I recently re-watched a video that I had forgotten about for years. The video shows Boxer doing one of the most famous rushes in SC history.
It's funny how history repeats itself. I don't think I need to point out the striking similarity to the SC2 version of the same rush, which we all call "cheese". (me included). Are we just jaded to creative, non-standard play? Remember how exited you were when you saw a bunker rush for the first time in broodwar? Or when you first saw a proxy gateway in someone's base? When Huk made a mothership at MLG, it was a "crazy" move just to please the fans, because we had already assumed we knew what "standard" play was for protoss. I feel like the broodwar scene was not as quick to rule out the use of certain units as the sc2 scene is. It's just a thought.
Maybe it's just cuz Boxer can do anything, and we won't call it cheese
I'm not so sure if I agree with that considering the Idra v Jinro series in the GSL. Idra cheesed on Jungle Basin, and I know a lot of people that thought it was pretty epic/awesome regardless of who held out. For me, I hate when people cheese because they simply can't play standard. That doesn't mean I hate cheese universally, just when it's used as a replacement for playing well. When a top pro cheeses in a match and executes it well, I'm pretty sure people enjoy it.
The reason we got so excited about it rather than angry is because of how RARE it was. But when you see it so often it's not that big of a deal and it is just flat out annoying.
People don't hate on popular players when they cheese because usually there cheese is amazing. Like when watching oGsMC doing his 2 voidray zealot rush he microed his voidrays so well that it was impressive. But there are non skilled cheese like Rain's Marine/SCV all in against nestea. There was really no micro in it and he cheesed out a player who was obviously better than him.
As long cheese takes skill to do I'm ok with it but anything like 4 gate or Marine/SCV all ins are just dumb cheeses that a three toed sloth could do.
There are more cheeses in sc2 as in Sc1, sc1 plays more of a macro game most of the time. Due to the large size of the maps cheese is also fairly ineffective and extremly risky most of the time. in SC2 its much more rewarding to do so. The reason that it everyone goes nuts when a BW player does cheese is because it does not happen often, while in SC2 it happens all the time. Cheese is also more exciting in BW due to the (flawed) AI, which means that holding of a cheese requires supreme micro sometimes, which players are applauded for.
Over time hopefully the amount of cheeses will decrease in sc2 as players go for a more macro oriented game.
From a guy who only got into BW because of SC2, I think the difference is 1) Bad players cheesing to get to a level they could not otherwise make it, and 2) The frequency of the strategies.
I think as SC2 becomes more refined a lot of the problems will iron out, and cheese will become what it should be, a suprise, tightly controlled and meticulously executed by top players who got to their position through solid mechanics and good strategy.
Cheese isn't bad, cheese is fine. Idra cheesing was the best thing ever both for us and for him. Being able to cheese, and cheesing sometimes is a good thing, without a doubt. Cheesing all the time or relying on cheesy builds/all-ins in order to be successful is not a good thing. The problem isn't cheese, it's how much cheese there is. Someone like BitByBitPrime is a problem, he all-ins and cheeses all the time. ActionJesuz seems to cheese "too much" as well.
But mixing up your play with cheese now and then, like Idra did with the cheese vs Jinro is a good tihng. It puts your opponent on edge, they never know what's coming, and shows you have a good repertoire of skills. Even Flash and Jaedong cheese (each other) in Starleague finals.
Admittedly I've gotten angry a few times, but I generally have no problem with cheese. It's a good way to mix your game up and it's by no means a guaranteed victory. I've always had the mindset of "if you lose to cheese it's your fault" and make sure to scout vigilantly and look for any tells the opponent may have.
Also, as a protoss player, I find knowledge of cheese builds pretty much essential for PvP.
And Yellow and Boxer both look like ballers. I think it's rare to see cheese at a progaming level, and because of that, the type of cheese that is played, requires TOP LEVEL execution, which makes it even more exciting.
On February 19 2011 08:57 Essentia wrote: The reason we got so excited about it rather than angry is because of how RARE it was. But when you see it so often it's not that big of a deal and it is just flat out annoying.
On February 19 2011 08:58 nkr wrote: To me it feels like the cheeses / all-ins are much more rewarding and less risky in sc2, compared to brood war.
