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On March 07 2011 21:07 mads wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 20:46 Dalavita wrote:
3 Chargelots and 2 stalkers will clean 8 marines and a medivac up easily enough, especially if you catch them after stim is used up. No it won't. Show nested quote +4 Chargelots and one sentry with guardian shield will clean a medivac drop easily enough. No it won't. No it won't. Please dont make up BS just to try and make yourself right. NONE of these scenarios are true.
I love the last one in which chargelots can kill a medivac. Uh... right. The situations don't work unless you catch the Terran unloading.
That said, Protoss warp-in is a solid way to defeat drops if Protoss has favorable ground upgrades. Which is part of the reason I'm advocating for upgrade-heavy Protoss play.
Also, Feedback on the medivac is great against drops. The medivac will probably survive, but without heals, and may die instead of escaping...
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On March 07 2011 21:15 Severedevil wrote:
That said, Protoss warp-in is a solid way to defeat drops if Protoss has favorable ground upgrades. Which is part of the reason I'm advocating for upgrade-heavy Protoss play.
Lots of upgrades, zealot charge, at least 8 available food, and a surplus of at least 400 minerals? That's a huge if.
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On March 07 2011 21:15 Severedevil wrote:I love the last one in which chargelots can kill a medivac. Uh... right. The situations don't work unless you catch the Terran unloading.
That said, Protoss warp-in is a solid way to defeat drops if Protoss has favorable ground upgrades. Which is part of the reason I'm advocating for upgrade-heavy Protoss play.
Also, Feedback on the medivac is great against drops. The medivac will probably survive, but without heals, and may die instead of escaping...
I just tried all those compositions in the unit tester since I don't currently have anyone to help me test it out in a real game setting. I tested it out with the marines just standing there and the marines stim kiting.
In a real game scenario it'd be easier for protoss to hold, since you don't have an endless field to kite them with, because you generally drop the backside of the mineral fields, and most protoss would warp in more than 4 zealots/pull probes/do this/that to begin with, since they wouldn't feel safe, even though its strong enough to hold it.
I think my preferred method would be 3x zealots and 2x stalkers.
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On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam*
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?).
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On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?).
Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes.
For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive.
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I always love when people say that warp-ins are a great way to defend drops.
Honestly: if your opponents are that bad that they always have spare warp-cycles, then there's something wrong with your play in general. Even when my macro slips I always have maximum ~30% of my warpgates "idling", there's no way in hell I could instantly warp in 5-6 units at any given point in time. Neither would I have the ressources nor would I have the warp-in-capabilities.
If your opponents do, then their mechanics suck. If this is the case, then you should beat them easily without any fancy stuff anyways.
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On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive.
In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp.
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I am sure it has been already mentioned, but:
- An alert has been added when MULEs expire.
- An alert has been added when the Chrono Boost buff expires.
- An alert has been added when the Spawn Larva buff expires.
Sounds awesome, can anyone who played PTR give feedback to these changes please ?
PS: As I said it may have been discussed already, if so I am sorry - 160 pages is a lot to read.
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On March 07 2011 21:34 sleepingdog wrote:
I always love when people say that warp-ins are a great way to defend drops.
Honestly: if your opponents are that bad that they always have spare warp-cycles, then there's something wrong with your play in general. Even when my macro slips I always have maximum ~30% of my warpgates "idling", there's no way in hell I could instantly warp in 5-6 units at any given point in time. Neither would I have the ressources nor would I have the warp-in-capabilities.
If your opponents do, then their mechanics suck. If this is the case, then you should beat them easily without any fancy stuff anyways.
So your argument for warp gates being bad at defending drops in your main is because they're on cooldown?
Are you for real? You want some sort of guaranteed anti-drop button that wins the game for you or something?
If you want to defend a drop, do it like everyone else and scout it. If not, pull your probes and wait for your warp gates to cooldown or your units to come back from the field, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.
Sorry, what is your argument, that you can't instantly warp in units if you don't scout a drop? Yes, that is a weakness.
The whole point of a drop is to catch the opponent off guard. When warp gates are cooling down is the best time to do it imho.
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You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground.
FF is the only reason toss can survive early game so you can't nerf it. You are suggesting to many changes, this could have been done in beta but not now. You can't end up with a balanced game and whith so many tournaments they will never risk it.
