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On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. Show nested quote +In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door).
So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion.
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On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection.
That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar.
On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion.
Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ?
And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple.
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On March 07 2011 22:02 mads wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:49 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 21:43 mads wrote:On March 07 2011 21:22 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 21:15 Severedevil wrote:I love the last one in which chargelots can kill a medivac. Uh... right. The situations don't work unless you catch the Terran unloading.
That said, Protoss warp-in is a solid way to defeat drops if Protoss has favorable ground upgrades. Which is part of the reason I'm advocating for upgrade-heavy Protoss play.
Also, Feedback on the medivac is great against drops. The medivac will probably survive, but without heals, and may die instead of escaping... I just tried all those compositions in the unit tester since I don't currently have anyone to help me test it out in a real game setting. I tested it out with the marines just standing there and the marines stim kiting. In a real game scenario it'd be easier for protoss to hold, since you don't have an endless field to kite them with, because you generally drop the backside of the mineral fields, and most protoss would warp in more than 4 zealots/pull probes/do this/that to begin with, since they wouldn't feel safe, even though its strong enough to hold it. I think my preferred method would be 3x zealots and 2x stalkers. lol pull probes to defend medivac/stim rine drop. Like I said you're clueless. Let me help you a bit with this one: probes die faster than they can get in range of a ball of stimmed marines, that's why you never see pros do this after early game. you dont need an endless field to kite, circles. circles dude. circles. with good micro and medi to heal stim, 8 marines kills a ridiculous amount of chargelots and sentries. (maybe this has changed with the change to charge) and the zealot/stalker mix will be lucky to kill 2 marines. Basically, to defend these drops with gateway units you need about double the food, and even still, you aren't going to crush the drop, you're probably going to lose about half that food and won't come out ahead no matter what you do. Don't forget the fact that you need to warp in AWAY from the drop, and so the drop will pretty much get guaranteed damage unless you see it coming from pretty far. This change just makes late game harass super strong for terran, maybe it needed to be done. I personally think terrans aren't weak late game and just needed to learn to play, instead of relying on super strong early game to win. But it's tough to say. The win percentages certainly don't suggest that terran is weak in PvT. Ultimately though, I think balance is headed in the wrong direction, they need to be tweaking things, not removing them. HT is now wasted tech, like the reaper. I feel like Protoss has zero options but colossus and if(when?) Zergs and Terrans learn to deal with colossus builds effectively protoss's competitiveness will be completely gone. Sorry dude, you're clueless. Circles works even worse than running back the entire way, because the stalkers are taking pot shots at your marines constantly, while the marines are not outputting their full DPS. Also, the point is to pull probes when the marines are busy fighting the zealots, not single file them. And HTs being wasted tech? Because you can't spawn one and instantly storm? What the hell.. How spoiled can you get? Also, the best way to kill off a drop is in fact to spot it coming from pretty far. Again, feel free to try it yourself in combinations of 4 chargelots + 1 stalker, 3 chargelots + 2 stalkers, 4 chargelots + 1 sentry with guardian shield vs 7 marines and one medivac. Exact same cost/food armies, the chargelot sentry combination comes out ahead by miles. Circle stim kiting constantly done. Proper scoot and shoot micro (even in circles) has a negligible difference in DPS, learn to play. Yes, pull probes when the marines are busy fighting the zealots, and the probes then just get in the way of the zealots ability to do damage. You must be confused or something, these things are not hard to grasp. I know you want to believe that protoss and HT are so imbalanced. I thought an instant 100 damage and the ability to completely nullify storm and forcefield was pretty spoiled, but no one ever used it http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4807584/ watch this. THIS is one example of how to play terran late game properly. Guess it's just too hard to do this, it's easier to create forum topics about how imbalanced protoss late game is. How unfair it is that your shift queue drop got rocked by warp in storm. By a protoss that worked twice as hard as you to make it into the mid game on even footing.
Proper scoot and shoot micro is being done at all times. Get a clue already. And you don't pull the probes to block your zealots. Are you retarded? You pull them and attack the marines from behind or absorb damage. I like how you're mentioning proper micro on the Terrans part, but when the Protoss does something it ends up blocking his own units... Get the hell out of here.
Also, I haven't said anything about Protoss being imbalanced in the end state. Terran does fine against Protoss all in all. I've mentioned amulet being to strong in its current state, yes. But nothing else when it comes to imbalances. Pay attention.
What I have argued against is people moaning about drops being impossible to hold without templars (protip, get a couple of gateway units), and Protoss t1 being weak.
