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On March 07 2011 07:48 lilky wrote:
what is with people saying protoss can warp in "wave after wave" of high templar?
do you realize that templar cost ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FUCKING GAS?!!?!?
then add to that the fact that protoss is UNDISPUTEDLY the most gas-heavy race in the game, and it becomes clear that high templar cannot simply appear en masse repeatedly and infinity-storm your army.
and if you dont believe me about protoss being the most gas heavy:
stalker: 50 gas (twice that of a roach or a marauder)
sentry: 100 gas (FOUR times that of a roach or marauder, TWICE that of a hydra, same as a MUTALISK)
colossus: 200 gas
immortal: 100 gas
void ray: 150 (more than a banshee, viking, muta, corruptor, etc etc)
phoenix: 100 (more than a viking, same as a muta)
high templar: 150
archon: 300
mothership: 400
carrier: 250
not to mention every tech building costs 100 to 200 gas
twilight council: 100
templar archives: 200
robo facility: 100
stargate: 150 (50% more than a starport)
robo bay: 200
fleet beacon: 200
and every upgrade costs 150 or 200 gas
blink: 150
charge: 200
psi storm: 200 (as opposed to things like fungal growht <-- FREE, and emp <---ALSO FREE)
khaydarin amulet: 150 (whereas the same upgrade for terran ghosts is 100)
graviton catapult: 150
thermal lance: 200
POINT BEING: if a protoss is able to spend 300 gas warping in two templars to storm a mineral line and MAYBE kill a few workers, he either
A. cant afford it and will die if you engage him (since he is down 2 storms)
B. is on a ridiculous number of bases and can fund such cost-ineffective tactics, in which case he deserves to win and the removal of this upgrade is not necessary
umad bro?
User was warned for this post
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I just dont get how HTs/storms are the problem. They're T3 for gods sake. They're suposed to be powerful. Sure, if T or Z mass T1, they'll get owned. BUT, thats exactly the way its supposed to be.
Fucking up HTs is just wrong. Let the lazy terrans figure out new strats involving tanks and stuff, and if that doesnt work, then nerf the HTs, but not before.
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On March 07 2011 09:58 IVN wrote:
I just dont get how HTs/storms are the problem. They're T3 for gods sake. They're suposed to be powerful. Sure, if T or Z mass T1, they'll get owned. BUT, thats exactly the way its supposed to be.
Fucking up HTs is just wrong. Let the lazy terrans figure out new strats involving tanks and stuff, and if that doesnt work, then nerf the HTs, but not before.
Terran can't engage a Protoss late game army straight up with bio, and that's ok, that's not inherently imbalanced, but bio should be a viable late game strategy, T shouldn't be forced to transition into mech, one way to do that is to make drops possible late-game by removing amulet.
Note that stim timing has been increased, this means that occasionally Protoss will be ahead after the opening. Terran's strength isn't their army, it's that they go into mid and late-game ahead or even almost all the time, with late stims vs toss they might be behind, meaning bio is useless if there's no way to drop and avoid Toss' army, the stim nerf is directly related to the amulet nerf.
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On March 07 2011 10:21 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 09:58 IVN wrote:
I just dont get how HTs/storms are the problem. They're T3 for gods sake. They're suposed to be powerful. Sure, if T or Z mass T1, they'll get owned. BUT, thats exactly the way its supposed to be.
Fucking up HTs is just wrong. Let the lazy terrans figure out new strats involving tanks and stuff, and if that doesnt work, then nerf the HTs, but not before. Terran can't engage a Protoss late game army straight up with bio, and that's ok, that's not inherently imbalanced, but bio should be a viable late game strategy, T shouldn't be forced to transition into mech, one way to do that is to make drops possible late-game by removing amulet. Note that stim timing has been increased, this means that occasionally Protoss will be ahead after the opening. Terran's strength isn't their army, it's that they go into mid and late-game ahead or even almost all the time, with late stims vs toss they might be behind, meaning bio is useless if there's no way to drop and avoid Toss' army, the stim nerf is directly related to the amulet nerf.
Why should Bio be a viable late game strategy though? Zergling/Roach and Zealot/Stalker/Sentry aren't viable late game strategies and both Zerg and Protoss have to transition into other tech just to avoid getting steamrolled by Terran Bio, its just laziness saying that Terran shouldn't have to transition into Mech play.
