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On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
3-5 storms are needed to kill marauders or roaches. And the only way to have those storms is the amulet. I dont see how it can be overpowered.
If the gateway units are buffed to be on pair with MM/Roach-Hydra, then yes, please nerf the shit out of toss T3. But since toss have the crappiest T1&2 units, I can only say "WTF Blizz!?" I asure you if P had the crappiest T1&2 units, the 4 gate builds would not have gotten so popular, neither would mass blink stalkers, or the 2 base 5 gate all in.
Well, think for a second and come back. Ok now, do you know why it's called 4 gate? Because you need 4 gateways!! It's not the actual unit that makes the build strong, it's the sudden burst of massive AMOUNT of unit that makes that makes it strong. If you looked at any chart, Stalker is like one of the worst unit in the game. It is decent early game is completely crap end-game wise. Zealot can be kited indefinitively by Marauders (a unit that they should be good at) until protoss gets charge.
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Blizzard u mess up my fg...
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q9kBu.jpg)
User was warned for this post.
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Once again I'm assured that I'll never have to change my signature.
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im very curious in the patch notes it says the units leaving the vortex are now untargetable and immune to attacks, does that mean they can attack for those 1.5 seconds? or is that how long it takes for the to leave the animation and both units attack at the same time?
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On March 06 2011 06:14 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2011 06:04 hunts wrote:On March 06 2011 05:40 IVN wrote:
3-5 storms are needed to kill marauders or roaches. And the only way to have those storms is the amulet. I dont see how it can be overpowered.
If the gateway units are buffed to be on pair with MM/Roach-Hydra, then yes, please nerf the shit out of toss T3. But since toss have the crappiest T1&2 units, I can only say "WTF Blizz!?" I asure you if P had the crappiest T1&2 units, the 4 gate builds would not have gotten so popular, neither would mass blink stalkers, or the 2 base 5 gate all in. That's because the sheer number of units you can push out of those builds at a quick timing. Just because a ton of crappy units can beat a lesser amount of decent ones, does not mean that P does not have the crappiest T1 and 2 units. Zealots can get kited all day until charge (which is an expensive, high-tier upgrade), one marauder beats one more expensive stalker easily, and a sentry's only use is forcefield is prevent protoss from outright dying. Having the same amount of stalkers compared to the terran's 50 mineral marines if you're four gating, obviously the stalkers should always win. Protoss gateway units are a joke past the early game without double forge upgrades or AOE support.
TRUTH. 4gate, 5gate all-in, and blink stalkers are strategies that exist only because you can pump a TON of units very early in order to overrun your opponent.
Protoss tier one units cant hold up vs Terran MM or even zerg speedling roach
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what is with people saying protoss can warp in "wave after wave" of high templar?
do you realize that templar cost ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FUCKING GAS?!!?!?
then add to that the fact that protoss is UNDISPUTEDLY the most gas-heavy race in the game, and it becomes clear that high templar cannot simply appear en masse repeatedly and infinity-storm your army.
and if you dont believe me about protoss being the most gas heavy:
stalker: 50 gas (twice that of a roach or a marauder)
sentry: 100 gas (FOUR times that of a roach or marauder, TWICE that of a hydra, same as a MUTALISK)
colossus: 200 gas
immortal: 100 gas
void ray: 150 (more than a banshee, viking, muta, corruptor, etc etc)
phoenix: 100 (more than a viking, same as a muta)
high templar: 150
archon: 300
mothership: 400
carrier: 250
not to mention every tech building costs 100 to 200 gas
twilight council: 100
templar archives: 200
robo facility: 100
stargate: 150 (50% more than a starport)
robo bay: 200
fleet beacon: 200
and every upgrade costs 150 or 200 gas
blink: 150
charge: 200
psi storm: 200 (as opposed to things like fungal growht <-- FREE, and emp <---ALSO FREE)
khaydarin amulet: 150 (whereas the same upgrade for terran ghosts is 100)
graviton catapult: 150
thermal lance: 200
POINT BEING: if a protoss is able to spend 300 gas warping in two templars to storm a mineral line and MAYBE kill a few workers, he either
A. cant afford it and will die if you engage him (since he is down 2 storms)
B. is on a ridiculous number of bases and can fund such cost-ineffective tactics, in which case he deserves to win and the removal of this upgrade is not necessary
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Would supprise me, if the kaydarin change go on the live server. They shoudl think about a slight Collossus nerf. -1 Range or something.