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On March 07 2011 21:22 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:15 Severedevil wrote:I love the last one in which chargelots can kill a medivac. Uh... right. The situations don't work unless you catch the Terran unloading.
That said, Protoss warp-in is a solid way to defeat drops if Protoss has favorable ground upgrades. Which is part of the reason I'm advocating for upgrade-heavy Protoss play.
Also, Feedback on the medivac is great against drops. The medivac will probably survive, but without heals, and may die instead of escaping... I just tried all those compositions in the unit tester since I don't currently have anyone to help me test it out in a real game setting. I tested it out with the marines just standing there and the marines stim kiting. In a real game scenario it'd be easier for protoss to hold, since you don't have an endless field to kite them with, because you generally drop the backside of the mineral fields, and most protoss would warp in more than 4 zealots/pull probes/do this/that to begin with, since they wouldn't feel safe, even though its strong enough to hold it. I think my preferred method would be 3x zealots and 2x stalkers.
lol pull probes to defend medivac/stim rine drop. Like I said you're clueless. Let me help you a bit with this one: probes die faster than they can get in range of a ball of stimmed marines, that's why you never see pros do this after early game.
you know damn well that you dont need an endless field to kite. circles. circles dude. circles.
with good micro and medi to heal stim, 8 marines kills a ridiculous amount of chargelots. (maybe this has changed with the change to charge, but i doubt it made that much difference) and the zealot/stalker mix will be lucky to kill 2 marines.
Basically, to defend these drops with gateway units you need about double the food, and even still, you aren't going to crush the drop, you're probably going to lose about half that food and won't come out ahead no matter what you do.
Don't forget the fact that you need to warp in AWAY from the drop, and so the drop will pretty much get guaranteed damage unless you see it coming from pretty far.
So your argument for warp gates being bad at defending drops in your main is because they're on cooldown?
Are you for real? You want some sort of guaranteed anti-drop button that wins the game for you or something?
If you want to defend a drop, do it like everyone else and scout it. If not, pull your probes and wait for your warp gates to cooldown or your units to come back from the field, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.
Sorry, what is your argument, that you can't instantly warp in units if you don't scout a drop? Yes, that is a weakness.
The whole point of a drop is to catch the opponent off guard. When warp gates are cooling down is the best time to do it imho.
It seems like you want drops to be guaranteed damage with little to no risk, which is pretty much what they are without HT.
This change just makes late game harass super strong for terran, maybe it needed to be done.
I personally think terrans aren't weak late game and just needed to learn to play, instead of relying on super strong early game to win. But it's tough to say. The win percentages certainly don't suggest that terran is weak in PvT.
Ultimately though, I think balance is headed in the wrong direction, they need to be tweaking things, not removing them. HT is now wasted tech, like the reaper. I feel like Protoss has zero options but colossus and if(when?) Zergs and Terrans learn to deal with colossus builds effectively protoss's competitiveness will be completely gone.
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On March 07 2011 21:09 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:03 IVN wrote:The reason P are winning so much in the last GSL, are the new maps, which dont allow for all in spoiled T players with no standard game skill to own players of much higher caliber. Again, get a clue... Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:07 mads wrote:On March 07 2011 20:46 Dalavita wrote:
3 Chargelots and 2 stalkers will clean 8 marines and a medivac up easily enough, especially if you catch them after stim is used up. No it won't. 4 Chargelots and one sentry with guardian shield will clean a medivac drop easily enough. No it won't. 4-5 Chargelots will kill 8 marines and a medivac easily enough. No it won't. Please dont make up BS just to try and make yourself right. NONE of these scenarios are true. Yes, they are, sorry. Feel free to try it. This'll especially be true post patch when chargelots always get one attack off per charge.
you've no idea do you? stim plus medivac will rape everything you just mentioned, plus i fail how 5 chargelots can kill a medivac but ok. that's why when terran drops protoss you pray for 1 of 2 things. A) u spot it and snipe the medivac with stalkers before it unloads,
B) your templar and chargelots warp in fast enough that your nexus doesnt die.
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On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive.
No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half.
Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist.
In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp.
That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door).
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On March 07 2011 21:43 mads wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:22 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 21:15 Severedevil wrote:I love the last one in which chargelots can kill a medivac. Uh... right. The situations don't work unless you catch the Terran unloading.
