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On March 09 2011 05:10 Aequos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 04:57 TimeSpiral wrote:On March 09 2011 04:32 Stanlot wrote:
Can someone clarify something for me? When they say chargelots now are guaranteed to hit a retreating target at least once, do they literally mean one hit of 8 damage or both hits of one attack resulting in 16 damage?
I'm also unclear as to exactly how this will function. The guaranteed hit is almost certainly both attacks, but here are the scenarios I'm wondering about ... SCENARIO1. Marauder is about to engage and sees a Zealot 2. Charge has a range of 5 (don't know exactly, so let's say five for this example). 3. The Marauder walks into range of the Zealot and triggers 'Charge.' 4. The Marauder stims, shoots a concussive shell, and runs. 5. The Zealot never makes it within melee range. 6. Does the Zealot get a free hit here? OR ...1. Marauder is about to engage and sees a Zealot 2. Charge has a range of 5 (don't know exactly, so let's say five for this example). 3. The Marauder walks into range of the Zealot and triggers 'Charge.' 4. The Zealots charges to melee range and attacks one time. 5. The Marauder stims, shoots a concussive shell, and runs. 6. The Marauder is three tiles away before the Zealot's attack cools down. 7. The Zealot is no longer in range to attack, and charge is still on CD. 8. Does the Zealot get an additional free hit here? Does anyone have a video of this new mechanic or know the answer to either scenario? I'm fairly certain the reason charge does not inflict a guaranteed hit right now is because the marauder leaves melee range before the attack. Now, it will guarantee the Zealot will swing upon touching its target, essentially causing the effective attack CD after a charge to be set to zero.
Seems like more of a bug fix than a buff to be honest. Getting one or two extra swings is only going to matter in the most even situations.
Given zealots' value-per-unit compared to BW, charge really shouldn't be the same price as it was back then. I'd rather see it for 150/150.
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Ok, i hear everyone saying after the change of vortex, and u cant archon toilet, the mothership is completly useless. Really?
I play zerg, if I had a unit like a mothership, lets say you get to spawn kerrigan. She flies and has a swarm of insect like zerg creatures that hide all units under/inside it unless a detector is present. The swarm does damage just as much as the mothership does. She has the ability to insta nydys worm swallow your whole army from accross the map and spit them out under kerrigan. Also kerrigan has the ability to cast a mass ensnare that stacks enemy units in a net like thing, enemy units ensnared can not attack but cannot take damage either until released. i.e pretty much a zerg mothership.
If a zerg mothership existed and people were casting ensnare (vortex) and fungal growthing the stacked units as it finished and then droped/splode banelings to kill a 200/200 army with minimal supply. I would think that would be totally bullshit and would kinda expect that to be taken out. But all the other things? I'd totally get it, all its other abilities make it usefull, esp when ur getting to max. I'd give up 2 ultras for 1 kerrigan mothership in a maxed army. I think everyone is really overreacting with the archon toilet thing, the patch suggests that it was not intended and thus taken out.
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archon toilet was retarded, good thing its gone.
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On March 09 2011 06:01 dump wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 05:10 Aequos wrote:On March 09 2011 04:57 TimeSpiral wrote:On March 09 2011 04:32 Stanlot wrote:
Can someone clarify something for me? When they say chargelots now are guaranteed to hit a retreating target at least once, do they literally mean one hit of 8 damage or both hits of one attack resulting in 16 damage?
I'm also unclear as to exactly how this will function. The guaranteed hit is almost certainly both attacks, but here are the scenarios I'm wondering about ... SCENARIO1. Marauder is about to engage and sees a Zealot 2. Charge has a range of 5 (don't know exactly, so let's say five for this example). 3. The Marauder walks into range of the Zealot and triggers 'Charge.' 4. The Marauder stims, shoots a concussive shell, and runs. 5. The Zealot never makes it within melee range. 6. Does the Zealot get a free hit here? OR ...1. Marauder is about to engage and sees a Zealot 2. Charge has a range of 5 (don't know exactly, so let's say five for this example). 3. The Marauder walks into range of the Zealot and triggers 'Charge.' 4. The Zealots charges to melee range and attacks one time. 5. The Marauder stims, shoots a concussive shell, and runs. 6. The Marauder is three tiles away before the Zealot's attack cools down. 7. The Zealot is no longer in range to attack, and charge is still on CD. 8. Does the Zealot get an additional free hit here? Does anyone have a video of this new mechanic or know the answer to either scenario? I'm fairly certain the reason charge does not inflict a guaranteed hit right now is because the marauder leaves melee range before the attack. Now, it will guarantee the Zealot will swing upon touching its target, essentially causing the effective attack CD after a charge to be set to zero. Seems like more of a bug fix than a buff to be honest. Getting one or two extra swings is only going to matter in the most even situations. Given zealots' value-per-unit compared to BW, charge really shouldn't be the same price as it was back then. I'd rather see it for 150/150.
