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On August 05 2014 06:45 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2014 00:49 korona wrote:On August 03 2014 00:19 Zheryn wrote:Why does MMR improve so incredibly slow, or is my account just broken or something? I started playing on this account from low diamond MMR (placed in platinum, promoted to diamond after 2 or 3 games). Since then I've played against diamonds for almost 80 games with 80% win rate. I still meet almost exclusively diamonds even tho I am #1 diamond on NA out of 8,119 players... The fuck is going on? ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fNzef5c.png) First I see you have already been promoted to master & you continue winning considerably more than you lose. It would be interesting to know what were your win and loss counts were when you were promoted (winrate is not interesting). MMR changes rapidly only when you start from blank MMR in certain game mode (5 placements matches). After about 25 matches (includes the 5 placements) the change rate stabilizes. After that it will take considerable amount of matches to go over different leagues (league sizes differ - most are quite small but some like diamond are large). Thanks a lot for the good answer! Yeah I think I got promoted like 5 wins after posting. You say that the MMR change rate stabilizes after some games, but does it not change more after that if you win a lot of games? I did not play on NA last season but I have played to master there before so I guess my change rate was stabilized.
If you had 1 placement match this season (did you?) and had played more than ~25 games in earlier seasons the change rate had already stabilized. Of course the MMR you receive / lose per match varies from match to match depending on your opponent's MMR, but you do not get any 'boosts'.
The exact number of games before the change rate stabilizes has not been confirmed and it could be little more than 25 games. But the 25th game is the game when new accounts are promoted into their true leagues (if they win their 25th match, if they lose then the first subsequent match they win will give promotion if needed). Before that their true MMR can be in higher league range, but the promotions are delayed (league placements are conservative for players starting from blank MMR).
On August 05 2014 06:45 Zheryn wrote:
However, when I have a win rate of 80% does the change rate not increase? I thought that you got slightly higher change rate the more wins you got so if you have like 20 wins in a row the game would increase MMR rapidly until you start losing. This doesn't seem to be the case from my experience tho, rather the other way around lol, which is pretty lame imo.
No change. You receive / lose more or less MMR per match only depending who your opponent is and what his MMR is compared to yours.
Indeed many believe that MMR would 'rise fast' if you only win. But in reality that happens only with a fresh accounts (or with accounts that have had their MMR reset). With a fresh account you can get to master range with ~10 games (or even less) if you were lucky with your placement opponents (at least you could earlier, but I have not checked this for a long time. The master promotion is always delayed to 25th match thought (promotion requires that you win)). But with normal accounts (more than 25 games played after blank MMR start) rising in ladder takes lots of games.
On August 05 2014 06:45 Zheryn wrote:
Edit: Also, since you seem to know your stuff, do you know what the point difference between master and GM is or if there's a way to "compare" your master rank to GM players? I'm currently rank #10 master NA with 974 points. Let's say I was to be promoted or that GM was 300 players instead of 200, around where would I be?
I don't know the average offset regarding adjusted points between masters and grandmasters. But on MMR tool scale the master-gm offset is ~160 (in adjusted points less, but the adjusted points can be off from the actual MMR). The initial entry threshold for GM at the start of this season was all time low for NA server. Only ~1780 on MMR tool scale (master threshold is ~1410). If you gain 16 MMR points per match on average, it would mean ~23 wins more than loses from bottom border of master league. On EU server the initial threshold was considerably higher (~2100).
But if your MMR is near GM range, then you will get plenty of good readings with the MMR tool (I have been its main developer for ~1.5 years now): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/334561-match-making-rating-tool
If you try out the tool then remember that there may sometimes be incorrect calculations, even if majority should be ok. Players who have GM range MMR will get lots of calculation results, which means that there will likely be some incorrect calculations in the mix too (they cause spikes in either direction). The tool relies on information provided by Blizzard's web profiles and since February the profiles have been suffering from out-of-sync update issue, which causes increased amount of incorrect calculations with the MMR tool.
Also remember that the true GM threshold is dynamic. I only update static thresholds for the initial entry barriers after GM has been opened each season to the tool (usually the previous season's value predicts the initial threshold quite nicely). When most GM spots have been used, the entry threshold is usually considerably higher.
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You're very helpful korona. I wish the rate you gain MMR changed depending on your win rate or something so you don't have to play like 150 games to get to master if you have an account you once "stabilized" on platinum or something.
I run Scelight and as far as I know there's no MMR tool for it :/
Another question about how GM works: How come GM is almost never full? Almost every time I check there are only like 198 or so players in it. If one guy dropped out shouldn't the guy with highest moving average MMR in master league be promoted after his next game? I assume that most people who keep such a high MMR are fairly active so it should be pretty quick no? Or are there just a few guys with really high MMR that never play and somehow block other people from joining GM because they have reserved the spots but are not claiming them?
