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On December 09 2010 23:36 canSore wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 21:43 PimpMobeel wrote:
This is stupidly biased. Blink stalkers are superior to hydralisks in everyway possible. Colossi rape them so badly; what does zerg have that rape blink stalkers half as badly? And honestly, you're comparing cannons to spore crawlers? Can a few spore crawlers make that 3rd/4th expansion of yours invulnerable the way cannons can? I don't know where you're getting your information from, but my hydras always own blink stalkers. what does zerg have to rape bling stalkers? fungal growth and aforementioned hydras. No a few spine crawlers can't make the 3rd/4th invulnerable, but 8 or 9 can.
I didn't say they didn't. You have completely missed the point. I just said blink stalkers are just a much superior unit to hydralisks purely by virtue of the fact at just how badly they get raped by colossi since your post was about being forced into one unit or other.
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I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad.
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On December 09 2010 23:58 GoldenH wrote:
I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad.
DONT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON *ARGH/)(!"/#)(/!"#(&!"#%*
It just can't be more wrong, if you don't belive that bigger maps (which will happen) and more macro oriented play wont effect a good high APM Protoss, then you're clueless. Unit positioning is pretty much the most important for protoss out of all races, or atleast hardest, and is something that you will pretty much always loose games due to having bad of (strange sentence I know).
The potential in the warp prism and warpgates in general is sick... There will always be room for improvement for players with all races imo.
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It's never too late to change the race.
I am not a diamond player and it doesn't feel right for me to be questioning a top 200 player. While bearing this in mind, I'd like to throw in here the idea that protoss community as a whole is not playing the right, or optimal, way.
I feel I could do a lot better myself, I will soon hit 500 games played and I am still confused as to what to do with the protoss. I see very little intelligent protoss play, so I have hard time finding any role models. Watching GSL protoss play I just can't help but feel that their gameplay is very gimmicky.
So what's my point here? It seems to me that protoss as a race seems to be very confused as to what to do. You say terran and zerg have way higher skill ceiling than what protoss does? Well I feel exacly the opposite. I feel there are TOO MANY things for me to consider and that my skills are just not good enough for controlling the race properly (and that's why I lose). Blink stalkers and sentries seem to have almost infinity skill ceiling. The managment of army consisting of blink stalkers, zealots, sentries and colossi also seems to have extremely high skill ceiling yet I see even pros moving them in huge blobs, almost like they were a single control group.
You may choose to change race if you wish, but it seems to me that even the top protoss still have a lot to improve. I definately do.
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Unless you plan on going pro keep playing the race you LIKE/LOVE to play.
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On December 09 2010 19:06 DNB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 19:04 Eminent Rising wrote:
switch to terran cause u'll never get anywhere playing toss. Like oGsMC and HongUnPrime?  Edit: My advice is simple; Play the race you feel the most comfortable with OR the race you think is the coolest 
I hope this isn't a spoiler beyond the RO4!
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On December 10 2010 00:10 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 23:58 GoldenH wrote:
I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad. DONT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON *ARGH/)(!"/#)(/!"#(&!"#%* It just can't be more wrong, if you don't belive that bigger maps (which will happen) and more macro oriented play wont effect a good high APM Protoss, then you're clueless. Unit positioning is pretty much the most important for protoss out of all races, or atleast hardest, and is something that you will pretty much always loose games due to having bad of (strange sentence I know). The potential in the warp prism and warpgates in general is sick... There will always be room for improvement for players with all races imo.
Lol, why can't. He listen to me?
Look, obviously protoss reareds some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you'veastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then
Unlike some posters here I'm not saying that protoss cant win, I'm sure the race can be competative, but simply that there is less to master. All the things that protoss can use help the other races as well. Do you think terrans cant profit from macro or zergs cant profit from saving low health units? Think again. But both races have far more to master that can make them great.
Look at zerg in the original starcraft. For a lon time everyone thought they were up because protoss and terran were so easy to get good at. But everyone recognized the potential for zerg spellcasters. There just was no player good enough to use that. Then eventually there was players that were good enough and zerg became the premier race. Eventually terran and protoss caught up.
But the difference between zer in sc1 and protoss in sc2 is that there is no unit or ability that protoss has that players are not good enough to use. People talk about warp prisms but do you honestly think they haven't been tried? I even run into warp prism play from plat players for goodness sake. No. There is no protoss ability that players aren't good enough to use. There are only protoss tactics that son't have the potential to make a difference when used at the highest level of skill.
And that is why you should switch from protoss. Yes eventually protoss may be figured out or a patch will be released that lets players benefit from their skill. But you will not hone those skills by playing protoss in its present state. You should switch races, and become a better gamer, . Then when protoss is fixed decide if you want to switch back.
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I think you are being hasty. The game is out less than 6 months and already you expect every strategy and aspect of the game to be balanced? Most zerg players don't even use the race correctly (for example, as demonstrated by how easily idra was able to steamroll Select because he couldn't find a decent zerg practice partner).
