EPTAre we too hard on cheese in SC2? - Page 3
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Honeybadger
United States821 Posts
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On February 19 2011 09:14 Ighox wrote: Cheese in BW just seems slower, like the time it takes between you scouting the cheese, and the cheese killing you is quite long and you get some time to deal with it, even as the cheese hits you and you aren't fully prepared you can hold it. In SC2 it just feels like you scout it when you die, and if you didn't gamble on that it's coming it's just over, you just die. Mostly scv-marine allins though but that will probably get a lot better with bigger maps as well, everything else is fine in my opinion. There's a difference between cheese and retarded cheese :p Not to mention micro seems to be more effective in BW than in SC2. Just something i notice, When i played BW i was under the influence that you could come out ontop of a situation with sick micro almost always. But in sc2 when someone comes in with a counter or a strong push you didn't prepare exactly for the game is pretty much over. | ||
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
================================================== Amount i see/saw in Starcraft 1 professional matches: ========= it's all relative people... | ||
undyinglight
United States611 Posts
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On February 19 2011 10:03 krazymunky wrote: When Julyzerg 6 pooled Best during an OSL final twice. that was crazy exciting + Bisu's face lol July didn't 6pool even once that series. :/ | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
1) The risk/reward of such a strategy is skewed because of macro mechanics. If you did a marine/SCV rush in BW, you couldn't sustain that push, it was one and done. If you didn't pull it off, you lost. In star2 we have mules. Terran players are finding more ways to pull SCV's and win every day. Protoss are transitioning out of 4 gate without dealing a ton of damage and winning, zergs are being crazy aggressive with roach/ling and still being able to support a good economy. 2) It's a reliable way to win, thus popular. We see high masters players in all regions who only 4 gate, or 3 rax, or 6 pool, etc. Even some pros rely primarily on 1 base all-in timings, like ActionJezus, BitByBit, and a few more. It feels odd to know that there are players who win most of their games in wins by the 7 minute mark, who would crumble if they had to play a stretched out game. I'd say that a good 65%+ ladder games are 1 base timing attacks. I would venture to say that, especially in most matchups, these 1 base timings are, in fact, standard, not macro games. 3) As a player, I think that it's just so ANNOYING trying to play a macro game on ladder. As a zerg player in particular, 4 gate is so hard to manage because the standard play looks exactly like a 4 gate. A player could want to 3 gate expand, and at the last minute say fuck it, throw in another gate and go for it. There are certain tells, but none of them are definite. A terran player will probably 2 rax me 75% of the time, and on a whim can decide to just bring all his SCV's. All-in-all, I feel that the problem with all-in one base plays at the moment is that there really is very little risk (unless you 6 pool, or proxy gate, it's hard to transition out of those) and as a result, the plays have become so popular that they are becoming the norm. As a result, we're seeing less of the cool drawn out strategies that result in cool timings and strategies that we saw in BW that allot of people saw as the exciting plays. | ||
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chenchen
United States1136 Posts
This is 2011, when people understand macro, timing, how to play the game to its fullest . . . | ||
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mprs
Canada2933 Posts
On February 19 2011 08:57 Essentia wrote: The reason we got so excited about it rather than angry is because of how RARE it was. But when you see it so often it's not that big of a deal and it is just flat out annoying. we saw little of it back then because there weren't $80,000 1st prize tournaments, and the strategy was more unstable than it is now. What goes on now is the following: 1) I want to win this tournament 2) My opponent is better than me 3) The longer the game goes on, the less chance I win 4) I should put all my eggs in one basket and try to win immediately. I think if anything, that logical conclusion was not common among players. It is only after people got an understanding of the game that they realized this. Of course, in BW, by that time, people were so good that they were beyond poorly-constructed cheese. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
Having a cheese as a "surprise plan" is good, I still remember Kiwikaki's cannon rush on MLG DC which made me totally amazed by his unit control. | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