That said, Protoss warp-in is a solid way to defeat drops if Protoss has favorable ground upgrades. Which is part of the reason I'm advocating for upgrade-heavy Protoss play.
Also, Feedback on the medivac is great against drops. The medivac will probably survive, but without heals, and may die instead of escaping... I just tried all those compositions in the unit tester since I don't currently have anyone to help me test it out in a real game setting. I tested it out with the marines just standing there and the marines stim kiting. In a real game scenario it'd be easier for protoss to hold, since you don't have an endless field to kite them with, because you generally drop the backside of the mineral fields, and most protoss would warp in more than 4 zealots/pull probes/do this/that to begin with, since they wouldn't feel safe, even though its strong enough to hold it. I think my preferred method would be 3x zealots and 2x stalkers. lol pull probes to defend medivac/stim rine drop. Like I said you're clueless. Let me help you a bit with this one: probes die faster than they can get in range of a ball of stimmed marines, that's why you never see pros do this after early game. you dont need an endless field to kite, circles. circles dude. circles. with good micro and medi to heal stim, 8 marines kills a ridiculous amount of chargelots and sentries. (maybe this has changed with the change to charge) and the zealot/stalker mix will be lucky to kill 2 marines. Basically, to defend these drops with gateway units you need about double the food, and even still, you aren't going to crush the drop, you're probably going to lose about half that food and won't come out ahead no matter what you do. Don't forget the fact that you need to warp in AWAY from the drop, and so the drop will pretty much get guaranteed damage unless you see it coming from pretty far. This change just makes late game harass super strong for terran, maybe it needed to be done. I personally think terrans aren't weak late game and just needed to learn to play, instead of relying on super strong early game to win. But it's tough to say. The win percentages certainly don't suggest that terran is weak in PvT. Ultimately though, I think balance is headed in the wrong direction, they need to be tweaking things, not removing them. HT is now wasted tech, like the reaper. I feel like Protoss has zero options but colossus and if(when?) Zergs and Terrans learn to deal with colossus builds effectively protoss's competitiveness will be completely gone.
Sorry dude, you're clueless. Circles works even worse than running back the entire way, because the stalkers are taking pot shots at your marines constantly, while the marines are not outputting their full DPS. Also, the point is to pull probes when the marines are busy fighting the zealots, not single file them.
And HTs being wasted tech? Because you can't spawn one and instantly storm? What the hell.. How spoiled can you get?
Also, the best way to kill off a drop is in fact to spot it coming from pretty far.
Again, feel free to try it yourself in combinations of 4 chargelots + 1 stalker, 3 chargelots + 2 stalkers, 4 chargelots + 1 sentry with guardian shield vs 7 marines and one medivac.
Exact same cost/food armies, the chargelot sentry combination comes out ahead by miles. Circle stim kiting constantly done.
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On March 07 2011 21:38 Dalavita wrote:
If you want to defend a drop, do it like everyone else and scout it. If not, pull your probes and wait for your warp gates to cooldown or your units to come back from the field, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.
When terran wants to defend from drops, he builds planetary fortress and/or sensor tower. What did you say about button which defends you from drops? Well, you have it
Protoss t1 units are much worse than terran t1 units. That's a fact, nobody can argue that. So why people keep saying that protoss can hold off a drop with inferior units just fine?
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On March 07 2011 21:50 Alexj wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:38 Dalavita wrote:
If you want to defend a drop, do it like everyone else and scout it. If not, pull your probes and wait for your warp gates to cooldown or your units to come back from the field, JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.
When terran wants to defend from drops, he builds planetary fortress and/or sensor tower. What did you say about button which defends you from drops? Well, you have it Protoss t1 units are much worse than terran t1 units. That's a fact, nobody can argue that. So why people keep saying that protoss can hold off a drop with inferior units just fine?
First of all, chargelots are not t1.
Second, if he has a planetary fortress, drop somewhere else, kill his barracks/reactors/tech labs/supply depoes (or storm his mineral lines like people do on Xel'Naga to great effect)
THIRD, you're complaining about sentry towers? I should punch you. Protoss got the best scouting unit in the fucking game. You have no reason to cry if you can't spot drops.
Also, he has planetary fortress, you can build one cannon in your mineral line. That'll keep his drop busy until you can get your units there to defend, and it's way cheaper than a planetary in the long run.