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On March 07 2011 22:05 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 21:57 Whitewing wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:03 Whitewing wrote:
Here's an obvious solution:
Nerf colossus and high templar slightly. Make kaydarin amulet give +20 energy or something, so you can't storm instantly upon warp in. Reduce colossus damage a little bit.
Buff gateway units. Buff stalker damage (it's absolute garbage right now, and they cost sooooooooooo much), and make them actually benefit from upgrades (+1 damage from a +1 upgrade? lol?) Increase the toughness of zealots a little bit, or buff their base speed slightly or something. Increase sentry durability a little.
And here's the real kicker: Increase warp gate research cost and build time.
*Bam* No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies. You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). You can't nerf forcefields, they are completely necessary for protoss to survive early game. I also don't like warp gates being on the twilight council, it forces less tech diversity. You should have a legitimate choice between twilight council, robo, and stargate. Also, you'd have to delay warp gates even more just to get an observer to defend against cloaked banshees or something like that, or you'd have to skip detection. That's exactly the opposite, it will force diversity since you will have gateway/robo or warp gate gate way twilight into templar. Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:04 ELESSAR wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 WhiteDog wrote:On March 07 2011 21:32 AusBox wrote:On March 07 2011 21:25 WhiteDog wrote:
No, you need to put warpgate in twilight council or making it available with twilight council. That's the only thing that will balance protoss' tech tree and that will diversify protoss' strategies.
You also need to nerf force field making it impossible to had more than 5 force field on the ground. Sentry don't need more durability but a slightly better dps to make them more efficient (upgrading their range by 1 or their base dmg against light units ?). Nerfing forcefields make Protoss a lot more susceptible to early pushes. For example, early game Protoss will often have 1 Zealot, Stalker and Sentry. This sentry is critical for the Protoss to survive. No, nerfing forcefield the way i said will NOT make protoss susceptible to early pushes: 5 forcefields are ENOUGH to defend early/mid game if you are in a defensive position since you will engage in a restricted area that can be shut down by 5 force field. Plus, all these nerf to warpgate/forcefield/colossi should and need to be balanced with an up to the zealot HP and sentries dmg. It will make protoss less potent in attack/cutting army in half. Having 6-7 sentries and putting down 10 forcefield to get complete control over the battle field is not balanced and should not even exist. In fact the 3 stalker defense against 4 gate wouldn't work, nor would 3 gate robo -- which will just force 4 gate even more.
Reducing the maximum number of force fields makes it useless other than for holding the ramp. That's the most dumb and clueless comment I've seen since I was talking about a force field nerf that goes with a delay of warp gate in the tech tree (making it possible with twilight council only and thus giving the time to go Immortal or even DT BEFORE warpgate finish and come to your door). So you are suggesting that Protoss should not be able to attack early game and only defend? because yes you can defend with 5 FF MOST of the time but you can not attack. On metalopolis 5 FF will not be enough to take expansion. Seriously, if you up zealot's HP and sentries dmg, of course you can defend with only 5 force field. Are you implying that putting down 10 or so force field and having complete control over the battle field is balanced ? And every map are different with slightly different natural expand. It's normal that you have some maps where expands will be harder to defend than on other maps. Take zerg on blackwater for exemple.
They WILL NEVER change every Protoss unit at the same time, NEVER! So stop saying that if they do things will be balanced. Not to mention that before charge zealots are only good for tanking damage unless you mange to trap units with FF. Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M
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On March 07 2011 22:14 ELESSAR wrote:Early game FF are not only fine they are needed and late game you can crush them with massive unit. Oh wait I forgot Terran builds only M&M
You're expecting someone to build a 400/300/6 unit that does roughly 40DPS and have it walking around to kill force fields rather than fighting in battle? Not to mention that unit gets ripped apart by zealots...
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On March 07 2011 22:05 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:02 mads wrote:On March 07 2011 21:49 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 21:43 mads wrote:On March 07 2011 21:22 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 21:15 Severedevil wrote:I love the last one in which chargelots can kill a medivac. Uh... right. The situations don't work unless you catch the Terran unloading.
That said, Protoss warp-in is a solid way to defeat drops if Protoss has favorable ground upgrades. Which is part of the reason I'm advocating for upgrade-heavy Protoss play.