Well said. It's a matter of frequency and risk involved for me as well.
I don't particularly dislike cheese but as it stands, whenever a player feels he isn't as good as his opponent or just isn't confident on a map, he makes the skill difference relatively null by forcing the game into a situation where he feels he has an advantage for a small portion of time and just goes for broke at that point.
The result is that we see less "real" games based on trying to win at any given time through superior play and strategy and more timing based games. If you paid attention, you could probably predict game lengths just based on who is playing. If you know who is probable to cheese, you know that the game will end around X minutes, win or lose, because that's when his attack is coming.
Overall, it makes the games less interesting and tense because for most of the matches where there's a heavy favourite, we see players taking this route.
I don't particularly respect cheese outside of doing multiple games with someone. When you're playing random ladder people and 6pool every 1v1 map outside of scrap station, you're not doing anything to improve your skills as a gamer.
That said, cheese is an important and awesome (jinro's 5hp marine) component of set-based play. It keeps you unpredictable.
i dont understand why people care so much about cheese... its a strategy and if you want to do it, go for it high pay off but very high risk
not everyone that cheeses is a low level player, many pros do it because it adds variety to their play-style and because they believe it will catch their opponent (who they have probably played multiple times on ladder or in tournaments) off guard.
however, many people rage at me when i cheese (more ragers than nonragers) which leads me to believe a large percentage of the sc community disapproves of these tactics
On February 19 2011 08:57 Antedelerium wrote: I'm not so sure if I agree with that considering the Idra v Jinro series in the GSL. Idra cheesed on Jungle Basin, and I know a lot of people that thought it was pretty epic/awesome regardless of who held out. For me, I hate when people cheese because they simply can't play standard. That doesn't mean I hate cheese universally, just when it's used as a replacement for playing well. When a top pro cheeses in a match and executes it well, I'm pretty sure people enjoy it.
Exactly. For myself, cheese is obnoxious on the ladder because there are a lot of players who use it as a crutch. I also think cheesing against a player you don't know is different than professionals who are playing in a series and know their opponent and that person's style. It's more defensible there given that it is a series and picking off a game cheesing doesn't mean it's over for the other person. In the 2008 OSL finals, Stork opened with cheese and won that game as well as the whole thing, but not before Fantasy nearly ggplay'd him. The fact that players use it to mess with the other guy and gain a psychological edge for the whole set makes it substantially more elegant than "Ima 9pool my way up the ladder".
I think in general people hate cheese on ladder, believing that their opponent knows only cheese and can't play for real, but I think that most people that cheese can still play a macro based game. It's also important to know at least a couple super cheese strats in case you find yourself in a bo7 or something, they can really help keep your opponent honest... no super fast crazy expo play, or crazy fast tech without making defense.
I also do a lot of proxy 2 gate in PvP, not because I don't feel that I can't win any other way, but with a war3 background I can usually out micro my opponent... so in this case the cheese allows me to dictate the gameplay to my strengths.
As people figure out the game more, we're already seeing way less cheese than in the first couple GSLs, I think that it will become rarer and rarer as people figure out the counters.
Cheese in BW just seems slower, like the time it takes between you scouting the cheese, and the cheese killing you is quite long and you get some time to deal with it, even as the cheese hits you and you aren't fully prepared you can hold it. In SC2 it just feels like you scout it when you die, and if you didn't gamble on that it's coming it's just over, you just die. Mostly scv-marine allins though but that will probably get a lot better with bigger maps as well, everything else is fine in my opinion. There's a difference between cheese and retarded cheese :p
There is a huge difference between cheese and "creative, nonstandard play."
"Creative, nonstandard play" can occur at any point in the game. It covers transitions, unit compositions, timing pushes, anything you can think of. Cheese covers a very specific period of time and exploits a set of advantages that generally have few counters. Ideally cheese should be a heavy risk/reward strategy, but some cheeses don't fall under this category.
Also consider that cheeses are "imbalanced" across the races. Zerg has a very limited set of options due to its mechanics (no proxy buildings except hatch, no spinecrawlers except against Z, wall-offs effective until muta), and becomes highly predictable. Terran and Protoss, not so much.
EPT
