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On March 07 2011 23:06 ELESSAR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:49 Sm3agol wrote:On March 07 2011 22:38 freetgy wrote:On March 07 2011 22:33 Sm3agol wrote:
Why not put forcefields on a cooldown timer, and put hallucinate as a cyber-core cooldown ability, able to activate anywhere you have sight?
Instant sentry "nerf" while simultaneously allowing them to still properly defend ramps and such on warp-in.......So you can still drop FF and hold ramps, but you can't build up 4 FF per sentry and drop 20 FF with 5 sentries. Noone feedbacks sentries anyways, and if you have the 10 sentries necessary for ridiculous amounts of FF, then you're so far behind in gas that you're screwed. I think this would instantly nerf toss mid-late game while simultaneously not affecting their early game.
and how are you supposed to control the masses of Zergunits attacking you?Screw Protoss their design is balanced around that. Gateway Units Suck unless you go all-in with them. Any Nerf of either Forcefield or T3 Units(Colossus/HT) have to come with a good buff of Gateway units. cause those are the things that keep up Protoss in the game and can win the game if the opponent isn't adapting properly. watch dreamhack finals godsake Mana had both Colossus and Warp-In Storms and still barely survived against Naama in most of the games, funny since HT should be the kill everything with 3 storms unit after instant storms are ready isn't it? How? Give sentries a cooldown with a length equivalent to however long it takes to build up 50 energy. That way sentries are still just as useful early game, as they can still throw down FF on spawning and ~4 or 5 can permanently lock down a ramp, but those 4 or 5 can't build up 200 energy and completely dominate a battlefield 5 minutes later. I'd even go as far as shortening the cooldown timer by quite a bit to encourage less sentry use......so 3 sentries can permanently shut down a ramp. That way it will keep mid-game FF usage to a minimum. Oh, and make FF not work on creep...or maybe half duration on creep. FF are not only for ramps, gateway units are too weak to fight straight up Zerg or Terran so FF is the only way to survive (staying on 1 base while the enemy is on 3 is not surviving) before Colossus. With FF battles are balanced so I really don't understand why you want them to be nerfed. Protoss definitely isn't too strong early/mid game and late game there are ways to deal with FF
But mid-game battles are not balanced with good FF usage. Watch Miniguns stream sometime.....
Again, I'm not suggesting to remove all FF from the game. I just want to keep the mass FF usage down. Watching someone with 10 sentries/7 stalkers/10 lots and 2 colossi vs almost any number of roach/ling/hydra is SOOOOO painful to watch. If the sentries have been sitting for any length of time, they can just blanket the entire map with FF, and there is absolutely nothing the zerg(or terran) can do about it. If a toss invested in 10 sentries, then 10 FF could cut the map up pretty well, and isn't imbalanced at all imo. However, those sentries having 40 FF total is just ludicrous, and unless you have flyers or something to break the FF, you are just screwed, period. My issues with FF isn't in their basic use, per-se, it more of the skilless spamming that kills me. It takes no skill to spam 20 FF into a zerg army and split them into 5 different balls while colossi rape them one by one, and there is literally nothing you can do about it.
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All those guys crying about FF are probably the guys going MMM bowl vs toss. (Marauder, marauder, marauder).
We can't fend off an early T push unless we're using FF to both grant us high ground or force you back while CBing Warpgates for more units. Unless we can get our pylons to "Lower".
Also the MMM bowl is utter superior to gateway units, if we don't have FF.
Stim and medivacs, anyone?
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10sentries = 1k gaz man, and protoss early/mid is balanced around FF. I don't know why 1k gaz shouldn't allow me to spam ff instead of teching.
Failing a ff wall = you die
failing ff ramp = you die
no mana = you die.
want more ?
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On March 07 2011 23:18 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 23:06 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:49 Sm3agol wrote:On March 07 2011 22:38 freetgy wrote:On March 07 2011 22:33 Sm3agol wrote:
Why not put forcefields on a cooldown timer, and put hallucinate as a cyber-core cooldown ability, able to activate anywhere you have sight?
