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Scarmath
United States60 Posts
On March 08 2011 04:30 WhiteDog wrote: ...and they nerf Templar, which is one of the few T3 skilled units that need some protection and some micro to be usefull ? I hate to disagree with you, but I could use KA Templar just fine, and if I can use them, they probably don't require micro to be useful. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On March 08 2011 05:57 Kindred wrote: wouldnt Broodlords be a great addition then? The Corruptors fly in to kill colossi, broodlords from a distance shoot at the ground. and the main ground zerg army attacks and if FF stop them, Broodlords are still rendering the P ball down Broodlords are good, but blink stalkers are great against them. Also, if u over-make broodlords and have no corruptors, The deathball just destroys the zerg ground units. Btw, i play protoss so i'm not quite sure wat it feels like on the zerg side. | ||
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Kindred
Canada396 Posts
On March 08 2011 06:05 blooblooblahblah wrote: Broodlords are good, but blink stalkers are great against them. Also, if u over-make broodlords and have no corruptors, The deathball just destroys the zerg ground units. Btw, i play protoss so i'm not quite sure wat it feels like on the zerg side. Wouldnt blink stalkers blinking under your broodlords a good thing since the Deathball is broken and u can run ur main army in the now lonely stalkers? and FFs cant do much to stop ur Zerg ground force of killing the stalkers? | ||
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Hane
France210 Posts
On March 08 2011 05:46 Pacman234 wrote: a) colossi health nerf b)forcefield duration nerf c)stalker attack speed buff will be able to, at the very least, produce interesting results in terms of balancing the game. 1) => Ht 1st vs terran / zerg (like mana w/ immo+ht) 2) => dunno if you can hold the 5 first minutes of the game 3) => 4gates imba / blink stalkers total imba heh... ppl should think a bit more before posting 'how the game can be balanced' | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On March 08 2011 05:43 dump wrote: Why does seemingly every other person here have anger management issues? I can hardly parse that run-on sentence though, so I don't know what else to say really. Not sure why you like to speak with so much authority when you don't even get your facts straight... the reason they nerfed zealots is because proxy gates were too good, not because 4 gate was too good. Mineral count is already a bottleneck for a proper 4 gate, so it doesn't matter that zealots build faster. Think that's dumb and clueless? Read Blizzard's blog: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/692221 Hey hey, it has nothing to do with anger management issues: you are basically answering to me without even reading the discussion... I was not saying : nerf protoss to the ground. I know that at the moment protoss is too force field dependant, maybe you think this is actually a good way to design a race, but I don't think such a strong spell should be spammed like hell and give protoss total control over the battle field mid late game while being an absolute necessity to protoss early game defense. Everybody agree that Gateway units should be better in mid late game, but you can't buff them without delaying warp gate or 4gate will be even stronger (and I don't think that's what most of you want as PvP is already a big shit). And you can actually do wonder with a little number of FF. And thx for the blog, i bow down to you, you were right  I hate to disagree with you, but I could use KA Templar just fine, and if I can use them, they probably don't require micro to be useful. Well you need to split them against ghost, you need to actually use the spell to make them useful, and with a +15-20 mana amulet and not a +25, they will actually have to survive some second on the battlefield to use storm. That's 200% more micro than a click colossi already. No, the reason behind protoss going for fast T3 units is simply that their T1 units arn't nearly close as good as terran bio or a roach/hydra comp. Protoss is relying on fast colossus simply to only stay alive. Some protoss goes for a 2forge heavy gateway units build against terran bio, so T1 protoss units can compete against other T1, but protoss never commit too much into T1 (while terran and zerg almost only do that) because T3 is so easy to play and so good with proper FF use. | ||
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Blisse
Canada3710 Posts
But I can't think of a way for Protoss to deal with anything without the Sentry, which may be the problem itself. | ||
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Kindred
Canada396 Posts
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
On March 07 2011 21:46 PlaGuE_R wrote: you've no idea do you? stim plus medivac will rape everything you just mentioned, plus i fail how 5 chargelots can kill a medivac but ok. that's why when terran drops protoss you pray for 1 of 2 things. A) u spot it and snipe the medivac with stalkers before it unloads, B) your templar and chargelots warp in fast enough that your nexus doesnt die. I think you've uncovered the real problem here - it's the Nexus dying. Blizzard already put Zerg and Protoss mains to 1000 up from 750 for this very reason, a stimmed terran drop, specifically with marauders absoloutely destroys buildings very very quickly. It makes for good action and tension but it's also a little damned shitty. I don't want Warcraft 3 level buildings here but there needs to be a compromise. I've seen many a game where a stimmed drop destroys a building even though it has been spotted! - stimmed focus fire on a tech structure and bam - it's gone, most importantly, it's gone all too fast. | ||