Also, Feedback on the medivac is great against drops. The medivac will probably survive, but without heals, and may die instead of escaping... I just tried all those compositions in the unit tester since I don't currently have anyone to help me test it out in a real game setting. I tested it out with the marines just standing there and the marines stim kiting. In a real game scenario it'd be easier for protoss to hold, since you don't have an endless field to kite them with, because you generally drop the backside of the mineral fields, and most protoss would warp in more than 4 zealots/pull probes/do this/that to begin with, since they wouldn't feel safe, even though its strong enough to hold it. I think my preferred method would be 3x zealots and 2x stalkers. lol pull probes to defend medivac/stim rine drop. Like I said you're clueless. Let me help you a bit with this one: probes die faster than they can get in range of a ball of stimmed marines, that's why you never see pros do this after early game. you dont need an endless field to kite, circles. circles dude. circles. with good micro and medi to heal stim, 8 marines kills a ridiculous amount of chargelots and sentries. (maybe this has changed with the change to charge) and the zealot/stalker mix will be lucky to kill 2 marines. Basically, to defend these drops with gateway units you need about double the food, and even still, you aren't going to crush the drop, you're probably going to lose about half that food and won't come out ahead no matter what you do. Don't forget the fact that you need to warp in AWAY from the drop, and so the drop will pretty much get guaranteed damage unless you see it coming from pretty far. This change just makes late game harass super strong for terran, maybe it needed to be done. I personally think terrans aren't weak late game and just needed to learn to play, instead of relying on super strong early game to win. But it's tough to say. The win percentages certainly don't suggest that terran is weak in PvT. Ultimately though, I think balance is headed in the wrong direction, they need to be tweaking things, not removing them. HT is now wasted tech, like the reaper. I feel like Protoss has zero options but colossus and if(when?) Zergs and Terrans learn to deal with colossus builds effectively protoss's competitiveness will be completely gone. Sorry dude, you're clueless. Circles works even worse than running back the entire way, because the stalkers are taking pot shots at your marines constantly, while the marines are not outputting their full DPS. Also, the point is to pull probes when the marines are busy fighting the zealots, not single file them. And HTs being wasted tech? Because you can't spawn one and instantly storm? What the hell.. How spoiled can you get? Also, the best way to kill off a drop is in fact to spot it coming from pretty far. Again, feel free to try it yourself in combinations of 4 chargelots + 1 stalker, 3 chargelots + 2 stalkers, 4 chargelots + 1 sentry with guardian shield vs 7 marines and one medivac. Exact same cost/food armies, the chargelot sentry combination comes out ahead by miles. Circle stim kiting constantly done. Proper scoot and shoot micro (even in circles) has a negligible difference in DPS, learn to play. Yes, pull probes when the marines are busy fighting the zealots, and the probes then just get in the way of the zealots ability to do damage. You must be confused or something, these things are not hard to grasp. I know you want to believe that protoss and HT are so imbalanced. I thought an instant 100 damage and the ability to completely nullify storm and forcefield was pretty spoiled, but no one ever used it http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4807584/ watch this. THIS is one example of how to play terran late game properly. Guess it's just too hard to do this, it's easier to create forum topics about how imbalanced protoss late game is. How unfair it is that your shift queue drop got rocked by warp in storm. By a protoss that worked twice as hard as you to make it into the mid game on even footing. Proper scoot and shoot micro is being done at all times. Get a clue already. And you don't pull the probes to block your zealots. Are you retarded? You pull them and attack the marines from behind or absorb damage. I like how you're mentioning proper micro on the Terrans part, but when the Protoss does something it ends up blocking his own units... Get the hell out of here. Also, I haven't said anything about Protoss being imbalanced in the end state. Terran does fine against Protoss all in all. I've mentioned amulet being to strong in its current state, yes. But nothing else when it comes to imbalances. Pay attention. What I have argued against is people moaning about drops being impossible to hold without templars (protip, get a couple of gateway units), and Protoss t1 being weak.
Lol, dude, YES trying to flank with probes will work behind a mineral line. But, I dont know where you're at, but in masters... Terrans don't shift queue drop into mineral lines or right behind. If the terran is dropping there he just stims, wipes out half your probes, loads up and leaves. This is rare though, min line drops are easy to react to. I assumed that you knew that. I assumed we were talking about drops that come at the edge of your base and aim to take out a robo bay, or robo fac, or a couple pylons. In a wide open space, pulling probes to flank just doesnt work. I assumed you were better at this game then you apparently you are. I WILL pay better attention.
I'll state it again: perfect scoot and shoot micro has the exact same DPS as a standing marine. PROPER scoot and shoot micro has a negligible difference in DPS. "Get the hell out of here"
Did you watch that game? You really should.
