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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
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On February 03 2011 15:04 Kamikiri wrote:
For those of you who dont know Artosis has been protoss for quite some time now, and he is really high up the ladder he knows what hes talking about for protoss as well as zerg, hes not biased.
As for the show, I really love the show and i enjoy it greatly, very well put together and its not just screaming somethings imba its discussing it in a well mannered way.
I think it would add alot to the show if they had guests on the show when tackling tough subjects, though idra and artosis are both very smart and could cover most things on thier own.
How can he not be biased when he made the switch in the first place? People don't just switch race for fun and giggles unless they are TLO. Another person that came to mind is Morrow and he swapped for competitive reason.
If you watched the GSL at all, you would know that Artosis believes that zerg is underpowered which would makes sense why he made the switch aka he is biased for zerg.
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On February 03 2011 14:54 Sworn wrote:
Dislike to the fullest In my opinion it's a show that is extremely bias. It's two zergs talking about troubles they have.. Im sorry I can't take it seriously without a solid arguement which would require a protoss/terran player to show counter points.
Protoss is sad
User was warned for this post
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I like the discussion.
However, I fail to see how vikings are better against colossi than corruptors. I find the opposite to be true.
Roach/Hydra also pwns gateway units harder than bio pwns gateway units.
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On February 03 2011 14:43 Kazzabiss wrote:
I always play against a friend, we both play every race, we play all the time
I never win
ever
But today, I won the first game against him ever, PvT and I went Colosus... nuff said
xD
winning 1 game means collosus are op? right....
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On February 03 2011 15:07 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 15:04 Kamikiri wrote:
For those of you who dont know Artosis has been protoss for quite some time now, and he is really high up the ladder he knows what hes talking about for protoss as well as zerg, hes not biased.
As for the show, I really love the show and i enjoy it greatly, very well put together and its not just screaming somethings imba its discussing it in a well mannered way.
I think it would add alot to the show if they had guests on the show when tackling tough subjects, though idra and artosis are both very smart and could cover most things on thier own. How can he not be biased when he made the switch in the first place? People don't just switch race for fun and giggles unless they are TLO. Another person that came to mind is Morrow and he swapped for competitive reason. If you watched the GSL at all, you would know that Artosis believes that zerg is underpowered which would makes sense why he made the switch aka he is biased for zerg.
Artosis switched to Protoss because he found Zerg very frustrating to play, it wasn't really a big competitive decision. Artosis makes an easier and better living as a commentator with GOM than he would as a pro gamer, but he decided to switch to Protoss because it would both help his knowledge of the game and Zerg is a frustrating and difficult race to play casually.
Trust me, playing Zerg will make you old and bitter quickly.
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I PMed Artosis that he should do the infestor for his next show. It hasn't gotten much play in the last GSL, and hasn't been exploited to it's full potential yet. But is this potential too situational for the unit to be used? That is what I want to know.
I also suggested TLO come on the show with a hydra infestor game against a good terran to help his debate.
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On February 03 2011 15:08 link0 wrote:
I like the discussion.
However, I fail to see how vikings are better against colossi than corruptors. I think the opposite is true.
Roach/Hydra also pwns gateway units harder than bio pwns gateway units.
No, bio melts gateway units, roach hydra relies on numbers.
Vikings also are better vs colossi because of reactors and 9 range compared to corrupters.
I liked this discussion. As a protoss player, I definitely agree that the Colossi is too strong in huge numbers and is really tough on zerg. I just wish there was a way to fix this without hurting PvT too much.
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I don't know why people are complaining that they really only focus on Zerg.
If they were talking about TvP or TvT, I would be pissed off since they wouldn't have a clue.
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The quick mention of the reaper (may they rest in peace) nerf as a "slight nerf" just set the pace of this introduction. There were three nerfs to the reaper, and the first one was enough to heavily reduce it's usage, and the second and third made it completely obsolete apart from scouting.
Collosus and high templar are the only protoss units in the game that actually have the potential to be cost effective against zerg.
