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On March 07 2011 22:14 ELESSAR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection. That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar. On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion. Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ? And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple. They WILL NEVER change every Protoss unit at the same time, NEVER! So stop saying that if they do things will be balanced. Not to mention that before charge zealots are only good for tanking damage unless you mange to trap units with FF. Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M
Of course they will never do what I say, because blizzard's balance team is clueless. I mean seriously, everybody agrees that the problem in ZvP is FF and Colossi combo, and they nerf Templar, which is one of the few T3 skilled units that need some protection and some micro to be usefull ?
Maybe you actually think the protoss design at the moment is good ? well you're are wrong. Basically you have gateway units that are overeasy to use with 4 gate, absolutly pointless in end game except for meat shield, and T3 units that are a click roflstomper. Compare colossi to reaver ? Both deal awesome splash damage, but one is just a aclick monster with massive HP, while the other is a hardcore micro units that only the greatest can use. There is a flaw in the whole protoss design, I'm not suggesting a nerf, I think you misunderstood me, I'm for a refound of the entire race.
Warp gate in the twilight council (so that to get it you actually have to invest in a tech tree).
Buff zealot / sentry
Nerf FF
Change colossi (I would say, way less HP, more damage and less attack speed, more mobility and less range like 7 range with no upgrade. I think this will make a good unit).
Kadarin amulet back with +15 or +20 mana.
Maybe the immortal need some kind of buff.
But yeah, I'm dreaming for a game with more diversity and more skill needed.
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On March 08 2011 04:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:14 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection. That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar. On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion. Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ? And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple. They WILL NEVER change every Protoss unit at the same time, NEVER! So stop saying that if they do things will be balanced. Not to mention that before charge zealots are only good for tanking damage unless you mange to trap units with FF. Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M Of course they will never do what I say, because blizzard's balance team is clueless. I mean seriously, everybody agrees that the problem in ZvP is FF and Colossi combo, and they nerf Templar, which is one of the few T3 skilled units that need some protection and some micro to be usefull ? Maybe you actually think the protoss design at the moment is good ? well you're are wrong. Basically you have gateway units that are overeasy to use with 4 gate, absolutly pointless in end game except for meat shield, and T3 units that are a click roflstomper. Compare colossi to reaver ? Both deal awesome splash damage, but one is just a aclick monster with massive HP, while the other is a hardcore micro units that only the greatest can use. There is a flaw in the whole protoss design, I'm not suggesting a nerf, I think you misunderstood me, I'm for a refound of the entire race. Warp gate in the twilight council (so that to get it you actually have to invest in a tech tree). Buff zealot / sentry Nerf FF Change colossi (I would say, way less HP, more damage and less attack speed, more mobility and less range like 7 range with no upgrade. I think this will make a good unit). Kadarin amulet back with +15 or +20 mana. Maybe the immortal need some kind of buff. But yeah, I'm dreaming for a game with more diversity and more skill needed.
If Warp gate was researched in the Twilight Council, Terran may as well go 15CC because Protoss cannot attack for ages. Even with WG at the cyber core, Protoss has barely any units in the early game, and one missed FF can be GG. Making WG at the Twilight Council dosen't give diversity, it means Protoss has to stay on one base for way longer, unless u Forge expand or something. But if u do a forge expand, u won't have WG even longer (and thts only viable against zerg).
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Ok, tested it with another player. medivac, 2 marauders, 4 marines against 4 chargelots one stalker, the chargelots and stalkers won. 8 marines + medivac, chargelots+stalker won.
Test it yourself or dont evolve, gl.
