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WastedGunner
23 Posts
You shouldn't punish the losers that much, it ruins the game. The only exception to the bo3 should be the argument of whether the loser's bracket champion should beat the winner's bracket champion once or twice. Thats the ONLY thing that should be in debate. This extended series crap is rediculous, and this tournament will never be taken as seriously as GSL. | ||
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TemplarCo.
Mexico2870 Posts
On February 26 2011 09:09 Hoju wrote: This just shows that MLG wants to top the GSL.... in complexity LOL!!!, Yes I agree it takes its time to understand how the GSL and now MLG works, but still we get to see great games with great players, no matter at what point in the bracket. | ||
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CptHero
Canada15 Posts
Even GSL's wonky format doesn't receive much in the way of complaints other than "what the heck is going on?!". | ||
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Kazang
578 Posts
On February 26 2011 20:19 Redox wrote: Erm the MLG system will actually mean that much less top players from abroad will come to MLGs, becaus they are at a huge disadvanage. I kind of understand that they want to see a majority of local players in these tourneys, but to claim that the MLG system will mean better players skill-wise is absurd. You have to joking. Have you seen the top 16 seeded players? 6 out of the top16 are eu or korea based players, that's hardly a low showing for players travelling in from abroad. MLG's system rewards players who play in MLG tournaments, same way GSL used a point based system to seed players into Code S. MLG's system is actually far more open and accessible than the GSL's, with only 16 players starting in the seeded champion bracket, with the other 16 coming from the open bracket. GSL code S is 32 only seeded players, with 16 players from the open bracket (code A) getting a chance to play in Code S next season. At MLG the Top 16 from the open bracket are guaranteed a place in the Top32 championship bracket, the equivalent of Code S. | ||
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taksor
Canada4 Posts
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Vipsanius
Netherlands708 Posts
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monx
Canada1400 Posts
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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durbarak
Austria54 Posts
On a sidenote, the example given didn't help me very much. It took my a while to figure out why a specific player appeared at a specific place(higher seed always wins). Numbered matches and instead of using a fixed player, winner/loser of match X would have helped a lot. TL:DR complicated, yet thought through; looking forward to it | ||
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feanor1
United States1899 Posts
On February 26 2011 17:34 theherder2 wrote: After thinking about the format for a while, I don't mind as much. I had a quick question about the pool play with the Open qualifier. I'm gonna use iNcontroL just as an example for ease of imagination. So would Day 1, group A look like: jinro vs huk, Machine vs Slush, Jinro vs Machine, huk vs Slush, Machine vs huk, Slush vs Jinro. (3 Bo3s per player) Hypothetical Open: iNcontroL wins 256 -> 128 -> 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8 -> 4 to qualify (6 Bo3s) Day 2 Group A: iNcontrol v jinro, incontroL v Huk, iNcontroL v Slush, iNcontroL v Machine (4 Bo3s) for iNcontroL (1 Bo3) for seeded players. Day 3 Championship Bracket? 16 -> 8 -> 4-> 2-> 1 Winner (4 Bo3s to win) Any seeded/open player can potentially be 5th and start in Ro16, so max potential 4 Bo3s. TOTAL Bo3s: Seeded players: Up to 8 Bo3s TOTAL Bo3s: Open Winner: Up to 14 Bo3s Logistically, Day 2 wouldn't make sense in this situation, because incontrol would be in such a disadvantageous situation having to endure 4 tough matches. There is a very big difference in games played between Open and Seeded players. This is what I gathered from the posts I've read so far but I may be wrong about the timing of the matches and if pool play will finish with seeded players on the first day. While i'm still thinking hypothetically, being in the top 8 of the lower open bracket means that... Day 1: 256 -> 128 -> 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8 (Loss) which is (5 Bo3s) Day 2: No games? Waiting for pool play? Day 3: 32 -> 16 -> 8 -> 4 -> 2 -> winner (5 Bo3s to win) TOTAL Open Winner (top4) = 14 Bo3s potentially to win TOTAL Open Qualifier (5-12) = 10 Bo3s potentially to win Does that make sense? Yes the Open Winners get a chance to improve their seed by playing in the pools with the top players, but thats just it they're top players and the Open winners are already at a disadvantage in an endurance standpoint. If i'm wrong about