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don't get me wrong, i am extremely excited about this, however after reading this, it sounds like an in-group only clubhouse where the people already making a living off of SC2 are just re-entrenching themselves...
have an open tournament, don't make this a "friends of incontrol and nazgul only" tournament, thats horrible. you say you're open to constructive criticism, during that interview, let's see how open. can me and my master league buddies start a team and secure some spots in this tournament if we each pull together $250? no? well then it sounds like you guys are afraid of competition and want to take this 400K and run with it. that's a shame and a pity.
you guys want to use this as a player driven league? to improve the skills of western e-sports? well then give us something to strive for. right now i see money being showered upon the people that are already big names - and great, they deserve compensation, but make them fight for it, don't give it to them guaranteed and leave everyone else out in the cold. seriously im disappointed.
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On February 22 2011 09:57 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 09:34 MuteZephyr wrote:
That's the only way it should be. The good players who have won lots of tournaments are the popular ones and the ones people want to watch the most. I don't want to watch a bunch of people who just managed to cheese their way into a spot.
You gotta work hard for this tournament, the way it should be. TLO is 4th. He's far from 4th in the world in actual skill, but he's so creative that he's popular. CatZ also is way higher than where he should be, as is Kiwikaki, QXC, Destiny, Demuslim, Dimaga... Overall, if they choose the players via voting it's going to be really unfair. TLO for instance isn't even in the top 16 imo but is creative, whereas there are players like Morrow that are less popular but who I'd still pick over many of those players any day of the week. That being said, still excited about this tournament. I still don't think that players should be chosen with voting, and that qualifiers should be ran. Everyone needs a chance, even if they aren't currently well-known.
What?
You are saying that there are players that should replace KiWiKaKi, qxc, and Dimaga?
The others I guess can be understood since they haven't had much tournament success (and destiny really just plain doesnt deserve a spot because of his fan base), but Kiwi, qxc, and dimaga are all insanely good players. They have shown that countless times in tournaments and have been at the top for a long time. I'd go so far as to say that Kiwi and qxc are without a doubt a couple of the best players in NA period, and DIMAGA has also shown he is a top zerg.
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On February 22 2011 10:00 avilo wrote:
Why do I have to force myself to be a politician to have a higher chance to qualify into this league, rather than the merits of my own play? That's not just for me either, there are TONS of amazing players right now, and the way this is obviously favors the ones that are already very well known.
Why do you look at it that way?
IF you're so good, if you join enough tourneys... I'm sure you can win a TLOpen. Top places in MLG... Just consider that your qualifier. Even if you may be better, watching "no names" generally isn't fun to watch, because you don't know much about them etc.
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3 votes for Jinro, 2 for Dimaga for me.
Gonna think about the rest.
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On February 22 2011 10:00 avilo wrote:
Why do I have to force myself to be a politician to have a higher chance to qualify into this league, rather than the merits of my own play? That's not just for me either, there are TONS of amazing players right now, and the way this is obviously favors the ones that are already very well known.
There are huge problems with GSL style qualifier tournaments as well. For example, ST.Bomber is supposed to be one of the best players in korea, but he lost to someone else who could easily beast through code A in the qualifier. If the best two players happen to be in the same part of the bracket, one of them won't get in.
Not to mention the fact that it's easy to cheese or 4 gate your way in through a qualifier tournament.
Or would you rather all 50 spots be based purely on incontrol and gretorp's personal opinions of who is good and who isn't? I think giving the community some input is much better than having it be purely invite-only, that's going to favor better-known players too but it will just play to the biases of a few people rather than let in the players who earn their fans.
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Can people stop complaining about people getting in through only votes when you actually have no idea if this is how it's going to go down?
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On February 22 2011 09:34 quiggy wrote:
Implying the most popular Players aren't the players we want to see play.
steven bonnell is top10 in votes..