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On March 08 2011 04:30 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:14 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection. That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar. On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion. Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ? And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple. They WILL NEVER change every Protoss unit at the same time, NEVER! So stop saying that if they do things will be balanced. Not to mention that before charge zealots are only good for tanking damage unless you mange to trap units with FF. Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M Of course they will never do what I say, because blizzard's balance team is clueless. I mean seriously, everybody agrees that the problem in ZvP is FF and Colossi combo, and they nerf Templar, which is one of the few T3 skilled units that need some protection and some micro to be usefull ? Maybe you actually think the protoss design at the moment is good ? well you're are wrong. Basically you have gateway units that are overeasy to use with 4 gate, absolutly pointless in end game except for meat shield, and T3 units that are a click roflstomper. Compare colossi to reaver ? Both deal awesome splash damage, but one is just a aclick monster with massive HP, while the other is a hardcore micro units that only the greatest can use. There is a flaw in the whole protoss design, I'm not suggesting a nerf, I think you misunderstood me, I'm for a refound of the entire race. Warp gate in the twilight council (so that to get it you actually have to invest in a tech tree). Buff zealot / sentry Nerf FF Change colossi (I would say, way less HP, more damage and less attack speed, more mobility and less range like 7 range with no upgrade. I think this will make a good unit). Kadarin amulet back with +15 or +20 mana. Maybe the immortal need some kind of buff. But yeah, I'm dreaming for a game with more diversity and more skill needed.
Okay, I don't know what division you are in but having the Warp Gate in the twilight council is dumb. You understand that Protoss is probably the only race that goes tier 3 (colossus) every game right. You don't see Terran going thors or bcs or Zerg going ultras or broodlords. Every one needs to stop crying about the Colossus. If you are fighting them with just MM or Roach/Hydra please try getting some tier 3 units to counter them.
Also,buff zealot and sentry? Zealot already has the most hp for a starting unit. Sentry's aren't made for fighting but for their spells.
Having the Kadarin Amulet back will just make all the terran players complain again that temps just eat up their bio ball when they could be going tanks/banshees.
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On March 08 2011 04:49 Dalavita wrote:
Ok, tested it with another player. medivac, 2 marauders, 4 marines against 4 chargelots one stalker, the chargelots and stalkers won. 8 marines + medivac, chargelots+stalker won.
Test it yourself or dont evolve, gl.
You're a total troll. Vids/replays or it never happened (or you didnt micro).
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On March 08 2011 04:54 -Jacob- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 04:30 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 22:14 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection. That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar. On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion. Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ? And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple. They WILL NEVER change every Protoss unit at the same time, NEVER! So stop saying that if they do things will be balanced. Not to mention that before charge zealots are only good for tanking damage unless you mange to trap units with FF. Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M Of course they will never do what I say, because blizzard's balance team is clueless. I mean seriously, everybody agrees that the problem in ZvP is FF and Colossi combo, and they nerf Templar, which is one of the few T3 skilled units that need some protection and some micro to be usefull ? Maybe you actually think the protoss design at the moment is good ? well you're are wrong. Basically you have gateway units that are overeasy to use with 4 gate, absolutly pointless in end game except for meat shield, and T3 units that are a click roflstomper. Compare colossi to reaver ? Both deal awesome splash damage, but one is just a aclick monster with massive HP, while the other is a hardcore micro units that only the greatest can use. There is a flaw in the whole protoss design, I'm not suggesting a nerf, I think you misunderstood me, I'm for a refound of the entire race. Warp gate in the twilight council (so that to get it you actually have to invest in a tech tree). Buff zealot / sentry Nerf FF Change colossi (I would say, way less HP, more damage and less attack speed, more mobility and less range like 7 range with no upgrade. I think this will make a good unit). Kadarin amulet back with +15 or +20 mana. Maybe the immortal need some kind of buff. But yeah, I'm dreaming for a game with more diversity and more skill needed. Okay, I don't know what division you are in but having the Warp Gate in the twilight council is dumb. You understand that Protoss is probably the only race that goes tier 3 (colossus) every game right. You don't see Terran going thors or bcs or Zerg going ultras or broodlords. Every one needs to stop crying about the Colossus. If you are fighting them with just MM or Roach/Hydra please try getting some tier 3 units to counter them. Also,buff zealot and sentry? Zealot already has the most hp for a starting unit. Sentry's aren't made for fighting but for their spells. Having the Kadarin Amulet back will just make all the terran players complain again that temps just eat up their bio ball when they could be going tanks/banshees.
I'm 3k master on EU, Zealots were nerf at the beginning of SC2 mainly because of warpgate. They were to good with a 4gate.
There is a reason why Terran don't always go Thor, why zerg are having trouble going ultra & broodlord, and why protoss always go T3, and that is because protoss' T3 is way more effective and solid than other race's T3 (especially zerg).