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dump
Japan514 Posts
On March 08 2011 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: Hey hey, it has nothing to do with anger management issues: you are basically answering to me without even reading the discussion... I was not saying : nerf protoss to the ground. I know that at the moment protoss is too force field dependant, maybe you think this is actually a good way to design a race, but I don't think such a strong spell should be spammed like hell and give protoss total control over the battle field mid late game while being an absolute necessity to protoss early game defense. Everybody agree that Gateway units should be better in mid late game, but you can't buff them without delaying warp gate or 4gate will be even stronger (and I don't think that's what most of you want as PvP is already a big shit). I've been reading and participating in the discussion since about page 80. I never suggested that you said nerf protoss "into the ground", I said I don't agree with limiting the number of force fields you can use or moving warp gate into twilight council. Also, although warping to a proxy pylon does add an edge, simply delaying warp gate doesn't change the fundamental problem. Instead of having 4 gateways people will just use 5. That's only a 150 mineral investment anyway. I'm up for a sentry nerf if something else is buffed in its place. The reason is that the races are currently more or less balanced, especially in the early game, so just nerfing sentry or warp gate will result in protoss losing more games than the other races. The problem is that protoss has to use clutch force fields to survive the 7 minute push, unless they 4 gate. After that it's the drudgery of the colossus death ball -- and if you've been reading my comments throughout the thread, I've said more than 3 times that I'm absolutely sick of it. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On March 08 2011 06:51 dump wrote: I've been reading and participating in the discussion since about page 80. I never suggested that you said nerf protoss "into the ground", I said I don't agree with limiting the number of force fields you can use or moving warp gate into twilight council. Also, although warping to a proxy pylon does add an edge, simply delaying warp gate doesn't change the fundamental problem. Instead of having 4 gateways people will just use 5. That's only a 150 mineral investment anyway. I'm up for a sentry nerf if something else is buffed in its place. The reason is that the races are currently more or less balanced, especially in the early game, so just nerfing sentry or warp gate will result in protoss losing more games than the other races. The problem is that protoss has to use clutch force fields to survive the 7 minute push, unless they 4 gate. After that it's the drudgery of the colossus death ball -- and if you've been reading my comments throughout the thread, I've said more than 3 times that I'm absolutely sick of it. I understand your point, my problem is that Colossi are only killable by corruptors. You just have to overproduce corruptor to kill colossi, you can't kill them with good flank or micro and that is only because of Force Field. That's what tickle me. I hate this idea that you have to produce 10-15 corruptors to kill 2-3 colossi and that huge investment (1500-1000 gas to kill 900-600 colossi) will be useless if the protoss is good enough to lure you into thinking he is going colossi and actually switch to templar. Force Field gives too much to protoss endgame while being an absolute necessity early game, and other race are still winning many time because protoss players forget to reinvest into 5-6 sentries when they lost their initial sentries. Delaying warp gate = open more possibilities in terms of tech choice to counter the warp gate rush. So it will actually make a lot of differences. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On March 08 2011 06:39 Blisse wrote: I agree that Sentries are probably the main problem with Protoss at the moment. Not that it's not a great unit. But the idea that if you just have more Sentries, you can essentially brute force through anything until your opponent gets Massive units out. It's a strong and weak unit at the same time, and I think Blizzard's trying to balance the game around them to avoid changing the 'cool' idea. But I can't think of a way for Protoss to deal with anything without the Sentry, which may be the problem itself. Unfortunately, the necessity of the Sentry slows Protoss way down and prevents diverse unit mixtures until two or three bases. They just guzzle gas, and Stalkers don't help. This is a large part of why Protoss have to commit hard to a tech tree and almost always have to take two gas quickly unless they're fast expanding or going 4gate. Switching to Terran from Protoss, it's amazing how gas-light the units are in comparison which makes teching way easier (the cost of this is relative weakness of later game tech-Thors and BCs and Ravens aren't quite as useful as Colossus and HT). As a result, Protoss is at a disadvantage early and an advantage late. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On March 08 2011 06:59 WhiteDog wrote: Force Field gives too much to protoss endgame, and other race are still winning because most of the time protoss players forget to reinvest into 5-6 sentries when they lost their initial sentries. 5-6 sentrys isn't something you can easily afford...on like 1-2 bases, it is an initial investment that hopefully lives as long as possible. | ||
