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BEST PLAYERS
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I can't really decide myself one way or the other.
The arguments are mostly valid for either side, but NASL should choose what they really want to be. If they want to be a world championship equivalent and compete with the GSL quality-wise, then active contact with Korean teams and their participation is pretty much a must.
If they want to be an actual North American league (rather than a global-scale league that is just organized in NA) focused entirely on growing the scene in NA/USA, then what Pokebunny said has merit.
Personally, I also enjoyed MLGs more than GSL (with the exception of Jinro, Nada, Boxer and July games) simply because I feel a stronger connection with most of the players, so the outcome or pretty much every series is more important to me because I always care about one player more and want him to win, which generates entertainment for me.
GSL can have pretty cool games and players can display great skill so it's (sometimes) entertaining to watch, but at the end of the day, I couldn't care less if MKP or MVP won the finals, it doesn't make any difference to me at all. I'm even more indifferent towards games in the group stage where there are players like scfou or anypro or similar random names and it's just like watching a game between some player A and player B. Might as well watch replays instead.
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I simply hope that latency and lag won't play a huge role in this league. That would be horrible.
I remember Morrow beating Ret in clanwar and everyone was pointing at the latency, that takes away much excitement out of the league.
That issue is not Korean-exclusive, though.
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I hope NASL allows the koreans who wish to participate to do it. Exclusion of Koreans who want to play in NASL for any reason (games being one side zomg they will rape everyone not fun ...etc etc) would only further the divide between Koreans and the West.
The best thing for esports in the West is to let any Korean who wants to come and play, play.
How is this not obvious to anyone else? Yea. Koreans might all rape everyone the first season. Hell, they might even do it the second. But they are going to be doing it here. Playing all of the foreigners and sooner or later, maybe the 3rd..or 4th season...The divide will get lower..and lower and lower and so on until the best of the best in the whole world is a mix or american/european/korean dudes.
I would only advocate maybe requiring them to spend a little longer in the US (instead of online) so they have to train here (possible in American pro houses awww yeeaah) and then, the divide that sets koreans apart which is tied to their societal values towards playing a video game for a living. spreads here. I hope it does.
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EPT
