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hrrrufrr
6 Posts
If the game is at a stage where you can't have your army inside your base, you should have enough warp gates to be able to warp in some zealots and stalkers into the base being attacked and defend drops. Well, good luck defending a medivac drop with warp-in zealot/stalker. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On March 07 2011 19:34 Dalavita wrote: Until the Protoss starts using the sentries properly. Warpgate can certainly fight Bio + Stim on an even playing field, if used correctly. However, the Protoss is required to invest deeply into gas-heavy units whereas the Terran can save most of his gas for tech. And the Protoss tech necessary to combat M&M&M (Colossi w/Range or Templar w/Storm) is at the very end of the Protoss tech tree, requiring two buildings and a 200/200 upgrade to be useful. Furthermore, this tech is very immobile unless you have Khaydarin Amulet for your High Templar (allowing warp-in to simulate mobility). It's actually cheaper for Terran to unlock Ghost w/+25 energy AND Vikings/Medivacs w/Reactor than it is for Protoss to unlock Ranged Colossi. The Protoss version comes with Prisms, Immortals, and Observers, but the Terran version comes with Hellions and can readily produce Banshees/Ravens, so... yeah. Because the cost for powerful Protoss tech is so high, I expect upgrade-heavy Protoss styles to become standard. Also, if Protoss T1 was as strong as Terran T1, 4gates would be unstoppable, and the only way to stop 4gates from Blizzards point of view would be to nerf/remove/change the warping in mechanic, and pretty much turn Protoss into Terran that harasses with its T1 while the other races turtle up and try to tech. Choose your poison. Hallucinate could be enhanced to provide better meatshields, or the Twilight Council upgrades enhanced (or a new one added!) to improve the efficacy of Protoss gateway units without bolstering the 4 Warpgate plays. Stim is about equally powerful to Charge + Blink. Stim costs 100/100 rather than 350/350 and is available earlier in the tech tree... | ||
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dump
Japan514 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:03 hrrrufrr wrote: Yeah, Sentries are great and evens the imbalance between MM and Warpgate units a bit. But it hardly helps against small forces (aka drops) or without choke points. So its not just nearly impossible to defend many attacks at once with warpgate units, it also gives complete map dominance to MM. And yeah, so P needs to transition into T3. That's the other thing. I'm really tired of turtling as protoss. Why is Blizzard neglecting the aspect of fun in their patch changes? Archon toilet is fun, but they got rid of it because it's potentially imbalanced in one in every few hundred games. Reaper openings are fun, but rather than tweaking it they just flat out killed it. Slow medivacs is not fun; I'd rather they keep medivac speed and give us more ways to fend off drops instead. +1 roach range is not a fun solution to zerg being weak. Fending off 4 gate in pvp every game is not fun. I'd rather have a 55% loss rate than an 90% 4 gate rate. The new maps with only cosmetic and back-door-rocks differences to the old ones are not fun. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:30 dump wrote: That's the other thing. I'm really tired of turtling as protoss. Why is Blizzard neglecting the aspect of fun in their patch changes? Archon toilet is fun, but they got rid of it because it's potentially imbalanced in one in every few hundred games. Reaper openings are fun, but rather than tweaking it they just flat out killed it. Slow medivacs is not fun; I'd rather they keep medivac speed and give us more ways to fend off drops instead. +1 roach range is not a fun solution to zerg being weak. Fending off 4 gate in pvp every game is not fun. I'd rather have a 55% loss rate than an 90% 4 gate rate. The new maps with only cosmetic and back-door-rocks differences to the old ones are not fun. And one more thing is not fun: playing like a sneaky bitch (spells like FF/storm, hiden pylons...) as toss, instead of having the option to just break your opponent mano a mano. Just like in BW...remember "bulldog toss"? Well that was manly and fun! | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:10 hrrrufrr wrote:Well, good luck defending a medivac drop with warp-in zealot/stalker. 3 Chargelots and 2 stalkers will clean 8 marines and a medivac up easily enough, especially if you catch them after stim is used up. 4 Chargelots and one sentry with guardian shield will clean a medivac drop easily enough. 4-5 Chargelots will kill 8 marines and a medivac easily enough. Yes, the marines are stimmed and scoot and shooting, and the zealots are a-clicked with charge. On March 07 2011 20:18 Severedevil wrote: Warpgate can certainly fight Bio + Stim on an even playing field, if used correctly. However, the Protoss is required to invest deeply into gas-heavy units whereas the Terran can save most of his gas for tech. And the Protoss tech necessary to combat M&M&M (Colossi w/Range or Templar w/Storm) is at the very end of the Protoss tech tree, requiring two buildings and a 200/200 upgrade to be useful. Furthermore, this tech is very immobile unless you have Khaydarin Amulet for your High Templar (allowing warp-in to simulate mobility). The combined cost of Terran bio tech costs 150/150-250/250 and 1-3+ tech labs/reactors on top of that. That's quite a significant amount of minerals and gas to get the strong bio army people fear. All that time and money can be spent on getting the additional