How long can a spot be reserved? Let's say GM fills when it opens, then 10 kespa players start laddering on NA and they all get higher MMR than the #1 GM guy, but they can't get promoted to GM because it's full. If these people then stop laddering and someone drops out of GM, will no one else be able to join because they would have to surpass the kespa guys MMR?
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United States12224 Posts
That is a good question regarding how long the GM slot is saved, I never heard information about that and never thought to ask (my guess is a week because otherwise the player's bonus pool would exceed the entry limit). Once the top 200 have been identified, though, the entry barrier for GM becomes locked for the season at whatever the #200 guy's MMR was at the time he was invites or reserved.
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On August 14 2014 01:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:
That is a good question regarding how long the GM slot is saved, I never heard information about that and never thought to ask (my guess is a week because otherwise the player's bonus pool would exceed the entry limit). Once the top 200 have been identified, though, the entry barrier for GM becomes locked for the season at whatever the #200 guy's MMR was at the time he was invites or reserved.
Ah okay that makes sense, forgot about the bonus pool.
So basically, it's impossible to join GM mid-season if you have lower MMR than the #200 guy had when GM opened, even if there are many slots open in GM league and you have way higher MMR than the rest of master league players?
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On August 14 2014 06:12 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2014 01:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:
That is a good question regarding how long the GM slot is saved, I never heard information about that and never thought to ask (my guess is a week because otherwise the player's bonus pool would exceed the entry limit). Once the top 200 have been identified, though, the entry barrier for GM becomes locked for the season at whatever the #200 guy's MMR was at the time he was invites or reserved. Ah okay that makes sense, forgot about the bonus pool. So basically, it's impossible to join GM mid-season if you have lower MMR than the #200 guy had when GM opened, even if there are many slots open in GM league and you have way higher MMR than the rest of master league players?
My personal assumption regarding this has been (find little hard to believe that the entry barrier would be locked at the opening of GM. There are usually lots of master players hovering near the initial barrier, but it often takes considerable time before the spots are filled during mid-season. But then again Excalibur_Z has had inside contacts):
If there are N GM spots available, then those spots are reserved for N non-GM players who have the N highest non-GM-MMR at that time and pass the activity requirement (have less than 180 bonus pool). To get a GM spot you need to get higher MMR than the lowest of those whom the spots are reserved has, have less than 180 bonus pool & win a match (promotions happen only after you win a match). E.g. if there is one GM spot available and the highest non-GM player has 0 bonus pool when the GM spot becomes available. Then that spot is reserved to him for a week, unless someone else overtakes him regarding MMR. (There is also some kind of minimum requirement for a GM spot too, as otherwise the SEA GM would be more populated. But in practice that requirement is not needed on other servers as their population is considerably larger than the population of SEA server).
Also it seems that the GM activity rule (less than 180 bonus pool) is simply removed when the ladder lock period starts. Why do I think so? Last season I noticed a GM account on NA server during the ladder lock period that had only few games played after its GM placement & had huge unused bonus pool. That account had first used 'leave league' feature and then played one placement match during the ladder lock period and had seemingly immediately been placed into GM (normally you cannot get to GM by just playing a placement match as when GM opens the maximum bonus pool is already higher than 180). That account had been very active during last season and had usually been in TOP-20 of NA GM based on the ladder points. Thus if there are available GM spots during the ladder lock period, it seems it is possible to get placed in GM if you 'leave league' & have high enough MMR when you play your placement match.
Also note that I am speaking of MMR and not the moving average of MMR. Why? Since HotS the promotions for other leagues have been almost clear cut based on MMR tool data. Thus I am not sure if moving average is used at all regarding the promotions at the moment or has it been considerably changed. Before HotS it was more clear that there was some kind of moving average in play.
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I was just promoted to GM (first time ever, yay!) However, I was only rank 8 master with quite a few high level players above me (screenshot of standings right before I got promoted: http://i.imgur.com/zCkWNIl.png). There were 2 GM spots open. It seems like some of the guys above me had like 200-300 bonus pool tho, so I guess they count as inactive for GM spots. Kane only had around 130 bonus pool tho, so I guess I must have just passed the MMR of rank 6 and 7 guy and reserved myself the second spot (Kane should have the first reserved?) and then claimed it right after by winning another game?
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United States12224 Posts
Above you in points, but perhaps not above you in MMR. You are also correct that they can't be promoted into GM with more than 90 bonus pool. Congratulations all the same!
