EPTIMBALANCED! - Introduction - Page 22
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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content. You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical. Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
Why does it not surprise that the two whiniest players from the BW scene (and SC2 I presume) are the hosts for a show titled "IMBALANCED!"? Still, I decided to give it a listen and it was reasonably interesting and the points they brought up were pretty logical and compelling (I don't follow SC2 too intently so I don't know specifics of matchups). I find Idra's reasoning why the Colossus could be imbalanced, that being matchups revolving too heavily around the unit, very flawed though. The Siege Tank in BW, for example, has TvP and TvT heavily revolve around it. ZvZ revolves around Mutalisks (for the most part) and ZvT depends on the Defiler (once we get past early-midgame). Yet, the balance in BW is close to perfect, despite matchups revolving around these units. So to say that certain units are imbalanced because a matchup revolves heavily around them is flawed logic. The other points though were much better though, although I can't really comment myself. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On February 03 2011 15:35 Waking wrote: Please suggest specific changes that you believe could be made to help the situation. People would be more receptive if potential solutions were included. I think that's the opposite of what would happen and would be really counter-productive. The show should be about identifying problem areas that could be improved about Starcraft as well as ways to overcome these problems. That way it's constructive for everyone. When you suggest specific changes you are just playing game designer and it's pointless. All it does is create a point for people to go off on and flame rather than think constructively. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On February 03 2011 15:06 Zerokaiser wrote: This thread has become ridiculous. There are people that A) Think Artosis is a zerg player. B) Haven't actually watched the video C) Have watched the video but didn't actually listen to what IdrA and Artosis were suggesting, which was that Protoss needed adjustments so that Colossus wasn't a centerpiece of the entire race. The other people are D. They both know Artosis is a Protoss player, watched the video, understood the video, and are excited for the next video. Sadly this seems pretty accurate. They specifically clarify that it's probably not something that requires nerfing (yet idiots in this thread won't stop bringing it up) and they both think there can be metagame shifts or map changes that can even things out. If you actually listen to the discussion, they're only addressing the current state of the game. Imbalanced is obviously an inflammatory title that's meant to draw attention but if you actually pay attention to the content, they're not whining. There's definitely some possible criticisms like ArvickHero just brought up, but they fly over the head of most of this thread. :/ | ||
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Wolfsinus
United States22 Posts
Though I do think having maybe one more person would be nice, preferably a Terran player. | ||
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tyrless
United States485 Posts
So really instead of leading the show off with an incorrect definition of "fundamentally broken", they should have disclosed their continual vested interests in pushing a specific imba narrative on the community, that way we might at least absorb this new show as something more than a subversive attempt to propagate their tiresome agenda. Following that they might have discussed the fact that there is no such thing as "perfect balance", it is a mythical creature that will forever elude Starcraft. But they seem to not understand this basic premise...if they want perfect balance then they are playing the wrong game and should go learn chess. Furthermore, it's important to understand how dangerous it is to aspire for perfect balance, because every time Blizzard makes a change that is meant to balance out the races it often times will come at the cost of marginalizing the differences between them (which makes them so unique from one another). Sure they could make the Corruptor statistically identical to the Viking, and then maybe we'd skip the silly comparison between methods in which Terran and Zerg can effectively combat Collosus, but that's just incredibly shortsighted to even bring up such a comparison, as if equivalency should exist in the first place. This leads to the next, less obvious point which is... ...that these guys apparently have absolute zero understanding of balance from a design experience, and seem to be bafflingly ignorant to the philosophy behind Starcraft, perhaps blinded by their ingrained hypercompetitive mentalities. This is evident from how they go about discussing why the Collosus is "potentially" imbalanced (lol @ faux objectivity). Mainly they lack perspective, the kind of which I trust only to the designers at Blizzard and not self styled progamers. Speaking in a monotone voice might make you sound more reasonable but it doesn't suddenly grant you +20 to logic. More important though is WHY they are doing this. Was the GSL really not a big enough of a platform for Artosis to cram his imba opinions (OPINIONS, not universally accepted facts as he presents him) down the community's throat? Was Idra's position as one of the most famous foreigner players not enough to broadcast his pro-zerg bias? There is nothing actually useful being provided here other than fanning the flames and misdirecting any useful conversations about the design of the game. What is the goal here, to start at the grassroots and somehow reverse trickle-down their agenda into Blizzard like an imbalanced trojan horse of imbalancing power, thus ultimately influencing the design of the game in favor of zerg? Yet I have little doubt that no matter how ahead the zerg race is by any tangible or