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IMBALANCED! - Introduction - Page 23

Forum Index > SC2 General
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If you have criticism, you need to address the content, not the hosts. Idra and Artosis are 2 (1.5) Zerg players, but you can't point that out and then blanket them as biased. Respond to the content.

You can't tell them to "get 2 Terran and Protoss players". That's fucking obtuse advice. "Yo just get 4 more high level players to record with you." Yes, I think everyone sees the value in getting it, but it's not practical.

Respond to the content and use evidence / logic to back up your claims.
grandkai
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada71 Posts
February 03 2011 07:03 GMT
#441
Really liked the video, keep it up guys!
DarkRise
Profile Joined November 2010
1644 Posts
February 03 2011 07:04 GMT
#442
Like Idra said on his stream you can't really nerf colossus without buffing something else
Tho the show could be improve if there is a guest that actually plays the race being discuss (Artosis plays protoss but not at a high level yet since he just started and not a lot of practice since he had to cast multiple games)
Whiladan
Profile Joined September 2010
United States463 Posts
February 03 2011 07:04 GMT
#443
On February 03 2011 15:59 branflakes14 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2011 15:52 ArvickHero wrote:
On February 03 2011 15:49 Azuroz wrote:
30 minutes of protoss whine, how suprising.

i dont think its a good idea to have 2 zerg players run something like this.

I think posts like these deserve a warning or a ban. Please actually comprehend/watch the video so we can have some actual discussion instead of 20 pages of trash and 2 pages of worthwhile points


If anyone deserves a ban it's Artosis, and Idra needs a warning for going along with it.


GL with that campaign.
Ajunta
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany522 Posts
February 03 2011 07:06 GMT
#444
Its interesting to see that a topic about a show called "IMBALANCED" already got to 22 pages in about 7 hours :D I'd say that Artosis and idra got what they wanted. They sure do know how to poor that gasoline on the campfire!

Either way, I'm gonna watch every single episode of this.
Thanks Artosis and Idra, you are beyond awesome!
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15673 Posts
February 03 2011 07:06 GMT
#445
Using the fact that the majority of the SC2 community is a bunch of whiny kids who sit around discussing imbalance instead of playing the game to improve...to make money...Brilliant!

As much as I know this will create a lot of useless threads on TL from kids who don't know what they are talking about, I gotta hand it to Artosis/Idra for finding a way to derive fame and channel views from the most fanatic of SC2 players...The people who discuss imbalance on forums O_O
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
February 03 2011 07:09 GMT
#446
On February 03 2011 16:03 branflakes14 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2011 16:01 LoLAdriankat wrote:
On February 03 2011 15:55 DyEnasTy wrote:
Ya, I really dont see how Colosi are harder for zerg than terran. vikings have range, but corruptors have attack bonus vs massive. Either way its hard to snipe the colosi before he destroys your ground army and thats as terran or zerg.

Artosis and IdrA made a point that Terran deals with big collosi numbers fine because of viking range. Corruptors are good vs collosi, but the issue is getting them to the (upgraded) collosi when backed up by stalkers. Corruptors only have 6 range while vikings have 9 range.


Infestors to hold the Stalkers in place, flank from the rear with Corruptors.

The gas has to come from somewhere. Part of the reason they brought up maps is because it would be fundamentally different if Z could easily get the 5th and 6th gas, and with some regularity get 7 and 8. Neither of those is the case. The same was true in BW. If you didn't secure a 4th gas, you couldn't really make a successful switch into ultras. You also can't flank on most current SC2 maps.

Making extra hatches could probably help the larva issue.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Ryalnos
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1946 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-03 07:12:42
February 03 2011 07:09 GMT
#447
This was a reasonably interesting episode/idea for a show.

Sure, for an 'unbiased' analysis it's best to have participants from all races. However, that doesn't mean that two pro(ish in the case of Artosis) players can't speak their mind and broadcast it for those who are interested in hearing what and how they think about this oft-discussed topic. A show doesn't have to be unbiased to make it interesting. Perhaps they will have guests via Skype or the Liquid` players will have appearances in the future so they can put someone on the spot to argue against the perceived imbalance.
DyEnasTy
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3714 Posts
February 03 2011 07:09 GMT
#448
On February 03 2011 16:01 LoLAdriankat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2011 15:55 DyEnasTy wrote:
Ya, I really dont see how Colosi are harder for zerg than terran. vikings have range, but corruptors have attack bonus vs massive. Either way its hard to snipe the colosi before he destroys your ground army and thats as terran or zerg.

Artosis and IdrA made a point that Terran deals with big collosi numbers fine because of viking range. Corruptors are good vs collosi, but the issue is getting them to the (upgraded) collosi when backed up by stalkers. Corruptors only have 6 range while vikings have 9 range.