Instant sentry "nerf" while simultaneously allowing them to still properly defend ramps and such on warp-in.......So you can still drop FF and hold ramps, but you can't build up 4 FF per sentry and drop 20 FF with 5 sentries. Noone feedbacks sentries anyways, and if you have the 10 sentries necessary for ridiculous amounts of FF, then you're so far behind in gas that you're screwed. I think this would instantly nerf toss mid-late game while simultaneously not affecting their early game.
and how are you supposed to control the masses of Zergunits attacking you?Screw Protoss their design is balanced around that. Gateway Units Suck unless you go all-in with them. Any Nerf of either Forcefield or T3 Units(Colossus/HT) have to come with a good buff of Gateway units. cause those are the things that keep up Protoss in the game and can win the game if the opponent isn't adapting properly. watch dreamhack finals godsake Mana had both Colossus and Warp-In Storms and still barely survived against Naama in most of the games, funny since HT should be the kill everything with 3 storms unit after instant storms are ready isn't it? How? Give sentries a cooldown with a length equivalent to however long it takes to build up 50 energy. That way sentries are still just as useful early game, as they can still throw down FF on spawning and ~4 or 5 can permanently lock down a ramp, but those 4 or 5 can't build up 200 energy and completely dominate a battlefield 5 minutes later. I'd even go as far as shortening the cooldown timer by quite a bit to encourage less sentry use......so 3 sentries can permanently shut down a ramp. That way it will keep mid-game FF usage to a minimum. Oh, and make FF not work on creep...or maybe half duration on creep. FF are not only for ramps, gateway units are too weak to fight straight up Zerg or Terran so FF is the only way to survive (staying on 1 base while the enemy is on 3 is not surviving) before Colossus. With FF battles are balanced so I really don't understand why you want them to be nerfed. Protoss definitely isn't too strong early/mid game and late game there are ways to deal with FF But mid-game battles are not balanced with good FF usage. Watch Miniguns stream sometime..... Again, I'm not suggesting to remove all FF from the game. I just want to keep the mass FF usage down. Watching someone with 10 sentries/7 stalkers/10 lots and 2 colossi vs almost any number of roach/ling/hydra is SOOOOO painful to watch. If the sentries have been sitting for any length of time, they can just blanket the entire map with FF, and there is absolutely nothing the zerg(or terran) can do about it. If a toss invested in 10 sentries, then 10 FF could cut the map up pretty well, and isn't imbalanced at all imo. However, those sentries having 40 FF total is just ludicrous, and unless you have flyers or something to break the FF, you are just screwed, period. My issues with FF isn't in their basic use, per-se, it more of the skilless spamming that kills me. It takes no skill to spam 20 FF into a zerg army and split them into 5 different balls while colossi rape them one by one, and there is literally nothing you can do about it.
This is such a ridiculous comment, and I don't think you have any idea how bad of a nerf this would be to Protoss. It doesn't matter if you find watching a Zerg ground army falter versus a Protoss ground army because of force field. Firstly, if it's just gateway units vs roach/hydra, then the Protoss army absolutely needs mass forcefields to survive. If there are colossus and you don't have corruptors, that's your own fault. Why is having 40 forcefields ridiculous? The only thing you really point out is that it doesn't take a lot of skill to spam forcefields, which says nothing about the balance or necessity of the spell.
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What would you think of making the FF smaller?
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On March 07 2011 23:28 Big-t wrote:
What would you think of making the FF smaller?
so any pressure build = autowin ?
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On March 07 2011 23:28 Big-t wrote:
What would you think of making the FF smaller?
then you cant FF the ramp with 1 FF, which results in instant loss in PvP defending a 4gate and instant loss to stim timing push.
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FF is fine PvT. If you want to bio TvP get ghosts - It's as simple as that.
FF is a major problem in ZvP combined with collossi. I wouldn't call it imba - but nobody has managed to solve it yet. I don't see the patch change that...
Drops being unstoppable PvT without templar warp-ins is retarded! Do like the rest of us and get map controll, set a flyer on patrol mode or keep 5 stalkers in base... Dont tank damage with probes(lol) but run away with them. Phoenix are perfect against medivacs btw - dont know why P don use them more. Perfect scouts also.