Zealots, stalkers, sentries, immortals, void rays and all that get completely smashed by hydras. It's basically PvT without templars or collosus, against higher ranged units, that not only beat yours in a straight up fight, but also can remax instantly. A hydra is cheaper and better than a stalker, and Zergs are always ahead in econ.. Nerfing the collosus would be detrimental.
PvZ is as much revolving around collosi as it is around hydras.
Also saying that Artosis has no bias is probably not true, as he's actually only been saying stuff like "4-gating is really easy, I know what I'm talking about because I'm playing protoss now".
It even more shows the bias talking about the hydra as super slow off creep, but the collosus as a super fast unit when they have the exact same move speed off creep..
If you want to nerf the colosus, you have to make the gateway units halfway decent (atleast cost effective, considering less economy) against zerg, but then you'll have a pretty beastly 4 gate against you instead.
Personally I think the zergs need a better composition, and better engagement tactics.
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I'm not sure if nerfing the Colossus is a good idea. The thing is, Protoss as a race right now functions around a few very powerful and expensive (but fragile) units (mainly Colossi, HT, Void Rays, more questionably Immortals) and a lot of weaker WG units to back them up. Nerf Colossi too much, and it would fall back on the WG units again...which could really gut Protoss as a race. But buffing WG units is really hard to do just because of how quickly they can be produced everywhere on the map.
It seems to me that if the only problem is with PvZ (and as Artosis said, PvT is balanced this way and PvP is developing greatly with VRs, etc), then a buff to Corruptors would be a much better idea. It seems like Corruptors need a buff anyway, as they're so rarely seen or used even though having a strong AtA unit would be so helpful for Zerg in so many situations. I don't know, what do you guys think?
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On February 03 2011 15:18 Captain Peabody wrote:
I'm not sure if nerfing the Colossus is a good idea. The thing is, Protoss as a race right now functions around a few very powerful and expensive (but fragile) units (mainly Colossi, HT, Void Rays, more questionably Immortals) and a lot of weaker WG units to back them up. Nerf Colossi too much, and it would fall back on the WG units again...which could really gut Protoss as a race. But buffing WG units is really hard to do just because of how quickly they can be produced everywhere on the map.
It seems to me that if the only problem is with PvZ (and as Artosis said, PvT is balanced this way and PvP is developing greatly with VRs, etc), then a buff to Corruptors would be a much better idea. It seems like Corruptors need a buff anyway, as they're so rarely seen or used even though having a strong AtA unit would be so helpful for Zerg in so many situations. I don't know, what do you guys think?
I see them in pretty much every PvZ when the P goes collosus. "rarely used" is stretching it.
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Was anyone else expecting this to be something like this?
Artosis: So a common complaint is X unit is imbalanced for Y reason, what do you think Idra?
Idra: OMGFUCKITALLZERGUP
Artosis: ^_^
Idra: *head asplodes*
Really digging the show, fun to watch, informative, and pretty well put together. Can't wait for the next one.
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On February 03 2011 14:25 RedMorning wrote:
Im interesting in the blings too. 99% of the time I lose to Z, its because they 1a with blings.
Not sure why people on a non-pro level call T OP in that matchup...clearly I'm missing something.
Ditto. Usually, there's a flavor of the month timing push by terran which knocks out some good zerg players early on. Within a month or 2, that timing push is broken apart and the zerg finds a way to either break even with the terran or come out ahead.
Anyways, it takes bit longer than 1 month to get your mindset from one race into another. When I switched from P to T, it took me 3 months before I naturally thought in terms of T.
All that being said, this show seems very zerg centric. Even looking at the video a 2nd time, they go on about Zv Colossus for ~12 minutes of a 30 minute program. I'm interested in seeing what all races have issues with, but to say the show is about colossus and spend only 3 minutes of it on TvP seems off. I like the idea of the show, but I think if you guys could spend more time evenly it would bring validity to the show. It would also help if you had some dedicated protoss and terrans on it to discuss the other side. At least have an advocate for the unit in discussion.
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Enjoyed the show, looking forward to seeing more episodes.
Just make sure to keep the format like this show rather than a bitch fest. I really liked how much the show included suggestions about how the matchup could possibly change and what players might do to work around the issue.