You say 1a forcefield is your main strategy because you don't typically get to the late game. Well that's true of any race early game, you're not gonna have gosu micro with just t1 or t1.5 units. If you want to micro more then you should play for the late game and find ways to make it to templar/dt/etc that let you micro more, even if it means not pushing when you could win.
And if you really dislike protoss anymore, then why not switch races? Sure you'll fall on the ladder while you learn, but is your ego really worth continuing to play a race you don't enjoy/don't believe can be effective anymore?
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Play the race you feel comfortable with. I was Terran for a long time then I swapped to zerg. I like the macro mechanics and "insta" respawn of your army. I never could get timings right with Protoss.
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Sorry fBor any typotw I am on an android phone.
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If you want to change races do it because you are not comfortable with the one you are playing, don't do it because a race is dominant. Regarding the switch being too late, the game has been out for less than a year, you will obviouly be able to catch up on strategy and practice will help you get better with the control, macro and micro of the new race you pick.
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On December 10 2010 00:53 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 00:10 Kyuki wrote:On December 09 2010 23:58 GoldenH wrote:
I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad. DONT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON *ARGH/)(!"/#)(/!"#(&!"#%* It just can't be more wrong, if you don't belive that bigger maps (which will happen) and more macro oriented play wont effect a good high APM Protoss, then you're clueless. Unit positioning is pretty much the most important for protoss out of all races, or atleast hardest, and is something that you will pretty much always loose games due to having bad of (strange sentence I know). The potential in the warp prism and warpgates in general is sick... There will always be room for improvement for players with all races imo. Lol, why can't. He listen to me? Look, obviously protoss reareds some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you'veastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then Unlike some posters here I'm not saying that protoss cant win, I'm sure the race can be competative, but simply that there is less to master. All the things that protoss can use help the other races as well. Do you think terrans cant profit from macro or zergs cant profit from saving low health units? Think again. But both races have far more to master that can make them great. Look at zerg in the original starcraft. For a lon time everyone thought they were up because protoss and terran were so easy to get good at. But everyone recognized the potential for zerg spellcasters. There just was no player good enough to use that. Then eventually there was players that were good enough and zerg became the premier race. Eventually terran and protoss caught up. But the difference between zer in sc1 and protoss in sc2 is that there is no unit or ability that protoss has that players are not good enough to use. People talk about warp prisms but do you honestly think they haven't been tried? I even run into warp prism play from plat players for goodness sake. No. There is no protoss ability that players aren't good enough to use. There are only protoss tactics that son't have the potential to make a difference when used at the highest level of skill. And that is why you should switch from protoss. Yes eventually protoss may be figured out or a patch will be released that lets players benefit from their skill. But you will not hone those skills by playing protoss in its present state. You should switch races, and become a better gamer, . Then when protoss is fixed decide if you want to switch back.
How do P players not benefit from skill? Protoss is the same as BW, you can't just 1a2a3a into a minefield or into a lurker contain, but you gotta have good micro to diffuse the various situations. The only reasons P players get shafted a lot is because their play always revolves around Robo units since you needs obs to counter banshees, and collo to counter mass hydra play, and immortals to help against roaches since for some reason they rape stalkers who dont have sentry support. The upcoming patch will allow for faster massing of pheonixes which could give protoss some earlier harassment options. I also think it'll freshen up PvP since they could be used to snipe collossi if they are in a big enough mass, which the lower build time will make much easier.
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Re: Harassment aspect
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I really try to make a harassment oriented protoss play work. I have a fair amount of success from time to time, but it just feels forced. Terran are just so much more flexible in that regard.
Most of the time, they tech to starports FOR medivacs, which augments their army AND opens up drop possibilities. Protoss techs to robo for immortal/collosus, and then have stop production and go out of their way to make prisms. Medivacs are also amazing even if you're not doing drops. Prisms... not so much. The warp-in functionality is supposed to make drops better, but it ends up forcing you to suicide units instead of being able to load them all up and fly away like terran can.
On top of that, terran transitions are so much smoother. A banshee transition is just an addon swap away from medivac production. For protoss, a transition from prism harass to something like phoenix or VR (or templar tech, for that matter) is a completely different tech direction.
Protoss can harass, but the limiting factor is their flexibility. A 1/1/1 just doesn't work like it does for terran. The biggest thing a strategy like warp-prism harass has going for it is that nobody expects it, because you never see it.
But to answer your question: No, it's not too late to switch races. I'm probably switching to Terran because of the above observations. I like harassment oriented play, so rather than continuing to try to force protoss to what I want them to be, I'd rather go to Terran, which I know can bring me a playstyle I enjoy. I'm all for innovation of playstyle, but if it's not fun, don't do it.
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It is never too late to change races.
I don't see why some people are so worried about it. It really comes down to your mindset (I've been saying that word a lot recently) and how you go about the game.
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I started out playing Zerg cuz i thought they would be fun, found out otherwise, switched to Terran cuz I thought they were cooler, and they're a lot of fun... basically, I play the race I think has the biggest BAMF ratio, and whose playstyle I like the most and go with that. If you're down with Toss, and wanna give them a shot, try some Toss play vs some Very Hard or Insane (if you think you can handle it) level AI, and try out some Build Orders and stuff. Your Terran skill isn't going to disappear if you try out another race, so just give them a shot, and if it doesn't pan out, it doesn't pan out. No harm in investigating.