On February 19 2011 09:14 Ighox wrote: Cheese in BW just seems slower, like the time it takes between you scouting the cheese, and the cheese killing you is quite long and you get some time to deal with it, even as the cheese hits you and you aren't fully prepared you can hold it. In SC2 it just feels like you scout it when you die, and if you didn't gamble on that it's coming it's just over, you just die. Mostly scv-marine allins though but that will probably get a lot better with bigger maps as well, everything else is fine in my opinion. There's a difference between cheese and retarded cheese :p Actually cheese in bw usually gave you a win before the 5min mark just as everything I regard as cheese in sc2. Then alot of people call attacks hitting even after 5min cheese but then it's a timing attack and nothing else. Played a 3v3 a couple of days ago and we entered some guys base at the 6min mark and he started some rant about cheese. The annoying thing in sc2 is as you said you can scout it and you are like, well meh, too bad. Like when I played close position on meta and had an ovvie outside his base, saw him move out, so I started to place crawlers but he was in my main right before they popped. | ||
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Kammalleri
Canada613 Posts
Cheese in tournament is needed in some way because if you play too standard all the time you can be exploited so much easier than if you have a few tricks in your sleeve. Where I don't understand cheese it's on the ladder at every level except master. I can understand if you're on a pretty bad streak and you want to snap out of it and just playing straight macro game won't cut it. Go ahead and cheese, but getting in diamond because all you do is cheese is just wasting your time I think. What;s the point of being in diamond if you belong in bronze skill wise? At some point you'll try to get better and realize that you wasted so much time just getting into diamond for basically nothing. One of the problem of Sc2 and there's nothing you can do about it is a lot of players come from BW where standards were set a long time ago, where people figured out how to stop most cheese and people are more comfy playing macro games. There's nothing like that in Sc2 yet. People are still trying to figure out a lot of stuff and patches coming out affect the game almost every month. There's already a huge improvement from GSL 1 to now and it's not even close as far as game quality and it's only what like 6 months since? It just takes time, but Sc2 will get at a point where cheese isn't as effective and popular and the games will be amazing. | ||
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Sava90
Denmark144 Posts
I dont understand how people can get offended if they get cheesed. | ||
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da_head
Canada3350 Posts
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Mr.Minionman
United States164 Posts
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
who would have thought of Idra going for a cheese vs Jinro in that BOX?? we all know how he(idra) despised cheesing right? | ||
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Kantutan
Canada1319 Posts
On February 19 2011 10:30 Keitzer wrote: Amount of Cheese i see in Starcraft 2 professional matches: ================================================== Amount i see/saw in Starcraft 1 professional matches: ========= it's all relative people... Yep, this right here. See an SCV/marine all-in the first time? Holy shit what just happened, brilliant win. See it every game after that? Mix it up a little... | ||
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Louuster
Canada2869 Posts
How about this one? I wonder what the reaction would be if this happened in the gsl | ||
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Mentalizor
Denmark1596 Posts
A cheese is just investing in a single attack. It will either win you the game, or swing you OR the opponent into a favored position. This is nowhere any different from a 200/200 army on 3 bases. At SOME point you need to commit. And yes, most likely it will be inferior players cheesing - or the favourites cheesing to catch their opponents offguard. But to me, cheese is fair, allowed and will most of the time be easier to defend than execute (not talking marine-scv-a-move all in here). And as a spectator, I'm already watching 10+ macro games everyday, learning how to get the correct unit composition, timings and rough BO's... I'm more interested in seeing cheese honestly. If not counting BitByBit, there's ALOT more macro (or timing push) based games than cheese. And on ladder - even in masters - I still face alot of cheese. It's part of the game. Obviously you're supposed to deal with it, rather than argueing why it's bad. | ||
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Mwentworth56
146 Posts
I think people are just mad that there getting there arse handed to them by somone who decided to play how he wanted and not play standard like some may feel they have to. plus cheese can be fun, and if you somhow know your oppenant and how they play you can somtimes catch them off guard for a win. | ||
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
It's a strategy game. The only rules are that you do whatever you can to win. Simple. P.S - People hate cheese because: 1. They lose to it and don't know how to deal with cheese 2. They're too chicken to try it themselves | ||
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