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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims. |
On February 03 2011 16:28 MegaBUD wrote:
Pro player shouldnt talk about balance...
Commentator shouldnt talk about balance...
The only thing i heard was.... nerf terran, toss and buff zerg.
Also... this game wont be balance around pro level... why? cause its their job to deal with those imbalance... they play 12 hours a day.
And for god sake do not ask someone that BM every terran player what should be balance.
Leave balance to the people who have all the data about this game... it might take another year but... this game gonna be balance.
It's funny that you heard that because actually what they said was nerf colossus and buff something else such that protoss have multiple valid options rather than just ALL COLOSSUS ALL DAY. The issue was actually more that protoss were highly inflexible and perhaps "too weak" as a result of being balanced around colossus which are correspondingly "too strong".
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On February 03 2011 16:23 Geovu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:21 LeGeNDz wrote:
Corruptors should get range 9 like vikings. ooo i can do this too: Stalkers should get +2 damage per attack upgrade, do 15 base damage and have a fire rate of 0.83.
you mean you're too stupid to realize this would put the corrupter on par with the viking range where the viking is a fair counter to colossus idiot.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 03 2011 16:28 MegaBUD wrote:
Pro player shouldnt talk about balance...
Commentator shouldnt talk about balance...
The only thing i heard was.... nerf terran, toss and buff zerg.
Also... this game wont be balance around pro level... why? cause its their job to deal with those imbalance... they play 12 hours a day.
And for god sake do not ask someone that BM every terran player what should be balance.
Leave balance to the people who have all the data about this game... it might take another year but... this game gonna be balance.
Sorry bud, but you appear to be rather clueless here. I would reply on a point by point basis, but frankly you didn't address anything discussed in the video so you appear not to have watched it.
Though the game designers at Blizzard may be good at what they do, there are a lot of subtleties in balancing a game at a high enough level to be an eSport. It is naive at best to believe that Blizzard's statistics are capable of picking them up.
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On February 03 2011 16:21 LeGeNDz wrote:
Corruptors should get range 9 like vikings.
and honestly if the collosus had its range upgrade taken out is also something that could be considered. but if the range upgrade is taken out (nerf) the collosus would need a slight buff in say price where it could be 300 minerals 100 gas.
Yeah, let's take the range out so protoss don't have a siege unit, but wait! We'll balance it by making colossus PRACTICALLY FREE. Corrupters having range 9? I guess this matchup is slightly protoss favored so let's balance it by giving the anti colossus unit 50% more range.
This post is a cornucopia of wonderful suggestions.
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On February 03 2011 16:31 JakeBurton wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:28 MegaBUD wrote:
Pro player shouldnt talk about balance...
Commentator shouldnt talk about balance...
The only thing i heard was.... nerf terran, toss and buff zerg.
Also... this game wont be balance around pro level... why? cause its their job to deal with those imbalance... they play 12 hours a day.
And for god sake do not ask someone that BM every terran player what should be balance.
Leave balance to the people who have all the data about this game... it might take another year but... this game gonna be balance. It's funny that you heard that because actually what they said was nerf colossus and buff something else such that protoss have multiple valid options rather than just ALL COLOSSUS ALL DAY. The issue was actually more that protoss were highly inflexible and perhaps "too weak" as a result of being balanced around colossus which are correspondingly "too strong".
it is not their job to do that...
Do you hear day9 talk about balance? no
What about korean pro player? they dont.
Im not talking about how 2 zerg player comment about balance... it is not what they should do.
They should find a way to deal with it... and not nerfing it... this isnt world of warcraft.
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Interesting thoughts and discussion, although I tend to agree that having a bit more racial representation would be beneficial on the whole. Artosis and IdrA do a good job of being as neutral and objective as they can be, but I think it would be an excellent idea to bring a dedicated Protoss and Terran on with them. Then you could have multiple perspectives instead of just Artosis and IdrA trying their best to be impartial.
Great job though, and I look forward to more excellent content.
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On February 03 2011 16:36 MegaBUD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:31 JakeBurton wrote:On February 03 2011 16:28 MegaBUD wrote:
Pro player shouldnt talk about balance...
Commentator shouldnt talk about balance...
The only thing i heard was.... nerf terran, toss and buff zerg.
Also... this game wont be balance around pro level... why? cause its their job to deal with those imbalance... they play 12 hours a day.
And for god sake do not ask someone that BM every terran player what should be balance.