Protoss goes T3, yes, but not in PvP, and they almost always go for colossi before templar. Templar and a heavy gateway force on one side and a heavy robotic force on the other should be the basic two tech paths imo.
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On March 08 2011 04:45 blooblooblahblah wrote:If Warp gate was researched in the Twilight Council, Terran may as well go 15CC because Protoss cannot attack for ages. Even with WG at the cyber core, Protoss has barely any units in the early game, and one missed FF can be GG. Making WG at the Twilight Council dosen't give diversity, it means Protoss has to stay on one base for way longer, unless u Forge expand or something. But if u do a forge expand, u won't have WG even longer (and thts only viable against zerg).
Not that i'm a fan of twilight council warpgate, just want to clarify something. Protoss have so little units at the start of the game because they choose to. It's certainly possible to produce a lot of units early as protoss. Just build 2 gates and constantly use them.
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On March 08 2011 04:55 mads wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 04:49 Dalavita wrote:
Ok, tested it with another player. medivac, 2 marauders, 4 marines against 4 chargelots one stalker, the chargelots and stalkers won. 8 marines + medivac, chargelots+stalker won.
Test it yourself or dont evolve, gl. You're a total troll. Vids/replays or it never happened (or you didnt micro).
He probably just a moved them into each other.
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On March 08 2011 05:11 Lurk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 04:45 blooblooblahblah wrote:If Warp gate was researched in the Twilight Council, Terran may as well go 15CC because Protoss cannot attack for ages. Even with WG at the cyber core, Protoss has barely any units in the early game, and one missed FF can be GG. Making WG at the Twilight Council dosen't give diversity, it means Protoss has to stay on one base for way longer, unless u Forge expand or something. But if u do a forge expand, u won't have WG even longer (and thts only viable against zerg). Not that i'm a fan of twilight council warpgate, just want to clarify something. Protoss have so little units at the start of the game because they choose to. It's certainly possible to produce a lot of units early as protoss. Just build 2 gates and constantly use them.
But 2 gates without WG isn't enough to expand on. It's not tht we don't choose to have more units, gateway units take forever to make and we don't have reactors and stuff. I'm not complaining about this but i think it's unreasonable to have WG at the Twilight Council as it really dosen't allow any FE builds as u can only defend ur ramp.
Another reason is tht if u go Twilight Council b4 Robo, cloacked banshees will just destroy u. However if u go robo first, ur WG is delayed even more making it extremely risky to expand, attack or do anything tht involves moving outside your base. Ppl will turtle and the game could possibly become worse.
Nerfing Protoss early-game is just a step backwards. Its really the Colossi tht needs adressing (and IMO they should've adressed the Colossi b4 the HT over-nerf)
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On March 08 2011 05:04 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 04:54 -Jacob- wrote:On March 08 2011 04:30 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 22:14 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection. That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar. On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion. Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ? And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple. They WILL NEVER change every Protoss unit at the same time, NEVER! So stop saying that if they do things will be balanced. Not to mention that before charge zealots are only good for tanking damage unless you mange to trap units with FF. Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M Of course they will never do what I say, because blizzard's balance team is clueless. I mean seriously, everybody agrees that the problem in ZvP is FF and Colossi combo, and they nerf Templar, which is one of the few T3 skilled units that need some protection and some micro to be usefull ? Maybe you actually think the protoss design at the moment is good ? well you're are wrong. Basically you have gateway units that are overeasy to use with 4 gate, absolutly pointless in end game except for meat shield, and T3 units that are a click roflstomper. Compare colossi to reaver ? Both deal awesome splash damage, but one is just a aclick monster with massive HP, while the other is a hardcore micro units that only the greatest can use. There is a flaw in the whole protoss design, I'm not suggesting a nerf, I think you misunderstood me, I'm for a refound of the entire race. Warp gate in the twilight council (so that to get it you actually have to invest in a tech tree). Buff zealot / sentry Nerf FF Change colossi (I would say, way less HP, more damage and less attack speed, more mobility and less range like 7 range with no upgrade. I think this will make a good unit). Kadarin amulet back with +15 or +20 mana. Maybe the immortal need some kind of buff. But yeah, I'm dreaming for a game with more diversity and more skill needed. Okay, I don't know what division you are in but having the Warp Gate in the twilight council is dumb. You understand that Protoss is probably the only race that goes tier 3 (colossus) every game right. You don't see Terran going thors or bcs or Zerg going ultras or broodlords. Every one needs to stop crying about the Colossus. If you are fighting them with just MM or Roach/Hydra please try getting some tier 3 units to counter them. Also,buff zealot and sentry? Zealot already has the most hp for a starting unit. Sentry's aren't made for fighting but for their spells. Having the Kadarin Amulet back will just make all the terran players complain again that temps just eat up their bio ball when they could be going tanks/banshees. I'm 3k master on EU, Zealots were nerf at the beginning of SC2 mainly because of warpgate. They were to good with a 4gate. There is a reason why Terran don't always go Thor, why zerg are having trouble going ultra & broodlord, and why protoss always go T3, and that is because protoss' T3 is way more effective and solid than other race's T3 (especially zerg). Protoss goes T3, yes, but not in PvP, and they almost always go for colossi before templar. Templar and a heavy gateway force on one side and a heavy robotic force on the other should be the basic two tech paths imo.