sentries, stalkers and zealots in the right composition to combat the terran bio. Good force fields, a correct unit ratio between stalkers and zealots will win you fights vs most MM battles, especially since you have a unit advantage because you didn't have to spend 150/150-250/250 and an additional sum of money on tech labs and reactors. Because the cost for powerful Protoss tech is so high, I expect upgrade-heavy Protoss styles to become standard. Hallucinate could be enhanced to provide better meatshields, or the Twilight Council upgrades enhanced (or a new one added!) to improve the efficacy of Protoss gateway units without bolstering the 4 Warpgate plays. Stim is about equally powerful to Charge + Blink. Stim costs 100/100 rather than 350/350 and is available earlier in the tech tree... My point is. You can't boost the earlygame strength of Protoss T1 without making the 4gate lolstrong. The reason 4gate is so strong to begin with is because you nullify the defenders advantage with instant reinforcements while playing the most aggressive Protoss build you possibly could. which is why stim is available earlier in the tech tree, because Terran can't warp in all of his units and instantly reinforce his main army. (and it's needed to defend some zerg attacks, and the 4gate and void rays.) I'm not sure about the intent of your twilight council or hallucination changes to begin with, as the earlygame has passed at that stage, and protoss t1 are plenty strong when they got charge/blink. On March 07 2011 20:41 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: There's 166 pages of thread here, is anyone feeding this back to the PTR forum on Battle.Net? If you don't we're going to see this ridiculous HT nerf go into production :/ There's nothing ridiculous about it. At first I was sort of opposed to it, and I still think that there should be some sort of upgrade for HTs that make storms come out faster (although not instantly), but the strength of HTs in the endgame is absolutely insane defensively just because of amulet, and it requires no foresight of planning to pull off, which is why it's getting removed. On March 07 2011 20:30 dump wrote: That's the other thing. I'm really tired of turtling as protoss. Why is Blizzard neglecting the aspect of fun in their patch changes? Archon toilet is fun, but they got rid of it because it's potentially imbalanced in one in every few hundred games. Reaper openings are fun, but rather than tweaking it they just flat out killed it. Slow medivacs is not fun; I'd rather they keep medivac speed and give us more ways to fend off drops instead. +1 roach range is not a fun solution to zerg being weak. Fending off 4 gate in pvp every game is not fun. I'd rather have a 55% loss rate than an 90% 4 gate rate. The new maps with only cosmetic and back-door-rocks differences to the old ones are not fun. I don't understand your definition of fun in this case. You don't need to turtle as protoss if you do aggressive builds like the 4gate or the void ray build, likewise as terran, you need to turtle if you spot the void ray or 4gate and you're trying to tech up or expo up fast. That's just general gameplay logic. | ||
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dump
Japan514 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:41 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: There's 166 pages of thread here, is anyone feeding this back to the PTR forum on Battle.Net? If you don't we're going to see this ridiculous HT nerf go into production :/ They've been deleting threads complaining about the changes one after another, because they invariably end up looking like petitions due to the number of people upset about the patch, and because every other thread following the first one makes note of the fact that the one before it got deleted. It's a really stupid self-perpetuating situation. | ||
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Mercury-
Great Britain804 Posts
On March 07 2011 11:56 Euronyme wrote: Tell that to IMMVP. And this is also my point. Terran needs to switch it up, and try more tech paths than just marine marauder medivac if they want to keep up with protoss. Right now protoss is nerfed because their t3 units fair better in a 200/200 encounter with a terran t1 army. I don't see how you can even make that comparison. And who said I'm commentating? The Protoss T3 army is a bunch of Zealot/Sentry/Stalkers with anything from 3-6 Colos and Templar support. How is that different from Marine/Marauder + Ghost/Viking/Medivac(Raven/Banshee)? | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:49 Mercury- wrote: Simple: as T you only need to kill those higher tech units of the P, and the rest of his army just evaporates, cause its sole purpose is to act as a meatshield. The Protoss T3 army is a bunch of Zealot/Sentry/Stalkers with anything from 3-6 Colos and Templar support. How is that different from Marine/Marauder + Ghost/Viking/Medivac(Raven/Banshee)? As P you have to kill ALL rines and rauders while preserving your few T3 units, cause regardles of their ridiculously low cost (MM), they own gateway units. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:55 IVN wrote:As P you have to kill ALL rines and rauders while preserving your few T3 units, cause regardles of their ridiculously low cost (MM), they own gateway units. As P, literally all you have to do is micro your colossi around and make sure they can't get shot by anything but vikings (and that your stalkers are shooting vikings), and your colossi will melt terrans BIO. I like the emphasis on how you have to kill ALL rines and marauders, like that's any hard, and when the colossi do that more than fine. | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:58 Cabinet Sanchez wrote: I play Protoss and I'm willing to concede that forcefields could lose a small amount of duration, like 1 second. I'd gladly gamble that if we could see some more changes to T, like Marauder concussive, Archons to massive, bunkers being an 80% refund not 100% and scan duration and radius decreased somewhat (12 seconds and a huge section of the map) 1 second on force fields for all of that is nowhere near an equal trade lol | ||