I think removing the amulet will give T better lategame options against P since bio is roflbad late TvP, and mech is so slow your grandmother with an apm of 5 will kill you with voidray/warp-in harass on the new bigger maps.
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On March 07 2011 23:26 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 23:18 Sm3agol wrote:On March 07 2011 23:06 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:49 Sm3agol wrote:On March 07 2011 22:38 freetgy wrote:On March 07 2011 22:33 Sm3agol wrote:
Why not put forcefields on a cooldown timer, and put hallucinate as a cyber-core cooldown ability, able to activate anywhere you have sight?
Instant sentry "nerf" while simultaneously allowing them to still properly defend ramps and such on warp-in.......So you can still drop FF and hold ramps, but you can't build up 4 FF per sentry and drop 20 FF with 5 sentries. Noone feedbacks sentries anyways, and if you have the 10 sentries necessary for ridiculous amounts of FF, then you're so far behind in gas that you're screwed. I think this would instantly nerf toss mid-late game while simultaneously not affecting their early game.
and how are you supposed to control the masses of Zergunits attacking you?Screw Protoss their design is balanced around that. Gateway Units Suck unless you go all-in with them. Any Nerf of either Forcefield or T3 Units(Colossus/HT) have to come with a good buff of Gateway units. cause those are the things that keep up Protoss in the game and can win the game if the opponent isn't adapting properly. watch dreamhack finals godsake Mana had both Colossus and Warp-In Storms and still barely survived against Naama in most of the games, funny since HT should be the kill everything with 3 storms unit after instant storms are ready isn't it? How? Give sentries a cooldown with a length equivalent to however long it takes to build up 50 energy. That way sentries are still just as useful early game, as they can still throw down FF on spawning and ~4 or 5 can permanently lock down a ramp, but those 4 or 5 can't build up 200 energy and completely dominate a battlefield 5 minutes later. I'd even go as far as shortening the cooldown timer by quite a bit to encourage less sentry use......so 3 sentries can permanently shut down a ramp. That way it will keep mid-game FF usage to a minimum. Oh, and make FF not work on creep...or maybe half duration on creep. FF are not only for ramps, gateway units are too weak to fight straight up Zerg or Terran so FF is the only way to survive (staying on 1 base while the enemy is on 3 is not surviving) before Colossus. With FF battles are balanced so I really don't understand why you want them to be nerfed. Protoss definitely isn't too strong early/mid game and late game there are ways to deal with FF But mid-game battles are not balanced with good FF usage. Watch Miniguns stream sometime..... Again, I'm not suggesting to remove all FF from the game. I just want to keep the mass FF usage down. Watching someone with 10 sentries/7 stalkers/10 lots and 2 colossi vs almost any number of roach/ling/hydra is SOOOOO painful to watch. If the sentries have been sitting for any length of time, they can just blanket the entire map with FF, and there is absolutely nothing the zerg(or terran) can do about it. If a toss invested in 10 sentries, then 10 FF could cut the map up pretty well, and isn't imbalanced at all imo. However, those sentries having 40 FF total is just ludicrous, and unless you have flyers or something to break the FF, you are just screwed, period. My issues with FF isn't in their basic use, per-se, it more of the skilless spamming that kills me. It takes no skill to spam 20 FF into a zerg army and split them into 5 different balls while colossi rape them one by one, and there is literally nothing you can do about it. This is such a ridiculous comment, and I don't think you have any idea how bad of a nerf this would be to Protoss. It doesn't matter if you find watching a Zerg ground army falter versus a Protoss ground army because of force field. Firstly, if it's just gateway units vs roach/hydra, then the Protoss army absolutely needs mass forcefields to survive. If there are colossus and you don't have corruptors, that's your own fault. Why is having 40 forcefields ridiculous? The only thing you really point out is that it doesn't take a lot of skill to spam forcefields, which says nothing about the balance or necessity of the spell.
So if I don't have the specific counter to a unit, I'm just dead? Seriously? Is that actually how this game works? I can't utilize my hardier roaches or queens or hydras because none of them will do anything? Sigh...
This honestly sounds more like you want Sentries to have a lower energy cap, not that FF is too powerful. The main issue IMO is that Zerg deals with FF and Colossus so poorly. Corruptors really seem to be the only choice, and if it has to be the only choice, it should have a better ability against ground units.