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On March 07 2011 07:48 lilky wrote:
what is with people saying protoss can warp in "wave after wave" of high templar?
do you realize that templar cost ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FUCKING GAS?!!?!?
then add to that the fact that protoss is UNDISPUTEDLY the most gas-heavy race in the game, and it becomes clear that high templar cannot simply appear en masse repeatedly and infinity-storm your army.
and if you dont believe me about protoss being the most gas heavy:
stalker: 50 gas (twice that of a roach or a marauder)
sentry: 100 gas (FOUR times that of a roach or marauder, TWICE that of a hydra, same as a MUTALISK)
colossus: 200 gas
immortal: 100 gas
void ray: 150 (more than a banshee, viking, muta, corruptor, etc etc)
phoenix: 100 (more than a viking, same as a muta)
high templar: 150
archon: 300
mothership: 400
carrier: 250
not to mention every tech building costs 100 to 200 gas
twilight council: 100
templar archives: 200
robo facility: 100
stargate: 150 (50% more than a starport)
robo bay: 200
fleet beacon: 200
and every upgrade costs 150 or 200 gas
blink: 150
charge: 200
psi storm: 200 (as opposed to things like fungal growht <-- FREE, and emp <---ALSO FREE)
khaydarin amulet: 150 (whereas the same upgrade for terran ghosts is 100)
graviton catapult: 150
thermal lance: 200
POINT BEING: if a protoss is able to spend 300 gas warping in two templars to storm a mineral line and MAYBE kill a few workers, he either
A. cant afford it and will die if you engage him (since he is down 2 storms)
B. is on a ridiculous number of bases and can fund such cost-ineffective tactics, in which case he deserves to win and the removal of this upgrade is not necessary
Quoted for truth. And seriously, if Templar harass is considered OP, how does everyone feel about blue flame hellion harass? Cause I think everyone knows which one is more cost effective.
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On March 07 2011 07:55 Real-ISU wrote:
Would supprise me, if the kaydarin change go on the live server. They shoudl think about a slight Collossus nerf. -1 Range or something.
I'd be up for that. I'm absolutely sick of playing colossus now.
I just got demoted from diamond rank 1 to plat rank 10 yesterday because I avoid playing standard (i.e. colossus) these days. Never 4 gated much either, though when I do I tend to win.
With a colossus nerf it'll become apparent that protoss is otherwise horribly lacking right now, especially in entertainment value. Then maybe if it turns out that protoss can't win without colossus being too strong, they'll buff something else.
Either way right now they're barking up the wrong tree.
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not to question the power of HT warp in, but people are justified to compare with blue flame hellion harassment which is in my opinion the strongest harassing unit in the game
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Buddy and I were talking about this yesterday. Did you know, terran has the only upgrade that benefits multiple unit (except for weapon and armor upgrades of course). Not only that but marines and mauders each get 2 upgrades. Stim Conc and marine shield.
Conc imo should be out of the game. WHy does the maurder (a slow unit with slow attack speed) need an ability to speed them up and another ability that slows the enemy down. Please dont say BUT THEY DONT SHOOT AIR!!! no one feels bad for you, because you have the best and cheapest AA unit in the game that requires zero tech.
Not only that but these upgrades are cheap and require zero tech to get, while protoss actually has to tech and spend way more to get upgrades that quite frankly are not as good as the terran one. and before use OMG BLINK, keep in mind mass maurders or thors have zero problems with stalkers and late game no amount of blink micro can make stalkers beat MM ball with out a T3 unit.
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When Protoss got dropped or muta harassed in BW they couldn't storm right away, even with Khaydarin Amulet they spawned with 13 extra energy instead of the 25 needed for a storm. (although they got +50 max energy) However, even if the amulet gave +25 energy in BW toss would have to be very lucky to get a storm off right away since there's no warp gate. In SC2 templar can always insta-storm if you have an upgrade. Khaydarin shouldn't be removed but shouldn't be left as is either, I don't see anything wrong with going back to the BW version.
On March 07 2011 08:36 JiYan wrote:
not to question the power of HT warp in, but people are justified to compare with blue flame hellion harassment which is in my opinion the strongest harassing unit in the game
Blue flame hellion requires you to line up your hellions with workers which is more difficult than pressing t and clicking on the dropped units. If anything I'd compare BF Hellions to reaver drops, very effective but not the easiest form of harassment.
