[G] Comprehensive SC2 League and Ladder Guide - Page 81

Excalibur_Z

United States12240 Posts

December 31 2013 16:44 GMT

#1601

On December 31 2013 22:31 Extenz wrote:
If you leave your league before the new season, do you get to play all 5 placement matches and your mmr resets?

No, because you still have games recorded for that season.

tili

United States1332 Posts

December 31 2013 16:49 GMT

#1602

On December 03 2013 07:00 Excalibur_Z wrote:

Show nested quote +

On December 03 2013 05:48 zajeBEASTY wrote:

On December 03 2013 03:39 Excalibur_Z wrote:

On December 02 2013 19:28 zajeBEASTY wrote:

On December 02 2013 03:02 Excalibur_Z wrote:

On December 01 2013 06:13 zajeBEASTY wrote:
great post and explanation - thank you very much for it!

edit:

I have just one question if anyone knows the answer it will be sweet because I dont know if leaving league has any sense in my case:

"Seasonal placement matches place players in a league depending on their current MMR following the placement match, just as the initial 5 placement matches when starting a new account, and do not require crossing a confidence buffer".

So:

Does the placement match after I leave league mid-season work the same?? Do I still dont require crossing a confidence buffer so I can easier get promoted/demoted???

Thank you.

I believe so, yes. I haven't heard of anyone actually getting promoted after leaving league and coming back, this would probably be a rare occurrence to happen when you're right on the border and one more game would push your over. Demotions, though, yes.

Thanks for answering my question Excalibur_Z! I too did think the same so I wont be promoted if I leave my league especially will ladder dafltion happening nowadays - I really hope they will fix that soon! Now there is over 65% active bronze/silver players and over 80% bronze/silver/gold players. I dont care, I play, but many may quit game if this isnt corrected.

There are not 65% active bronze/silver players, there's no way. You're looking at total accounts and those do not represent the active player population at all. The lower leagues appear inflated because inactive players are pushed down into them, but the reason they were pushed down at all is simply because they're not playing the game.

That's not to say they never play any games (obviously they do otherwise they wouldn't be in a league at all), and it's also not to say that there isn't a potential skill definition issue. Let's say you log on today in Bronze and play 10 games. Let's say Bronze is currently made up of active and inactive Bronze players, inactive Silvers, inactive Golds, and inactive Platinums. Let's also say that you have maybe a 60% chance of playing an active Bronze, 20% an inactive Bronze, 10% an inactive Silver, 7% an inactive Gold, and 3% an inactive Platinum. Just based on who is currently queued up, there is a very low chance that you'll hit someone who has decayed all the way from Platinum, but it still exists! If some inactive demoted-from-Platinum guy decides to play one game a month, and you're the lucky opponent, it's probably not going to end well for you if you're playing at a Bronze level, and that sucks.

Hmm... I didnt think about that, are there any stats that says it clearly that leagues are still like they should be (2% 18% 20% 32% 20% 8%)??

You can consult my activity metric thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423477

I would be interested to see if this has changed significantly since August.

From what I understand from your activity metric thread - the ladder was fairly well distributed, but since Blizzard released a situation report, something must have gone awry since then?

Excalibur_Z

United States12240 Posts

December 31 2013 17:03 GMT

#1603

It's actually probably still close to the same, but I can't get another parse to confirm unfortunately. That parse was taken after decay had been in for 4 seasons already, and in terms of unspent bonus pool, the league distribution was still pretty close to the targets. The issue is that that activity metric doesn't take into account decay, which makes it look like there's no problem on the surface. The numbers are what they always were, and so it must mean no changes need to be made, right?

I think it's possible that they maybe didn't account for two things when implementing decay: 1) the websites that list the populations in each league in terms of total (active and inactive) players, and 2) the psychological impact that decay has on a player's league assignment and the leagues of the opponents they face. #2 means that there's an upswell of unrest and frustration, and because the system is so heavily obfuscated, #1 is their only info source and their reference for outrage. Eventually it's hit a fever pitch and Blizzard couldn't ignore it anymore, so that's why they released the Situation Report.

