EPTas others have mentioned, the response in this thread should be enough to prove my point.
Are we too hard on cheese in SC2? - Page 5
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megagoten
318 Posts
as others have mentioned, the response in this thread should be enough to prove my point. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On February 19 2011 14:47 megagoten wrote: TL is too close minded to embrace cheese as i feel they should. as others have mentioned, the response in this thread should be enough to prove my point. From what I've read, most people are saying that all-in one base timings are OK in moderation, but become annoying and boring to watch when they're the basis of a players play. Maybe you like to watch a player who only 6 pools or 4 gates, but most people don't. It's fine to say that you don't want to see something all the time. For instance, I'm sure most people love pizza, but ask a pizza shop employee who eats pizza every day if he likes pizza and 9/10 he'll tell you no, because that food he once loved is becoming boring. Same thing if you ask a person who works at a dairy queen. That's what these plays should be in my eyes, a special treat that happens every once in a while, not the basis of your in-game "diet". | ||
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NoobieOne
United States1183 Posts
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
On February 19 2011 14:47 megagoten wrote: TL is too close minded to embrace cheese as i feel they should. as others have mentioned, the response in this thread should be enough to prove my point. wat read your post you sound mighty close-minded in that everyone should believe what you believe | ||
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W2
United States1177 Posts
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Shockk
Germany2269 Posts
Most people can't even agree on what cheese actually is, which strategies are included and when cheese stops and "real" play starts. There's a simple reason for that: Cheese isn't a strategy. Cheese is a psychological defense mechanism players use when losing and unwilling to accept it. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
This said I think there are some great games out there where people cheesed and the defender won in a long and epic micro fight, but these are very far and few between. Most of the time it works or doesnt work and it is quite clear from the beginning so there is no tension in the game. Consider this: How would you feel if a Hockey / Basketball / Football match only lasted until the first goal? Would you be happy if it was over after five minutes? On February 19 2011 14:47 megagoten wrote: TL is too close minded to embrace cheese as i feel they should. as others have mentioned, the response in this thread should be enough to prove my point. I have given you my reasons why cheese is bad, could you give me your reason why it is supposed to be good? Simply because I dont like being called close minded for having an opinion. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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TRAP[yoo]
Hungary6026 Posts
dunno why it is like that... | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:29 Wolf wrote: I think most people who complain about cheese in SC2 are actually complaining about normal builds. Interesting point, but I would like a more detailed explanation why you are saying that and what you mean by it. Are you saing that people are declaring things as cheese which are part of "normal builds" or what? | ||
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TekKpriest
308 Posts
On February 19 2011 13:18 krazymunky wrote: oops my mistake. not 6 pools. more like rush builds watch game 1 it was a 4-6 pool  | ||
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Sanski
United States57 Posts
yes it sucks and annoying when someone cheeses me, esp. when i lose consecutive games to cheese. But still, i don't begrudge the people doing it. It's all part of the game. On the tournament level, the amount of bs/hate heaped on players with cheesy reps (TSL_Rain?) just doesn't compute for me. People gotta keep in mind that pros have their own styles and some would not hesitate to use certain strategies if they think they have a pretty good chance of winning a game/match/series. | ||
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superstartran
United States4013 Posts
The way SC2 maps are designed though (along with the macro mechanics) is that it really hurts people trying to play "standard" macro play because there are too many variations of cheese/all-ins that are too hard to defend against (because many of them look exactly the same). Not to mention for some odd reason you can even transition out of those cheeses even if they are defended. This was never the case in BW; if your BBS got stopped, you were dead. Period. | ||
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
On February 20 2011 05:37 superstartran wrote: The reason why Cheese/All-in play is looked down upon because you can be a totally inferior opponent and still win. The point of E-Sports is that unlike real sports, the better player should win 99.9% of the time because the games should be designed in a way that the better player should win 99/100 times. In BW you can cheese once, and get away with it. In SC2 you can literally cheese / all in every time and make it to the best tournament in the world right now (BBB being the notable example of this). The way SC2 maps are designed though (along with the macro mechanics) is that it really hurts people trying to play "standard" macro play because there are too many variations of cheese/all-ins that are too hard to defend against (because many of them look exactly the same). Not to mention for some odd reason you can even transition out of those cheeses even if they are defended. This was never the case in BW; if your BBS got stopped, you were dead. Period. WELL PUT good sir | ||
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zhr
Finland12 Posts
On February 20 2011 05:37 superstartran wrote: The reason why Cheese/All-in play is looked down upon because you can be a totally inferior opponent and still win. Are you a totally inferior opponent if you still have chances to win the match? No you are not. Players should do whatever they think gives them the best chances to win. I think people need to be less hard on "cheesy" players, and blame blizzard instead if they think there is imbalance. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Using cheese sometimes in tournaments or ladder is a great way to keep people honest. Instead of getting mad at cheesing opponents, players should get mad at themselves. | ||
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Pandain
United States12984 Posts
There are people who get to masters through pure 4 gating. There are people who get to masters through dts, through void rays, through 2 rax all ins, through 6 pools, through the variety of all ins/cheese that exist. In Brood War you would never see someone who got to the high level based on pure cheese/allins. That is why when someone does do it, it's exciting. | ||
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Cow
Canada1104 Posts
Alternatively, I feel actually cheesing in ladder is rather pointless to some extent. The fact that cheese exists and can happen occasionally has the same effect on many players as cheese would in a tournament (keeping people honest, and punishing those who aren't). This is fantastic, as it ensures people have to scout well, and be prepared to handle situations they usually don't have to face. However, cheese gets annoying if you start running into it more often then 1/10 games. Additionally, you do run into some players who cheese every single game, and that's just an unfortunate decision on their part. | ||
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
On February 19 2011 17:31 Rabiator wrote: Interesting point, but I would like a more detailed explanation why you are saying that and what you mean by it. Are you saing that people are declaring things as cheese which are part of "normal builds" or what? For example, a two barracks opening on Xel'Naga Caverns where a Terran brings two or three SCVs to attempt to bunker. That's not a cheese build. That's a standard opening. Or on the same map, if a Protoss proxies a gateway in the back of the Terran's base, that's also a standard opening. It's meant to do damage. Sure, it's risky, but it's a normal build that's risky. Like going for a gas-less expand as Terran is risky. It's standard though. It's not cheese. Cheese is an all-in attack that if it fails, there is no coming back. For example, pulling ALL SCVs in a two barracks opener and hoping to end the game immediately. There's no recovery there. Or proxying two gateways against a Protoss player; there's hardly any way to recover. A six pool is almost impossible to recover from also, but it's borderline not cheese because if you do enough damage, you can transition. A six pool pulling all workers is cheese. Understand my meaning? | ||
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SlapMySalami
United States1060 Posts
On February 20 2011 06:39 zhr wrote: Are you a totally inferior opponent if you still have chances to win the match? No you are not. Players should do whatever they think gives them the best chances to win. I think people need to be less hard on "cheesy" players, and blame blizzard instead if they think there is imbalance. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Using cheese sometimes in tournaments or ladder is a great way to keep people honest. Instead of getting mad at cheesing opponents, players should get mad at themselves. actionjesuz? he is totally inferior to every opponent he has ever played | ||
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KWest
United States59 Posts
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