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Let me tell you my experience so far as a newby player. I used to play starcraft back in 1999-2000 and I watch GSL. With real 1v1 playing, I only just finished my 12th game total.
The game I just had was protoss vs protoss. I got put into platinum and this guy is First in his gold division.
I scout his base and he has one gateway near his nexus, so I turn around and go back again around 1 minute later... He has 2 gasses and 1 sentry. At this time, I decide to make 4 gateways and just kill him. By the time I ran in with 8 stalkers and 4 zealots, he only had 3 sentries and 1 stalker...... Then he yells at me for cheesing him.
I'm so confused because I just made a lot of units and killed him. How is that cheese?
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I think cheese is going up against an unknown opponent with a all-in build and hoping you win.
However when you are playing against a player who you've watched play, or are in the middle of a series with, its not cheese. It's exploiting a player's weakness, and it is bullshit to call it cheese.
You don't have a pitcher throwing curve balls and hear the batter yell "You know I can't hit those!! This is God damn bullshit!! CHEESE!! CHEEEESSSE!!!!"
Its called thinking and planning if you have a problem with either one of those, you are indeed an idiot. Thats all there is to it.
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Alot of people don't even seem to know what cheese is. Lots of people called jinros bunkers "cheese" vs idra in gsl. How is it cheese? Jinro did not sacrifice anything.
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Gimme a break, it's ridiculous how easy effective cheese is in sc2 in compared to BW. (AS TERRAN ATLEAST.)
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On February 23 2011 15:10 Tomken wrote:
Gimme a break, it's ridiculous how easy effective cheese is in sc2 in compared to BW. (AS TERRAN ATLEAST.)
"as terran at least" LOL hillarious hearing that from a protoss, seeing as it doesn't really get easier than the 4gate 
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How about we be hard on people who loosely use the word cheese to describe basically 99% of the openings in SC2?
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Cheese is the necessary evil here, but the balance must be delicate. BitbyBit almost every game isn't my idea of balanced cheesing, but a baneling bust or proxy all in type strategy once every 5 games allows for some variation in play. Not to mention how exciting it is to see a talented player micro their ass off to hold a strong all in build.
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On February 23 2011 17:03 Healingproof wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 15:10 Tomken wrote:
Gimme a break, it's ridiculous how easy effective cheese is in sc2 in compared to BW. (AS TERRAN ATLEAST.) "as terran at least" LOL hillarious hearing that from a protoss, seeing as it doesn't really get easier than the 4gate
4gate isnt cheese.
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I think it's a fun aspect of the game. I like to 6 pool occasionally on ladder vs zerg or protoss just because it makes the game more dynamic and I feel comfortable enough in my play that even if it's not completely successful, I will come out ahead with my micro skills/decision making. Of course, it doesn't always work but I don't really see a 6 pool as all in as more of just forcing the game to get intense early.
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On February 23 2011 17:14 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 17:03 Healingproof wrote:On February 23 2011 15:10 Tomken wrote:
Gimme a break, it's ridiculous how easy effective cheese is in sc2 in compared to BW. (AS TERRAN ATLEAST.) "as terran at least" LOL hillarious hearing that from a protoss, seeing as it doesn't really get easier than the 4gate 4gate isnt cheese.
Isn't this arguing semantics? Cheese is an all-in strategy that has no real back up plan to it if the other person is able to hold it off an still have an economy. The real question is, are you stopping worker production or is it just pressure into an expand?
If we aren't talking about PvP, I would call the 4 gate a cheesy strategy. Cutting probes early to support 4 gates off 1 base against terran or zerg is auto loss if they hold it without any damage done to their economy.
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SC2 appears somewhat more favorable to surprise aggression for a few reasons.
1) Short rush distances on Blizzard maps
2) Warpgates (greater ability to all-in)
3) Strong air-to-ground units (forcing sufficient anti-air or death)
4) Inject larva stacking --> greater possible surges of units
5) Overlords don't detect
6) No uphill miss chance
Of course, there are also defensive factors, such as Force Field, buffed cannons, bunkers/crawlers that can be sold/relocated --> less drawback to overbuilding defense, Queens, creep speed bonus, easy perfect wall-ins.
In general I think people bitch too much about aggressive play; if it was good enough to kill you, either it's a legit play, or you're not playing legit. (And "you only won because I made mistakes" is an idiotic response to aggressive play since half the point of playing aggressively is to press the opponent into errors.)
As for 4 Warpgate, it always struck me as slightly suboptimal if you're not using it for extreme aggression (a 2-3 Warpgate build that builds additional units while Warp is researching ought to be more efficient, if you're following it with tech/expand rather than just units units units) but as long as you can force the opponent to stay up their ramp and build adequate units to defend, there's no reason you can't cut a round of production to tech/expand.
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It's more like TSL Rain cheesed his ways to finals. BitbyBit cheesed his way through his bracket eliminating potential players to compete higher. Cheese is gay imo
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On February 19 2011 08:58 nkr wrote:
To me it feels like the cheeses / all-ins are much more rewarding and less risky in sc2, compared to brood war.