Ya I understand that and I agree. But often times, unless I have a huge viking ball I cant kill the colossus fast enough before my army dies. Then im left with some vikings. And rarely do I encounter a protoss who is gonna let me whipe out his entire colosuss ball. Either he blinks his stalkers right under my vikings after hes already killed half my army, or just a little micro and I lose some vikings unless I have uber control.

I think if blizzard wasnt so dumb and designed terran to be using bio more
ie: tank nerf, emp on ghost, hellions late game "meatshield" capabilites, and how reliant and important marauders are, than TvP would be awesome. Im not trying to complain, but its equally hard for terran.
Much better to die an awesome Terran than to live as a magic wielding fairy or a mindless sac of biological goop. -Manifesto7
JakeBurton
Profile Joined October 2010
74 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-03 07:13:31
February 03 2011 07:11 GMT
#449
Oh wow. I cannot distinguish the trolls from the people with a problem with IdrA and Artosis's attitude from the people who feel that the show itself is too provocative. This is a great idea. The reasoning was pretty compelling and they seem to have enough caution about calling things broken to be credible. I'm interested in their take on blue flame hellions. Seems like they might be just on the border of slightly too good and I bet we'll see a lot of blue flame hellions from T in the next GSL.
vyyye
Profile Joined July 2010
Sweden3917 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-03 07:13:32
February 03 2011 07:11 GMT
#450
I hope this is nothing like the last IdrA interview on Artosis channel. "Zerg is bad, other races are op". Just finished watching the introduction and it seems this might actually be interesting and not a high production whine. Have to watch the rest tonight but.. hm, I'm intrigued.

Edit: But I'm bloody certain I won't be keeping track of this thread. Oh christ, don't even want to imagine the shitstorm of bull.
Ksi
Profile Joined May 2010
357 Posts
February 03 2011 07:11 GMT
#451
On February 03 2011 15:55 DyEnasTy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2011 15:08 link0 wrote:
I like the discussion.

However, I fail to see how vikings are better against colossi than corruptors. I find the opposite to be true.

Roach/Hydra also pwns gateway units harder than bio pwns gateway units.



Ya, I really dont see how Colosi are harder for zerg than terran. vikings have range, but corruptors have attack bonus vs massive. Either way its hard to snipe the colosi before he destroys your ground army and thats as terran or zerg.

I dunno, I didnt like the show. I feel idra and artosis are the most biased in the business. But I still have mad respect for who they are and what they do. Just dont like listening to balance talk to that extreme.

Edit: But I do agree about what they were talking about in general. I think the colosi are too much of a centerpiece and needs readjusting. Who knows, this might actually help in the PvP mu. As a terran though, there is no unit in the game I fear more than colossus. Especially after the siege tank nerf which im aware only affects light units. It just makes it that much harder to keep zealots out of my army. Im sorry I started ranting there.


Even when you factor in corruption, vikings do more DPS to colossus than corruptors do. They have more range and cost only 75 gas compared to 100 gas. Sure corruptors have more hp and armor, but when it comes to countering colossus, it's about killing them off before they annihilate your ground army, so it's DPS that matters the most. Yes, zerg have their production mechanics, but reactored starports pretty much offset that advantage.

Also, once the colossus are dead, the vikings can land and be helpful in a close fight. With corruptors, at best you will get a 20% damage bonus vs ONE unit for each corruptor you have leftover.

Ultimately though, Blizz was just very short-sighted when they implemented the macro gimmicks, and they did a poor job of balancing around them. Their solution to the strength of warpgate was to...make all gateway units horrible, and the colossus was the band-aid solution given to the protoss race's weak gateway army. Their solution to the strength of inject larva in late-game was to make a zerg 200/200 army absolutely worthless in cost efficiency.
Lucid90
Profile Joined September 2008
Canada340 Posts
February 03 2011 07:12 GMT
#452
I disagree with any imbalance in sc2. I think no one player has got even close to what's possible in sc2. And until that happens, which it never will, we should not balance it out. I see A LOT of top zerg players make a lot of mistakes, and until some of them start playing near perfect, only then can we start whining about balance. 2.7+k master league zerg here.

But sometimes I do feel like bunkers are a bit too strong. They are free, and don't set the T behind if he makes them, with with exception of the deposit of 100 minerals he had to invest and the building time with the scv. Punishing bunker spam seems kinda appropriate to me, like making bunkers only be able to salvage if there's nothing attacking it or a longer salvage time.
My sc2 account: http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/1296221/LuciD
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
February 03 2011 07:13 GMT
#453
On February 03 2011 16:02 Euronyme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 03 2011 15:51 LoLAdriankat wrote:
On February 03 2011 15:49 Azuroz wrote:
30 minutes of protoss whine, how suprising.

i dont think its a good idea to have 2 zerg players run something like this.