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On March 07 2011 22:18 mads wrote:Lol, dude, YES trying to flank with probes will work behind a mineral line. But, I dont know where you're at, but in masters... Terrans don't shift queue drop into mineral lines or right behind. If the terran is dropping there he just stims, wipes out half your probes, loads up and leaves. This is rare though, min line drops are easy to react to. I assumed that you knew that, my mistake. I assumed we were talking about drops that come at the edge of your base and aim to take out a robo bay, or robo fac, or a couple pylons. In a wide open space, pulling probes to flank just doesnt work.
I'll state it again: perfect scoot and shoot micro has the exact same DPS as a standing marine. PROPER scoot and shoot micro has a negligible difference in DPS. "Get the hell out of here"
Did you watch that game? You really should.
No, I'm pretty sure the general consensus about drops were probe lines, and not key structures, and I'm not arguing that you can snipe a key building if you can spot it and get away. What I'm arguing is that gateway units can hold marine medivac drops cost efficiently.
And I'll state again, perfect scoot and shoot or not, you will die to a good set of gateway units.
And I've seen the link you showed already. It's a good video. Thanks for reminding me of it I guess?
Also, again. Anyone on the european server wanna get together in the unit tester and try out some marine medivac vs gateway unit action?
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On March 07 2011 22:22 Dalavita wrote:
What I'm arguing is that gateway units can hold marine medivac drops cost efficiently.
The general consensus is that they can't, and you've done nothing to show otherwise. I didnt even realize it was something to argue about, it's like an accepted truth for everyone but you.
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On March 07 2011 22:25 mads wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:22 Dalavita wrote:
What I'm arguing is that gateway units can hold marine medivac drops cost efficiently. The general consensus is that they can't, and you've done nothing to show otherwise. I didnt even realize it was something to argue about, it's like an accepted truth for everyone but you.
General consensus is generally wrong.
I'll do some more testing later today when my friends get on I guess, and see if I can upload some replays.
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On March 07 2011 22:05 Dalavita wrote:
Proper scoot and shoot micro is being done at all times. Get a clue already. And you don't pull the probes to block your zealots. Are you retarded? You pull them and attack the marines from behind or absorb damage.
You gotta be trolling, this can't be for real...pulling probes to "absord damage", thanks a lot, while reading that I was drinking coffee, now I have coffee in my nose from having to laugh.
Probes to "absorb damage" against stimmed marine drops, this is really something you produced there. What's next, pulling probes against blue flame hellions, to "absorb damage"?
On March 07 2011 22:25 mads wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:22 Dalavita wrote:
What I'm arguing is that gateway units can hold marine medivac drops cost efficiently. The general consensus is that they can't, and you've done nothing to show otherwise. I didnt even realize it was something to argue about, it's like an accepted truth for everyone but you.
I second that. If you have to use probes to fight against marines, the drop was already a success. Then it's only a question of how much damage it will do, but it was worth the investment already.
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On March 07 2011 22:28 sleepingdog wrote:
Probes to "absorb damage" against stimmed marine drops, this is really something you produced there. What's next, pulling probes against blue flame hellions, to "absorb damage"?.
Interesting example, I've seen workers used to block and kill off hellions plenty of times, but hellions and marines are different beasts, and the purpose of the probes is to either absorb shots so the gateway units can get a couple of more hits in without dying, or to block them to prevent kiting.
Or put in other words, 8 marines aren't going to kill 8 workers in one round of fire while being chased down by 4 zealots and one stalker.
On March 07 2011 22:25 mads wrote:I second that. If you have to use probes to fight against marines, the drop was already a success. Then it's only a question of how much damage it will do, but it was worth the investment already.
Yes, I don't disagree. But if the choice is between pulling probes and dying, what do you do? Pulling probes is a desperate measure when you know you can't hold his attack, as always. (Or if you can get a sick surround)
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Why not put forcefields on a cooldown timer, and put hallucinate as a cyber-core cooldown ability, able to activate anywhere you have sight?
Instant sentry "nerf" while simultaneously allowing them to still properly defend ramps and such on warp-in.......So you can still drop FF and hold ramps, but you can't build up 4 FF per sentry and drop 20 FF with 5 sentries. Noone feedbacks sentries anyways, and if you have the 10 sentries necessary for ridiculous amounts of FF, then you're so far behind in gas that you're screwed. I think this would instantly nerf toss mid-late game while simultaneously not affecting their early game.
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On March 07 2011 22:33 Sm3agol wrote:
Why not put forcefields on a cooldown timer, and put hallucinate as a cyber-core cooldown ability, able to activate anywhere you have sight?