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On February 22 2011 10:03 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 10:00 avilo wrote:
Why do I have to force myself to be a politician to have a higher chance to qualify into this league, rather than the merits of my own play? That's not just for me either, there are TONS of amazing players right now, and the way this is obviously favors the ones that are already very well known. Why do you look at it that way? IF you're so good, if you join enough tourneys... I'm sure you can win a TLOpen. Top places in MLG... Just consider that your qualifier. Even if you may be better, watching "no names" generally isn't fun to watch, because you don't know much about them etc.
dark horses are always fun., and one spot? why bother. It's a toss up.
there is almost no way for upstart players to get in this. Its very disappointing, you cant just have a huge 1000 man tourney for 1 spot. Its completely terrible. Look at the gsl.. there are many many spots open from qualifications every month. and some of the best players struggle just to qualify there. But this... i doubt even some of the best people in the league could "win" a 1000 man tourney for a spot.
+ being required to be in a team?
tt
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On February 22 2011 10:03 xAPOCALYPSEx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 09:57 Shikyo wrote:On February 22 2011 09:34 MuteZephyr wrote:
That's the only way it should be. The good players who have won lots of tournaments are the popular ones and the ones people want to watch the most. I don't want to watch a bunch of people who just managed to cheese their way into a spot.
You gotta work hard for this tournament, the way it should be. TLO is 4th. He's far from 4th in the world in actual skill, but he's so creative that he's popular. CatZ also is way higher than where he should be, as is Kiwikaki, QXC, Destiny, Demuslim, Dimaga... Overall, if they choose the players via voting it's going to be really unfair. TLO for instance isn't even in the top 16 imo but is creative, whereas there are players like Morrow that are less popular but who I'd still pick over many of those players any day of the week. That being said, still excited about this tournament. I still don't think that players should be chosen with voting, and that qualifiers should be ran. Everyone needs a chance, even if they aren't currently well-known. What? You are saying that there are players that should replace KiWiKaKi, qxc, and Dimaga? The others I guess can be understood since they haven't had much tournament success (and destiny really just plain doesnt deserve a spot because of his fan base), but Kiwi, qxc, and dimaga are all insanely good players. They have shown that countless times in tournaments and have been at the top for a long time. I'd go so far as to say that Kiwi and qxc are without a doubt a couple of the best players in NA period, and DIMAGA has also shown he is a top zerg.
Top NA players, maybe. Dimaga hasn't really accomplished anything recently, QXC has always been rather mediocre everywhere(And was only like top 16 in assembly), Kiwikaki is hit or miss yeah.
Still, there's numerous European players like Kas, Thorzain, Sjow, Brat_OK and so on and so on that are less known but I definitely wouldn't say they're less skilled.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On February 22 2011 09:59 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 09:57 Shikyo wrote:On February 22 2011 09:34 MuteZephyr wrote:
That's the only way it should be. The good players who have won lots of tournaments are the popular ones and the ones people want to watch the most. I don't want to watch a bunch of people who just managed to cheese their way into a spot.
You gotta work hard for this tournament, the way it should be. TLO is 4th. He's far from 4th in the world in actual skill, but he's so creative that he's popular. CatZ also is way higher than where he should be, as is Kiwikaki, QXC, Destiny, Demuslim, Dimaga... Overall, if they choose the players via voting it's going to be really unfair. TLO for instance isn't even in the top 16 but is creative, whereas there are players like Morrow that are less popular but who I'd still pick over many of those players any day of the week. That being said, still excited about this tournament. I still don't think that players should be chosen with voting, and that qualifiers should be ran. Everyone needs a chance, even if they aren't currently well-known. I would rather watch creative, interesting, and exciting play rather than see piqliq cannon rush his way to the top of the ladder. Or than see Morrow do the exact same build every single game. Being a boring but solid player is just that - boring but solid. They can go win open tournaments but they don't make for exciting TV.