Protoss t1 units are not worse than Terran t1. Unupgraded stalkers and zealots in bad combinations are worse than upgraded marauders and marines. Mix in sentries and get good force fields, use guardian shields and have a good stalker/zealot ratio and you can fight on equal ground with MM.
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United States7483 Posts
On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?).
You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection.
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Anyone on the EU server wanna get together with me in the unit tester and try out marine medivac drops vs gateway defense?
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On March 07 2011 21:49 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:43 mads wrote:On March 07 2011 21:22 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 21:15 Severedevil wrote:I love the last one in which chargelots can kill a medivac. Uh... right. The situations don't work unless you catch the Terran unloading.
That said, Protoss warp-in is a solid way to defeat drops if Protoss has favorable ground upgrades. Which is part of the reason I'm advocating for upgrade-heavy Protoss play.
Also, Feedback on the medivac is great against drops. The medivac will probably survive, but without heals, and may die instead of escaping... I just tried all those compositions in the unit tester since I don't currently have anyone to help me test it out in a real game setting. I tested it out with the marines just standing there and the marines stim kiting. In a real game scenario it'd be easier for protoss to hold, since you don't have an endless field to kite them with, because you generally drop the backside of the mineral fields, and most protoss would warp in more than 4 zealots/pull probes/do this/that to begin with, since they wouldn't feel safe, even though its strong enough to hold it. I think my preferred method would be 3x zealots and 2x stalkers. lol pull probes to defend medivac/stim rine drop. Like I said you're clueless. Let me help you a bit with this one: probes die faster than they can get in range of a ball of stimmed marines, that's why you never see pros do this after early game. you dont need an endless field to kite, circles. circles dude. circles. with good micro and medi to heal stim, 8 marines kills a ridiculous amount of chargelots and sentries. (maybe this has changed with the change to charge) and the zealot/stalker mix will be lucky to kill 2 marines. Basically, to defend these drops with gateway units you need about double the food, and even still, you aren't going to crush the drop, you're probably going to lose about half that food and won't come out ahead no matter what you do. Don't forget the fact that you need to warp in AWAY from the drop, and so the drop will pretty much get guaranteed damage unless you see it coming from pretty far. This change just makes late game harass super strong for terran, maybe it needed to be done. I personally think terrans aren't weak late game and just needed to learn to play, instead of relying on super strong early game to win. But it's tough to say. The win percentages certainly don't suggest that terran is weak in PvT. Ultimately though, I think balance is headed in the wrong direction, they need to be tweaking things, not removing them. HT is now wasted tech, like the reaper. I feel like Protoss has zero options but colossus and if(when?) Zergs and Terrans learn to deal with colossus builds effectively protoss's competitiveness will be completely gone. Sorry dude, you're clueless. Circles works even worse than running back the entire way, because the stalkers are taking pot shots at your marines constantly, while the marines are not outputting their full DPS. Also, the point is to pull probes when the marines are busy fighting the zealots, not single file them. And HTs being wasted tech? Because you can't spawn one and instantly storm? What the hell.. How spoiled can you get? Also, the best way to kill off a drop is in fact to spot it coming from pretty far. Again, feel free to try it yourself in combinations of 4 chargelots + 1 stalker, 3 chargelots + 2 stalkers, 4 chargelots + 1 sentry with guardian shield vs 7 marines and one medivac. Exact same cost/food armies, the chargelot sentry combination comes out ahead by miles. Circle stim kiting constantly done.
Proper scoot and shoot micro (even in circles) has a negligible difference in DPS, learn to play.
Yes, pull probes when the marines are busy fighting the zealots, and the probes then just get in the way of the zealots ability to do damage. You must be confused or something, these things are not hard to grasp.
I know you want to believe that protoss and HT are so imbalanced.
I thought an instant 100 damage and the ability to completely nullify storm and forcefield was pretty spoiled, but no one ever used it
http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4807584/ watch this. THIS is one example of how to play terran late game properly. Guess it's just too hard to do this, it's easier to post on forums about how imbalanced protoss late game is and have blizzard appease you. Post about how unfair it is that your shift queue drop got rocked by warp in storm...by a protoss that worked twice as hard as you to make it into the mid game on even footing.
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EPT
