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On February 26 2011 09:23 deathly rat wrote:
Seems like a pretty good system to me since the top players don't have to wade through a million matches, and it is still an open competition that anyone can enter (which i reallly like the concept of).
As far as I understand the extended series is a feature of winners bracket/ losers bracket system, which is seen as a more fair system than straight knock out since you might face the overall winner in the very first round.
One of the things that makes a "top player" is going through the gauntlet and wading through the millions of matches. It is ridiculously unfair that not only do the top 16 basically have no pressure of immediate elimination like every other participant but, also that one of the top 16 seeds could have the worst weekend of his life and place no lower than 32nd. He'll earn the 10 points that 32nd place provides and more than likely be seeded in the next tourney since no one under 32nd place earned any points.
I'm all for giving players that have shown consistency an advantage by seeding them and giving them an easier path to the finals. What MLG have done with this format is not only give them an advantage but, also offered them protection and a shortcut to top 32 for walking through the doors. NO ONE deserves that.
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I don't know about the pool play (sounds cool though, we'll see), the new format is great on the whole. You definitely need a format that rewards the top seeds. These are not isolated, nubb-filled tournaments. It's a regular season with a championship match.
Although each regular season event has much lower prize money than the championship, placing well in the regular season will increase your chances of scoring big at the championships.
So, the format is great for all involved:
1. Exciting for viewers:
---> Culminates in a massive, $50,000 (which i guess is actually $100,000+ all totalled together) LIVE tournament, which makes it super exciting for the viewers.
2. Fair for players.
----> Those who place consistently well will be rewarded, with the biggest reward coming at the end.
This prevents 50 Koreans (or Europeans) being like ROFL LOLBBQ I'll just go for the finals!
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On February 26 2011 16:36 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 09:23 deathly rat wrote:
Seems like a pretty good system to me since the top players don't have to wade through a million matches, and it is still an open competition that anyone can enter (which i reallly like the concept of).
As far as I understand the extended series is a feature of winners bracket/ losers bracket system, which is seen as a more fair system than straight knock out since you might face the overall winner in the very first round. One of the things that makes a "top player" is going through the gauntlet and wading through the millions of matches. It is ridiculously unfair that not only do the top 16 basically have no pressure of immediate elimination like every other participant but, also that one of the top 16 seeds could have the worst weekend of his life and place no lower than 32nd. He'll earn the 10 points that 32nd place provides and more than likely be seeded in the next tourney since no one under 32nd place earned any points. I'm all for giving players that have shown consistency an advantage by seeding them and giving them an easier path to the finals. What MLG have done with this format is not only give them an advantage but, also offered them protection and a shortcut to top 32 for walking through the doors. NO ONE deserves that.
also take note that on the next tournament the player is gonna lose some of his points which will affect his placement.
MLG will be having lan centers do mini MLG tournaments where ppl can gain points to get a better seeding/placing.
So no top 16 players aren't gonna stay in there forever.
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On February 26 2011 16:36 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 09:23 deathly rat wrote:
Seems like a pretty good system to me since the top players don't have to wade through a million matches, and it is still an open competition that anyone can enter (which i reallly like the concept of).
As far as I understand the extended series is a feature of winners bracket/ losers bracket system, which is seen as a more fair system than straight knock out since you might face the overall winner in the very first round. One of the things that makes a "top player" is going through the gauntlet and wading through the millions of matches. It is ridiculously unfair that not only do the top 16 basically have no pressure of immediate elimination like every other participant but, also that one of the top 16 seeds could have the worst weekend of his life and place no lower than 32nd. He'll earn the 10 points that 32nd place provides and more than likely be seeded in the next tourney since no one under 32nd place earned any points. I'm all for giving players that have shown consistency an advantage by seeding them and giving them an easier path to the finals. What MLG have done with this format is not only give them an advantage but, also offered them protection and a shortcut to top 32 for walking through the doors. NO ONE deserves that.