The thing is, having the same players in every tournament also doesn't make for exciting TV. You need underdogs and darkhorses, you need to have uncertainty in a tournament for really exciting TV. That's the most important thing for me actually. You'll have great players in the tournament regardless if you invite them or have them qualify. The only difference is that roughly the same great players will take part if you invite the players based loosely on popularity, while a more diverse selection of great players will participate if you have them qualify on their own skills.
EDIT:
On February 22 2011 10:06 iNcontroL wrote:
The voting is a fun way to get involved and support your favorite players. It helps but by no means WHAT SO EVER decides who gets selected.
Please stop looking for ways to make this a bad thing.
Just to add, I have no problem with the voting thing. Like I said earlier, it's nice that you actually listen to the community and not just invite players you choose. Obviously you guys are not going to invite HD if his 400,000 subscribers vote for him, but by and large, it allows the community to participate in choosing the players.
My problem is with inviting almost all the players, regardless of the source of the invitations. You can't invite a "darkhorse." The only way a player will really be considered an darkhorse is if he unexpectedly manages to qualify on his own strength.
Someone mentioned the problem with open qualifiers using ST.Bomber as an example earlier. It might be difficult for players like ST.Bomber to qualify through a massive tournament, but it's even more difficult to get an invite without big leagues that have open qualifications. Take someone like MKP in GSL S2. If that was an invitational, he would not have qualified, and might never have gotten the popularity needed to get into the GSL.
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Where does it officially state that the NASL will definitively pick the top 49 vote-getters to participate in the league? I interpret the voting procedure as "increasing their chances" to be picked. That does not read, "the top vote-getters WILL get picked". All this does is give the organizers more data to look at than just tournament wins, tv appearances, clan war appearances, etc.
But I'm 100% sure we'll get this "technicality" answered soon.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
The voting is a fun way to get involved and support your favorite players. It helps but by no means WHAT SO EVER decides who gets selected.
Please stop looking for ways to make this a bad thing.
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On February 22 2011 10:04 strongandbig wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 10:00 avilo wrote:
Why do I have to force myself to be a politician to have a higher chance to qualify into this league, rather than the merits of my own play? That's not just for me either, there are TONS of amazing players right now, and the way this is obviously favors the ones that are already very well known. There are huge problems with GSL style qualifier tournaments as well. For example, ST.Bomber is supposed to be one of the best players in korea, but he lost to someone else who could easily beast through code A in the qualifier. If the best two players happen to be in the same part of the bracket, one of them won't get in. Not to mention the fact that it's easy to cheese or 4 gate your way in through a qualifier tournament. Or would you rather all 50 spots be based purely on incontrol and gretorp's personal opinions of who is good and who isn't? I think giving the community some input is much better than having it be purely invite-only, that's going to favor better-known players too but it will just play to the biases of a few people rather than let in the players who earn their fans.
Marineking was unknown outside of the ladder and then he beasted his way to the finals in season 2 of the GSL. Making the invites voting based ensures something like this will never happen.
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well they haven't said anything specific about how they gonna select the players yet, wait and see...
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with destiny in top10 above players WAY better than him... sure i'd definitly say it's just a populary contest... i owuldn't be surprised to see him make top3 in terms of votes his following is quite large
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On February 22 2011 10:06 iNcontroL wrote:
The voting is a fun way to get involved and support your favorite players. It helps but by no means WHAT SO EVER decides who gets selected.
Please stop looking for ways to make this a bad thing.
Quoting to make sure people read this.
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Guys please vote for CatZ.. even though I'm not a huge fan and I would never want to play like him I think he could still bring some interesting games to the table
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On February 22 2011 10:05 krews wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2011 09:34 quiggy wrote:
Implying the most popular Players aren't the players we want to see play. steven bonnell is top10 in votes..
oh god... no offense to destiny and his fans but seriously i dont want to watch a player i regularly beat on ladder play on the big stage... i cant imagine myself getting hyped for any match of his
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my only beef is that theres just one open quali... why not have 5 for each 10 man group. would be much better/fair in my opinion.
And i hope this goes well and does awesome 
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EPT
