EPTAre we too hard on cheese in SC2? - Page 2
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Lochat
United States270 Posts
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IamBach
United States1059 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6883 Posts
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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
On February 19 2011 08:57 Essentia wrote: The reason we got so excited about it rather than angry is because of how RARE it was. But when you see it so often it's not that big of a deal and it is just flat out annoying. I came here to post something similar, it's not that the builds themselves are annoying (even though they are) it's how often we see them that make them bad. Cheese vs normal play should be a nice balance of around 75-85% being standard, with those cheese games being an exciting micro slugfest in the middle. I also think the style of cheese plays a part, I like to see cheese where it's so incredibly on the edge the entire time for both players, where 1 wrong move is a loss, not where you know who will win instantly. I believe the saying is "It's cheese unless it's boxer doing it" or something along those lines, and that's because of the overall style he plays and his personality, I'd watch him cheese 90% of his games, because he makes it interesting, it will be builds you hadn't seen before, or new twists on those builds. Another example from SC2 was the hatchery cancel into baneling nest at natural, THAT is a fun to watch cheese the first few times. If it suddenly was used over and over for some reason, it would lose that appeal. | ||
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iggyzizzle
United States28 Posts
On February 19 2011 09:01 ThePieRate wrote: People don't hate on popular players when they cheese because usually there cheese is amazing. Like when watching oGsMC doing his 2 voidray zealot rush he microed his voidrays so well that it was impressive. But there are non skilled cheese like Rain's Marine/SCV all in against nestea. There was really no micro in it and he cheesed out a player who was obviously better than him. As long cheese takes skill to do I'm ok with it but anything like 4 gate or Marine/SCV all ins are just dumb cheeses that a three toed sloth could do. I feel that it takes a significant amount of skill to 4gate or Marine/SCV, especially at higher level play. People just know how to stop 4gates, making them pretty ineffective. Same with Marine/SCV. I don't 4gate very often, but when I do, it usually takes near perfect micro to pull of. | ||
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zev318
Canada4176 Posts
On February 19 2011 08:57 Antedelerium wrote: I'm not so sure if I agree with that considering the Idra v Jinro series in the GSL. Idra cheesed on Jungle Basin, and I know a lot of people that thought it was pretty epic/awesome regardless of who held out. For me, I hate when people cheese because they simply can't play standard. That doesn't mean I hate cheese universally, just when it's used as a replacement for playing well. When a top pro cheeses in a match and executes it well, I'm pretty sure people enjoy it. i agree with this. for example, someone like actionjesus, i just downloaded the games he played at assembly, its just nothing but cheese and allin. its good for a player to sprinkle in a few allin/cheeses here and there but when that's all u do, its really hard to watch. and you're not really going anywhere with just those 2 types of plays all the time. blows my mind how some people were so excited to see him play at assembly, even with his pre-tournament statement of "i have some secrets up my sleeves", there wasn't any doubt that it was all cheese. | ||
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endGame
United States394 Posts
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HowardRoark
1146 Posts
On February 19 2011 08:58 nkr wrote: To me it feels like the cheeses / all-ins are much more rewarding and less risky in sc2, compared to brood war. Exactly the point. Doing a Boxer in Starcraft 2 would be to actually play "standard". SC2 is deeply flawed in this aspect, since a Terran playing standard would mean a bigger risk of losing. What he (Boxer) pulled off here is the opposite of the Starcraft 2 equivalent, so you can not compare it at all. We all remember the classic Idra loss when he instantly spots the 4gate, and act accordingly to hold it off, but still fails miserably, because of how SC2 works. This was not the case in BW, since knowing it would come would nullify it completely (at this level). On February 19 2011 09:21 etheovermind wrote: Ok your missing the point I think. SCV marine control like BoxeR does in the video is not easy at all. Cheese in SC2 is annoying because it doesn't require skill. This. This. I wish I could express is as good as this post did. EDIT: Actually, comparing a Boxer rush to SC2 cheese should be bannable... EDIT 2: On February 19 2011 09:11 Caliber wrote: i dont understand why people care so much about cheese... its a strategy and if you want to do it, go for it high pay off but very high risk [...] Actually, no. There is not a very high risk. Playing standard punish you even harder. However, your quote stands true in BW, but maybe that was what you were referring to? | ||
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
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Treehead
999 Posts