As for Colossus, let's look at Zerg in BW. (a weird comparison at first, but note that IEM winner Ace played Zerg in BW and Toss in SC2) Zerg often makes mutas in the midgame which are used to harass mineral lines with good micro much like Phoenixes. This is because Zerg needs to put pressure on because they don't have much to stop a midgame push. Toss can use Phoenixes to delay pushes in a similar fashion but they also have Colossi which can stop midgame pushes. Think about it this way, if Zerg had ultras at lair tech in BW, they could still build mutas to delay pushes but it wouldn't be necessary cause ultras could stop pushes. BW ultras are sort of like colossi in that they form the center of a "death ball" and one race can deal with them easier than the other race can.
Toss has the weakest early game units but they also can delay early pushes with Phoenix harassment or force fielding, so is it really necessary that they also get Colossus fairly early in the game? There were plenty of death balls in BW, look at late game TvPs, PvZs, or ZvsBioT. But in all those matchups the race with the death ball would win slightly under 50% of the time since it was hard to get to the death ball since it usually came late game on 4 gas.
As far as Terran openings go:
There's nothing wrong inherently with Terran being ahead or even no matter what opening they do. Look at PvT in BW, especially 12 nexus, if Toss got bunker rushed and lost their fast expand they were even, and if they defended it they were ahead. However, a late game Toss army could not beat a late game Terran army heads up. Late game SC2 terran armies are weak but they can still win a lot of heads up battles which shouldn't be the case if Terran always comes out ahead in the opening. I understand that larva inject is meant to keep Zerg reinforcing at a rate that Terran can't keep up with but it doesn't feel that way.
I don't know, I feel that having a race with weaker late-game that always comes out ahead or even in economy no matter the opening is more interesting than having roughly equal late-game armies and openings where either player can be ahead.
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On March 07 2011 08:25 Protein wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 07:48 lilky wrote:
what is with people saying protoss can warp in "wave after wave" of high templar?
do you realize that templar cost ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FUCKING GAS?!!?!?
then add to that the fact that protoss is UNDISPUTEDLY the most gas-heavy race in the game, and it becomes clear that high templar cannot simply appear en masse repeatedly and infinity-storm your army.
and if you dont believe me about protoss being the most gas heavy:
stalker: 50 gas (twice that of a roach or a marauder)
sentry: 100 gas (FOUR times that of a roach or marauder, TWICE that of a hydra, same as a MUTALISK)
colossus: 200 gas
immortal: 100 gas
void ray: 150 (more than a banshee, viking, muta, corruptor, etc etc)
phoenix: 100 (more than a viking, same as a muta)
high templar: 150
archon: 300
mothership: 400
carrier: 250
not to mention every tech building costs 100 to 200 gas
twilight council: 100
templar archives: 200
robo facility: 100
stargate: 150 (50% more than a starport)
robo bay: 200
fleet beacon: 200
and every upgrade costs 150 or 200 gas
blink: 150
charge: 200
psi storm: 200 (as opposed to things like fungal growht <-- FREE, and emp <---ALSO FREE)
khaydarin amulet: 150 (whereas the same upgrade for terran ghosts is 100)
graviton catapult: 150
thermal lance: 200
POINT BEING: if a protoss is able to spend 300 gas warping in two templars to storm a mineral line and MAYBE kill a few workers, he either
A. cant afford it and will die if you engage him (since he is down 2 storms)
B. is on a ridiculous number of bases and can fund such cost-ineffective tactics, in which case he deserves to win and the removal of this upgrade is not necessary Quoted for truth. And seriously, if Templar harass is considered OP, how does everyone feel about blue flame hellion harass? Cause I think everyone knows which one is more cost effective.
Quoted for inaccurate truth, comparing a single roach to a single stalker for gas comparisons? Hardly accurate. how about we take a 200 toss deathball add it all up and do the same for every other races death ball and THEN see what things look like.
also comparing to compleetly different spells? inaccurate! if fungal is so awesome what about trading? give storm to infestors and they have to buy it, and give FG for free to Templars. 20 bucks says you wont make that trade
i like the "maybe kill a few" workers with storm.
lets not stretch the turth to prove a point, if storming mineral lines werent really effective it wouldnt happen
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On March 07 2011 09:00 jalstar wrote:
When Protoss got dropped or muta harassed in BW they couldn't storm right away, even with Khaydarin Amulet they spawned with 13 extra energy instead of the 25 needed for a storm. (although they got +50 max energy) However, even if the amulet gave +25 energy in BW toss would have to be very lucky to get a storm off right away since there's no warp gate. In SC2 templar can always insta-storm if you have an upgrade. Khaydarin shouldn't be removed but shouldn't be left as is either, I don't see anything wrong with going back to the BW version.
