EPTAre we too hard on cheese in SC2? - Page 7
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everynne
United States20 Posts
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Darkong
United Kingdom418 Posts
On February 20 2011 05:37 superstartran wrote: The reason why Cheese/All-in play is looked down upon because you can be a totally inferior opponent and still win. The point of E-Sports is that unlike real sports, the better player should win 99.9% of the time because the games should be designed in a way that the better player should win 99/100 times. In BW you can cheese once, and get away with it. In SC2 you can literally cheese / all in every time and make it to the best tournament in the world right now (BBB being the notable example of this). I don't know where you get that 99.9% thing from because it just doesn't work out like that. Flash, the best BW player in the world, has about a 70% win rate, and that's in a game where most of the cheese has been put to bed through better maps and build orders being so figured out. I know its possible in fighting games like Street Fighter but an RTS is a game of imperfect information, so an almost total winrate like that just never happens. There are two reasons, in my view, why the early rush is still so strong in SC2, its because there are lots of maps with short rush distances and because the 'standard play' is still being figured out. At this stage of the original Starcrafts life it was no different, I played back in those early days and it was cheesetastic, 4pools, marine-scv rushes and proxy gates left right and centre, once things were figured out the cheese builds became less and less common. Starcraft 2 will move beyond this, its already starting to do so, compare how many 1base rushes there were in the first two GSLs to the more recent ones, not to mention the difference map development will make. I think of this as SC2s growing pains, or maybe its adolescent times, it'll grow up then we'll look back on players like BitByBit and laugh about it, shaking our heads that this sort of play could actually succed at the pro level. | ||
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parn
France296 Posts
On February 20 2011 22:55 Darkong wrote: + Show Spoiler + On February 20 2011 05:37 superstartran wrote: The reason why Cheese/All-in play is looked down upon because you can be a totally inferior opponent and still win. The point of E-Sports is that unlike real sports, the better player should win 99.9% of the time because the games should be designed in a way that the better player should win 99/100 times. In BW you can cheese once, and get away with it. In SC2 you can literally cheese / all in every time and make it to the best tournament in the world right now (BBB being the notable example of this). I don't know where you get that 99.9% thing from because it just doesn't work out like that. Flash, the best BW player in the world, has about a 70% win rate, and that's in a game where most of the cheese has been put to bed through better maps and build orders being so figured out. I know its possible in fighting games like Street Fighter but an RTS is a game of imperfect information, so an almost total winrate like that just never happens. There are two reasons, in my view, why the early rush is still so strong in SC2, its because there are lots of maps with short rush distances and because the 'standard play' is still being figured out. At this stage of the original Starcrafts life it was no different, I played back in those early days and it was cheesetastic, 4pools, marine-scv rushes and proxy gates left right and centre, once things were figured out the cheese builds became less and less common. Starcraft 2 will move beyond this, its already starting to do so, compare how many 1base rushes there wree in the first two GSLs to the more recent ones, not to mention the difference map development will make. I think of this as SC2s growing pains, or maybe its adolescent times, it'll grow up then we'll look back on players like BitByBit and laugh about it, shaking our heads that this sort of play could actually succed at the pro level. Totally agree, let's wait, the game is still young, new strategies are coming, etc ... | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
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Noli
United Kingdom179 Posts
My recent ladder game have been all but 4 Terrans the 3 Toss cannon rushed and the zerg 6 pooled. It's just not fun to play at all. (Bronze in case that's not plainly obvious by the mass Terran.) On February 20 2011 23:33 synapse wrote: Cheese on ladder = bad. Cheese in BoX series as part of a mind game = good. This sums it up for me too. On February 20 2011 23:39 XenOsky- wrote: i'm pretty much ok with cheese if is used to win a series (you are 1-1 in a bo3 series and cheese the 3rd game).. but when a player's only strategy is cheesing is just stupid... Otherwise known as EU Bronze league. | ||
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Dhalphir
Australia1305 Posts
Things are already improving in this regard, there were VERY few 2base all-in strategies from anyone in the GSL team league games, and while there were still quite a few 1base strategies, they weren't so much cheese just solid 1base strategies. Overall, to answer your question about why a video of that strategy by BoxeR is popular and cheese in SC2 isn't is because cheese was much rarer in BW, so it was more interesting when it was done, just like long macro games are interesting right now because they are the rarity (for now) | ||
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Boraz
United States361 Posts
On February 19 2011 09:01 Kipsate wrote: There are more cheeses in sc2 as in Sc1, sc1 plays more of a macro game most of the time. Due to the large size of the maps cheese is also fairly ineffective and extremly risky most of the time. in SC2 its much more rewarding to do so. The reason that it everyone goes nuts when a BW player does cheese is because it does not happen often, while in SC2 it happens all the time. Cheese is also more exciting in BW due to the (flawed) AI, which means that holding of a cheese requires supreme micro sometimes, which players are applauded for. Over time hopefully the amount of cheeses will decrease in sc2 as players go for a more macro oriented game. Agreed. There are so many cheese builds in SC2 and so many people (especially bronze leaguers) use them. Hopefully they'll learn how to do a real build so we can have good games...not 5 minute games. | ||
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DerNebel
Denmark648 Posts