Artosis plays Protoss now.


He's trying out protoss on ladder.. doesnt mean he's a protoss player.
He's obviously heaviliy biased towards zerg, making balance discussion kind of silly imho.
Still love artosis as a caster, but both him and Idra are known for having exaggerated views on Zergs UPness.
Not long ago Idra said he wouldnt be able to win against good protosses because of the 10 second decreased phoenix build time..
Honestly I think the solution lies more in being creative in the game than doing balance videos.. Everyone already knows the collosus is a good unit, and that protoss relies on their few power units.

Artosis was playing Protoss in the GSL code A qualifiers, which can only imply that if he won he would have been playing Protoss in Code A as well. It goes a bit further than just trying it out on the ladder.
While they're known for being more vocal about Zerg's weakness than other high profile community members, none of that came into play in this video. Every point they tried to make was discussed and explained in full, and none of it was exaggerated.

Even after people watch this video and see how UNBIAS they're actually being, they can't seem to get over who is actually talking and it just blocks them mentally from accepting anything they hear as being impartial which, after 1 day, is already getting tiresome.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
MagnusHyperion
Profile Joined August 2010
United States288 Posts
February 03 2011 07:16 GMT
#454
I thought this was a thoughtful discussion of how SC2 is shaping up. They covered how strategies change over time, how a unit's power is impacted by map choice, and what the effect of specific units are at the highest levels of play.

Also note, they didn't say that the colossus was actually imbalanced. Rather they pointed to the current map pool and strategies being a prime concern. I would, as a low level protoss (2700 masters), say that, while I am not good enough to directly address the balance issues they talk about, the colossus' ability to dictate stereotypical overreaction (read as: predictable) responses from the opponent is a cause for concern.

Specifically, I would point to Artosis' comments about the current map pool having inadequacies in size and, thusly, positioning. I am excited to see what will happen in the upcoming GSTL with the new maps! I hope to see some of the true RTS potential of SC2 at a higher frequency given that players can now focus on strategy, economy management, and positioning!
UC Davis Fighting!!! Support CSL visit their webpage and watch their streams!
iCCup.riffe
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden23 Posts
February 03 2011 07:17 GMT
#455
Lol all i heard was its hard to counter "colussus as zerg", not really takes some time to tech up to colussus and more time to mass up. High templar+sentry forcefields is a hard thing to "counter"
[url=http://sc2sig.com/profile/eu/218656/1/Riffe/][img]http://sc2sig.com/s/eu/218656-1.png[/img][/url] [url=http://sc2sig.com]get your own starcraft 2 signature at sc2sig.com[/url]
LeGeNDz
Profile Joined November 2010
60 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-03 07:28:41
February 03 2011 07:21 GMT
#456
Corruptors should get range 9 like vikings.
and honestly if the collosus had its range upgrade taken out is also something that could be considered. but if the range upgrade is taken out (nerf) the collosus would need a slight buff in say price where it could be 300 minerals 100 gas.
Al Bundy
Profile Joined April 2010
7257 Posts
February 03 2011 07:23 GMT
#457
Hey guys I have a totally relevant comparison between Vikings and Corruptors: vikings can land and attack ground units, while corruptors can morph into broodlords.

I just blew your mind, didn't I?

Some people should really try to read between the lines, for a change.
o choro é livre
Geovu
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Estonia1344 Posts
February 03 2011 07:23 GMT
#458
On February 03 2011 16:21 LeGeNDz wrote:
Corruptors should get range 9 like vikings.

ooo i can do this too:

Stalkers should get +2 damage per attack upgrade, do 15 base damage and have a fire rate of 0.83.
silencesc
Profile Joined July 2010
United States464 Posts
February 03 2011 07:24 GMT
#459
oh noes, they're releasing the gracken!!

I wonder how long they've been wanting to do this, because from artosis' commentary he seemed bursting at the seams to talk about balance during the GSL. I was really surprised how non-zerg centric the podcast was, and I'm looking forward to more. Good job guys! :D
Real Men Proxy Gate | TEAM LIQUID HWITINGGGG!! PROUD MEMBER OF UC DAVIS CSL TEAM | "If you don't give a shit about what gum you eat, buy Stride" - Liquid`Tyler on SotG 4/19/2011
MegaBUD
Profile Joined September 2010
Canada179 Posts
February 03 2011 07:28 GMT
#460
Pro player shouldnt talk about balance...

Commentator shouldnt talk about balance...

The only thing i heard was.... nerf terran, toss and buff zerg.

Also... this game wont be balance around pro level... why? cause its their job to deal with those imbalance... they play 12 hours a day.

And for god sake do not ask someone that BM every terran player what should be balance.

Leave balance to the people who have all the data about this game... it might take another year but... this game gonna be balance.
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