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On March 07 2011 11:59 Gnarg wrote:
The point is that Jinro would've won that game as well really easily if he just went bio with hellion drops. So it doesnt "show" that mech is a better strat than standard play.
It is completely ridiculous anyway to make those kind of conlusions from just 1 series.
Why would he go for hellions in the first place if he wasn't going for mech?
I think it's an awesome series to make conclusions from, as it's a revolutionary strategy for terran, who still have trouble grasping the concept of making more than 4 units in TvP.
Not to mention that it undeniably was very high level players.
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On March 07 2011 11:56 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:53 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 11:50 Euronyme wrote:
Zergs are sertainly not doing well, and terrans are stronger than protosses as always. The collosus is beaten by.. is it three marauders?. You need forcefields, and just handling a protoss army with zealots in front requires separate army hotkeys. Imagine how much worse the 1A terrans would be off if the marine would be way faster than the marauders. Are you commenting silver league play or something? Protoss never struggles with terran BIO after the earlygame. Tell that to IMMVP. And this is also my point. Terran needs to switch it up, and try more tech paths than just marine marauder medivac if they want to keep up with protoss. Right now protoss is nerfed because their t3 units fair better in a 200/200 encounter with a terran t1 army. I don't see how you can even make that comparison. And who said I'm commentating? Show nested quote + There's a difference between getting a unit to harass with, and having it being your active army composition. That's why you're not going "air play" when you make one or two banshees with cloak to kill drones.
Blueflame hellions to harass workers != mech play. If you're getting an early factory, starport and tech lab on the factory, chances are you're going for siege tank next. It's just the more reasonably tech path. Also Hellions rape zealots.. Not having them in an active army composition is missing out on a huge opportunity-
The problem is that Terran doesn't have anything to switch it up, and hellions are relatively wank against zealots. They take absolutely forever to kill a zealot, and their splash isn't even very effective since chargelots don't stack up in a line.
Tanks do more DPS to light units than hellions, marines kill zealots faster than hellions do. Thus, the biomech composition. There will never be a full mech that's viable against protoss, because chargelots are to good, and immortals are to good. Going marine/marauder with tanks on the other hand is solid.
On March 07 2011 12:05 Euronyme wrote:Why would he go for hellions in the first place if he wasn't going for mech?
I think it's an awesome series to make conclusions from, as it's a revolutionary strategy for terran, who still have trouble grasping the concept of making more than 4 units in TvP.
Not to mention that it undeniably was very high level players.
Because you can make hellions/banshees just to harass with? It's something people do constantly, before they switch back to full bio...
Also, Terran generally have a more varied unit mix compared to protoss, so I don't know what your herp derp arguments are all about.
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On March 07 2011 12:05 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:59 Gnarg wrote:
The point is that Jinro would've won that game as well really easily if he just went bio with hellion drops. So it doesnt "show" that mech is a better strat than standard play.
It is completely ridiculous anyway to make those kind of conlusions from just 1 series. Why would he go for hellions in the first place if he wasn't going for mech? I think it's an awesome series to make conclusions from, as it's a revolutionary strategy for terran, who still have trouble grasping the concept of making more than 4 units in TvP. Not to mention that it undeniably was very high level players.
Thinking that hellion drops into mech is the new way to play terran is stupid. If the protoss expects it might be comming its really easy to defend, so it will probably never become a standard build. In order for a game to suggest that mech is viable, the terran should be able to win a straigth up battle with an equal skilled protoss on equal economy. Relying on being economically ahead each game with hellion drop is unrealistic. Games that show the terran winning on equal economy like that almost dont exist.
But go ahead. You can go on being an arrogant douchebag thinking that all terrans are dumb and should just play mech. In the meanwhile Blizzard will see the truth and nerf amulet.
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On March 07 2011 12:05 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 11:59 Gnarg wrote:
The point is that Jinro would've won that game as well really easily if he just went bio with hellion drops. So it doesnt "show" that mech is a better strat than standard play.
It is completely ridiculous anyway to make those kind of conlusions from just 1 series. Why would he go for hellions in the first place if he wasn't going for mech? I think it's an awesome series to make conclusions from, as it's a revolutionary strategy for terran, who still have trouble grasping the concept of making more than 4 units in TvP. Not to mention that it undeniably was very high level players.
Because Hellions come from a tech structure required for Medivacs, a critical part of the bio mix, which coincidentally allows for dropping those units into a mineral line? Hellions are also dirt cheap (100mins) and the only real investment is the pre-igniter upgrade. There's plenty of reasons to build Hellions even if you don't plan to use them as a chunk of your main army...
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I still think they should nerf the colossus death ball first before the amulet.
Seems sort of counterintuitive, but here's the thing: protoss right now is "balanced" only because of the colossus death ball. If they nerf that, protoss would probably start losing a lot of games. Then the question would become how would protoss be balanced without so much reliance on the death ball. More depth, more strategies, more fun.
I think that also solves the problem with storm warp-ins. Presumably any strategy that replaces the colossus death ball will be more nimble and less brittle, so people will be able to station units for defense without having to worry about the death ball synergy. Then amulet can be nerfed or removed, and no one will complain.