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Cabinet Sanchez
Australia1097 Posts
On March 08 2011 05:57 BoeG wrote: I have to agree on everything but the force field duration nerf, PvP is already too 4-gate focused. I would rather like to see the energy cost for force fields instead being increased to ~65 (3 FF's instead of 4 per sentry), but also buff the starting energy to match the cost of a force field. I think that's a fairly reasonable argument as a toss player. I have to admit I feel sorry for Zerg, their options are so limited in this game. | ||
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bluesoup
Macedonia107 Posts
Blizzard is being very cautious and are taking the issues one-by-one... Several Protoss issues still remain which i would personally like blizzard to *test* (not straight ahead implement) on PTR servers... 1. Fix wrap-in storms - Done - High level feedback suggests that maybe it went too far as opposed to lets say +15 energy, etc... 2. Switch Colossus to +light damage, i.e. same amount of damage as it does now, but only to light units (marines, lings, hyrdas, zealots, etc). Damage to armored (stalkers, other collosus, roaches, marauders, tanks, etc...) reduced - Why: It is freaking range 9 siege tank on wheels + cliff walking. It should provide AoE cover vs high-dps t1 units, but not vs everything... I.e. vs hydra/roach Z, it would have to take few steps forward to hit the hydras for optimum damage as roaches would be more resistant to it... It should force the protoss to mix more immortals, not just the almighty colossus late game... - Buff the immortal a bit somehow (range+1?) to provide another non-AoE unit to deal with armored units... 3. Wrapgate/proxy nerf - the further you wrap-in from your closest nexus, the longer wrap-in lasts, both for gate units and buildings. - Why: This will nerf some notorious P cheeses that are very hard to hold even if you see them coming (in-base gate, 4gate push, etc...) without compromising general ability to produce units and defend... - Should not effect area about the size of average main... i.e. it should slow things down only when building/wrapping in far away land... - If protoss has the best late game units, early game protoss aggression should be toned down... Think how BW style TvP worked... T had stronger late game army, but had to turtle to survive P aggression early on... Roles are reversed now it seams, except P can be as aggressive at T early game.... And before you consider what this will do to other match-ups, just think for a moment about PvP first... | ||
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red_b
United States1267 Posts
On March 08 2011 07:07 bluesoup wrote: Blizzard is being very cautious and are taking the issues one-by-one... S They are not careful when it comes to protecting terran bio play. They killed off anything good that Zerg players came up with. They destroy anything not Colossus for Protoss. But God forbid anything actually stop T bio. The truth is that Terran has been using mostly the same strategy since late in the beta and they still crush with it. At the pro level. No creativity required. Browder said "Terran shouldnt HAVE to build tanks in any matchup". Ok, then how come Protoss HAVE to build colossus? How is that being careful? I love how blizzard looks at GSL and thinks to themselves "Terran needs a buff". | ||
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bluesoup
Macedonia107 Posts
On March 08 2011 07:23 red_b wrote: They are not careful when it comes to protecting terran bio play. They just nerfed the stim timing... Again, taking the issues one-by-one and see how it goes... | ||
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kasumimi
Greece460 Posts
 Can't say I'm excited to see the pros forced into colossus play which quite frankly has become tedious and rivals the T bioball in terms of repetition. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On March 08 2011 07:07 bluesoup wrote: + Show Spoiler + As terran player, i think they did the right 1st step by nerfing wrap-in storms which was a big late game TvP breaker. Anybody who has gotten to point of bio vs HTs knows it was impossible to play it even with mech/ghost support simply because even if you kill/emp all oponent HTs, they will wrap-in some more when you approach their pylon and storm the s*it out of everything... Blizzard is being very cautious and are taking the issues one-by-one... Several Protoss issues still remain which i would personally like blizzard to *test* (not straight ahead implement) on PTR servers... 1. Fix wrap-in storms - Done - High level feedback suggests that maybe it went too far as opposed to lets say +15 energy, etc... 2. Switch Colossus to +light damage, i.e. same amount of damage as it does now, but only to light units (marines, lings, hyrdas, zealots, etc). Damage to armored (stalkers, other collosus, roaches, marauders, tanks, etc...) reduced - Why: It is freaking range 9 siege tank on wheels + cliff walking. It should provide AoE cover vs high-dps t1 units, but not vs everything... I.e. vs hydra/roach Z, it would have to take few steps forward to hit the hydras for optimum damage as roaches would be more resistant to it... It should force the protoss to mix more immortals, not just the almighty colossus late game... - Buff the immortal a bit somehow (range+1?) to provide another non-AoE unit to deal with armored units... 