I mean let's face it. The Corruptor wins the award for the dullest, most boring unit in the game. Moderate Damage and good stats. Micro for the unit consists entirely of Focus-Firing and using its mindless, nonstrategic ability. It fulfills its role in the zerg army and nothing else.
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On March 07 2011 23:42 Cibron wrote:
I wouldn't call it imba - but nobody has managed to solve it yet. I don't see the patch change that...
So the several close as hell PvZ series at IEM proved that "nobody has managed to solve it yet"?
Any drastic change to forcefields would completely break PvZ since zerg units are so much more effective fore their cost. That's the whole point of the design of protoss. Their insanely expensive units must like never die because you can't afford to reinforce any larger part of your army later on. If a big enough part of your ball dies then you are dead.
Depending on the state of the game, losing ~50 supply of roach/hydra while taking out 4 colossi with the corruptors might very well be worth it.
It's gettin really tiresome to repeat again and again that you can't just point at the fact that forcefields/colossi kill the "front line" that has been force-fielded off quickly without taking the better zerg macro into account.
This holds true also for sentries. One sentry costs 100 gas, this is extremely gas-heavy especially later on, when you need every last bit of gas for your tech-units.
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Dalavita, you claim that Gateway units can break even vs MM. I agree that this is the case in small numbers, but MM becomes more and more dominating as critical mass is reached. Go into the unit tester, take 30 marines and 15 marauders (which is 60 supply) with stim, Combat Shield and Concussive Shell, and try to break even with a 60 supply gateway army of your choosing, with Charge and Blink available.
I actually tried a few times, with a 18 Zealot/6 Sentry/6 Stalker, and the MM ball would win decisively with just stim a-move, vs Guardian shields and FF being laid down. I'm fully expecting the result to be even more lopsided at higher supply counts.
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On March 07 2011 23:59 Toadvine wrote:
Dalavita, you claim that Gateway units can break even vs MM. I agree that this is the case in small numbers, but MM becomes more and more dominating as critical mass is reached. Go into the unit tester, take 30 marines and 15 marauders (which is 60 supply) with stim, Combat Shield and Concussive Shell, and try to break even with a 60 supply gateway army of your choosing, with Charge and Blink available.
I actually tried a few times, with a 18 Zealot/6 Sentry/6 Stalker, and the MM ball would win decisively with just stim a-move, vs Guardian shields and FF being laid down. I'm fully expecting the result to be even more lopsided at higher supply counts.
Two things.
People were wondering how to deal with terran drops in the endgame with the amulet nerf.
I mentioned chargelots and blink stalkers, remember, it's an endgame situation.
Drops are by design, small scale battles of maximum 8 marines. I know that Terran bio (mainly marines, marauders aren't that good, especially against chargelots with blink stalker support) reaches critical mass, but the argument was something else entirely.
When I mention gateway units breaking even with MM in actual battles, those are also small scale earlygame battles. I have no clue how an endgame situation will play out with upgraded terran T1 vs upgraded (charge+blink, hell maybe even hallucination to have fake units absorb damage if you got teh energy for it) gateway units, and I don't have time to test it right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if the MM won.
Also, your 18 zealot/6 sentry/6 stalker example, was it chargelots or zealots.
The difference between the two is actually out of this world.
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On March 07 2011 23:21 Roeder wrote:
All those guys crying about FF are probably the guys going MMM bowl vs toss. (Marauder, marauder, marauder).
We can't fend off an early T push unless we're using FF to both grant us high ground or force you back while CBing Warpgates for more units. Unless we can get our pylons to "Lower".
Also the MMM bowl is utter superior to gateway units, if we don't have FF.
Stim and medivacs, anyone?
As a Terran player I hope to god they don't remove force fields from the game. They're fantastic as a spectator and also add a lot of strategy to planning attacks that otherwise wouldn't be there, as well as work as a gas dump for Protoss. Plus sentries are super weak to EMP and I go early ghost. 
Also that last statement is kinda silly. Gateway units are utterly superior to Barracks units if they don't have stim. Force field anyone?