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Canada13389 Posts
never too late to switch races as others have said but it will be sad to see more protoss go  Im only platinum but I find having a warp prism on the high ground to warp in HTs and storm from above is pretty fun and wonky. But again, this relies on the T or Z not having air units :S.
I agree with a lot of the skill ceiling thing as well since anyone plat up is decent at using storm and forcefield and other spells its just how well you apply them and thats where skill comes in. I think that if the Protoss play style doesn't seem attractive to you and you want to drop and harass go Terran by all means and try to move away from tank viking play.
But keep in mind that mirror matchups do devolve into a common metagame play a lot. PvP in my experience is 4 gate into DT or 4 Gate or collossus wars :S I have bene trying new stuff like the SangHo 4gate expand build which is ok and immortal voidray which is just super fun.
So my advice is try a few games with the other races and see if their play styles fit with you better and go from there but dont think its too late I mean Sc2 if its anything like BW will be around forever and 6 months is a drop in the bucket. Of course you will fall off the top200 probably right after a switch depending on where you are in the top 200
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I agree with most things OP say´s. In a straight macro game, T has so much options than P. Some T complain about lategame, but just check late PvT jinro or piqliq styles. I'm not qqing about imbalances, no. I just agree that T has more variety. And for in-game creative players (is not that easy to be creative IN-GAME), P is not the race to play. T has so so many harass options, even zerg has cheap run-by posibilities with speedlings or speedling drops. That's definitely the main P weakness.
If you feel it, take the big step, and do it.
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im pretty sure the archer has more than 135 hp, other than that i agree with a lot of what the op said, especially about micro not being rewarding enough.
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On December 10 2010 01:43 craz3d wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 00:53 GoldenH wrote:On December 10 2010 00:10 Kyuki wrote:On December 09 2010 23:58 GoldenH wrote:
I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad. DONT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON *ARGH/)(!"/#)(/!"#(&!"#%* It just can't be more wrong, if you don't belive that bigger maps (which will happen) and more macro oriented play wont effect a good high APM Protoss, then you're clueless. Unit positioning is pretty much the most important for protoss out of all races, or atleast hardest, and is something that you will pretty much always loose games due to having bad of (strange sentence I know). The potential in the warp prism and warpgates in general is sick... There will always be room for improvement for players with all races imo. Lol, why can't. He listen to me? Look, obviously protoss reareds some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you'veastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then Unlike some posters here I'm not saying that protoss cant win, I'm sure the race can be competative, but simply that there is less to master. All the things that protoss can use help the other races as well. Do you think terrans cant profit from macro or zergs cant profit from saving low health units? Think again. But both races have far more to master that can make them great. Look at zerg in the original starcraft. For a lon time everyone thought they were up because protoss and terran were so easy to get good at. But everyone recognized the potential for zerg spellcasters. There just was no player good enough to use that. Then eventually there was players that were good enough and zerg became the premier race. Eventually terran and protoss caught up. But the difference between zer in sc1 and protoss in sc2 is that there is no unit or ability that protoss has that players are not good enough to use. People talk about warp prisms but do you honestly think they haven't been tried? I even run into warp prism play from plat players for goodness sake. No. There is no protoss ability that players aren't good enough to use. There are only protoss tactics that son't have the potential to make a difference when used at the highest level of skill. And that is why you should switch from protoss. Yes eventually protoss may be figured out or a patch will be released that lets players benefit from their skill. But you will not hone those skills by playing protoss in its present state. You should switch races, and become a better gamer, . Then when protoss is fixed decide if you want to switch back. How do P players not benefit from skill? Protoss is the same as BW, you can't just 1a2a3a into a minefield or into a lurker contain, but you gotta have good micro to diffuse the various situations. The only reasons P players get shafted a lot is because their play always revolves around Robo units since you needs obs to counter banshees, and collo to counter mass hydra play, and immortals to help against roaches since for some reason they rape stalkers who dont have sentry support. The upcoming patch will allow for faster massing of pheonixes which could give protoss some earlier harassment options. I also think it'll freshen up PvP since they could be used to snipe collossi if they are in a big enough mass, which the lower build time will make much easier.
to repeat, "Look, obviously protoss requires some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you've mastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then"
You really can't do a lot of micro with Protoss other races can. Yes of course you can micro your units to keep them alive, but you can't micro your units TO WIN... either your units are able to win in a fight or they aren't, no amount of clicking will make zealots run faster, or stalkers do more DPS, or colossus dodge viking shots.
Meanwhile microing terran bio and zerg roach/ling/muta etc has more destructive potential, Protoss is only able to be prepared, it can take a lot of skill to always be prepared, but if the other player is equally prepared, you cannot then have a micro war. It makes Protoss very 1 dimensional and means that there is not a lot of improvement to be had.
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Sc2 is still very in its infancy (I hope so, anyway). It's nowhere close to being too late to change.
A wc3 example which will hopefully be familiar to you: Grubby played Night Elf for ~1 year before switching.
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EPT