No, the reason behind protoss going for fast T3 units is simply that their T1 units arn't nearly close as good as terran bio or a roach/hydra comp. Protoss is relying on fast colossus simply to only stay alive.
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As a zerg player i think they shouldnt nerf T and P , they simply shall buff Z to their level.
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On March 08 2011 05:38 Omgzpwnd wrote:
As a zerg player i think they shouldnt nerf T and P , they simply shall buff Z to their level.
Yup. Ultras should be made smaller, so that more of them can dish out dmg at the same time.
That has made Thors much more usable as well.
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On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door).
Why does seemingly every other person here have anger management issues?
I can hardly parse that run-on sentence though, so I don't know what else to say really.
On March 08 2011 05:04 WhiteDog wrote:
I'm 3k master on EU, Zealots were nerf at the beginning of SC2 mainly because of warpgate. They were to good with a 4gate.
Not sure why you like to speak with so much authority when you don't even get your facts straight... the reason they nerfed zealots is because proxy gates were too good, not because 4 gate was too good. Mineral count is already a bottleneck for a proper 4 gate, so it doesn't matter that zealots build faster.
Think that's dumb and clueless? Read Blizzard's blog: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/692221
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On March 08 2011 05:22 BoeG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 05:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 08 2011 04:54 -Jacob- wrote:On March 08 2011 04:30 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 22:14 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection. That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar. On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion. Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ? And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple. They WILL NEVER change every Protoss unit at the same time, NEVER! So stop saying that if they do things will be balanced. Not to mention that before charge zealots are only good for tanking damage unless you mange to trap units with FF. Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M Of course they will never do what I say, because blizzard's balance team is clueless. I mean seriously, everybody agrees that the problem in ZvP is FF and Colossi combo, and they nerf Templar, which is one of the few T3 skilled units that need some protection and some micro to be usefull ? Maybe you actually think the protoss design at the moment is good ? well you're are wrong. Basically you have gateway units that are overeasy to use with 4 gate, absolutly pointless in end game except for meat shield, and T3 units that are a click roflstomper. Compare colossi to reaver ? Both deal awesome splash damage, but one is just a aclick monster with massive HP, while the other is a hardcore micro units that only the greatest can use. There is a flaw in the whole protoss design, I'm not suggesting a nerf, I think you misunderstood me, I'm for a refound of the entire race. Warp gate in the twilight council (so that to get it you actually have to invest in a tech tree). Buff zealot / sentry Nerf FF Change colossi (I would say, way less HP, more damage and less attack speed, more mobility and less range like 7 range with no upgrade. I think this will make a good unit). Kadarin amulet back with +15 or +20 mana. Maybe the immortal need some kind of buff. But yeah, I'm dreaming for a game with more diversity and more skill needed. Okay, I don't know what division you are in but having the Warp Gate in the twilight council is dumb. You understand that Protoss is probably the only race that goes tier 3 (colossus) every game right. You don't see Terran going thors or bcs or Zerg going ultras or broodlords. Every one needs to stop crying about the Colossus. If you are fighting them with just MM or Roach/Hydra please try getting some tier 3 units to counter them. Also,buff zealot and sentry? Zealot already has the most hp for a starting unit. Sentry's aren't made for fighting but for their spells. Having the Kadarin Amulet back will just make all the terran players complain again that temps just eat up their bio ball when they could be going tanks/banshees. I'm 3k master on EU, Zealots were nerf at the beginning of SC2 mainly because of warpgate. They were to good with a 4gate. There is a reason why Terran don't always go Thor, why zerg are having trouble going ultra & broodlord, and why protoss always go T3, and that is because protoss' T3 is way more effective and solid than other race's T3 (especially zerg). Protoss goes T3, yes, but not in PvP, and they almost always go for colossi before templar. Templar and a heavy gateway force on one side and a heavy robotic force on the other should be the basic two tech paths imo. No, the reason behind protoss going for fast T3 units is simply that their T1 units arn't nearly close as good as terran bio or a roach/hydra comp. Protoss is relying on fast colossus simply to only stay alive.
