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On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
3-5 storms are needed to kill marauders or roaches. And the only way to have those storms is the amulet. I dont see how it can be overpowered.
If the gateway units are buffed to be on pair with MM/Roach-Hydra, then yes, please nerf the shit out of toss T3. But since toss have the crappiest T1&2 units, I can only say "WTF Blizz!?" I asure you if P had the crappiest T1&2 units, the 4 gate builds would not have gotten so popular, neither would mass blink stalkers, or the 2 base 5 gate all in.
lmao. the only reason y those builds work is because of the sheer number of units we can get in those specific timing windows, not because the units themselves are powerful. that's why people have complained that the warpgate has broken toss.
also, wtf is the 2 base 5 gate all in?
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Cool so removed templar, removed the only thing that made mothership worthwhile, minor zealot buff/
In return terran has faster battlecrusiers and has to wait a whole 30 seconds to kill you.
Really hope they update us on this, because its a terrible patch for P/Z if it goes through.
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[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:09 da_head wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
also, wtf is the 2 base 5 gate all in?[/QUOTE]
wth are you a bronze player? 2 base 5 gate all in as made popular by OGSmc
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On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
3-5 storms are needed to kill marauders or roaches. And the only way to have those storms is the amulet. I dont see how it can be overpowered.
If the gateway units are buffed to be on pair with MM/Roach-Hydra, then yes, please nerf the shit out of toss T3. But since toss have the crappiest T1&2 units, I can only say "WTF Blizz!?" I asure you if P had the crappiest T1&2 units, the 4 gate builds would not have gotten so popular, neither would mass blink stalkers, or the 2 base 5 gate all in.
That's because the sheer number of units you can push out of those builds at a quick timing. Just because a ton of crappy units can beat a lesser amount of decent ones, does not mean that P does not have the crappiest T1 and 2 units. Zealots can get kited all day until charge (which is an expensive, high-tier upgrade), one marauder beats one more expensive stalker easily, and a sentry's only use is forcefield is prevent protoss from outright dying. Having the same amount of stalkers compared to the terran's 50 mineral marines if you're four gating, obviously the stalkers should always win. Protoss gateway units are a joke past the early game without double forge upgrades or AOE support.
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On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
3-5 storms are needed to kill marauders or roaches. And the only way to have those storms is the amulet. I dont see how it can be overpowered.
If the gateway units are buffed to be on pair with MM/Roach-Hydra, then yes, please nerf the shit out of toss T3. But since toss have the crappiest T1&2 units, I can only say "WTF Blizz!?" I asure you if P had the crappiest T1&2 units, the 4 gate builds would not have gotten so popular, neither would mass blink stalkers, or the 2 base 5 gate all in.
4-Gate is an all-in, and it can be stopped easily with a stronger focus on units, instead of drones/SCVs. BUT, players who fast expand, make like 50 workers and get crushed by loads of crappy units coming out of 4 gates, shouldent be complaining.
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[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:14 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:09 da_head wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
also, wtf is the 2 base 5 gate all in?[/QUOTE]
wth are you a bronze player? 2 base 5 gate all in as made popular by OGSmc [/QUOTE]
That would be a 6 gate.
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[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:14 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:09 da_head wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
also, wtf is the 2 base 5 gate all in?[/QUOTE]
wth are you a bronze player? 2 base 5 gate all in as made popular by OGSmc [/QUOTE]
MC uses 6 gates. With 5, its not an all in, since you do not spend all your income. There is enough mins left, for an expo.
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the 2 base 5 gate all in was made popular by I believe nony? err I guess tyler sorry. I believe it was 3 gate expand, throw down 2 more gates, stop probe production very early, and just attack with 5 gates early, it was a very strong pvz all in off of 2 base, was very annoying.
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so does adding grandmasters league mean that they are going to reset the ladder? Theyre talking about end of the season stuff so im assuming they are going to reset the ladder?
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[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:14 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:09 da_head wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
also, wtf is the 2 base 5 gate all in?[/QUOTE]
wth are you a bronze player? 2 base 5 gate all in as made popular by OGSmc [/QUOTE]
that's called a 6 gate numb nuts. im a 3200 master protoss. come at me bro.
a 5 gate attack would not be constituted as an all-in as you would have enough money to tech/expand.
edit: and im not gonna bother fixing the quotes you screwed up.