I understand your point about drops, but as has been mentioned time and time again, protoss has no cost efficient way of combating drops outside of warping in templar to storm. If they split their army up, they're vulnerable to getting steamrolled by the Bio Ball at the front (even with tier 3 units) and if they don't send enough to fight it, Marauders kill buildings/marines kill probes in the blink of an eye. Warping in 4-5 stalkers isnt cost efficient and isnt possible a lot of the time later in the game when the Protoss is close to the supply cap.
Leaving units sitting around in bases on the chance the Terran may drop harms the protoss army too much since it reduces the stalker numbers protecting collosus from Vikings, and cannons aren't the answer either since marauders kill them so quickly.
Im still liking Tyler's point of giving storm a cooldown, and making them wait around 5-10 seconds to storm after being warped in, it still allows them to combat drops and be a useful part of the protoss army, without a lot of the issues instant storms cause.
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On March 07 2011 09:58 IVN wrote:
I just dont get how HTs/storms are the problem. They're T3 for gods sake. They're suposed to be powerful. Sure, if T or Z mass T1, they'll get owned. BUT, thats exactly the way its supposed to be.
Fucking up HTs is just wrong. Let the lazy terrans figure out new strats involving tanks and stuff, and if that doesnt work, then nerf the HTs, but not before.
Totally agreeing with you there.
Protoss revolves around it's t3 units against Terren especially.
Most tosses rush to either high templar or collosus, to fight off the terran t1 bioball.
I don't see how it's a problem.
Honestly psi storm isn't some kind of I Win button.. 1 marauder kills a HT with amulet, and an SCV kills a HT without the amulet (I know this is a stupid example, but it gives a picture how useless HTs are without storms), whereas the ghost' emp not only does more damage (100 shields), it requires only the energy upgrade, it is produced at the same rate as HTs AND it has a pretty good bit of longer range of EMP than HTs have of feedback.. plus i's an AOE so you don't actually have to aim as carefully.
You can also compare the HT to the siege tank.. Now remember you can have some bad storms with HTs, but tanks are basically high templars with 11 range that fire off free storms in about the same rate as a storm lasts.. automatically.. also it's not a DoT, so it's harder to just tank with medivacs.. And how could I forget! siege tank damage stacks, storm doesn't.
Sorry for the wall of whine.. I guess I had that on my mind for a while.
I do believe it's sad that blizzard removed the alternative to use HTs, but I guess the robo facility is good enough to deal with MMM and mech, so HTs got a little underused.
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On March 07 2011 09:58 IVN wrote:
I just dont get how HTs/storms are the problem. They're T3 for gods sake. They're suposed to be powerful. Sure, if T or Z mass T1, they'll get owned. BUT, thats exactly the way its supposed to be.
Fucking up HTs is just wrong. Let the lazy terrans figure out new strats involving tanks and stuff, and if that doesnt work, then nerf the HTs, but not before.
Terran doesn't just "mass T1" these days. Their "T1 ball" has higher tech units, just as the Protoss ball has higher tech units. It includes Medivacs, Marines, and Ghosts in the ball as well. Saying that Terran players should just go mech is kind of like telling Protoss players to just go pure Robo. Every race mixes in LOTs of T1 units in order to make effective armies.
Edit: Admittedly Colossi are higher tech than those units, but BCs can't be sprinkled into an army and Thors are pretty ineffective until you have lots of them.
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Ironically, The way protoss beats Terrans "endgame" mechplay is by spamming out t1 units and immortals...
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On March 07 2011 11:15 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 09:58 IVN wrote:
I just dont get how HTs/storms are the problem. They're T3 for gods sake. They're suposed to be powerful. Sure, if T or Z mass T1, they'll get owned. BUT, thats exactly the way its supposed to be.
Fucking up HTs is just wrong. Let the lazy terrans figure out new strats involving tanks and stuff, and if that doesnt work, then nerf the HTs, but not before. Terran doesn't just "mass T1" these days. Their "T1 ball" has higher tech units, just as the Protoss ball has higher tech units. It includes Medivacs, Marines, and Ghosts in the ball as well. Saying that Terran players should just go mech is kind of like telling Protoss players to just go pure Robo. Every race mixes in LOTs of T1 units in order to make effective armies. Edit: Admittedly Colossi are higher tech than those units, but BCs can't be sprinkled into an army and Thors are pretty ineffective until you have lots of them.
OK first of all, no going full mech is not a bad idea. Jinro beat MC.. was it 3 times in a row(?) in GSL last season with full mech.
