Are we too hard on cheese in SC2? - Page 7

On February 20 2011 05:37 superstartran wrote:
The reason why Cheese/All-in play is looked down upon because you can be a totally inferior opponent and still win. The point of E-Sports is that unlike real sports, the better player should win 99.9% of the time because the games should be designed in a way that the better player should win 99/100 times. In BW you can cheese once, and get away with it. In SC2 you can literally cheese / all in every time and make it to the best tournament in the world right now (BBB being the notable example of this).

On February 20 2011 22:55 Darkong wrote:
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I don't know where you get that 99.9% thing from because it just doesn't work out like that. Flash, the best BW player in the world, has about a 70% win rate, and that's in a game where most of the cheese has been put to bed through better maps and build orders being so figured out. I know its possible in fighting games like Street Fighter but an RTS is a game of imperfect information, so an almost total winrate like that just never happens.

There are two reasons, in my view, why the early rush is still so strong in SC2, its because there are lots of maps with short rush distances and because the 'standard play' is still being figured out. At this stage of the original Starcrafts life it was no different, I played back in those early days and it was cheesetastic, 4pools, marine-scv rushes and proxy gates left right and centre, once things were figured out the cheese builds became less and less common.

Starcraft 2 will move beyond this, its already starting to do so, compare how many 1base rushes there wree in the first two GSLs to the more recent ones, not to mention the difference map development will make.

I think of this as SC2s growing pains, or maybe its adolescent times, it'll grow up then we'll look back on players like BitByBit and laugh about it, shaking our heads that this sort of play could actually succed at the pro level.

On February 20 2011 23:33 synapse wrote:
Cheese on ladder = bad. Cheese in BoX series as part of a mind game = good.

On February 20 2011 23:39 XenOsky- wrote:
i'm pretty much ok with cheese if is used to win a series (you are 1-1 in a bo3 series and cheese the 3rd game).. but when a player's only strategy is cheesing is just stupid...

On February 19 2011 09:01 Kipsate wrote:
There are more cheeses in sc2 as in Sc1, sc1 plays more of a macro game most of the time. Due to the large size of the maps cheese is also fairly ineffective and extremly risky most of the time. in SC2 its much more rewarding to do so. The reason that it everyone goes nuts when a BW player does cheese is because it does not happen often, while in SC2 it happens all the time.
Cheese is also more exciting in BW due to the (flawed) AI, which means that holding of a cheese requires supreme micro sometimes, which players are applauded for.

Over time hopefully the amount of cheeses will decrease in sc2 as players go for a more macro oriented game.

On February 21 2011 00:32 Boraz wrote:


Agreed. There are so many cheese builds in SC2 and so many people (especially bronze leaguers) use them.
Hopefully they'll learn how to do a real build so we can have good games...not 5 minute games.

On February 20 2011 22:55 Darkong wrote:
I think of this as SC2s growing pains, or maybe its adolescent times, it'll grow up then we'll look back on players like BitByBit and laugh about it, shaking our heads that this sort of play could actually succed at the pro level.

On February 19 2011 09:06 mizU wrote:

I think it's rare to see cheese at a progaming level

On February 19 2011 08:57 Essentia wrote:
The reason we got so excited about it rather than angry is because of how RARE it was. But when you see it so often it's not that big of a deal and it is just flat out annoying.

On February 21 2011 01:50 DerNebel wrote:

I like to think of it as a trial by fire. Like making it past the lowest tier of the BW ladder, you will have to learn to defend the cheese.

And let's face it, 6pool can be beaten with worker micro and a 4gate hits around 6-7 minutes. You poke to see if the terran makes 2rax and keep a cout outside the base to see him pulling SCVs etc.

In conclusion: Learning to defend cheese should not take long if you are dedicated to scouting and defending against the. It gets a bit more complicated later up the ranks, but there's a reason the players in the bronze league are where they are.

On February 21 2011 03:01 hifriend wrote:

Either you weren't around or you need to take off your nostalgia-tinted glasses.

The strategies/metagame back then was way, way more volatile than they are in sc2 as of now. Standard wasn't anywhere near as established. It was boxer building bunkers in yellow's natural, three times in a row, and winning the finals. That's all there was to it, people were amazed at the unexpected play and some were pissed that the finals had been so short.

On February 19 2011 09:01 ThePieRate wrote:
People don't hate on popular players when they cheese because usually there cheese is amazing. Like when watching oGsMC doing his 2 voidray zealot rush he microed his voidrays so well that it was impressive. But there are non skilled cheese like Rain's Marine/SCV all in against nestea. There was really no micro in it and he cheesed out a player who was obviously better than him.

As long cheese takes skill to do I'm ok with it but anything like 4 gate or Marine/SCV all ins are just dumb cheeses that a three toed sloth could do.