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bw comparisons arent as applicable because terran drops in sc2 are way stronger than in bw since medivac is much better than bw dropship
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- Khaydarin Amulet upgrade (+25 starting energy) has been removed.
Probably been mentioned before, but WTF 
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Removing the Khaydarin upgrade isnt that bad imho it just means that high templars can no longer warp psi storm on spam.But increasing stim research time by 30 seconds is massive it but I see the balance in removing terran mass mm rushing viability against zerg and protoss units.
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On March 07 2011 16:45 L6-636536 wrote:
Removing the Khaydarin upgrade isnt that bad imho it just means that high templars can no longer warp psi storm on spam.But increasing stim research time by 30 seconds is massive it but I see the balance in removing terran mass mm rushing viability against zerg and protoss units.
I know what you mean, but there have been multiple times when I've saved my base with just freshly spawned HT and sentry, won't be able to do that again
Also, I'm glad about the stim times :D
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i hope they remove the amulet from the game and i am a toss player and i hope that they make the collosi weaker, and then to compensate i hope charge becomes a 50 50 upgrade at the cyber core and allows zealots or stalkers to move extra fast and at the same time maybe if blizzard is in a good mood my 1 stalker cost for cost can win vs a maurader
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I'm pretty sure we're going to see a lot more ghosts when amulet's gone too, which sucks. EMP turns SC2 into counter-strike.
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On March 07 2011 10:21 jalstar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 09:58 IVN wrote:
I just dont get how HTs/storms are the problem. They're T3 for gods sake. They're suposed to be powerful. Sure, if T or Z mass T1, they'll get owned. BUT, thats exactly the way its supposed to be.
Fucking up HTs is just wrong. Let the lazy terrans figure out new strats involving tanks and stuff, and if that doesnt work, then nerf the HTs, but not before. Terran can't engage a Protoss late game army straight up with bio, and that's ok, that's not inherently imbalanced, but bio should be a viable late game strategy, T shouldn't be forced to transition into mech, one way to do that is to make drops possible late-game by removing amulet. Note that stim timing has been increased, this means that occasionally Protoss will be ahead after the opening. Terran's strength isn't their army, it's that they go into mid and late-game ahead or even almost all the time, with late stims vs toss they might be behind, meaning bio is useless if there's no way to drop and avoid Toss' army, the stim nerf is directly related to the amulet nerf.
And why not? Protoss is forced to transition to HT/Colossi, cause stim rapes Stalkers/Sentries/Lots.
The most ridicules imbalance in SC2 (IMO) is making the basic terran units sooooo powerful, that they can even match the T3 tech of P and Z. I wouldent be against nerfing HTs or potentially Colossi, BUT only if stim att and movement speed is nerfed significantly. (from +50%, down to +25%, or something like that)
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On March 04 2011 07:38 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2011 07:19 PrinceXizor wrote:On March 04 2011 07:14 idonthinksobro wrote:
can someone post a replay or link to a youtube video that shows one of these new chargelots?
they look the same just they get a full hit off before having to chase. IE charge is a cooldown for a guaranteed hit now instead of just movement. ... I hope this is not how the mechanic works.
better be how it works..... I mean it is rather silly that a 50-50 upgrades completly shuts down a upgrade that is 200-200 from a twilight council.. pretty humorous.
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On March 07 2011 12:15 Gnarg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 12:05 Euronyme wrote:On March 07 2011 11:59 Gnarg wrote:
The point is that Jinro would've won that game as well really easily if he just went bio with hellion drops. So it doesnt "show" that mech is a better strat than standard play.
It is completely ridiculous anyway to make those kind of conlusions from just 1 series. Why would he go for hellions in the first place if he wasn't going for mech? I think it's an awesome series to make conclusions from, as it's a revolutionary strategy for terran, who still have trouble grasping the concept of making more than 4 units in TvP. Not to mention that it undeniably was very high level players. Thinking that hellion drops into mech is the new way to play terran is stupid. If the protoss expects it might be comming its really easy to defend, so it will probably never become a standard build. In order for a game to suggest that mech is viable, the terran should be able to win a straigth up battle with an equal skilled protoss on equal economy. Relying on being economically ahead each game with hellion drop is unrealistic. Games that show the terran winning on equal economy like that almost dont exist. But go ahead. You can go on being an arrogant douchebag thinking that all terrans are dumb and should just play mech. In the meanwhile Blizzard will see the truth and nerf amulet.
I'm just saying that a terran with more than MMM+viking is more scary but almost unse, which means that protoss high tech is being balanced to not be too good against terran low tech.. There are alot of builds relying on harass. For instance the 5 rax reaper build that was so popular earlier relied on the terran getting ahead in resources, and it was totally overpowered, and no, terrans winning on equal economy didn't exist, because that meant they failed.
I'm saying that terrans could mix it up and use ghosts (and other high tech) more, as they on paper owns templar on every level. I don't see how the amulet is such a huge problem. They have an easier available counter in the terran arsenal atleast.
I guess storm is a problem in PvZ though.