anything don't hesitate to point this out because I've been thinking about this a lot and there may be a lot i'm missing. TL;DR - There is a huge timing issue in having to play a open bracket and THEN playing in a pool of stacked people as a reward for seeding. Endurancewise it is a huge disadvantage. Also, although there is a reward of improved seeding but potentially the top 4 Open qualifiers need to play 14 Bo3s to win the championship, whereas the 5-12 ranked Open qualifiers will only need to play 10 Bo3s to win the championship. =\ If they feel its a disadvantage they can lose all four (Bo3 in group play) and be in the same position as their losers braket brethren. I think anyone would rather play four Bo3s with no penalty for losing and a chance to greatly improve their seeding in the Championship bracket | ||
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caelym
United States6421 Posts
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Bobster
Germany3075 Posts
On February 27 2011 02:10 caelym wrote: At first it says the top 16 from the Open bracket will join the Championship bracket (which adds to 32 players). Then it says there are 4 groups of 5 (20 players) for group play. I'm thoroughly confused. The pool play only decides seed positions for the Championship Bracket. It is played beforehand. The problem I see is that this setup means we'll see the best players play the fewest games. Add to that that their games are far less stressful because while the open tournament guys are fighting for their very survival in the tournament, the pool players just determine their seeding. As a seeded player, you can lose your first 4 games and still be in the tournament no problem. That's pretty ridiculous. With a bigger Double Elimination bracket like they had in 2010, every match was a meaningful one. | ||
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kNightLite
United States408 Posts
On February 26 2011 17:34 theherder2 wrote: After thinking about the format for a while, I don't mind as much. I had a quick question about the pool play with the Open qualifier. I'm gonna use iNcontroL just as an example for ease of imagination. So would Day 1, group A look like: jinro vs huk, Machine vs Slush, Jinro vs Machine, huk vs Slush, Machine vs huk, Slush vs Jinro. (3 Bo3s per player) Hypothetical Open: iNcontroL wins 256 -> 128 -> 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8 -> 4 to qualify (6 Bo3s) Day 2 Group A: iNcontrol v jinro, incontroL v Huk, iNcontroL v Slush, iNcontroL v Machine (4 Bo3s) for iNcontroL (1 Bo3) for seeded players. Day 3 Championship Bracket? 16 -> 8 -> 4-> 2-> 1 Winner (4 Bo3s to win) Any seeded/open player can potentially be 5th and start in Ro16, so max potential 4 Bo3s. TOTAL Bo3s: Seeded players: Up to 8 Bo3s TOTAL Bo3s: Open Winner: Up to 14 Bo3s Logistically, Day 2 wouldn't make sense in this situation, because incontrol would be in such a disadvantageous situation having to endure 4 tough matches. There is a very big difference in games played between Open and Seeded players. This is what I gathered from the posts I've read so far but I may be wrong about the timing of the matches and if pool play will finish with seeded players on the first day. While i'm still thinking hypothetically, being in the top 8 of the lower open bracket means that... Day 1: 256 -> 128 -> 64 -> 32 -> 16 -> 8 (Loss) which is (5 Bo3s) Day 2: No games? Waiting for pool play? Day 3: 32 -> 16 -> 8 -> 4 -> 2 -> winner (5 Bo3s to win) TOTAL Open Winner (top4) = 14 Bo3s potentially to win TOTAL Open Qualifier (5-12) = 10 Bo3s potentially to win Does that make sense? Yes the Open Winners get a chance to improve their seed by playing in the pools with the top players, but thats just it they're top players and the Open winners are already at a disadvantage in an endurance standpoint. If i'm wrong about anything don't hesitate to point this out because I've been thinking about this a lot and there may be a lot i'm missing. TL;DR - There is a huge timing issue in having to play a open bracket and THEN playing in a pool of stacked people as a reward for seeding. Endurancewise it is a huge disadvantage. Also, although there is a reward of improved seeding but potentially the top 4 Open qualifiers need to play 14 Bo3s to win the championship, whereas the 5-12 ranked Open qualifiers will only need to play 10 Bo3s to win the championship. =\ I think one thing you forgot to account for in this analysis is extended series. Most matches in the championship losers bracket will be extended series after the first round, simply because the top20 will have already played most of each other. | ||
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Corrik
United States1416 Posts