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No news of any league/ladder changes for LotV right? I was expecting them to change the system to be a bit more newb friendly and also to give people a better feeling of progress and real skill level. By adding more leagues, or more sub-leagues like Gold-1, Gold-2 to Gold-5, etc.
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theres a slight error in the OP regarding how many points you can get or lose against or being favored, the minimum gain or loss is 1 and the maximum gain or loss is 44.
@LowToneMoFo the only change to HotS ladder is the inclusion of MMR decay, which rapidly eats away at the MMR of inactive players.
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United States12224 Posts
On November 14 2014 00:32 Meavis wrote:
theres a slight error in the OP regarding how many points you can get or lose against or being favored, the minimum gain or loss is 1 and the maximum gain or loss is 44.
@LowToneMoFo the only change to HotS ladder is the inclusion of MMR decay, which rapidly eats away at the MMR of inactive players.
You can't lose more than 24 points in a game, and the only time you can gain more than 24 is via the bonus pool doubling your points earned. So, that means a game can be worth anywhere from -24 to +48. It's also possible in extreme matchmaking circumstances -- the kind that probably don't happen at all these days -- to lose 0 for a loss, however you will always gain at least +1 for a win. I'm not aware of any changes to this, but if you have any screenshots or examples, please post them.
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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-nuked-
User was banned for this post.
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On December 20 2014 16:33 shamas4450 wrote:
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... wtf LOL
edit : i am going to copy + paste this quote because of how epic it is, it makes no sense but it is so epic...
EDIT 2 : LOLLL WHAT IS THE GOOGLE TRANSLATE MADNESS
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If you leave your league and then don't play the placement, does your MMR still decay if you go inactive for a few weeks? Sorry if this is answered in the thread. I briefly looked and couldn't find anything about it.
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I have been inactive for roughly 6 months 3 times now and each time I get back on it puts me in diamond, I skip about 2-3 seasons between each one and It is still teh same thing. I kind of want to get back into the game but I don't want to learn a new race in games where I know I am going to lose a 100 times over. Is this a bug or is there a way I can reset my mmr?
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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So how did someone just jump from top diamond
diamond to top 5 master? Based on the op she should only land at mid to lower masters. Does this mean her mmr is already near gm territory?
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On January 02 2015 15:03 ren0312 wrote:
So how did someone just jump from top diamond
diamond to top 5 master? Based on the op she should only land at mid to lower masters. Does this mean her mmr is already near gm territory?
Remember that ranks mean nothing regarding the MMR. You can be at the top of your division and actually have lower league MMR. When you are promoted you will always get following amount of ladder points: 73 + bonus points that you have used. Thus if you have spent all your bonus points and it is end of the season, you will get one of the upper ranks in your new division.
Regarding MMR there are two possibilities regarding promotions:
1) New accounts (or accounts that faced MMR reset, 5 placements) that have played less than 25 matches: MMR changes rapidly for these accounts. Also they are placed conservatively usually in lower league than where their actual MMR is. In some ten games it is possible to get master MMR (or was, have not checked how the last year's league range changes affected this), but the first time it is possible to get a master promotion is the 25th match if you win it (or first win after it). By that time some have reached even gm MMR range. Also after 25th match (or repeating win) you should be in your actual league (unless your MMR is in lower league range as there are no demotions during the season).
2) Old accounts (more than 25 games or little more played after blank start): Their MMR change rate has stabilized and it often take tens of wins more than losses to get over each league MMR range. When you are promoted (not placement match) you have just crossed the bottom threshold of your new league. Thus even if your visible points place you amongst the top ranks of your new division, you are actually at the bottom of your new league regarding your MMR. Also note that stabilized accounts are always placed into their actual league based on 1 placement match results (MMR is carried over + the effects of 1 match added + possible decay added).
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Quick question on MMR.
I've played for a few years, nothing special, hanging in diamond current rank 22. I've seen lots of threads over the years about mmr is broken, why aren't I promoted, etc. Never paid much mind to it, ladder seemed to basically function fine.
But lately the mmr seems to REALLY not work. Getting matched against vastly different skill levels. Example today - one terran multitasks and harasses me so bad I can't even remember to put drones on gas or make overlords. Closes the deal with complex multi-drop, 8 different unit-type coordinated attack. Next game guy stays on one base, makes a ball of marines in view of overlords, walks out of single base at 12 minutes and dies to banelings, gg's. First guy apm 170, second guy about 70 (mine is about 100).
I'm not asking just because of those games. It's been like that ALL WEEK. Is this because of declining players on bnet? Am I just imagining it?
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EPT