On February 21 2011 00:32 Boraz wrote: Agreed. There are so many cheese builds in SC2 and so many people (especially bronze leaguers) use them. Hopefully they'll learn how to do a real build so we can have good games...not 5 minute games. I like to think of it as a trial by fire. Like making it past the lowest tier of the BW ladder, you will have to learn to defend the cheese. And let's face it, 6pool can be beaten with worker micro and a 4gate hits around 6-7 minutes. You poke to see if the terran makes 2rax and keep a cout outside the base to see him pulling SCVs etc. In conclusion: Learning to defend cheese should not take long if you are dedicated to scouting and defending against the. It gets a bit more complicated later up the ranks, but there's a reason the players in the bronze league are where they are. | ||
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
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JustPlay
United States211 Posts
On February 20 2011 22:55 Darkong wrote: I think of this as SC2s growing pains, or maybe its adolescent times, it'll grow up then we'll look back on players like BitByBit and laugh about it, shaking our heads that this sort of play could actually succed at the pro level. Cheese will always be stronger in SC2 than BW as long as mining remains as it is now. The map solution won't work like it did for BW due to mining being saturation focused instead of expansion focused. See LaLush's thread. | ||
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betaflame
175 Posts
When a noob cheeses, its usually all they can do and they're not "mixing things up ", they're just plain out cheesing because thats all they know how to do, thats why people don't approve. | ||
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ddrddrddrddr
1344 Posts
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applejuice
307 Posts
On February 19 2011 09:06 mizU wrote: I think it's rare to see cheese at a progaming level gomtv.net passes are cheap, $10 I think. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On February 19 2011 08:57 Essentia wrote: The reason we got so excited about it rather than angry is because of how RARE it was. But when you see it so often it's not that big of a deal and it is just flat out annoying. Either you weren't around or you need to take off your nostalgia-tinted glasses. The strategies/metagame back then was way, way more volatile than they are in sc2 as of now. Standard wasn't anywhere near as established. It was boxer building bunkers in yellow's natural, three times in a row, and winning the finals. That's all there was to it, people were amazed at the unexpected play and some were pissed that the finals had been so short. | ||
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Raysalis
Malaysia1034 Posts
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Boraz
United States361 Posts
On February 21 2011 01:50 DerNebel wrote: I like to think of it as a trial by fire. Like making it past the lowest tier of the BW ladder, you will have to learn to defend the cheese. And let's face it, 6pool can be beaten with worker micro and a 4gate hits around 6-7 minutes. You poke to see if the terran makes 2rax and keep a cout outside the base to see him pulling SCVs etc. In conclusion: Learning to defend cheese should not take long if you are dedicated to scouting and defending against the. It gets a bit more complicated later up the ranks, but there's a reason the players in the bronze league are where they are. Oh I never lose to cheese now. I either have a few zealots out for 6 pool or if its marines I have some sentries and stalkers by the time he gets there. That's what's so funny. They get mad at me cause I don't lose to the cheese. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On February 21 2011 03:01 hifriend wrote: Either you weren't around or you need to take off your nostalgia-tinted glasses. The strategies/metagame back then was way, way more volatile than they are in sc2 as of now. Standard wasn't anywhere near as established. It was boxer building bunkers in yellow's natural, three times in a row, and winning the finals. That's all there was to it, people were amazed at the unexpected play and some were pissed that the finals had been so short. It was in a semifinal (EVER 2004), and Boxer apologized in his interview. It was bold, but most people were disappointed. Plus it was 2004, and then standard BO had already started to emerge. I was not there in 2001, but from the game I watched, there were not that many cheese games, at least in OSL and MSL finals. I haven't watched that many game from 2001, but I did not see that much cheese. For instance, in the Boxer vs YellOw there was one cheese game (which failed) in the Bo5. I'm pretty sure there was none in the Garimto vs Boxer one. Though one could note that bunker rush was used an often used opening, as it does not really set you that much behind to do 7-8 rax. If you kill 2-3 drones, you have equalized, and zerg did not micro well enough at that time to completely stop it. As for bw today, I think most people like cheese, as long as it's not a whole serie, and that it's not just an undeserving player getting lucky with BO. For instance, when Stork 4-gated Flash last week, most people liked it, even Flash fans : it was a pretty funny strat, seldom used, and well hidden from a solid player. Bottom line : there was probably more cheese a long time ago in bw, but not that much. I have no idea how much cheese there is in sc2 though, so you might have been right. | ||
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AlphaIIOmega
Canada29 Posts
On February 19 2011 09:01 ThePieRate wrote: People don't hate on popular players when they cheese because usually there cheese is amazing. Like when watching oGsMC doing his 2 voidray zealot rush he microed his voidrays so well that it was impressive. But there are non skilled cheese like Rain's Marine/SCV all in against nestea. There was really no micro in it and he cheesed out a player who was obviously better than him. As long cheese takes skill to do I'm ok with it but anything like 4 gate or Marine/SCV all ins are just dumb cheeses that a three toed sloth could do. Someone give this guy a medal. You basically said that perfectly, and exactly what I was going to write. Well done sir. And yea, when pro players cheese, they don't do stupid cheeses. They make up their own cheese that requires a lot of micro. IdrA actually only lost his jungle basin game vs jinro because he didn't micro well. He should have immediately moved to the SCV line and disrupted bunker production. He could have cut the marine off as it came out of the rax later. | ||
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Boraz
United States361 Posts
I have won like 7 in a row now...and have played a lot today. I keep beating silver/gold players...and am rank 1 in my bronze league. When I play silver/gold players it says "Even Match" and I even beat a plat that was "Slightly Favored" Why the heck isn't it moving me out of bronze. I am on a 7 win streak and have easily won like 20-25 today and only lost 3-5 User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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