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it cuts probe production early, to attack with the 5 gates, so it is an all in since even with 2 bases there is no probe production or tech going on.
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The current and past GSL is already TOTALLY dominated by Terran. It makes absolutely no sense to nerf Protoss and Zerg players even further while leaving Terran unchanged (wow bunkers need a whole 5 more secs to build!!) in terms of nerfs.
Why doesn't Blizzard finally do something about this Terran supremacy? Because it involves most of their player base?
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On March 06 2011 06:35 hunts wrote:
it cuts probe production early, to attack with the 5 gates, so it is an all in since even with 2 bases there is no probe production or tech going on.
just cuz you cut probes, doesn't mean it's an all-in (read: the fundamentals that zerg is based on). i cut probes all the timing for specific windows (especially in pvp). 2 bases can easily support 6 gates, so unless you MASSIVELY cut probes, there should be left over money to invest into other things. im not saying that no one has ever done a 5 gate all in, i'm just saying that it's a very hit or miss timing that doesn't seem very worth it. look at ogsmc now, after his first run to champion, he isn't hulk smashing with the same build anymore. it was just a timing exploit.
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the build is an all in, its referred to as an all in by everyone, I don't see why you continue trying to argue, either way you're just derailing this thread now.
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On March 06 2011 06:53 hunts wrote:
the build is an all in, its referred to as an all in by everyone, I don't see why you continue trying to argue, either way you're just derailing this thread now.
That's some pretty solid arguments right there. "Everybody calls it x, thus it is x.".
Go and read this.
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terran: blizzard's first born son
protoss: the red headed step child
zerg: old yeller
if this build goes live expect every GSL champion after this season to be terran.
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4gate 5gate builds work because of the number of units you can have at those timings, not how strong they are. It is like those situations in ZvP where all the Colossus/Racohes/Corruptors die and its a fight between Stalkers and Hydras, but the Stalkers end up winning because there are twice as many of them left as there are hydra, it doesn't actually mean that Stalkers are good against Hydra -___-
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On March 06 2011 06:09 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
3-5 storms are needed to kill marauders or roaches. And the only way to have those storms is the amulet. I dont see how it can be overpowered.
If the gateway units are buffed to be on pair with MM/Roach-Hydra, then yes, please nerf the shit out of toss T3. But since toss have the crappiest T1&2 units, I can only say "WTF Blizz!?" I asure you if P had the crappiest T1&2 units, the 4 gate builds would not have gotten so popular, neither would mass blink stalkers, or the 2 base 5 gate all in. lmao. the only reason y those builds work is because of the sheer number of units we can get in those specific timing windows, not because the units themselves are powerful. that's why people have complained that the warpgate has broken toss. also, wtf is the 2 base 5 gate all in?
This made me laugh.... WhiteRa even showed in several games that - if you hold back on stalkers - you can actually 1 base - 5 gate all in... There is NO SUCH THING as a 2base - 5 gate all in... I even reckon the 2base - 6 gate is NOT an all in unless you go really stalker heavy with forges...
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What storm does to bio is what essentially every unit in the game does to gateway units. If they're going to take amulet out, they need to make it so that stalkers don't completely blow against pretty much every unit and they need to fix the fact that after 6 minutes the rewards for zealots getting in to the opponent's ranged units are not nearly as good as they need to be considering the damage they take to get there.
The hard part is doing this so that 4gate doesn't get any/much stronger.
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On March 06 2011 06:42 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:35 hunts wrote:
it cuts probe production early, to attack with the 5 gates, so it is an all in since even with 2 bases there is no probe production or tech going on. just cuz you cut probes, doesn't mean it's an all-in (read: the fundamentals that zerg is based on). i cut probes all the timing for specific windows (especially in pvp). 2 bases can easily support 6 gates, so unless you MASSIVELY cut probes, there should be left over money to invest into other things. im not saying that no one has ever done a 5 gate all in, i'm just saying that it's a very hit or miss timing that doesn't seem very worth it. look at ogsmc now, after his first run to champion, he isn't hulk smashing with the same build anymore. it was just a timing exploit.
The build cut probes at 16 per mineral patch (x2), and only 6 for gas. With no additional probes for 3rd saturation or tech, the attack is very hit or miss. It can either be an easy victory or a crushing defeat. If it fails I usually just transition into 2 Robo Colossus all-in mode and see if I can try and get myself back in the game. Usually not.
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EPT