Instant sentry "nerf" while simultaneously allowing them to still properly defend ramps and such on warp-in.......So you can still drop FF and hold ramps, but you can't build up 4 FF per sentry and drop 20 FF with 5 sentries. Noone feedbacks sentries anyways, and if you have the 10 sentries necessary for ridiculous amounts of FF, then you're so far behind in gas that you're screwed. I think this would instantly nerf toss mid-late game while simultaneously not affecting their early game.
and how are you supposed to control the masses of Zergunits attacking you?
Screw Protoss their design is balanced around that.
Gateway Units Suck unless you go all-in with them.
Any Nerf of either Forcefield or T3 Units(Colossus/HT) have to come with a good buff of Gateway units. cause those are the things that keep up Protoss in the game and can win the game if the opponent isn't adapting properly.
That's the reason why peope cry here, buhuuu my M&M dies so fast against Storm.
But i don't see any Terran here stating that M&M has so much insane dps cause because of way easier concaves because their units are so small, so everything melts before them.
watch dreamhack finals godsake
Mana had both Colossus and Warp-In Storms and still barely survived against (Bio/mech/Ghost) Naama in most of the games,
funny since HT should be the kill everything with 3 storms unit after instant storms are ready isn't it?
M&M is too strong & easy to play, thats the reason why Mech is always dismissed.
If Protoss could play Gateways like M&M they would period.
But they can't so P then goes their "mech" aka Robo/HT Tech.
Why shouldn't the opponents do the same? and have a better army against storms, instead of staying on the same core unit composition all match long.
P makes himself vulnerable to many Timing attacks due to Teching, now the tech advantage shall be removed because Terrans/Zerg don't want to tech to their T3 Units cause they by design have better T1-T2 Units?
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On March 07 2011 22:38 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:33 Sm3agol wrote:
Why not put forcefields on a cooldown timer, and put hallucinate as a cyber-core cooldown ability, able to activate anywhere you have sight?
Instant sentry "nerf" while simultaneously allowing them to still properly defend ramps and such on warp-in.......So you can still drop FF and hold ramps, but you can't build up 4 FF per sentry and drop 20 FF with 5 sentries. Noone feedbacks sentries anyways, and if you have the 10 sentries necessary for ridiculous amounts of FF, then you're so far behind in gas that you're screwed. I think this would instantly nerf toss mid-late game while simultaneously not affecting their early game.
and how are you supposed to control the masses of Zergunits attacking you?Screw Protoss their design is balanced around that. Gateway Units Suck unless you go all-in with them. Any Nerf of either Forcefield or T3 Units(Colossus/HT) have to come with a good buff of Gateway units. cause those are the things that keep up Protoss in the game and can win the game if the opponent isn't adapting properly. watch dreamhack finals godsake Mana had both Colossus and Warp-In Storms and still barely survived against Naama in most of the games, funny since HT should be the kill everything with 3 storms unit after instant storms are ready isn't it?
How? Give sentries a cooldown with a length equivalent to however long it takes to build up 50 energy. That way sentries are still just as useful early game, as they can still throw down FF on spawning and ~4 or 5 can permanently lock down a ramp, but those 4 or 5 can't build up 200 energy and completely dominate a battlefield 5 minutes later. I'd even go as far as shortening the cooldown timer by quite a bit to encourage less sentry use......so 3 sentries can permanently shut down a ramp. That way it will keep mid-game FF usage to a minimum. Oh, and make FF not work on creep...or maybe half duration on creep.
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On March 07 2011 22:49 Sm3agol wrote:
How? Give sentries a cooldown with a length equivalent to however long it takes to build up 50 energy. That way sentries are still just as useful early game, as they can still throw down FF on spawning and ~4 or 5 can permanently lock down a ramp, but those 4 or 5 can't build up 200 energy and completely dominate a battlefield 5 minutes later. I'd even go as far as shortening the cooldown timer by quite a bit to encourage less sentry use......so 3 sentries can permanently shut down a ramp. That way it will keep mid-game FF usage to a minimum. Oh, and make FF not work on creep...or maybe half duration on creep.
Or may be remove Forcefields completely of the game like the Amulet?
may be the opponent should fake attacks and drain forcefield energy? instead of whining.
Instead of doing nothing and staying passive letting the enemy accumulate energy get active!
Going by you a Sentry should have a cool down of 88s for 1 Forcefield ?