If you're bottom of the group ("32nd") and the person from the Open Tournament stomps you in his running through the gauntlet, you're not getting those 10 points just for showing up. This isn't really an unlikely scenario, either - but it does LIMIT how many people are going to drop out from the preferential seeding to 1 per group in the first tournament. That's honestly fine - it really ends up not being that dissimilar to dropping out of code A in the GSL. (Do awful in the group play AND get beaten by someone new who qualified before you lose your spot)
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On February 26 2011 16:27 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 16:24 DystopiaX wrote:
Yeah, they had the same problem with Halo. Basically the only way to get onto a good team was to join (since there's a team of 4) an open spot by making your name by either being really good at FFA or begging pros to play with you. Now that there's only 1 player, basically no one will break top 16 that was already there. Just too many games, nothing to do with skill. Yep, play an entire 256 man, best of three, double elim tournament friday until early morning Play 4 best of 5s just to seed into a championship bracket play the championship bracket I would be surprised if any pro could really play top shape through that and beat completely rested "seeded" players. It's not that they seed players, it's the humongous advantage they get.
The only time an amateur player will get to play a pro(top16) is when they make it out of the open bracket, and it will be on the second day after they're fully rested....
so you're argument bout non seeded players not being fully rested to play against seeded players is false.
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For anyone not understanding the problem with the Extended series rule in MLG:
Purpose of the extended series rule(1):
The extended series rule purpose is:
When player 1 has a better record than player 2 in the relevant match history the player has a right to keep this plus record going into the coming match.
When using this kind of rule, in order for the advantage gained to be objectively fair it has to comply to one of the following rules:
1a. All relevant match history is accounted for (i.e. all games played in tournament) when computing the advantage given.
1b. The two players can be assumed to have performed equally good in matches not accounted for.
Problem (1)
MLG's extended series rule does not comply to one of the above stated rule as:
1a. Only one match is taken into account when computing the advantage gained.
1b. Player 1, gaining an advantage from the rule can be assumed to have lost 1 more game than player 2 which isn't taken into account.
As such, player 1 should be penalized in some way for loosing more "other" games than his opponent the same way he is getting rewarded winning more games than his opponent.
Counterargument (2)
Player 1 should still be premiered as he remained in the winner bracket longer and thus is expected to have met on average stiffer competition.
Problem (2)
Player 1 has already been rewarded for his on average stiffer competitions. For each game player 1 played in the winners bracket player 2 played the double amount of games minus one(2n-1).
Conclusion
"Extended series rule" (meeting either criteria 1a or 1b) and "Winner bracket having fewer rounds" (meeting criteria 1b) is both fair when used independently. In that case they both gives rightful advantage to players having met stiffer competition or posted better results. Them used in combination gives an overbalanced advantage for winning certain games and no compensation for winning others.
When an extended series is warranted
In a double elimination tournament, extended series should only be used for the first round of the lower bracket. When used in the first round of the lower bracket, player 1 should receive compensation for having won more games than his opponent irrespectively of the two players having met before or not.
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Also, it's a much less extreme format than what is currently place in Korea at the GSL.
If you're a low seed in the GSL, you have zero chance at winning anything at all. And that's assuming you're already in Code A. Code A players don't win anything except a chance to play in the Code S ("The Championship Bracket") NEXT TOURNAMENT.
Heh, and if you're not in Code A, good luck even qualifying for Code A.
Aside from GSL favouring high seeds even more than MLG, MLG is essentially a condensed version of GSL. Especially now that they both have pool play.
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On February 26 2011 16:45 zaii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 16:27 dacthehork wrote:On February 26 2011 16:24 DystopiaX wrote:
Yeah, they had the same problem with Halo. Basically the only way to get onto a good team was to join (since there's a team of 4) an open spot by making your name by either being really good at FFA or begging pros to play with you. Now that there's only 1 player, basically no one will break top 16 that was already there. Just too many games, nothing to do with skill. Yep, play an entire 256 man, best of three, double elim tournament friday until early morning Play 4 best of 5s just to seed into a championship bracket play the championship bracket I would be surprised if any pro could really play top shape through that and beat completely rested "seeded" players. It's not that they seed players, it's the humongous advantage they get. The only time an amateur player will get to play a pro(top16) is when they make it out of the open bracket, and it will be on the second day after they're fully rested.... so you're argument bout non seeded players not being fully rested to play against seeded players is false.