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Mercury-
Great Britain804 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:55 IVN wrote: You're talking like MM has some special armor that completely protects them from gateway units lol. As soon as Storm and/or Colo attacks hit the MM gateway units clean them up nicely unless the T already has a big advantage and then he has to remacro an army fast enough to kill the P leftovers before they stream into his production line and get reinforced by proxy pylons.Simple: as T you only need to kill those higher tech units of the P, and the rest of his army just evaporates, cause its sole purpose is to act as a meatshield. As P you have to kill ALL rines and rauders while preserving your few T3 units, cause regardles of their ridiculously low cost (MM), they own gateway units. | ||
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dump
Japan514 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:46 Dalavita wrote: I don't understand your definition of fun in this case. You don't need to turtle as protoss if you do aggressive builds like the 4gate or the void ray build, likewise as terran, you need to turtle if you spot the void ray or 4gate and you're trying to tech up or expo up fast. That's just general gameplay logic. I mention that 4 gating every game is boring as well. The void ray build is highly situational. I don't think I need to explain why repetition is boring. When I say turtle, I don't mean one-base turtling; I mean sitting on three or even two bases until you have a 200/200 death ball. Supposing you're right about not having to turtle, all the other changes I note are still boring. See my post on page 160 for what I mean by boring. Boring is slow and homogeneous. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:57 Dalavita wrote: As P, literally all you have to do is micro your colossi around and make sure they can't get shot by anything but vikings (and that your stalkers are shooting vikings), and your colossi will melt terrans BIO. I like the emphasis on how you have to kill ALL rines and marauders, when the colossi do that more than fine. >As P, literally all you have to do is micro your colossi around and make sure they can't get shot by anything but vikings Is that all? And what do you have to do as T? Just press stim and A-Move! And no, Colossi dont do that fine. They get sniped so fast by vikings. The reason P are winning so much in the last GSL, are the new maps, which dont allow for all in spoiled T players with no standard game skill to own players of much higher caliber. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit. Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little. And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time. *Bam* | ||
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:49 Mercury- wrote: The Protoss T3 army is a bunch of Zealot/Sentry/Stalkers with anything from 3-6 Colos and Templar support. How is that different from Marine/Marauder + Ghost/Viking/Medivac(Raven/Banshee)? Because the tech cost and gas price for the Protoss army you described is drastically higher than for the Terran army you described. | ||
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mads
Canada90 Posts
On March 07 2011 20:46 Dalavita wrote: 3 Chargelots and 2 stalkers will clean 8 marines and a medivac up easily enough, especially if you catch them after stim is used up. No it won't. 4 Chargelots and one sentry with guardian shield will clean a medivac drop easily enough. No it won't. 4-5 Chargelots will kill 8 marines and a medivac easily enough. No it won't. Please dont make up BS just to try and make yourself right. NONE of these scenarios are true. On March 07 2011 20:46 Dalavita wrote: Because the cost for powerful Protoss tech is so high, I expect upgrade-heavy Protoss styles to become standard. The reason it's not standard is because Gateway units do not scale like T1 terran does. These strats are used because they can give a small advantage into the midgame if the Terran is on 1 eng bay and you're on 2 forge. It, however, doesn't last and Terran will quickly overtake you in efficiency. In most scenarios teching to colossus faster is better. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 07 2011 21:03 IVN wrote:The reason P are winning so much in the last GSL, are the new maps, which dont allow for all in spoiled T players with no standard game skill to own players of much higher caliber. Again, get a clue... On March 07 2011 21:07 mads wrote: No it won't. No it won't. No it won't. Please dont make up BS just to try and make yourself right. NONE of these scenarios are true. Yes, they are, sorry. Feel free to try it. This'll especially be true post patch when chargelots always get one attack off per charge. | ||
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mads
Canada90 Posts
It's honestly not even CLOSE, a single medivac with any combination of T1 and stim mops the floor with everything you threw out there. Misinformation is no way to win an argument. | ||
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