I also, however, dislike use of the term "cheese". Here's why: people who like to rage about "cheesing" don't learn to make their builds solid against these builds because they refuse to accept these types of strats as legitimate. Then, they begin to ascribe the term "cheesing" to anything they don't know how to respond to instead of thinking about what their response should be. A 2-base play is not a cheese. A non-standard play that you've never seen before is not a cheese. Just because you don't know how to stop something (usually because you haven't considered it), doesn't make it easy or skillless to execute - and it sure as hell doesn't mean (as the definition of cheese we all so often forget states) that the rush you're faced with doesn't have a next step. You should be mad when you get cheesed and lose. You shouldn't be mad at your opponent, though, you should be mad at yourself. I personally believe that if you try to cheese on the ladder in 2 years, you're going to get shut down. It works now because we're terrible at this game. Dealing with it only makes you better. Personally, I don't hate the people who cheese their way into diamond. I feel sorry for them that they put so much time into a strat which in a matter of time (possibly years, but still...) won't be able to get you out of bronze. In the same amount of time, you could've just learned how to play the game. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
But then, when you cheese every fucking game, it's not only unentertaining but incredibly annoying. Im looking at you Bitbyebitprime | ||
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Dimagus
United States1004 Posts
There's also a huge difference between cheesing and reactive rushing. If you scout something irregular or that your opponent has a vulnerability window, taking advantage of that isn't cheesing. Either your opponent allowed you to scout it which was an error, or he was crossing his fingers and praying for random luck that you would go the wrong way and if you didn't it was an "I lose". Blame the opponent in those situations, not the rusher. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Another reason is. You play a sequel so you have seen this in bw already often enough ;p . The proxys are totally the same. (except the workers that is) concerning the ladders, if people don't want the matchup they cheese to end it quick. Thats reinforced due to every race in sc2 is imba except your race. So everything is the same as with bw. (except that i guess the skills units have are more thought through and that way unless blizzard intended it we won't see something like stasis on your own dragoons to block a ramp or radiated cloud of vessels flying over the zerg army its still there but way harder to use as it was in bw) | ||
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Mafs
Canada458 Posts
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confusedcrib
United States1306 Posts
2. Because SC2 is so unestablished, the best players so far are also unestablished, tomorrow iNcontroL could figure out that archons are the secret unit in PvP and that if you rush for two of them you can hold any PvP build, and all of a sudden iNcontroL is the best PvP player in the world. More on topic, even if Idra cheeses Jinro, it still feels more like a "rip off" than a risk. Boxer was an established best player with multiple wins under his belt, people knew he was the best, so when he cheeses it is extremely exciting to watch, because you have the feeling he could have won without it. If I say who is better Idra or Jinro? The answer should be that you have no fucking clue because it could all change tomorrow, and you still feel ripped off because it is difficult to tell who is the better player over the course of multiple 30 minute games, nevermind a 1 minute long micro fight. TL;DR: Perceived skill makes observers feel as though they are being robbed of watching a great macro game and in SC2 we have no idea what player's real skill is, making us feel even more robbed. | ||
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ROOTheognis
United States4482 Posts
It was alot riskier to do this in that game and I believe this was the first time i ever saw a successful scv rush in BW :O | ||
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krazymunky
United States727 Posts
I dont mind cheeses at all. except when its constantly done all the time. BitbyBit.Prime! If you dont scout the cheese/proxy...well then too bad. | ||
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waxypants
United States479 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
I hate 4gates... I hated playing as Zerg against T and P... What do these things have in common? They all require a disproportionate amount of skill to hold off than they require to execute. But I know, who cares about skill... This is SC2, not Broodwar... This game was SUPPOSED to be more noob friendly as evidenced by the macro mechanics, maps, easy wall-ins, mules and chronoboosts for faster all ins, over triple the gas on one base compared to BW, and the list goes on... I think the sooner we accept that SC2 is not and never will be broodwar, the better off we will be. | ||
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khazgore
Norway104 Posts
Still i think cheese is a little to strong especially in the protoss vs protoss matchup and P or T against Z. other matchups are fine in my opinion. as mentioned above the problem with cheese is that it takes so much more skill to defend against it than doing it. everyone can do the cheese and the differences from a pro player doing a cheese and a low master-high diamond doing a cheese isnt really that big as it would be in a macro game. the point is you can steal victorys you dont desverve by cheesing :D they should have given better defender advantage the only defender advantage now is The high ground ( in some situations it can even work against you ) your workers and the ability to instantely reinforce Another problem is that buildings that are supposed to be used defensively like bunkers and Photon cannons can be used so aggressively before your opponent even got a unit out. this only apply to zerg tho. watching Idras stream it seems like he got so many undeserved loses due to photon cannons- bunkers making him lose the game even at the slighest mistake. Also i have no idea why blizzard is so bad at balancing they arent listening enough to the players Forexample why Buff Phoenix buiilds that are already doing super good against zerg? | ||
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