Leave balance to the people who have all the data about this game... it might take another year but... this game gonna be balance. It's funny that you heard that because actually what they said was nerf colossus and buff something else such that protoss have multiple valid options rather than just ALL COLOSSUS ALL DAY. The issue was actually more that protoss were highly inflexible and perhaps "too weak" as a result of being balanced around colossus which are correspondingly "too strong". it is not their job to do that... Do you hear day9 talk about balance? no What about korean pro player? they dont.Im not talking about how 2 zerg player comment about balance... it is not what they should do. They should find a way to deal with it... and not nerfing it... this isnt world of warcraft.
yes they do lol. Just because its not on TL doesn't mean they do. Ever read an interview where they say something like "I feel toss is too strong vs zerg right now and very frustrating match up".
Nestea has complained, Fruitdealer has complained, and can go on (maka complained about toss void ray for example). List goes on for korean pro's.
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On February 03 2011 16:36 MegaBUD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:31 JakeBurton wrote:On February 03 2011 16:28 MegaBUD wrote:
Pro player shouldnt talk about balance...
Commentator shouldnt talk about balance...
The only thing i heard was.... nerf terran, toss and buff zerg.
Also... this game wont be balance around pro level... why? cause its their job to deal with those imbalance... they play 12 hours a day.
And for god sake do not ask someone that BM every terran player what should be balance.
Leave balance to the people who have all the data about this game... it might take another year but... this game gonna be balance. It's funny that you heard that because actually what they said was nerf colossus and buff something else such that protoss have multiple valid options rather than just ALL COLOSSUS ALL DAY. The issue was actually more that protoss were highly inflexible and perhaps "too weak" as a result of being balanced around colossus which are correspondingly "too strong". it is not their job to do that... Do you hear day9 talk about balance? no What about korean pro player? they dont. Im not talking about how 2 zerg player comment about balance... it is not what they should do. They should find a way to deal with it... and not nerfing it... this isnt world of warcraft.
Lmao @ the Korean pro player comment. There are QQers over there too.
Day[9] doesn't mention balance in part because his goal is to help people improve. When you want to get better at something, it's better to focus on your own weaknesses than on what's 'unfair'.
Edit: I don't really care if this is a troll (I'm suspecting) because I'm in the mood to flesh out and refine my understanding of concepts by converting them into language.
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United States7483 Posts
In this video, you can see IdrA die a little inside every time Artosis calls him Eyedra.
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On February 03 2011 16:36 MegaBUD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:31 JakeBurton wrote:On February 03 2011 16:28 MegaBUD wrote:
Pro player shouldnt talk about balance...
Commentator shouldnt talk about balance...
The only thing i heard was.... nerf terran, toss and buff zerg.
Also... this game wont be balance around pro level... why? cause its their job to deal with those imbalance... they play 12 hours a day.
And for god sake do not ask someone that BM every terran player what should be balance.
Leave balance to the people who have all the data about this game... it might take another year but... this game gonna be balance. It's funny that you heard that because actually what they said was nerf colossus and buff something else such that protoss have multiple valid options rather than just ALL COLOSSUS ALL DAY. The issue was actually more that protoss were highly inflexible and perhaps "too weak" as a result of being balanced around colossus which are correspondingly "too strong". it is not their job to do that... Do you hear day9 talk about balance? no What about korean pro player? they dont. Im not talking about how 2 zerg player comment about balance... it is not what they should do. They should find a way to deal with it... and not nerfing it... this isnt world of warcraft.
they said it might balance out with time but idra was doubtful. plus if you are doing this for your fucking living and something is imbalanced maybe they should bring up these points, and besides did anyone force you to watch this? nope.
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You people are idiots you do realize Artosis has been playing purely protoss for the past month right?
User was warned for this post
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On February 03 2011 16:40 Joroth wrote:
You people are idiots you do realize Artosis has been playing purely protoss for the past month right?
I think the argument is that Artosis is still a 'zerg at heart' and that he's playing protoss because he feels the zerg situation is hopeless. In sum, if 'zerg UP' is the fundamental reason why he made the switch then it's still a situation where he'd be likely to be biased.
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Great show; thoughtful and informative.
Maybe in future episodes, you can also address underused (underpowered?) unitts, and their current role in the game, as well as why they're underused.
(that goes for spells/abilities as well, eg. Seeker missile)
Keep em' coming
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On February 03 2011 16:39 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:36 MegaBUD wrote:On February 03 2011 16:31 JakeBurton wrote:On February 03 2011 16:28 MegaBUD wrote:
Pro player shouldnt talk about balance...
Commentator shouldnt talk about balance...
The only thing i heard was.... nerf terran, toss and buff zerg.
Also... this game wont be balance around pro level... why? cause its their job to deal with those imbalance... they play 12 hours a day.
And for god sake do not ask someone that BM every terran player what should be balance.