I'm okay with zealot charge costing what it does. It's a necessary lategame upgrade as zealots are the only functional mineral dump protoss has. Per cost, zealots already have WAY better health and damage then other basic gateway units.
Midgame, blink vs charge becomes a much closer choice. Recently, it seems blink is almost always better at that stage of the game.
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On March 09 2011 11:50 VoiceOfDecember wrote:
Ok, i hear everyone saying after the change of vortex, and u cant archon toilet, the mothership is completly useless. Really?
I play zerg, if I had a unit like a mothership, lets say you get to spawn kerrigan. She flies and has a swarm of insect like zerg creatures that hide all units under/inside it unless a detector is present. The swarm does damage just as much as the mothership does. She has the ability to insta nydys worm swallow your whole army from accross the map and spit them out under kerrigan. Also kerrigan has the ability to cast a mass ensnare that stacks enemy units in a net like thing, enemy units ensnared can not attack but cannot take damage either until released. i.e pretty much a zerg mothership.
If a zerg mothership existed and people were casting ensnare (vortex) and fungal growthing the stacked units as it finished and then droped/splode banelings to kill a 200/200 army with minimal supply. I would think that would be totally bullshit and would kinda expect that to be taken out. But all the other things? I'd totally get it, all its other abilities make it usefull, esp when ur getting to max. I'd give up 2 ultras for 1 kerrigan mothership in a maxed army. I think everyone is really overreacting with the archon toilet thing, the patch suggests that it was not intended and thus taken out.
It's still worth getting late, late game, but it's still a pointless unit really. Adding more effective units after a certain point has diminishing returns, so you might as well just throw a mothership in, but it's not really like it has a direct purpose, it's just kind of cool and is a mild buff. If it's vortex ability was more like stasis, then it would be very useful, but because you can just run your whole army in it, doesn't last very long and such, it's a lame ability. Also mass recall is lame when the unit is too slow to make it effective. It's just a poorly designed unit, but it has this awesome and cool function (the toilet) that made it interesting to get and exploit, but with that gone it's back to just being a poorly designed unit with little functionality.
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On March 09 2011 11:50 VoiceOfDecember wrote:
Ok, i hear everyone saying after the change of vortex, and u cant archon toilet, the mothership is completly useless. Really?
I play zerg, if I had a unit like a mothership, lets say you get to spawn kerrigan. She flies and has a swarm of insect like zerg creatures that hide all units under/inside it unless a detector is present. The swarm does damage just as much as the mothership does. She has the ability to insta nydys worm swallow your whole army from accross the map and spit them out under kerrigan. Also kerrigan has the ability to cast a mass ensnare that stacks enemy units in a net like thing, enemy units ensnared can not attack but cannot take damage either until released. i.e pretty much a zerg mothership.
If a zerg mothership existed and people were casting ensnare (vortex) and fungal growthing the stacked units as it finished and then droped/splode banelings to kill a 200/200 army with minimal supply. I would think that would be totally bullshit and would kinda expect that to be taken out. But all the other things? I'd totally get it, all its other abilities make it usefull, esp when ur getting to max. I'd give up 2 ultras for 1 kerrigan mothership in a maxed army. I think everyone is really overreacting with the archon toilet thing, the patch suggests that it was not intended and thus taken out.
It's not that it's useless; it's that it's not as fun.
You know, like when you're watching Kiwikaki or Huk and you're thinking "IS HE GONNA ARCHON TOILET? OH SHIT HE'S GONNA ARCHON TOILET!"
Why can't we have that?
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I think toilets should still be kept in the game but much harder to do and a little less effective.