I'll start with what I think everyone is agreeing with.
1. Colossus is a very strong, and perhaps too strong, unit in non PvP.
2. Protoss early game is very defend based because of the weakness of gateway units and the power of FF.
Now, because of 1, the amulet nerf already seems retarded, noone goes templar anyway. Add back amulet, reduce colossi health to 300 (shield plus health), boom.
The second is where it gets tricky, IMO. I think that Forcefield is a little too powerful compared to a bigger, non forcefield army, because both types of defense should really be equal.
I think forcefield may need some sort of nerf, and I'm suggesting duration of forcefield. In return, buff stalker attack speed, which will not only balance the FF nerf, but make stalkers more useful later in the game, leading to a less crutch based system, the crutch being colossi. Zealot charge would also need to be a little bit better for a non colossi army, but that is going to happen, so I think that
a) colossi health nerf
b)forcefield duration nerf
c)stalker attack speed buff
will be able to, at the very least, produce interesting results in terms of balancing the game.
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On March 08 2011 05:46 Pacman234 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 05:22 BoeG wrote:On March 08 2011 05:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 08 2011 04:54 -Jacob- wrote:On March 08 2011 04:30 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 22:14 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection. That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar. On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:
[quote]
Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes.
For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion. Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ? And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple. They WILL NEVER change every Protoss unit at the same time, NEVER! So stop saying that if they do things will be balanced. Not to mention that before charge zealots are only good for tanking damage unless you mange to trap units with FF. Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M Of course they will never do what I say, because blizzard's balance team is clueless. I mean seriously, everybody agrees that the problem in ZvP is FF and Colossi combo, and they nerf Templar, which is one of the few T3 skilled units that need some protection and some micro to be usefull ? Maybe you actually think the protoss design at the moment is good ? well you're are wrong. Basically you have gateway units that are overeasy to use with 4 gate, absolutly pointless in end game except for meat shield, and T3 units that are a click roflstomper. Compare colossi to reaver ? Both deal awesome splash damage, but one is just a aclick monster with massive HP, while the other is a hardcore micro units that only the greatest can use. There is a flaw in the whole protoss design, I'm not suggesting a nerf, I think you misunderstood me, I'm for a refound of the entire race. Warp gate in the twilight council (so that to get it you actually have to invest in a tech tree). Buff zealot / sentry Nerf FF Change colossi (I would say, way less HP, more damage and less attack speed, more mobility and less range like 7 range with no upgrade. I think this will make a good unit). Kadarin amulet back with +15 or +20 mana. Maybe the immortal need some kind of buff. But yeah, I'm dreaming for a game with more diversity and more skill needed. Okay, I don't know what division you are in but having the Warp Gate in the twilight council is dumb. You understand that Protoss is probably the only race that goes tier 3 (colossus) every game right. You don't see Terran going thors or bcs or Zerg going ultras or broodlords. Every one needs to stop crying about the Colossus. If you are fighting them with just MM or Roach/Hydra please try getting some tier 3 units to counter them. Also,buff zealot and sentry? Zealot already has the most hp for a starting unit. Sentry's aren't made for fighting but for their spells. Having the Kadarin Amulet back will just make all the terran players complain again that temps just eat up their bio ball when they could be going tanks/banshees. I'm 3k master on EU, Zealots