Not sure it's an official schedule, but the schedule listed by Hoju http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=8069927 seems to indicate that the player doesn't get to have a full day to rest. They play through the 264 man open tournament until mid-evening saturday, then group play for championship starts as well as the first two championship losers brackets. And championship play completes on Sunday. So when do the open bracket players get to rest between the open bracket and championship bracket?
This is especially relevant for people that lose the first round in the open tournament, as EVERY losers round game for the open tournament will take place on Saturday before they even get to play in the championship losers bracket.
Thank you Blueblister for that very well constructed post.
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Extended Series is staying nuff said, and besides it brings out the best in players. Example Fenix vs Axlav.
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On February 26 2011 13:09 Response wrote:
apparently I'm in FXO and I didnt even know it T_T
My apologies. Fixed.
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On February 26 2011 16:53 applejuice wrote:
Also, it's a much less extreme format than what is currently place in Korea at the GSL.
If you're a low seed in the GSL, you have zero chance at winning anything at all. And that's assuming you're already in Code A. Code A players don't win anything except a chance to play in the Code S ("The Championship Bracket") NEXT TOURNAMENT.
Heh, and if you're not in Code A, good luck even qualifying for Code A.
Aside from GSL favouring high seeds even more than MLG, MLG is essentially a condensed version of GSL. Especially now that they both have pool play.
But the problem is that it is condensed...playing for one and a half days straight (minus sleep, meal time) will make any beastly player's play suffer. They may be better than a top 16 player, but won't be able to prove it.
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how are they playing for one and a half day str8?
You get 8 hours of sleep till the next day(Sat).
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Australia7069 Posts
I'm really hoping that this is one of those things that SEEMS confusing but makes sense when you see it played out. I have a general idea of whats going on, but isn't there an easier way to seed people into a tournament instead of having like, 3 tournament and sutff? ergg
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On February 26 2011 16:56 zaii wrote:
Extended Series is staying nuff said, and besides it brings out the best in players. Example Fenix vs Axlav.
Please, try to meet an logical argumentative post with logical argument of your own. Your claim that Fenix vs Axlav was a good game because of the extended series rule doesn't hold water.
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On February 26 2011 17:06 zaii wrote:
how are they playing for one and a half day str8?
You get 8 hours of sleep till the next day(Sat).
Yeah, but 8-10 hours of straight starcraft other than sleeping doesn't make it any better. Arguing that this is fair for open bracket people is senseless...starting fresh vs. playing for at least 8 hours prior (no break right into championships) and almost as long the day before is no contest.
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On February 26 2011 17:12 Blueblister wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 16:56 zaii wrote:
Extended Series is staying nuff said, and besides it brings out the best in players. Example Fenix vs Axlav. Please, try to meet an logical argumentative post with logical argument of your own. Your claim that Fenix vs Axlav was a good game because of the extended series rule doesn't hold water.
I said brings out the best in players. Read it again.
Coming back from a 0-3 deficit and winning didn't bring out the best in Axlav?
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Just curious why it says "23. LG.masq (T) - 620" since I have no team and haven't been affiliated with LG.
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On February 26 2011 17:18 zaii wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 17:12 Blueblister wrote:On February 26 2011 16:56 zaii wrote:
Extended Series is staying nuff said, and besides it brings out the best in players. Example Fenix vs Axlav. Please, try to meet an logical argumentative post with logical argument of your own. Your claim that Fenix vs Axlav was a good game because of the extended series rule doesn't hold water. I said brings out the best in players. Read it again. Coming back from a 0-3 deficit and winning didn't bring out the best in Axlav?
So a rule where one player is given a 50% health handicap is good in your opinion? It will bring out the best in the player if he wins!!!
MLG is keeping the rule because they like it and its used in halo, doubt anyone can change their mind.
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On February 26 2011 17:16 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2011 17:06 zaii wrote:
how are they playing for one and a half day str8?
You get 8 hours of sleep till the next day(Sat). Yeah, but 8-10 hours of straight starcraft other than sleeping doesn't make it any better. Arguing that this is fair for open bracket people is senseless...starting fresh vs. playing for at least 8 hours prior (no break right into championships) and almost as long the day before is no contest.
Open bracket players have to earn there way to pool play. Don't underestimate players who are dedicated and skilled. Also if an open bracket player keeps winning he plays less matches.
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EPT