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On March 08 2011 00:13 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 23:59 Toadvine wrote:
Dalavita, you claim that Gateway units can break even vs MM. I agree that this is the case in small numbers, but MM becomes more and more dominating as critical mass is reached. Go into the unit tester, take 30 marines and 15 marauders (which is 60 supply) with stim, Combat Shield and Concussive Shell, and try to break even with a 60 supply gateway army of your choosing, with Charge and Blink available.
I actually tried a few times, with a 18 Zealot/6 Sentry/6 Stalker, and the MM ball would win decisively with just stim a-move, vs Guardian shields and FF being laid down. I'm fully expecting the result to be even more lopsided at higher supply counts. Two things. People were wondering how to deal with terran drops in the endgame with the amulet nerf. I mentioned chargelots and blink stalkers, remember, it's an endgame situation. Drops are by design, small scale battles of maximum 8 marines. I know that Terran bio (mainly marines, marauders aren't that good, especially against chargelots with blink stalker support) reaches critical mass, but the argument was something else entirely. When I mention gateway units breaking even with MM in actual battles, those are also small scale earlygame battles. I have no clue how an endgame situation will play out with upgraded terran T1 vs upgraded (charge+blink, hell maybe even hallucination to have fake units absorb damage if you got teh energy for it) gateway units, and I don't have time to test it right now, but I wouldn't be surprised if the MM won. Also, your 18 zealot/6 sentry/6 stalker example, was it chargelots or zealots. The difference between the two is actually out of this world.
He mentioned charge, so I think that's what he means. The key thing to remember is that there are so many AOE units for Protoss to use against the ball of biological units. Trying to use gateway units against a similar sized bio ball is not the right choice most of the time. It's hard to tech to those units while surviving against pushes, drops, and trying to manage expanding. But that's how PvT is. It always has been in SC2, and always will be. Trying to complain gateway units don't work against bio is worthless, because they're not intended to.
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On March 08 2011 00:39 Wolf wrote:
He mentioned charge, so I think that's what he means. The key thing to remember is that there are so many AOE units for Protoss to use against the ball of biological units. Trying to use gateway units against a similar sized bio ball is not the right choice most of the time. It's hard to tech to those units while surviving against pushes, drops, and trying to manage expanding. But that's how PvT is. It always has been in SC2, and always will be. Trying to complain gateway units don't work against bio is worthless, because they're not intended to.
My point was that gateway units can work to stop drops, something people complained about because of the templar nerf.
(That's not even considering the fact that if he gets to drop your base you weren't scouting to begin with.)
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On March 07 2011 23:18 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 23:06 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:49 Sm3agol wrote:On March 07 2011 22:38 freetgy wrote:On March 07 2011 22:33 Sm3agol wrote:
Why not put forcefields on a cooldown timer, and put hallucinate as a cyber-core cooldown ability, able to activate anywhere you have sight?
Instant sentry "nerf" while simultaneously allowing them to still properly defend ramps and such on warp-in.......So you can still drop FF and hold ramps, but you can't build up 4 FF per sentry and drop 20 FF with 5 sentries. Noone feedbacks sentries anyways, and if you have the 10 sentries necessary for ridiculous amounts of FF, then you're so far behind in gas that you're screwed. I think this would instantly nerf toss mid-late game while simultaneously not affecting their early game.
