Are we too hard on cheese in SC2? - Page 9

Severedevil

United States4838 Posts

February 23 2011 18:28 GMT

#161

On February 23 2011 21:35 nizz wrote:
I really don't get it. I am still a newby so try to explain it to me..

For example, the marine scv rush you guys are talking about:
Let's say you are playing normally, but then you see an opening where if you sent all your units and your SCVs, you would have a 95% chance of winning. What is wrong with taking that chance? You won, but now the other player is mad that you cheesed. Shouldn't the other player be mad at himself/herself for not being able to defend it?

I was in that position once in a CSL match. Close positions, lost temple, I'd opened 2 Rax Terran (12/14 rax into Orbital) and my opponent was a Protoss who was heavily chronoing his nexus, took both gases, and didn't start building any units until after his core completed, with no second gateway or forge.

...so instead of continuing my game plan, I pulled my workers and won immediately. (SCVs + five marines & 2 rax reinforcement >> probes + one stalker.) There was no 'cheese' involved; he'd scouted me first, saw 2 rax, and opened greedy anyway. So he died.

That said, when people blindly plan a ridiculously aggressive build and have no followup, it's kind of pathetic.

Rabiator

Germany3948 Posts

February 23 2011 18:50 GMT

#162

The problem isnt that the tactic is working and people win with it. The problem is that the tactic has "no Plan B" and no follow-up. You either win or lose it with that immediate fast cheese. This will NOT turn anyone into a better gamer, because of the missing follow-up or missing variation. The thing is that people are able to beat cheese if it gets spotted, but the cheesing player - on a ladder - will only lose and then cheese again next game instead of being a living being and evolving (learning to play better) from his own mistakes.
Stagnation is the issue for ladder games and boring to watch is the issue for tournament games (Boring because the game is over in five minutes instead of twenty AND because there is no tension due to cheese being unbeatable when not scouted early enough). Whoever wants to be mad should feel free to do so ... it is counterproductive in any case.

JBeuys

Brazil12 Posts

February 23 2011 20:25 GMT

#163

I see cheese under two completely different settings: in the pro-scene (tournaments) and in ladder games. I can completely understand cheesing in the pro-scene - people are playing for money, it's their job to win. So a player does what he thinks is necessary to win - simple enough. Still, this is frustrating to watch since we as espectators don't really have to care about X or Ys professional career, we are hoping for epic games (I see this as football matches - what was more exciting, Barcelona's title in 2009 or Internazionale's in 2010? Defensive football will many win games specially when it's done at the level Inter was doing it last year - perhaps some of the most impressive football in the last decade)

A completely differente situations arises in amateur games (most specifically the ladder). We aren't playing for money, recognition (I hope...) or anything else other than fun. We enjoy playing - but we enjoy it for different reasons: some people enjoy understanding the game and playing long games where where their understanding is tested vs. their opponents understanding; others enjoy winning. Most people lie somewhere in between the two, but a player who only cares about winning will have no problem cheesing as long as he percieves that's his best chance. The other kind of player will generally avoid cheese - not because he doesn't want to take the risk, but because he has no fun in it.

I don't think those of us who like long games should complain about cheese - just improve and learn to defend it - and even then we won't have fun (at least I don't) since the game was binary (defend vs. not defend) and had no long term planning/decision making to it.

Perhaps we should stick to chess.

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