were nerf at the beginning of SC2 mainly because of warpgate. They were to good with a 4gate. There is a reason why Terran don't always go Thor, why zerg are having trouble going ultra & broodlord, and why protoss always go T3, and that is because protoss' T3 is way more effective and solid than other race's T3 (especially zerg). Protoss goes T3, yes, but not in PvP, and they almost always go for colossi before templar. Templar and a heavy gateway force on one side and a heavy robotic force on the other should be the basic two tech paths imo. No, the reason behind protoss going for fast T3 units is simply that their T1 units arn't nearly close as good as terran bio or a roach/hydra comp. Protoss is relying on fast colossus simply to only stay alive. I'll start with what I think everyone is agreeing with. 1. Colossus is a very strong, and perhaps too strong, unit in non PvP. 2. Protoss early game is very defend based because of the weakness of gateway units and the power of FF. Now, because of 1, the amulet nerf already seems retarded, noone goes templar anyway. Add back amulet, reduce colossi health to 300 (shield plus health), boom. The second is where it gets tricky, IMO. I think that Forcefield is a little too powerful compared to a bigger, non forcefield army, because both types of defense should really be equal. I think forcefield may need some sort of nerf, and I'm suggesting duration of forcefield. In return, buff stalker attack speed, which will not only balance the FF nerf, but make stalkers more useful later in the game, leading to a less crutch based system, the crutch being colossi. Zealot charge would also need to be a little bit better for a non colossi army, but that is going to happen, so I think that a) colossi health nerf b)forcefield duration nerf c)stalker attack speed buff will be able to, at the very least, produce interesting results in terms of balancing the game.
Agree, I like both the reasoning and the suggestions. Maybe then we'll get out of this ridiculous 4 gate/3 gate robo rut that we're in.
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why do ppl have a problem with FF?
Somebody fill me in...is it because they can separate an army in half or is it that they can cut reinforcements?
I mean their attack sucks and they are fragile. They are just a support unit filling its intended role IMO
Why do people say they need to be nerfed?
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On March 08 2011 05:51 Kindred wrote:
why do ppl have a problem with FF?
Somebody fill me in...is it because they can separate an army in half or is it that they can cut reinforcements?
I mean their attack sucks and they are fragile. They are just a support unit filling its intended role IMO
Why do people say they need to be nerfed?
I like sentries as they are, except for the fact that you need to rely on them so much in the early game if you intend to survive the 7-8 minute push with anything other than a huge number of gateway units.
I'm willing to give up some of sentry's utility if I can play more aggressively in exchange.
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On March 08 2011 05:51 Kindred wrote:
why do ppl have a problem with FF?
Somebody fill me in...is it because they can separate an army in half or is it that they can cut reinforcements?
I mean their attack sucks and they are fragile. They are just a support unit filling its intended role IMO
Why do people say they need to be nerfed?
I think it is becuz in ZvP, it's almost impossible to engage a Protoss deathball when they have good forcefields. However, FF is a very fragile part of Protoss early game, so i think a lot of thought and testing would need to be done to make an appropriate change to FF.
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On March 08 2011 05:46 Pacman234 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 05:22 BoeG wrote:On March 08 2011 05:04 WhiteDog wrote:On March 08 2011 04:54 -Jacob- wrote:On March 08 2011 04:30 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 22:14 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection. That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar. On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:
[quote]
Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes.