Leave balance to the people who have all the data about this game... it might take another year but... this game gonna be balance. It's funny that you heard that because actually what they said was nerf colossus and buff something else such that protoss have multiple valid options rather than just ALL COLOSSUS ALL DAY. The issue was actually more that protoss were highly inflexible and perhaps "too weak" as a result of being balanced around colossus which are correspondingly "too strong". it is not their job to do that... Do you hear day9 talk about balance? no What about korean pro player? they dont.Im not talking about how 2 zerg player comment about balance... it is not what they should do. They should find a way to deal with it... and not nerfing it... this isnt world of warcraft. yes they do lol. Just because its not on TL doesn't mean they do. Ever read an interview where they say something like "I feel toss is too strong vs zerg right now and very frustrating match up". Nestea has complained, Fruitdealer has complained, and can go on (maka complained about toss void ray for example). List goes on for korean pro's.
Nothing wrong with a comment after a hard game.... but doing a 30min video about what they should change?
IMBALANCE! - EP 02 - Marines
IMBALANCE! - EP 03 - Phoenix
IMBALANCE! - EP 04 - ********
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Osaka27179 Posts
Locked. This thread is a nightmare.
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Calgary26004 Posts
Wow what a nightmare of replies. Really a shame. I felt it was an interesting discussion and hope they don't get discouraged to make another one.
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Calgary26004 Posts
Okay, reopened.
If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.
You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.
Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims.
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Calgary26004 Posts
On February 03 2011 11:43 Saechiis wrote:
Even though I actually enjoyed watching this introductory episode, I still think this entire show is a horrible idea. You've obviously chosen a subject close to your interests and it's obviously going to provide you with a ridiculous amounts of viewers that want to hear all about how their opponents have an unfair advantage. It's not, however, in the interest of the SC2 community.
TeamLiquid is already overrun with hundreds of brainless bronze Zergs that cling to every word IdrA says and will go rampaging through the forums every time the magic word *imbalance* is proclaimed. For every person that can see through obvious bias, oversimplification and exaggeration there are at least two that don't or won't and it shows in the continuous degradation of TL's SC2 Strategy Forums.
You explain how Starcraft 2 should be balanced around top level play since that's where the variable of "skill" relatively has the least influence. You fail to discuss though, the human factor, and what makes someone an objective judge of balance. Because let's face it, both you, IdrA and Artosis, are biased towards Zerg in the same way you were biased towards Terran when you played that race in BW. You're both easily the most vocal and quick in claiming imbalance in both versions of Starcraft and one can't help but notice that the arrow is always pointed at things that are disadvantageous to your race of play.
Even though I can see that you've tried to at least make logical steps of reasoning, it's still so obvious that you're both not objective in your judgement. You talk a little bit about Colossi in TvP and how it's balanced there, but watching that as spectator you just feel your disinterest in the subject and how you seem to be getting that part out of the way to get to the point you "really" want to talk about. Which becomes pretty obvious when Artosis says "now let's talk about Colossi in ZvP" and you both can't help but get a huge grin on your face since you get to tell it's overpowered.
You have both stated to not be familiar enough with other races than Zerg to play them at a competetive level. Doesn't that say enough about the validity of your judgement as two talented, but still biased Zerg players?
You talk about the Colossus being a weapon of choice in all MU's and how it seriously obliterates ground. Concluding that it's too hard for Zerg to balance Corrupter count together with the economy required to churn them out. But that's obviously just 1 side of the story, you don't mention how Protoss gateway units all get totally raped by Roach/ Hydra, which is the reason why Toss needs ranged splash damage in the first place. The relative weakness of the core gateway units needs the additional DPS of Storm and Colossi for it to be cost-efficient. And since Storm is such an expensive and long tech path, Colossi are practically always the unit of choice to survive through midgame.
Basically, I feel that the only ones that are benefited by such a show are yourselves; whilst SC communities like the ones on TL, SCReddit and even the Bnet forums are left to deal with even more irrational balance whines than there are now.
Very nice post. This is the proper way to send criticism, and I happen to agree with all the points.
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this thread is kinda commie.
Im to old for this. goodnight Tl. and grow up.
bye
User was temp banned for this post.
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I really do hope they will make more. First I thought it would be looked only from zerg point of view but they did a good job taking other races in the consideration too.
I'm glad Chill reopened this 
Not the greatest reopen start thanks to WECKL but at least he is out of here.
I really think this can be a really great podcast if they stick with the unbiased path. I mean I know it won't be 100% unbiased because they both play/played zerg but this time it didn't really show that much.
More of this
Edit: I actually think this could help the balance whines.IdrA and Artosis have been the most loudest professionals who have talked about balance or someone could say "whined". This shows that they really do consider all of the points and can explain themselves pretty good
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