Terran RARELY mixes in ghosts in their mix, unless it's a EMP / marine rush.
And regarding every race mixing in lots of tier one.. not true either.
Ever heard of Roach / hydra? Stalker collosi? Mech play? These are some of the most used compositions in the game.
On March 07 2011 11:20 Dalavita wrote:
Ironically, The way protoss beats Terrans "endgame" mechplay is by spamming out t1 units and immortals...
The way protoss beats terran mech play late game is by going for carriers usually. Well the pro games I've seen of it atleast. Personally I feel like that's the place to use carriers.
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On March 07 2011 11:22 Euronyme wrote:OK first of all, no going full mech is not a bad idea. Jinro beat MC.. was it 3 times in a row(?) in GSL last season with full mech.
Terran RARELY mixes in ghosts in their mix, unless it's a EMP / marine rush.
And regarding every race mixing in lots of tier one.. not true either.
Ever heard of Roach / hydra? Stalker collosi? Mech play? These are some of the most used compositions in the game.
The Jinro MC game does not make mech viable. Look at the Squirtle/MVP game and look at how it went for a pure mech play (with 3/3 upgrades at that), getting absolutely trashed.
Also, Terran bio consists of medivacs and ghosts, those are higher than T1, and no, ghosts get used a lot.
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Why people STILL refer to that jinro vs mc while it is pretty obvious that it was not mech what gave jinro a win.
The reasons why jinro won was:
1. MC played poorly
2. positional imbalance
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On March 07 2011 11:24 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:22 Euronyme wrote:OK first of all, no going full mech is not a bad idea. Jinro beat MC.. was it 3 times in a row(?) in GSL last season with full mech.
Terran RARELY mixes in ghosts in their mix, unless it's a EMP / marine rush.
And regarding every race mixing in lots of tier one.. not true either.
Ever heard of Roach / hydra? Stalker collosi? Mech play? These are some of the most used compositions in the game. The Jinro MC game does not make mech viable. Look at the Squirtle/MVP game and look at how it went for a pure mech play (with 3/3 upgrades at that), getting absolutely trashed. Also, Terran bio consists of medivacs and ghosts, those are higher than T1, and no, ghosts get used a lot.
So the squirtle / MVP game made mech bad all of a sudden?... jeez.
Terran bio ball cosists of MMM = Marine Marauder Medivac. Ghosts are used as a counter to HTs, and honestly the good toss players going for storm before his third base can be counted on one hand.
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On March 07 2011 11:29 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:24 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 11:22 Euronyme wrote:OK first of all, no going full mech is not a bad idea. Jinro beat MC.. was it 3 times in a row(?) in GSL last season with full mech.
Terran RARELY mixes in ghosts in their mix, unless it's a EMP / marine rush.
And regarding every race mixing in lots of tier one.. not true either.
Ever heard of Roach / hydra? Stalker collosi? Mech play? These are some of the most used compositions in the game. The Jinro MC game does not make mech viable. Look at the Squirtle/MVP game and look at how it went for a pure mech play (with 3/3 upgrades at that), getting absolutely trashed. Also, Terran bio consists of medivacs and ghosts, those are higher than T1, and no, ghosts get used a lot. So the squirtle / MVP game made mech bad all of a sudden?... jeez. Terran bio ball cosists of MMM = Marine Marauder Medivac. Ghosts are used as a counter to HTs, and honestly the good toss players going for storm before his third base can be counted on one hand.
Ghosts are used to amplify DPS against any protoss comp that consists of anything other than zealots.
Also, forgot to add vikings to the list of units used. Those aren't T1 either.
And yes, unlike the MC/Jinro game, there was no gimmick leading to MVPs demise. He went full mech, both of them had 4+ bases, 200/200 armies, full upgrades, and MVP got trashed.
In both Jinro/MC games Jinro harassed the SHIT out of MC with blueflame hellions and finished it shortly after. That's not mech. That's having a massive advantage.
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On March 07 2011 11:32 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:29 Euronyme wrote:On March 07 2011 11:24 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 11:22 Euronyme wrote:OK first of all, no going full mech is not a bad idea. Jinro beat MC.. was it 3 times in a row(?) in GSL last season with full mech.
Terran RARELY mixes in ghosts in their mix, unless it's a EMP / marine rush.
And regarding every race mixing in lots of tier one.. not true either.