and how are you supposed to control the masses of Zergunits attacking you?Screw Protoss their design is balanced around that. Gateway Units Suck unless you go all-in with them. Any Nerf of either Forcefield or T3 Units(Colossus/HT) have to come with a good buff of Gateway units. cause those are the things that keep up Protoss in the game and can win the game if the opponent isn't adapting properly. watch dreamhack finals godsake Mana had both Colossus and Warp-In Storms and still barely survived against Naama in most of the games, funny since HT should be the kill everything with 3 storms unit after instant storms are ready isn't it? How? Give sentries a cooldown with a length equivalent to however long it takes to build up 50 energy. That way sentries are still just as useful early game, as they can still throw down FF on spawning and ~4 or 5 can permanently lock down a ramp, but those 4 or 5 can't build up 200 energy and completely dominate a battlefield 5 minutes later. I'd even go as far as shortening the cooldown timer by quite a bit to encourage less sentry use......so 3 sentries can permanently shut down a ramp. That way it will keep mid-game FF usage to a minimum. Oh, and make FF not work on creep...or maybe half duration on creep. FF are not only for ramps, gateway units are too weak to fight straight up Zerg or Terran so FF is the only way to survive (staying on 1 base while the enemy is on 3 is not surviving) before Colossus. With FF battles are balanced so I really don't understand why you want them to be nerfed. Protoss definitely isn't too strong early/mid game and late game there are ways to deal with FF But mid-game battles are not balanced with good FF usage. Watch Miniguns stream sometime..... Again, I'm not suggesting to remove all FF from the game. I just want to keep the mass FF usage down. Watching someone with 10 sentries/7 stalkers/10 lots and 2 colossi vs almost any number of roach/ling/hydra is SOOOOO painful to watch. If the sentries have been sitting for any length of time, they can just blanket the entire map with FF, and there is absolutely nothing the zerg(or terran) can do about it. If a toss invested in 10 sentries, then 10 FF could cut the map up pretty well, and isn't imbalanced at all imo. However, those sentries having 40 FF total is just ludicrous, and unless you have flyers or something to break the FF, you are just screwed, period. My issues with FF isn't in their basic use, per-se, it more of the skilless spamming that kills me. It takes no skill to spam 20 FF into a zerg army and split them into 5 different balls while colossi rape them one by one, and there is literally nothing you can do about it.
Just upgrade tunneling claws and you are OK as a Zerg and Terran is OK by default. There might be problems in PvZ but FF is not part of them. Just play a few games as P and see what happens when you don't split the enemy's army before you have at least 3 colossus. If gateway units are not change FF can not be nerfed in any way and since I can't see Blizzard buffing gateway units anytime soon FF will stay as they are.
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On March 07 2011 23:25 Hane wrote:
10sentries = 1k gaz man, and protoss early/mid is balanced around FF. I don't know why 1k gaz shouldn't allow me to spam ff instead of teching.
Failing a ff wall = you die
failing ff ramp = you die
no mana = you die.
want more ?
That's true but you do realize that Zerg cannot affect your forcefield usage? It's only about your skill. Zerg doesn't have any caster that removes forcefields or something like that
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On March 08 2011 04:10 epoc wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 23:25 Hane wrote:
10sentries = 1k gaz man, and protoss early/mid is balanced around FF. I don't know why 1k gaz shouldn't allow me to spam ff instead of teching.
Failing a ff wall = you die
failing ff ramp = you die
no mana = you die.
want more ? That's true but you do realize that Zerg cannot affect your forcefield usage? It's only about your skill. Zerg doesn't have any caster that removes forcefields or something like that
Ultras?
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On March 08 2011 04:22 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 04:10 epoc wrote:On March 07 2011 23:25 Hane wrote:
10sentries = 1k gaz man, and protoss early/mid is balanced around FF. I don't know why 1k gaz shouldn't allow me to spam ff instead of teching.
Failing a ff wall = you die
failing ff ramp = you die
no mana = you die.
want more ? That's true but you do realize that Zerg cannot affect your forcefield usage? It's only about your skill. Zerg doesn't have any caster that removes forcefields or something like that Ultras?
fastest ultra build is like 10-12 mins
but then you lose
lol
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On March 07 2011 23:52 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 23:26 Salv wrote:On March 07 2011 23:18 Sm3agol wrote:On March 07 2011 23:06 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:49 Sm3agol wrote:On March 07 2011 22:38 freetgy wrote:On March 07 2011 22:33 Sm3agol wrote:
Why not put forcefields on a cooldown timer, and put hallucinate as a cyber-core cooldown ability, able to activate anywhere you have sight?