As for what they'll do to "fix" the issue (nothing's actually broken), they'll probably just modify the league boundaries and introduce a secondary decay filter in addition to the primary bonus pool filter so that the leagues more closely resemble the targets. I bet they still won't match the SC2Ranks/Nios numbers (but with an activity filter guiding the ladder distribution, they never will, which is fine) so inevitably similar "wtf is up with ladder distribution" threads will crop up. Maybe they could add rapid rebounding for decayed players to offset the deflationary effect that decay has on the entire ladder, and that could possibly mitigate the downward trend as well.

tili

United States1332 Posts

January 01 2014 20:32 GMT

#1604

On January 01 2014 02:03 Excalibur_Z wrote:
As for what they'll do to "fix" the issue (nothing's actually broken), they'll probably just modify the league boundaries and introduce a secondary decay filter in addition to the primary bonus pool filter so that the leagues more closely resemble the targets. I bet they still won't match the SC2Ranks/Nios numbers (but with an activity filter guiding the ladder distribution, they never will, which is fine) so inevitably similar "wtf is up with ladder distribution" threads will crop up. Maybe they could add rapid rebounding for decayed players to offset the deflationary effect that decay has on the entire ladder, and that could possibly mitigate the downward trend as well.

The language in the situation report seems to make it seem like there is a legitimate problem"

For various reasons since that announcement, the distribution of players across leagues slowly shifted to no longer match those desired targets. Currently the lower leagues like bronze and silver have a larger percentage of players than desired. Meanwhile the upper leagues like platinum and diamond are under-represented. One of the reasons this occurred is due to the way that we maintain those target percentages.

Do you think they are simply saying that for PR/to give a simpler explanation?

Excalibur_Z

United States12240 Posts

January 01 2014 23:43 GMT

#1605

Yes. I mean, everything was working according to their design, but their design may have been overzealous which would make it "broken" even if it's mechanically functional.

probuLing

United States75 Posts

January 03 2014 20:48 GMT

#1606

On Bnet it says that GM starts today (the 3rd). But that didn't happen and never has, so is that just a visual bug and it's really opening in a week on the 10th like every time before?

Excalibur_Z

United States12240 Posts

January 03 2014 21:31 GMT

#1607

Yeah, it's got to open next week unless they changed the design.

tomastaz

United States976 Posts

January 22 2014 03:28 GMT

#1608

Whoa! Nice

NubainMuscle

South Africa423 Posts

January 26 2014 22:01 GMT

#1609

The new patch, and restructured league boundaries, is only a temporary fix.

As long as MMR Decay exists, it will inevitably pull the entire ladder down over time as we have already experienced.

When a 1v1 ladder game takes place, MMR points are transferred between the winning player and losing player, but when an inactive player begins to decay, those MMR points are lost from the system.

It's identical to the concept of a rake in casino hold 'em poker.

The only solution is to remove MMR Decay entirely, or to somehow reintroduce the MMR points that were previously lost (for example, provide bonus MMR to the decayed player when they win until all of the lost points are reintroduced into the system).

y0su

Finland7871 Posts

January 26 2014 23:06 GMT

#1610

On January 27 2014 07:01 NubainMuscle wrote:
The new patch, and restructured league boundaries, is only a temporary fix.

As long as MMR Decay exists, it will inevitably pull the entire ladder down over time as we have already experienced.

When a 1v1 ladder game takes place, MMR points are transferred between the winning player and losing player, but when an inactive player begins to decay, those MMR points are lost from the system.

It's identical to the concept of a rake in casino hold 'em poker.

The only solution is to remove MMR Decay entirely, or to somehow reintroduce the MMR points that were previously lost (for example, provide bonus MMR to the decayed player when they win until all of the lost points are reintroduced into the system).

as long as they keep adjusting the ranges it should stay somewhat okay, but i do think the decay needs reworking

LordYama

United States370 Posts

January 27 2014 01:44 GMT

#1611

Why is MMR decay in any way necessary? Were there really a lot of people who complained about the lack of it? Clearly a lot fewer than the people who complained about the mess the ladder became recently.