In other words, if all units are going to be invincible (they can't hurt each other right?) for 1.5 seconds, they should revert the previous change regarding force fields; forcefields should now be able to be placed in the area of a Vortex; this will force the toileting player to have even more gas heavy units; along with the highest Stargate tech, a Mothership, the highest Templar tech, Archons, and the expensive Sentries...
Question: Currently, is it possible to, immediately after a Vortex ends, place forcefields around the vortex to trap units in a circle of FFs?
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If they give this 1.5 second vulnerablility, then you shouldn't be able to run units in the vortex since that just makes the spell useless. Just imo..
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If it's really that bad -- and I've yet to see any reason to suppose that it is -- then they should at least settle for just halving the damage taken or something, so that more archons are required, hence making it rare and that much more exciting when it happens.
They need to stop treating the game like a UN disarmament intervention. Every patch they just keep making weapons weaker and armor stronger.
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i have a question...are the units coming out of the vortex able to move and attack during this immortality segment. or is this change simply to allow for the units to spread out from being clumped.
so if a) (units being able to attack) is true then WHO THE HELL IS GOING TO VORTEX EVER!!!
or if b) (units just unclump a bit and can't do anythign for 1.5 seconds) then the archon and collosus toilets still exist but not in a nuke like fashion.
even though having the CREATIVITY to throw your own units into a blackhole in hopes of get some kind of advantage in combat apparently has been frowned upon by the blizzard balance team. hell the archon toilet has really been the only thing that made the 400/400 investment into a mothership worth it. though cloak and recall have their advantage. somehow i get the feeling blizz doesn't understand the meaning behind cost effective when it comes to protoss sometimes.
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but high templar didnt have insta storm( or warp in for that matter) in broodwar, and no one complained then
whats changed
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On March 09 2011 15:45 arb wrote:
but high templar didnt have insta storm( or warp in for that matter) in broodwar, and no one complained then
whats changed
What is changed is that protoss got used to it already. Now if they remove it it will make them to use another kind of ht play if they want to use them.
I personally like the change (well obviously since storm wipes all of my lings/hydras), either removing the upgrade or they should add queue time for HT in the gateway or atleast you couldn't make HT's if you have warp upgrade in there.
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On March 09 2011 15:45 arb wrote:
but high templar didnt have insta storm( or warp in for that matter) in broodwar, and no one complained then
whats changed
gateway units were stronger. zeal/goon in sc1 was 100x more effective mid/lategame than zealot/stalker/sentry in sc2.
Storm was also stronger; area was bigger and there weren't roaches/marauders.
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On March 08 2011 14:34 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2011 08:27 Striding Strider wrote:On March 08 2011 08:24 DoubleReed wrote:On March 08 2011 06:42 Kindred wrote:
It seems to me that people are complaining about the sentry being OP because they can't A-move into a P's army.... What kind of amazing micro magically gets by a forcefield? 1. Select MM 2. Load Medievacs 3. Move Medievacs past forcefields 4. Unload Do I win anything? Close but not quite. Load medivacs with trapped units retreat a little Repeat as necessary Attacking a big protoss deathball with sentries head on is just as stupid as attacking a terran with a cluster of sieged.tanks head on. Just like with terran... you force something to happen. Force the ff and run, he doesn't have unlimited energy... and when they run out they are pretty weak units. What I have an issue with is that terran now have no real threat from high templar so they can produce a lot more Vikings with less worry of a tech switch that would make their vikings bad. What can protoss to against viking marine marauder?
Exactly! You're are so damn right on the spot: Attacking a protoss deathball with sentries head on is just as stupid as attacking terran with a cluster of sieged tanks head on.
Except the siege tanks need to siege, and because of that they have a sucky mobility and need a year to actually come to your main and kill it if the zerg threaten to attack every now and then during the trip between the two bases.
At some point, a protoss deathball needs to be taken head on... or you will have to base trade which is stupid as zerg. Like you can't make a thousand FF with 6 sentries full of mana.
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On March 09 2011 15:45 arb wrote:
but high templar didnt have insta storm( or warp in for that matter) in broodwar, and no one complained then
whats changed
1. A medivac costs the same as BW dropships (100/100), and it comes with a flying medic with 1.5x more efficient/faster healing (3 as opposed to 2) and more than double the range (5 as opposed to 2), requiring no micro to take proper care of your army. Not only that, with no need for medics, you also have 12 to 25% more space to put stuff in your medivac.