Also, I don't get the hate on extended series. This is an event played over a course of a weekend. The only real difference between an extended series and one that isn't is that you could possibly see more games between the two competitors and that the person who lost before has to win more. The reasoning is that if you have say (this is only an example) Idra play Huk. Let's say Idra wins 2-0. Idra goes on in the Winner's Bracket and Huk drops down into the Loser Bracket. Idra then loses to say Jinro and drops down into the Loser Bracket also. Huk wins out to face Idra in the Loser Bracket. If Huk wins 2-1, he would advance though he technically lost more games to Idra than he won. In a tournament with a loser's bracket, you want to ensure the best player/team advances. Thus, this is why extended series is used. I would think most tournaments with a loser's bracket played over a weekend would use an extended series. All it means is that the series would have started 2-0 for Idra. Idra would have to win 2 games while Huk would have to win 4. The reason Huk is in the hole is his own doing for losing the first games. And, this means more games to be viewed if Huk wins the series. This makes every game mean a lot more to the competitor. Sure, Idra might prefer the first and third map so he could just basically cede the 2nd game to the opponent and win 2-1 to advance. But, with extended series, it would make that decision stupid as he might play that opponent later and he is giving him a free win. It's a good rule, in my opinion. | ||
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Corrik
United States1416 Posts
The Top 16 players in points will be the top 16 seeds in the Championship Bracket. They will use 2010 points for the first event and then switch to 2011 points after the first event. Every other player will go to the OPEN tournament. (Max of 256 players). They will play the tournament out until there is 4 players left in the Winner's Bracket and 12 players left in the Loser's Bracket. The Open bracket will not play out completely. The 4 players left in the Winner's Bracket will join the top 16 players in points making 20 players in total. These 20 players will be split into 4 groups of 5 and play pool play against one another. This will determine seedings for the 32 player Championship Bracket. The 12 players joining from the Loser's Bracket in the Open will be the bottom 12 seeds in the Championship Bracket. The 5th place players in pool play in each group will be the 17-20 seeds. The 4th place players will be the 13-16 seeds. The 3rd place players will be the 9-12 seeds. The 2nd place players will be the 5-8 seeds. The 1st place players will be the 1-4 seeds. Now, after having determined the seeds as show above. The players will be put into the tournament in a specific slot determined by their seed. http://media.mlgpro.com/site/files/PoolPlaySimulated.htm This ^ shows where their seed will be placed into the tournament. 1. Basically, 25-32 seeds will play each other. 2. The winners will face the 21-24 seeds. 3. The winners of that game will face the 5th place pool play players. 4. Winners of that face 4th place pool play players. 5. Winners of that face 3rd place. 6. Winners of that face 2nd place. 7. The 1st place players will face each other then. 8. The losers of the 1st place players will then play the winners in number 6 above. 9. The winners in number 8 above will then play each other. 10. The winners of number 7 will play each other. 11. The winner of number 9 and the loser of number 10 will play each other. 12. The winner of 11 will play the winner of number 10. That should make it as clear as possible. (And, yes, for those keeping track... that means if you make the pool play you cannot finish worse than 24th.) | ||
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groms
Canada1017 Posts
GL to MLG and much success in 2011 PS LOL @ extended series I hope SOTG talks about it again :D | ||
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applejuice
307 Posts
never mind i hate my explanation. But it's not very complicated. Re: Extended series Extended series occurs because each MLG event is one continuous event. Maybe it will make more sense to some people if you imagine each match as a best-of-five, with a break in between. In some cases this break may be 1 day, but it could also be as short as an hour. If the players don't meet again in the tournament, then the best-of-five is never completed. Re: Number of games The top players play 10+ hours daily in preparation for a tournament, so I don't see this being an issue. Also, in all the e-sports I've watched, there is a bigger advantage going in "hot" than going in "cold." So I think there's an advantage, just that some people have it backwards. But there's nothing that can be done about that in an event that goes on over one weekend. | ||
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Accidentus
59 Posts
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NexUmbra
Scotland3776 Posts
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