Ever heard of Roach / hydra? Stalker collosi? Mech play? These are some of the most used compositions in the game. The Jinro MC game does not make mech viable. Look at the Squirtle/MVP game and look at how it went for a pure mech play (with 3/3 upgrades at that), getting absolutely trashed. Also, Terran bio consists of medivacs and ghosts, those are higher than T1, and no, ghosts get used a lot. So the squirtle / MVP game made mech bad all of a sudden?... jeez. Terran bio ball cosists of MMM = Marine Marauder Medivac. Ghosts are used as a counter to HTs, and honestly the good toss players going for storm before his third base can be counted on one hand. Ghosts are used to amplify DPS against any protoss comp that consists of anything other than zealots. Also, forgot to add vikings to the list of units used. Those aren't T1 either. And yes, unlike the MC/Jinro game, there was no gimmick leading to MVPs demise. He went full mech, both of them had 4+ bases, 200/200 armies, full upgrades, and MVP got trashed. In both Jinro/MC games Jinro harassed the SHIT out of MC with blueflame hellions and finished it shortly after. That's not mech. That's having a massive advantage.
For your information.. Yes that's mech.
Edit: And that's how you're supposed to play mech. Mech is good on close proximity maps and positions. Drop harass is in no way gimmicky, as it's almost guaranteed to pay off.
Please show me a recent replay of a terran player going for ghosts against a protoss not going for HTs (IE collosus) with success. As protoss you generally consider that a free win, as the terran won't have any vikings.
Unless you're talking extreme late game, which isn't really interesting as basically you don't have any limits of what you wanna throw out there.
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On March 07 2011 11:32 Dalavita wrote:
Ghosts are used to amplify DPS against any protoss comp that consists of anything other than zealots.
amplify, i dont think thats an accurate statement considering it nearly DOUBLES the effective dps by 1/2 the toss army, in the case of immortals its 9/10 their life.
not to mention 1 ghost with 1 abiliy then had can do 2x with full energy can take ALL of the templar out of the equation...
Ghosts are so ridiculously good if used by a skilled gamer. The problem is that so many newbs just want to 1a and hit stim. They do REALLY well with that, then the pros get ahold of the race and do even more amazing shit.
Blizzard balances the game off the newbs who 1a, so terrans are going to completely dominate at high levels and there is nothing we can do about it.
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If mech is dependant on killing an entire bases worth of drones with blueflame hellions, you might as well go bio with blueflame hellions, since it'll be stronger by that logic.
On March 07 2011 11:42 LumberJack wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:32 Dalavita wrote:
Ghosts are used to amplify DPS against any protoss comp that consists of anything other than zealots.
Blizzard balances the game off the newbs who 1a, so terrans are going to completely dominate at high levels and there is nothing we can do about it.
Except right now, the ones dominating are Protosses, and lately, even zergs have been doing well.
Also, the Colossus is the most 1a friendly unit in the game, so you might have a point there.
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On March 07 2011 11:22 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:15 TheTenthDoc wrote:On March 07 2011 09:58 IVN wrote:
I just dont get how HTs/storms are the problem. They're T3 for gods sake. They're suposed to be powerful. Sure, if T or Z mass T1, they'll get owned. BUT, thats exactly the way its supposed to be.
Fucking up HTs is just wrong. Let the lazy terrans figure out new strats involving tanks and stuff, and if that doesnt work, then nerf the HTs, but not before. Terran doesn't just "mass T1" these days. Their "T1 ball" has higher tech units, just as the Protoss ball has higher tech units. It includes Medivacs, Marines, and Ghosts in the ball as well. Saying that Terran players should just go mech is kind of like telling Protoss players to just go pure Robo. Every race mixes in LOTs of T1 units in order to make effective armies. Edit: Admittedly Colossi are higher tech than those units, but BCs can't be sprinkled into an army and Thors are pretty ineffective until you have lots of them. OK first of all, no going full mech is not a bad idea. Jinro beat MC.. was it 3 times in a row(?) in GSL last season with full mech. Terran RARELY mixes in ghosts in their mix, unless it's a EMP / marine rush. And regarding every race mixing in lots of tier one.. not true either. Ever heard of Roach / hydra? Stalker collosi? Mech play? These are some of the most used compositions in the game. Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:20 Dalavita wrote:
Ironically, The way protoss beats Terrans "endgame" mechplay is by spamming out t1 units and immortals... The way protoss beats terran mech play late game is by going for carriers usually. Well the pro games I've seen of it atleast. Personally I feel like that's the place to use carriers.