3. Wrapgate/proxy nerf - the further you wrap-in from your closest nexus, the longer wrap-in lasts, both for gate units and buildings. - Why: This will nerf some notorious P cheeses that are very hard to hold even if you see them coming (in-base gate, 4gate push, etc...) without compromising general ability to produce units and defend... - Should not effect area about the size of average main... i.e. it should slow things down only when building/wrapping in far away land... - If protoss has the best late game units, early game protoss aggression should be toned down... Think how BW style TvP worked... T had stronger late game army, but had to turtle to survive P aggression early on... Roles are reversed now it seams, except P can be as aggressive at T early game.... And before you consider what this will do to other match-ups, just think for a moment about PvP first... Sorry, but that really comes off as a "Nerf all these things that I don't like, and no compensation needed." post. These would be good changes, if accompanied by gateway unit buffs, maybe merging the dark shrine back with the templar archive and increasing build time, ans so forth. In particular, nerfing Colossi vs Marauders and Roaches would turn PvT and PvZ into a T1 spamfest, Immortal buff or no Immortal buff. Also, while SC2 PvT has some similarity to the same BW matchup, but with roles reversed, there is no easy analogy here. For one, Terrans had a strong defensive timing with siege mode, which deterred any straight-up Protoss aggression for a good amount of time. Protoss in SC2 don't really have anything like that - in part because the Colossus has well-defined "counters", as opposed to the BW Siege Tank, which was "countered" with good unit positioning, flanking, and a variety of micro techinques. In SC2 the aggressive Terran just builds Vikings instead of Medivacs, and attacks anyway. Besides, there were quite a few Terran aggressive builds in TvP vs a greedy Protoss, like bunker rushes vs Nexus first, and 2 Fact or FD against other decently fast expansions. In SC2, 4gate pretty much fails against a safe build that gets enough units out, too. | ||
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dump
Japan514 Posts
On March 08 2011 06:59 WhiteDog wrote: I understand your point, my problem is that Colossi are only killable by corruptors. You just have to overproduce corruptor to kill colossi, you can't kill them with good flank or micro and that is only because of Force Field. That's what tickle me. I hate this idea that you have to produce 10-15 corruptors to kill 2-3 colossi and that huge investment (1500-1000 gas to kill 900-600 colossi) will be useless if the protoss is good enough to lure you into thinking he is going colossi and actually switch to templar. Force Field gives too much to protoss endgame while being an absolute necessity early game, and other race are still winning many time because protoss players forget to reinvest into 5-6 sentries when they lost their initial sentries. Delaying warp gate = open more possibilities in terms of tech choice to counter the warp gate rush. So it will actually make a lot of differences. We've gone from storm to sentry to colossus and now to corruptors. You're parroting Artosis/IdrA's video, aren't you? I remember IdrA using nearly the exact same words. People win to force field because they find open areas to engage in, or they keep the pressure on so that by the time they get shoved back to their base the sentries are out of energy. You can seldom kill a 200/200 colossus death ball with a 200/200 roach/hydra ball even if protoss doesn't use sentries. You need either the 300 food army or you need to exploit protoss' lack of mobility. If anything should be nerfed, it's colossus. Again, sentries should only be nerfed if some other options are presented. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On March 08 2011 07:56 dump wrote: We've gone from storm to sentry to colossus and now to corruptors. You're parroting Artosis/IdrA's video, aren't you? I remember IdrA using nearly the exact same words. People win to force field because they find open areas to engage in, or they keep the pressure on so that by the time they get shoved back to their base the sentries are out of energy. You can seldom kill a 200/200 colossus death ball with a 200/200 roach/hydra ball even if protoss doesn't use sentries. You need either the 300 food army or you need to exploit protoss' lack of mobility. If anything should be nerfed, it's colossus. Again, sentries should only be nerfed if some other options are presented. I was talking about FF, i NEVER whined or said anything about storm. I'm actually sad they removed kadarin amulette. IdrA is indeed qqing about colossi, I am not, I'm talking about FF being too good to protect colossi. "People win to force field because they find open areas to engage in" but when you have 6 sentries with enough mana, even an open areas IS NOT ENOUGH, because the protoss can spam FF so much. | ||
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