intangible measure, these two dudes can be counted on to find new ways to explain away the causes for zerg success, just as they did with the first two GSLs. Even when zerg is curbstomping, it's because the other guy just didn't play properly of course! Basically it's disappointing to see them wasting their time and energy on such unproductive shenanigans, when they could be doing legitimately constructive things for the SC2 community (as they often do). By the way for any suckers who are thinking "oh wow they are actually being pretty level headed and thoughtful about this it's not the QQ fest I expected", well YEAH HELLO it wouldn't be effective if they were overt in their intentions, it's got to seem more genuine to be taken as such. As it is it's impossible to take these types of discussions seriously when they don't have a solid handle on balance in the context of Starcraft. OH WELLS LOLO?? ps Artosis does not play Protoss, he pretends to play Protoss to lend himself credibility for this EXACT charade haha. sneaky troll is sneaky. Otherwise Artosis is awesome and I can't wait for next GSL because Tastosis are the coolest =] Idra is just boring  User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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vileChAnCe
Canada525 Posts
Once I flesh out a couple more things I'm going to get a replay pack with notable protoss to showcase it!! | ||
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rocky13
Canada70 Posts
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Space Invader
Australia291 Posts
Peace | ||
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Onlinejaguar
Australia2823 Posts
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Azuroz
Sweden1630 Posts
i dont think its a good idea to have 2 zerg players run something like this. User was warned for this post | ||
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
On February 03 2011 15:49 Azuroz wrote: 30 minutes of protoss whine, how suprising. i dont think its a good idea to have 2 zerg players run something like this. Artosis plays Protoss now. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On February 03 2011 15:49 Azuroz wrote: 30 minutes of protoss whine, how suprising. i dont think its a good idea to have 2 zerg players run something like this. I think posts like these deserve a warning or a ban. Please actually comprehend/watch the video so we can have some actual discussion instead of 20 pages of trash and 2 pages of worthwhile points User was warned for this post | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On February 03 2011 15:08 link0 wrote: I like the discussion. However, I fail to see how vikings are better against colossi than corruptors. I find the opposite to be true. Roach/Hydra also pwns gateway units harder than bio pwns gateway units. Ya, I really dont see how Colosi are harder for zerg than terran. vikings have range, but corruptors have attack bonus vs massive. Either way its hard to snipe the colosi before he destroys your ground army and thats as terran or zerg. I dunno, I didnt like the show. I feel idra and artosis are the most biased in the business. But I still have mad respect for who they are and what they do. Just dont like listening to balance talk to that extreme. Edit: But I do agree about what they were talking about in general. I think the colosi are too much of a centerpiece and needs readjusting. Who knows, this might actually help in the PvP mu. As a terran though, there is no unit in the game I fear more than colossus. Especially after the siege tank nerf which im aware only affects light units. It just makes it that much harder to keep zealots out of my army. Im sorry I started ranting there. | ||
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Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On February 03 2011 15:52 ArvickHero wrote: I think posts like these deserve a warning or a ban. Please actually comprehend/watch the video so we can have some actual discussion instead of 20 pages of trash and 2 pages of worthwhile points If anyone deserves a ban it's Artosis, and Idra needs a warning for going along with it. User was warned for this post | ||
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hiyo_bye
United States737 Posts
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LoLAdriankat
United States4307 Posts
On February 03 2011 15:55 DyEnasTy wrote: Ya, I really dont see how Colosi are harder for zerg than terran. vikings have range, but corruptors have attack bonus vs massive. Either way its hard to snipe the colosi before he destroys your ground army and thats as terran or zerg. Artosis and IdrA made a point that Terran deals with big collosi numbers fine because of viking range. Corruptors are good vs collosi, but the issue is getting them to the (upgraded) collosi when backed up by stalkers. Corruptors only have 6 range while vikings have 9 range. | ||
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Euronyme
Sweden3804 Posts
He's trying out protoss on ladder.. doesnt mean he's a protoss player. He's obviously heaviliy biased towards zerg, making balance discussion kind of silly imho. Still love artosis as a caster, but both him and Idra are known for having exaggerated views on Zergs UPness. Not long ago Idra said he wouldnt be able to win against good protosses because of the 10 second decreased phoenix build time.. Honestly I think the solution lies more in being creative in the game than doing balance videos.. Everyone already knows the collosus is a good unit, and that protoss relies on their few power units. | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On February 03 2011 16:01 LoLAdriankat wrote: Artosis and IdrA made a point that Terran deals with big collosi numbers fine because of viking range. Corruptors are good vs collosi, but the issue is getting them to the (upgraded) collosi when backed up by stalkers. Corruptors only have 6 range while vikings have 9 range. Infestors to hold the Stalkers in place, flank from the rear with Corruptors. | ||
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