Jinro beat MC because MC wasn't expecting it and had tailored his builds to deal with Jinro's "regular" TvP builds; he was hoping to crush his like in the season prior by attacking with exquisite timing. That's MC's strength.
Every late-game Terran (which we were talking about) should have Ghosts in their mix vs. Protoss, which is the subject at hand. Otherwise Templar with or without the amulet will destroy you.
Every single one of those things you mentioned (bar mech) was a T1 unit mixed in with more advanced units. Roaches are buildable with Hatchery tech (the best way to determine tiers with Zerg, as far as I know). They're at least T1.5, if not T1. Stalkers are fuzzier but fill the same role as Marauders as far as I can tell as a T1.5 unit.
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On March 07 2011 11:42 Dalavita wrote:If mech is dependant on killing an entire bases worth of drones with blueflame hellions, you might as well go bio with blueflame hellions, since it'll be stronger by that logic. Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:42 LumberJack wrote:On March 07 2011 11:32 Dalavita wrote:
Ghosts are used to amplify DPS against any protoss comp that consists of anything other than zealots.
Blizzard balances the game off the newbs who 1a, so terrans are going to completely dominate at high levels and there is nothing we can do about it. Except right now, the ones dominating are Protosses, and lately, even zergs have been doing well. Also, the Colossus is the most 1a friendly unit in the game, so you might have a point there.
Zergs are sertainly not doing well, and terrans are stronger than protosses as always. The collosus is beaten by.. is it three marauders?. You need forcefields, and just handling a protoss army with zealots in front requires separate army hotkeys. Imagine how much worse the 1A terrans would be off if the marine would be way faster than the marauders.
Edit: On March 07 2011 11:42 Dalavita wrote:
If mech is dependant on killing an entire bases worth of drones with blueflame hellions, you might as well go bio with blueflame hellions, since it'll be stronger by that logic.
I don't see what part you don't understand. Blueflame hellions are a part of mech. If you're going blue flame hellion, you're going mech. It's factory / starport tech.
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On March 07 2011 11:50 Euronyme wrote:
Zergs are sertainly not doing well, and terrans are stronger than protosses as always. The collosus is beaten by.. is it three marauders?. You need forcefields, and just handling a protoss army with zealots in front requires separate army hotkeys. Imagine how much worse the 1A terrans would be off if the marine would be way faster than the marauders.
Are you commenting silver league play or something? Protoss never struggles with terran BIO after the earlygame.
I don't see what part you don't understand. Blueflame hellions are a part of mech. If you're going blue flame hellion, you're going mech. It's factory / starport tech.
There's a difference between getting a unit to harass with, and having it being your active army composition. That's why you're not going "air play" when you make one or two banshees with cloak to kill drones.
Blueflame hellions to harass workers != mech play.
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On March 07 2011 11:53 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:50 Euronyme wrote:
Zergs are sertainly not doing well, and terrans are stronger than protosses as always. The collosus is beaten by.. is it three marauders?. You need forcefields, and just handling a protoss army with zealots in front requires separate army hotkeys. Imagine how much worse the 1A terrans would be off if the marine would be way faster than the marauders. Are you commenting silver league play or something? Protoss never struggles with terran BIO after the earlygame.
Tell that to IMMVP.
And this is also my point. Terran needs to switch it up, and try more tech paths than just marine marauder medivac if they want to keep up with protoss.
Right now protoss is nerfed because their t3 units fair better in a 200/200 encounter with a terran t1 army. I don't see how you can even make that comparison.
And who said I'm commentating?
There's a difference between getting a unit to harass with, and having it being your active army composition. That's why you're not going "air play" when you make one or two banshees with cloak to kill drones.
Blueflame hellions to harass workers != mech play.
If you're getting an early factory, starport and tech lab on the factory, chances are you're going for siege tank next. It's just the more reasonably tech path.
Also Hellions rape zealots.. Not having them in an active army composition is missing out on a huge opportunity-
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The point is that Jinro would've won that game as well really easily if he just went bio with hellion drops. So it doesnt "show" that mech is a better strat than standard play.
It is completely ridiculous anyway to make those kind of conlusions from just 1 series.
Edit: You should also wonder why almost no pro gamer or even Jinro uses mech play regularly in TvP at the moment. Thinking terrans are stupid and should just try more mech is extremely arrogant, and frankly you are probably not nearly good enough to make those kind of statements.
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