Bingo.
Cheesing is extremely easy and not very technical in SC2.
Take a look at 4gate and compare it to something like bull-dogging.
Bull-dogging was rather technical and semi-tough to micro, and only worked on certain maps in certain positions.
SC2 cheese: Make 4 warpgates, make units, bum-rush your opponent.
That would be my guess why cheese is annoying now.
Literally cheeses and SC2 in all-in take no thought process to carry out, and the builds are extremely simple, and even easier to carry out due to stuff like mine rally etc.
So easy and so powerful, that's the main issue 
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I would call cheese
''A strategy that relies partially or wholly on you opponent not scouting it or not knowing the appropriate response to it, and has little to no follow up step.''
An all-in
''A strategy that has no follow up step''
I would call cheese a type of all-in (barring alot of damage done) but not all-in a type of cheese.
Things that invest alot and require damage done e.g iEchoic TvT opening, are not all-in.
Given that I would say that cheesing for the individual game is justified but not as a longterm trend. Cheesing improves a very limited set of skills.
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Cheesing on the ladder:
Honestly, I rage too every time I lose to a six-pool or something that can't be scouted with a 9-probe until it's too late. With the small maps that are available, and the chances of scouting the wrong position in a 4 player map, sometimes its impossible to hold off a cheesy build with standard play.
However, things such as 4gate or DT's or cloaked banshees off one base CAN be scouted. Say for example you're playing zerg, and the protoss has blocked off with a gate, a cyber, and a zealot, such that you can't get in. If you're scared of a 4 gate run an overlord in at around 4:30 mark at the edges and scout for the 3 other gateways.
Another example: Say you are terran and you're 1rack FE-ing. You saw 2 gases being taken by a probe slightly earlier than usual with your scouting scv. Scan at the 7:00 minute mark for some scouting information (that is usually the time for a dark shrine to be put up).
By learning build times for other races, then these "cheeses" or 1 base all in can be scouted and give you enough time to prepare. Not only that, it'll improve your gameplay as a player, so I think cheese happening on the ladder is a good thing.
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On February 23 2011 17:14 Mastermind wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 17:03 Healingproof wrote:On February 23 2011 15:10 Tomken wrote:
Gimme a break, it's ridiculous how easy effective cheese is in sc2 in compared to BW. (AS TERRAN ATLEAST.) "as terran at least" LOL hillarious hearing that from a protoss, seeing as it doesn't really get easier than the 4gate 4gate isnt cheese.
1base all-in. If 4gate isn't cheese, then scv/marine all-in isn't cheese either
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I really don't get it. I am still a newby so try to explain it to me..
For example, the marine scv rush you guys are talking about:
Let's say you are playing normally, but then you see an opening where if you sent all your units and your SCVs, you would have a 95% chance of winning. What is wrong with taking that chance? You won, but now the other player is mad that you cheesed. Shouldn't the other player be mad at himself/herself for not being able to defend it?
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On February 23 2011 21:35 nizz wrote:
I really don't get it. I am still a newby so try to explain it to me..
For example, the marine scv rush you guys are talking about:
Let's say you are playing normally, but then you see an opening where if you sent all your units and your SCVs, you would have a 95% chance of winning. What is wrong with taking that chance? You won, but now the other player is mad that you cheesed. Shouldn't the other player be mad at himself/herself for not being able to defend it?
The problem is that those kind of things don't make the game professional.
If there are strategies that are extremely easy to pull off and the chance of winning is still pretty high, even on pro level, this makes for a bad game if you want it to be played on a professional level.
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On February 23 2011 20:26 Healingproof wrote:Show nested quote +On February 23 2011 17:14 Mastermind wrote:On February 23 2011 17:03 Healingproof wrote:On February 23 2011 15:10 Tomken wrote:
Gimme a break, it's ridiculous how easy effective cheese is in sc2 in compared to BW. (AS TERRAN ATLEAST.) "as terran at least" LOL hillarious hearing that from a protoss, seeing as it doesn't really get easier than the 4gate 4gate isnt cheese. 1base all-in. If 4gate isn't cheese, then scv/marine all-in isn't cheese either
4 Gate isnt cheese, SCV/Marine ALL-IN is cheese (allin = every worker, not really scoutable).
You can easily transition out of a 4 Gate and be slightly behind or even, depending on what you are going to do. And 4 Gate isnt allin, at least most of em are not. If you do a Korean 4 Gate in PvP, well we can argue about that, but in general its easy scoutable and not really an all-in.
As much as i hate Mules, if you do an SCV/Marine ALL IN and it fails you have lost.
If you do a Push with some SCVs it isnt really cheese nor an allin, just a standard push, that at least every Zerg player has to know.
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I hate cheese in ladder scenarios because I don't really have consistent practice partners so I depend on the ladder. Cheese, win or lose, basically prevents me from practicing the things I'd like to practice, which is why it frustrates me so much. Granted, I know I need to find people to practice with, but the reality with my schedule is that the ladder is the best I can do a lot of the time.
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EPT