2. The maps have huge wide openings at the back that make getting in and out dead easy. You can no longer place static defenses strategically to limit the movement of drops; you need it everywhere.
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On March 09 2011 15:45 arb wrote:
but high templar didnt have insta storm( or warp in for that matter) in broodwar, and no one complained then
whats changed They still had an energy upgrade. Not as strong, but they didn't have to wait 30 seconds for storm.
That's what most people are asking for now: leave the upgrade, just make it weaker
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You guys do understand this isnt BW - right?
Back then a HT had to walk cross map to storm.
Back then Siegetanks did 70 dmg cost 100 gas and 2 supply ... want that back? Ill give you the medivac (trade for medic) AND the marauder for such tanks - but your QQing surely wont stop ...
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On March 09 2011 12:52 dump wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 11:50 VoiceOfDecember wrote:
Ok, i hear everyone saying after the change of vortex, and u cant archon toilet, the mothership is completly useless. Really?
I play zerg, if I had a unit like a mothership, lets say you get to spawn kerrigan. She flies and has a swarm of insect like zerg creatures that hide all units under/inside it unless a detector is present. The swarm does damage just as much as the mothership does. She has the ability to insta nydys worm swallow your whole army from accross the map and spit them out under kerrigan. Also kerrigan has the ability to cast a mass ensnare that stacks enemy units in a net like thing, enemy units ensnared can not attack but cannot take damage either until released. i.e pretty much a zerg mothership.
If a zerg mothership existed and people were casting ensnare (vortex) and fungal growthing the stacked units as it finished and then droped/splode banelings to kill a 200/200 army with minimal supply. I would think that would be totally bullshit and would kinda expect that to be taken out. But all the other things? I'd totally get it, all its other abilities make it usefull, esp when ur getting to max. I'd give up 2 ultras for 1 kerrigan mothership in a maxed army. I think everyone is really overreacting with the archon toilet thing, the patch suggests that it was not intended and thus taken out. It's not that it's useless; it's that it's not as fun. You know, like when you're watching Kiwikaki or Huk and you're thinking "IS HE GONNA ARCHON TOILET? OH SHIT HE'S GONNA ARCHON TOILET!" Why can't we have that?
Because even as a toss player I feel its imbalanced. Toss already has the strongest late game units, adding the archon toilet is bascially free win if the games gets to that point and the maps prevent counter attacking etc
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On March 09 2011 17:43 Maskedsatyr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2011 12:52 dump wrote:On March 09 2011 11:50 VoiceOfDecember wrote:
Ok, i hear everyone saying after the change of vortex, and u cant archon toilet, the mothership is completly useless. Really?
I play zerg, if I had a unit like a mothership, lets say you get to spawn kerrigan. She flies and has a swarm of insect like zerg creatures that hide all units under/inside it unless a detector is present. The swarm does damage just as much as the mothership does. She has the ability to insta nydys worm swallow your whole army from accross the map and spit them out under kerrigan. Also kerrigan has the ability to cast a mass ensnare that stacks enemy units in a net like thing, enemy units ensnared can not attack but cannot take damage either until released. i.e pretty much a zerg mothership.
If a zerg mothership existed and people were casting ensnare (vortex) and fungal growthing the stacked units as it finished and then droped/splode banelings to kill a 200/200 army with minimal supply. I would think that would be totally bullshit and would kinda expect that to be taken out. But all the other things? I'd totally get it, all its other abilities make it usefull, esp when ur getting to max. I'd give up 2 ultras for 1 kerrigan mothership in a maxed army. I think everyone is really overreacting with the archon toilet thing, the patch suggests that it was not intended and thus taken out. It's not that it's useless; it's that it's not as fun. You know, like when you're watching Kiwikaki or Huk and you're thinking "IS HE GONNA ARCHON TOILET? OH SHIT HE'S GONNA ARCHON TOILET!" Why can't we have that? Because even as a toss player I feel its imbalanced. Toss already has the strongest late game units, adding the archon toilet is bascially free win if the games gets to that point and the maps prevent counter attacking etc
I'll retract my point if you can show me that this happens in more than 1% of toss games -- or even 1% of toss games that make it to late game.
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Can't you just put a couple of forcefields besides the vortex to make the archon toilet work even in 1.3?
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EPT