Instant sentry "nerf" while simultaneously allowing them to still properly defend ramps and such on warp-in.......So you can still drop FF and hold ramps, but you can't build up 4 FF per sentry and drop 20 FF with 5 sentries. Noone feedbacks sentries anyways, and if you have the 10 sentries necessary for ridiculous amounts of FF, then you're so far behind in gas that you're screwed. I think this would instantly nerf toss mid-late game while simultaneously not affecting their early game.
and how are you supposed to control the masses of Zergunits attacking you?Screw Protoss their design is balanced around that. Gateway Units Suck unless you go all-in with them. Any Nerf of either Forcefield or T3 Units(Colossus/HT) have to come with a good buff of Gateway units. cause those are the things that keep up Protoss in the game and can win the game if the opponent isn't adapting properly. watch dreamhack finals godsake Mana had both Colossus and Warp-In Storms and still barely survived against Naama in most of the games, funny since HT should be the kill everything with 3 storms unit after instant storms are ready isn't it? How? Give sentries a cooldown with a length equivalent to however long it takes to build up 50 energy. That way sentries are still just as useful early game, as they can still throw down FF on spawning and ~4 or 5 can permanently lock down a ramp, but those 4 or 5 can't build up 200 energy and completely dominate a battlefield 5 minutes later. I'd even go as far as shortening the cooldown timer by quite a bit to encourage less sentry use......so 3 sentries can permanently shut down a ramp. That way it will keep mid-game FF usage to a minimum. Oh, and make FF not work on creep...or maybe half duration on creep. FF are not only for ramps, gateway units are too weak to fight straight up Zerg or Terran so FF is the only way to survive (staying on 1 base while the enemy is on 3 is not surviving) before Colossus. With FF battles are balanced so I really don't understand why you want them to be nerfed. Protoss definitely isn't too strong early/mid game and late game there are ways to deal with FF But mid-game battles are not balanced with good FF usage. Watch Miniguns stream sometime..... Again, I'm not suggesting to remove all FF from the game. I just want to keep the mass FF usage down. Watching someone with 10 sentries/7 stalkers/10 lots and 2 colossi vs almost any number of roach/ling/hydra is SOOOOO painful to watch. If the sentries have been sitting for any length of time, they can just blanket the entire map with FF, and there is absolutely nothing the zerg(or terran) can do about it. If a toss invested in 10 sentries, then 10 FF could cut the map up pretty well, and isn't imbalanced at all imo. However, those sentries having 40 FF total is just ludicrous, and unless you have flyers or something to break the FF, you are just screwed, period. My issues with FF isn't in their basic use, per-se, it more of the skilless spamming that kills me. It takes no skill to spam 20 FF into a zerg army and split them into 5 different balls while colossi rape them one by one, and there is literally nothing you can do about it. This is such a ridiculous comment, and I don't think you have any idea how bad of a nerf this would be to Protoss. It doesn't matter if you find watching a Zerg ground army falter versus a Protoss ground army because of force field. Firstly, if it's just gateway units vs roach/hydra, then the Protoss army absolutely needs mass forcefields to survive. If there are colossus and you don't have corruptors, that's your own fault. Why is having 40 forcefields ridiculous? The only thing you really point out is that it doesn't take a lot of skill to spam forcefields, which says nothing about the balance or necessity of the spell. So if I don't have the specific counter to a unit, I'm just dead? Seriously? Is that actually how this game works? I can't utilize my hardier roaches or queens or hydras because none of them will do anything? Sigh... This honestly sounds more like you want Sentries to have a lower energy cap, not that FF is too powerful. The main issue IMO is that Zerg deals with FF and Colossus so poorly. Corruptors really seem to be the only choice, and if it has to be the only choice, it should have a better ability against ground units. I mean let's face it. The Corruptor wins the award for the dullest, most boring unit in the game. Moderate Damage and good stats. Micro for the unit consists entirely of Focus-Firing and using its mindless, nonstrategic ability. It fulfills its role in the zerg army and nothing else.
Uh yeah, welcome to Starcraft II. 'What, you have mass bio and I don't have AOE - well that's stupid, I can't win because I don't have AOE." Starcraft II is a game of counters, if you don't have the correct unit composition, you're going to lose really badly, worse than if you had mediocre macro but the right composition at least.
I don't want anything to be done to the sentry, that was the position I was am arguing against. Yes, if the Protoss makes colossus, you need corruptor, but since that's the case with all the races in a variety of situations, I don't see why this is a problem. How can someone be upset that they can't just mass their two ground units to max, which a Zerg does far before a Protoss maxes, and then tool the Protoss army - right now the only reason you can't do that is because of forcefield.
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