Mendelfist

Sweden356 Posts

January 27 2014 05:54 GMT

#1612

It is very unlikely that they haven't considered this. Matchmaking systems often have some sort of anchor to keep the population from drifting.

y0su

Finland7871 Posts

January 27 2014 06:32 GMT

#1613

On January 27 2014 10:44 LordYama wrote:
Why is MMR decay in any way necessary? Were there really a lot of people who complained about the lack of it? Clearly a lot fewer than the people who complained about the mess the ladder became recently.

I'm not saying it is (or isn't) necessary, but there were/are a lot of people who complained about coming back and facing competition that was too hard AND people complained that some people could remain in a league despite playing their one placement match a season.

I feel that blizzard used a sledgehammer where sandpaper would have been better...

Shottaz

United Kingdom414 Posts

February 12 2014 08:59 GMT

#1614

I don't get to play SC2 that much, it seems like every time I come back to it my MMR has sunk too far.

Aeh

Germany31 Posts

February 17 2014 12:18 GMT

#1615

Hm, i have a personal question.
I stopped to play Starcraft 2 about 40weeks ago, and the end i was top 8 Diamond. Now i started to play again and i got ranked silver, after one match i was in Gold.

Now im in Gold place 40~ but i dont become much Points, is that cause of my mmr or why? (300+ Bonuspool).

And i get matched with Platin and Diamond Players.

waitwhat

United States152 Posts

February 17 2014 14:22 GMT

#1616

On February 17 2014 21:18 Aeh wrote:
Hm, i have a personal question.
I stopped to play Starcraft 2 about 40weeks ago, and the end i was top 8 Diamond. Now i started to play again and i got ranked silver, after one match i was in Gold.

Now im in Gold place 40~ but i dont become much Points, is that cause of my mmr or why? (300+ Bonuspool).

And i get matched with Platin and Diamond Players.

Isn't it obvious? The ladder placed you in a lower league because of MMR decay. In other words, since you haven't played in so long, the MMR system subtracted x amount of MMR as per their formula for y time you've been MIA. As to why you're playing Platinum and Diamond players, well that's clearly because your MMR is increasing as you beat players with higher hidden MMR than you. The ladder will promote you when your MMR stabilizes (ie. begin losing to players better than you as per their system).

As for the point concern, not sure what you mean by not gaining many points. You should probably be more specific as to how many points you're obtaining and how much you're expecting.

Whitley

United States238 Posts

March 03 2014 23:33 GMT

#1617

Woot! after keeping around about a 60% win ration for 200 or some games I finally got that promotion to platinum!

Keep grinding ladies and gents!!

MPRO_TITI

Bulgaria1 Post

March 28 2014 18:07 GMT

#1618

Bot edit.

User was banned for this post.

NKexquisite

United States911 Posts

April 06 2014 04:42 GMT

#1619

I think Blizzard made changes since giving out the general # of points you need to get promoted from your league. Did they ever re-release something like that after they made some changes to how the ladder worked?

Excalibur_Z

United States12240 Posts

April 06 2014 05:34 GMT

#1620

On April 06 2014 13:42 NKexquisite wrote:
I think Blizzard made changes since giving out the general # of points you need to get promoted from your league. Did they ever re-release something like that after they made some changes to how the ladder worked?

They made lots of changes which makes those old charts obsolete:

1. The bonus pool accumulation rate doubled in patch 2.0. The numbers in the chart include bonus pool.
2. The league distribution changed from 2/18/20/20/20/20 to 2/18/20/32/20/8 in Heart of the Swarm.
3. Division tiers were removed (this doesn't really affect the integrity of the chart, but the chart wasn't accurate for players who were in higher tiers).
4. Seasons are different lengths now, which impacts how high the bonus pool will get.
5. They adjusted the league boundaries a few months ago to account for MMR-decayed players.

No, they haven't released a new chart. Even if they did, it wouldn't be able to account for MMR decay (for example, if the chart said you needed 1000 points, but you had decayed for 4 weeks, you would actually need closer to 1300 to offset it).

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