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On March 07 2011 19:14 IVN wrote:
[The most ridicules imbalance in SC2 (IMO) is making the basic terran units sooooo powerful, that they can even match the T3 tech of P and Z. I wouldent be against nerfing HTs or potentially Colossi, BUT only if stim att and movement speed is nerfed significantly. (from +50%, down to +25%, or something like that)
The most ridicilous imbalance in SC2 imo is that a terran that doesn't MMM + viking + ghost, dies very hard. Mech doesn't work, thors do not work, bc's are shit. I even agree to remove the marauder if tanks actually would work ..
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weee,
master and grandmaster league!
and who said that StarCraft is nothing like chess ?
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On March 07 2011 19:14 IVN wrote:And why not? Protoss is forced to transition to HT/Colossi, cause stim rapes Stalkers/Sentries/Lots.
Until the Protoss starts using the sentries properly.
Also, if Protoss T1 was as strong as Terran T1, 4gates would be unstoppable, and the only way to stop 4gates from Blizzards point of view would be to nerf/remove/change the warping in mechanic, and pretty much turn Protoss into Terran that harasses with its T1 while the other races turtle up and try to tech.
Choose your poison.
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On March 07 2011 19:34 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:14 IVN wrote:And why not? Protoss is forced to transition to HT/Colossi, cause stim rapes Stalkers/Sentries/Lots. Until the Protoss starts using the sentries properly. Also, if Protoss T1 was as strong as Terran T1, 4gates would be unstoppable, and the only way to stop 4gates from Blizzards point of view would be to nerf/remove/change the warping in mechanic, and pretty much turn Protoss into Terran that harasses with its T1 while the other races turtle up and try to tech. Choose your poison.
My position is: stop QQing terrans. Your T1 army is waaaaaay overpowered and dirt cheap. ANd FF/Sentries are only able to lessen that. Toss still lose so much more resources in every confrontation. But thats not enough. Best toss units are UP in ever segment of the game.
My take is: yes, please nerf or take HTs and Colossi out of the game, but integrate a new core level upgrade (power overwhelming), which costs 100/100, takes 140 sec to upgrade, makes 25% hull dmg to lots and stalkers, but gives them +50% to att and movement speed.
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On March 07 2011 19:34 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:14 IVN wrote:And why not? Protoss is forced to transition to HT/Colossi, cause stim rapes Stalkers/Sentries/Lots. Until the Protoss starts using the sentries properly. Also, if Protoss T1 was as strong as Terran T1, 4gates would be unstoppable, and the only way to stop 4gates from Blizzards point of view would be to nerf/remove/change the warping in mechanic, and pretty much turn Protoss into Terran that harasses with its T1 while the other races turtle up and try to tech. Choose your poison.
Yeah, Sentries are great and evens the imbalance between MM and Warpgate units a bit. But it hardly helps against small forces (aka drops) or without choke points. So its not just nearly impossible to defend many attacks at once with warpgate units, it also gives complete map dominance to MM. And yeah, so P needs to transition into T3.
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On March 07 2011 20:03 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:34 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 19:14 IVN wrote:And why not? Protoss is forced to transition to HT/Colossi, cause stim rapes Stalkers/Sentries/Lots. Until the Protoss starts using the sentries properly. Also, if Protoss T1 was as strong as Terran T1, 4gates would be unstoppable, and the only way to stop 4gates from Blizzards point of view would be to nerf/remove/change the warping in mechanic, and pretty much turn Protoss into Terran that harasses with its T1 while the other races turtle up and try to tech. Choose your poison. My position is: stop QQing terrans. Your T1 army is waaaaaay overpowered and dirt cheap. ANd FF/Sentries are only able to lessen that. Toss still lose so much more resources in every confrontation. But thats not enough. Best toss units are UP in ever segment of the game. My take is: yes, please nerf or take HTs and Colossi out of the game, but integrate a new core level upgrade (power overwhelming), which costs 100/100, takes 140 sec to upgrade, makes 25% hull dmg to lots and stalkers, but gives them +50% to att and movement speed.
Get a clue.
On March 07 2011 20:03 hrrrufrr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2011 19:34 Dalavita wrote:On March 07 2011 19:14 IVN wrote:And why not? Protoss is forced to transition to HT/Colossi, cause stim rapes Stalkers/Sentries/Lots. Until the Protoss starts using the sentries properly. Also, if Protoss T1 was as strong as Terran T1, 4gates would be unstoppable, and the only way to stop 4gates from Blizzards point of view would be to nerf/remove/change the warping in mechanic, and pretty much turn Protoss into Terran that harasses with its T1 while the other races turtle up and try to tech. Choose your poison. Yeah, Sentries are great and evens the imbalance between MM and Warpgate units a bit. But it hardly helps against small forces (aka drops) or without choke points. So its not just nearly impossible to defend many attacks at once with warpgate units, it also gives complete map dominance to MM. And yeah, so P needs to transition into T3.
If the game is at a stage where you can't have your army inside your base, you should have enough warp gates to be able to warp in some zealots and stalkers into the base being attacked and defend drops.
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EPT