I'm also glad that they talk not just about racial win %s, but about the health of the game. My personal opinion on the colossi has always been that I don't know if it's imbalanced, but I do know that it's bad design to have such a central unit. All three Protoss matchups revolve around the colossi and that's just not right.
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The best thing about this show is it gives me zero reason to ever want to actually read a thread such as this one. That said, the show can and i think should definitely be improved so as to solidify its position as a one stop shop for people like myself who hate (as Day[9] said it, paraphrasing) "people wanting to be 'right' on an internet forum".
You definitely need more contrasting views in the sense that there will be, by default, the perception of zerg bias. Sure that's a response from the lowest common denominator of forum poster, but you can solve this by having guests of other races. A wet dream of mine would be MC as a guest - his English is almost good enough you won't even need John! I'm reluctant to want just any guest on. I respect Idra's opinion more than any other - his results speak for himself, so i'd want someone of that ilk. A Jinro would be perfect. Need a Huk or TLO or Whitera or someone to step up and prove they're on that level too and represent the Protoss.
Someone suggested replay analysis. Definitely a good idea for illustrating an example. I'd also like to see, in this case for example, potential solutions investigated further. It doesn't sit well with me that this could be the end of the discussion on the Colossus. I want to see rebuttals from people whose opinions matter where possible. I also want to see builds that could counter it explored. Do a follow up show with some examples like the Infestor builds mentioned. I'm curious to see how they'd go. And not a full replay analysis - that's time consuming and excessive. But a highlights package showing why something did or didn't work just to illustrate the point better with something closer to hard evidence.
Just some thoughts there. Love the show. Can't wait for the next episode.
(need a cheesy theme song btw imo lol)
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There must be some pissed off pro gamers out there to have two that are willing to risk flame wars of epic proportions to come out and make the claim that certain units might be imbalanced. I do appreciate that they're doing this though, biased or not. Nowadays it seems like people don't want to hear about imbalanced and just respond "qq", which is so very unhealthy for the future of starcraft.
Some responses to things people said before me:
Corruptor is worse mostly because of their range. Another major component is that after killing the collosus they're entirely worthless because unlike viking they cannot attack ground. Combine these two and it means how many you have is hard to manage. Too many and it's equivalent to wasting resources. Too little and your ground army melts.
If you feel that Artosis is a traitor for switching to PvZ and then use it for credential, well, how else would you have the credential for both sides of the coin? Back when I felt 4 gate is too damn easy to do, I went from zerg to protoss cold turkey, with no knowledge of protoss build orders. I won games until I started seeing how good zergs made counters and it made me learn, appreciate, and adapt the matchup (except steppes of war, forcefield still owns hard). If you can start playing protoss and get rolled then you pretty much know that it's not a matter of imbalanced but skill.
Also, for future episodes, you might want to hire someone to do video slicing of replays. Two people talking is fine but people are visual creatures, and seeing it happen feels more credible than hearing it said.
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Neat idea for a show, I'd love to see some of the topics they explore. I do hope it doesn't degrade into flame wars, but high end discussions like this by seasoned pros can really only help move the game forward. I'll definitely be checking future eps out.
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Can I make a suggestion?
I like the premise of this show, IdrA really is one of the best players at evaluating what is happening in a game and discussing balance, and Artosis is really in tune with what trends are occuring in the game.
Both you guys are great but neither of you have HUGE personalities ... and filling a half-hour on video is tough. You probably need a third guy/guest to take the pressure off, or some kind of interview format, or game analysis, to add more variety and diversity to the show.
Like a replay showcasing how tough colossus are to deal with as Zerg, and why, would be really reinforce the content, or give you guys something to debate. I'm imagining a Day9 cast that reviews replays, but with a focus on the state of game balance, the meta game and how it's changing.
It just think it would really suit both your strengths. Just my too cents.
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Please suggest specific changes that you believe could be made to help the situation. People would be more receptive if potential solutions were included.
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I was a little hesitant when I first saw this because I felt like it would lead to more bickering over race imbalances but the first video was pretty informative and bought a lot of good points. Personally, I feel like nobody can be completely unbiased in this situation but Artosis and Idra weren't too bad for two Zergs.
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