(that is the time it takes for 1 Sentry to generate 50 energy)
so 6 Sentrys give you 6 forcefields which saves you for 15s second and what after that?
how does P survive the cooldown period and the constant Stream of cheap units Z could throw at you?
Sentrys have crap dps for cost since you don't seem to know that.
Again any nerf to both FF and T3 Units have to come with massive buffs for gateway units.
It is a core design trait of protoss that they Gateway Units have bad dps (may it be flawed or not)
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On March 07 2011 22:54 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:49 Sm3agol wrote:
How? Give sentries a cooldown with a length equivalent to however long it takes to build up 50 energy. That way sentries are still just as useful early game, as they can still throw down FF on spawning and ~4 or 5 can permanently lock down a ramp, but those 4 or 5 can't build up 200 energy and completely dominate a battlefield 5 minutes later. I'd even go as far as shortening the cooldown timer by quite a bit to encourage less sentry use......so 3 sentries can permanently shut down a ramp. That way it will keep mid-game FF usage to a minimum. Oh, and make FF not work on creep...or maybe half duration on creep. Or may be remove Forcefields completely of the game like the Amulet? may be the opponent should fake attacks and drain forcefield energy? instead of whining. Instead of doing nothing and staying passive letting the enemy accumulate energy get active! Going by you a Sentry should have a cool down of 88s for 1 Forcefield ? (that is the time it takes for 1 Sentry to generate 50 energy) so 6 Sentrys give you 6 forcefields which saves you for 15s second and what after that? how does P survive the cooldown period and the constant Stream of units Z could throw at you?
Pretty sure I've never even come close to suggesting this. I main Toss btw.
What? Faking attacks does not work unless your opponent is bad. Relying on this to win games is completely wrong. And staying active and harassing your opponent sounds good, but the first time you get 3/4 of your army immobilized by 15 FF and destroyed, you'll realize why people don't do this very much.
Sure......if it takes 88s, then 88s it is.
So 6 sentries gives you 6 x 15 = 90 seconds of coverage. Enough to permanently FF a ramp vs a 1000 supply zerg army. Maybe you don't understand how cooldown timers work? How does P survive.....I dunno, maybe by permanently FF his ramp? The same way they do it now?
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On March 07 2011 22:49 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 22:38 freetgy wrote:On March 07 2011 22:33 Sm3agol wrote:
Why not put forcefields on a cooldown timer, and put hallucinate as a cyber-core cooldown ability, able to activate anywhere you have sight?
Instant sentry "nerf" while simultaneously allowing them to still properly defend ramps and such on warp-in.......So you can still drop FF and hold ramps, but you can't build up 4 FF per sentry and drop 20 FF with 5 sentries. Noone feedbacks sentries anyways, and if you have the 10 sentries necessary for ridiculous amounts of FF, then you're so far behind in gas that you're screwed. I think this would instantly nerf toss mid-late game while simultaneously not affecting their early game.
and how are you supposed to control the masses of Zergunits attacking you?Screw Protoss their design is balanced around that. Gateway Units Suck unless you go all-in with them. Any Nerf of either Forcefield or T3 Units(Colossus/HT) have to come with a good buff of Gateway units. cause those are the things that keep up Protoss in the game and can win the game if the opponent isn't adapting properly. watch dreamhack finals godsake Mana had both Colossus and Warp-In Storms and still barely survived against Naama in most of the games, funny since HT should be the kill everything with 3 storms unit after instant storms are ready isn't it? How? Give sentries a cooldown with a length equivalent to however long it takes to build up 50 energy. That way sentries are still just as useful early game, as they can still throw down FF on spawning and ~4 or 5 can permanently lock down a ramp, but those 4 or 5 can't build up 200 energy and completely dominate a battlefield 5 minutes later. I'd even go as far as shortening the cooldown timer by quite a bit to encourage less sentry use......so 3 sentries can permanently shut down a ramp. That way it will keep mid-game FF usage to a minimum. Oh, and make FF not work on creep...or maybe half duration on creep.
FF are not only for ramps, gateway units are too weak to fight straight up Zerg or Terran so FF is the only way to survive (staying on 1 base while the enemy is on 3 is not surviving) before Colossus. With FF battles are balanced so I really don't understand why you want them to be nerfed. Protoss definitely isn't too strong early/mid game and late game there are ways to deal with FF
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Dalavita: tips från coachen; lägg ner. You are delirious
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On March 07 2011 23:10 dark fury wrote:
Dalavita: tips från coachen; lägg ner. You are delirious
Puss på dig också.
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EPT