I think in BW it was a lot easier to lay out bases in a way that hindered drops, excluding small units like zerglings and marines which walked between most buildings. There were also generally a lot more buildings, so it took a lot longer for drops to maneuver.
In SC2 most of the maps have that huge wide opening at the back which makes drops a lot more effective tactically, though drops are much less common to see due to economic differences.
Also, units like dragoons and zealots were cost-effective and mobile enough that while you couldn't simply warp them in, you could easily walk them to whichever base you felt was most vulnerable. Those units are especially mineral-heavy, so you're free to use your gas for whatever tech you felt was necessary.
In SC2, having fewer enough units in your death ball to fend off a drop elsewhere makes your death ball much weaker, because each unit class in the ball plays a significant role in fighting against other units. It's a severe case of the sum being greater than the whole.
tl;dr: The fundamental problem is that SC2 protoss relies way too heavily on the death ball, which despite the mobility of warp gates is rather brittle and immobile. Stationing stray units at expansions is neither as effective nor safe as it was in BW, and that's what protoss needs the amulet for.
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On March 07 2011 07:48 lilky wrote:
what is with people saying protoss can warp in "wave after wave" of high templar?
do you realize that templar cost ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FUCKING GAS?!!?!?
then add to that the fact that protoss is UNDISPUTEDLY the most gas-heavy race in the game, and it becomes clear that high templar cannot simply appear en masse repeatedly and infinity-storm your army.
and if you dont believe me about protoss being the most gas heavy:
stalker: 50 gas (twice that of a roach or a marauder)
sentry: 100 gas (FOUR times that of a roach or marauder, TWICE that of a hydra, same as a MUTALISK)
colossus: 200 gas
immortal: 100 gas
void ray: 150 (more than a banshee, viking, muta, corruptor, etc etc)
phoenix: 100 (more than a viking, same as a muta)
high templar: 150
archon: 300
mothership: 400
carrier: 250
not to mention every tech building costs 100 to 200 gas
twilight council: 100
templar archives: 200
robo facility: 100
stargate: 150 (50% more than a starport)
robo bay: 200
fleet beacon: 200
and every upgrade costs 150 or 200 gas
blink: 150
charge: 200
psi storm: 200 (as opposed to things like fungal growht <-- FREE, and emp <---ALSO FREE)
khaydarin amulet: 150 (whereas the same upgrade for terran ghosts is 100)
graviton catapult: 150
thermal lance: 200
POINT BEING: if a protoss is able to spend 300 gas warping in two templars to storm a mineral line and MAYBE kill a few workers, he either
A. cant afford it and will die if you engage him (since he is down 2 storms)
B. is on a ridiculous number of bases and can fund such cost-ineffective tactics, in which case he deserves to win and the removal of this upgrade is not necessary
Zerg is actually more gas dependent than Protoss. Sure you can dispute me, and say " Unit X1-X10 all have high gas requirements per unit" And that would be true statement.
Though Zerg are more dependent on gas, cause our units are less efficient per their gas cost.
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On March 07 2011 09:30 Cyanocyst wrote:
Though Zerg are more dependent on gas, cause our units are less efficient per their gas cost.
Roaches are ridiculously good against all gateway units and they cost 75/25 for fucks sake. how is that not efficient?!
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If we're comparing costs here, shouldn't we consider that 300 gas worth of HT's can kill ~ number of mutas? How about 300 supply of hydras/corruptors/roaches compared to 200 supply of stalker/sentry/colossus (or HT)? Or 3-4 blanket storms slaughtering entire bio armies?
Infesters are great but I'd take storm any day and the change is great for balance.
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On March 07 2011 09:36 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 09:30 Cyanocyst wrote:
Though Zerg are more dependent on gas, cause our units are less efficient per their gas cost.
Roaches are ridiculously good against all gateway units and they cost 75/25 for fucks sake. how is that not efficient?! Roach is literally the only gas efficient unit zerg has and its probably one of the worst in supply efficiency to be realistic.
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You guys are being ridiculous. Every race needs gas badly. That's why it's in the game. It's the limiting resource.
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On March 07 2011 09:43 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 09:36 da_head wrote:On March 07 2011 09:30 Cyanocyst wrote:
Though Zerg are more dependent on gas, cause our units are less efficient per their gas cost.
Roaches are ridiculously good against all gateway units and they cost 75/25 for fucks sake. how is that not efficient?! Roach is literally the only gas efficient unit zerg has and its probably one of the worst in supply efficiency to be realistic.
1. How is any of this pertinent to the discussion about 1.3?
2. All these arguments are quantitative; you should be able to back them up with numbers.
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EPT