For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion. Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ? And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple. They WILL NEVER change every Protoss unit at the same time, NEVER! So stop saying that if they do things will be balanced. Not to mention that before charge zealots are only good for tanking damage unless you mange to trap units with FF. Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M Of course they will never do what I say, because blizzard's balance team is clueless. I mean seriously, everybody agrees that the problem in ZvP is FF and Colossi combo, and they nerf Templar, which is one of the few T3 skilled units that need some protection and some micro to be usefull ? Maybe you actually think the protoss design at the moment is good ? well you're are wrong. Basically you have gateway units that are overeasy to use with 4 gate, absolutly pointless in end game except for meat shield, and T3 units that are a click roflstomper. Compare colossi to reaver ? Both deal awesome splash damage, but one is just a aclick monster with massive HP, while the other is a hardcore micro units that only the greatest can use. There is a flaw in the whole protoss design, I'm not suggesting a nerf, I think you misunderstood me, I'm for a refound of the entire race. Warp gate in the twilight council (so that to get it you actually have to invest in a tech tree). Buff zealot / sentry Nerf FF Change colossi (I would say, way less HP, more damage and less attack speed, more mobility and less range like 7 range with no upgrade. I think this will make a good unit). Kadarin amulet back with +15 or +20 mana. Maybe the immortal need some kind of buff. But yeah, I'm dreaming for a game with more diversity and more skill needed. Okay, I don't know what division you are in but having the Warp Gate in the twilight council is dumb. You understand that Protoss is probably the only race that goes tier 3 (colossus) every game right. You don't see Terran going thors or bcs or Zerg going ultras or broodlords. Every one needs to stop crying about the Colossus. If you are fighting them with just MM or Roach/Hydra please try getting some tier 3 units to counter them. Also,buff zealot and sentry? Zealot already has the most hp for a starting unit. Sentry's aren't made for fighting but for their spells. Having the Kadarin Amulet back will just make all the terran players complain again that temps just eat up their bio ball when they could be going tanks/banshees. I'm 3k master on EU, Zealots were nerf at the beginning of SC2 mainly because of warpgate. They were to good with a 4gate. There is a reason why Terran don't always go Thor, why zerg are having trouble going ultra & broodlord, and why protoss always go T3, and that is because protoss' T3 is way more effective and solid than other race's T3 (especially zerg). Protoss goes T3, yes, but not in PvP, and they almost always go for colossi before templar. Templar and a heavy gateway force on one side and a heavy robotic force on the other should be the basic two tech paths imo. No, the reason behind protoss going for fast T3 units is simply that their T1 units arn't nearly close as good as terran bio or a roach/hydra comp. Protoss is relying on fast colossus simply to only stay alive. I'll start with what I think everyone is agreeing with. 1. Colossus is a very strong, and perhaps too strong, unit in non PvP. 2. Protoss early game is very defend based because of the weakness of gateway units and the power of FF. Now, because of 1, the amulet nerf already seems retarded, noone goes templar anyway. Add back amulet, reduce colossi health to 300 (shield plus health), boom. The second is where it gets tricky, IMO. I think that Forcefield is a little too powerful compared to a bigger, non forcefield army, because both types of defense should really be equal. I think forcefield may need some sort of nerf, and I'm suggesting duration of forcefield. In return, buff stalker attack speed, which will not only balance the FF nerf, but make stalkers more useful later in the game, leading to a less crutch based system, the crutch being colossi. Zealot charge would also need to be a little bit better for a non colossi army, but that is going to happen, so I think that a) colossi health nerf b)forcefield duration nerf c)stalker attack speed buff will be able to, at the very least, produce interesting results in terms of balancing the game.
I have to agree on everything but the force field duration nerf, PvP is already too 4-gate focused. I would rather like to see the energy cost for force fields instead being increased to ~65 (3 FF's instead of 4 per sentry), but also buff the starting energy to match the cost of a force field.
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On March 08 2011 05:54 blooblooblahblah wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 05:51 Kindred wrote:
why do ppl have a problem with FF?
Somebody fill me in...is it because they can separate an army in half or is it that they can cut reinforcements?
I mean their attack sucks and they are fragile. They are just a support unit filling its intended role IMO
Why do people say they need to be nerfed? I think it is becuz in ZvP, it's almost impossible to engage a Protoss deathball when they have good forcefields. However, FF is a very fragile part of Protoss early game, so i think a lot of thought and testing would need to be done to make an appropriate change to FF.
wouldnt Broodlords be a great addition then?
The Corruptors fly in to kill colossi, broodlords from a distance shoot at the ground.
and the main ground zerg army attacks and if FF stop them, Broodlords are still rendering the P ball down
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