• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:01
CEST 22:01
KST 05:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202560RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time What tournaments are world championships? The StarCraft 2 GOAT - An in-depth analysis The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Dewalt's Show Matches in China
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? [G] Mineral Boosting Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 807 users

Is it too late to switch races? - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
Mongery
Profile Joined May 2009
892 Posts
December 09 2010 11:31 GMT
#41
Stick to the race u think is the best! or the one u feel most comfortable with! At least protoss isnt that underpowered imo. Just check GSL protoss is doing well there at least. I think zerg got some issues atm but it will get there i guess.
http://www.twitch.tv/mongery_tv https://www.esportsearnings.com/players/27699-mongery-
BetterFasterStronger
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States604 Posts
December 09 2010 11:32 GMT
#42
I think I will help you a lot with this decision. I too was a Warcraft 3 player. One of the best on the US Servers (1 billionth overall). So because of that I chose Protoss because it SEEMED like it was the most micro intensive race, but after playing it for 1,000 games, making the top 200. I learned that it really isn't. At least from my perspective Terran seems like you are rewarded from micro then any of the other races where as Zerg you are rewarded more for macro, and protoss you are rewarded more from Build Order Refinement and your caster units (how to forcefield, storm, ect). Thats just how I personally view the races. Its not to late to switch races, keep in mind we won't have a finished game till 2014 when Legacy of the Void comes out.

How i came to the decision to switch was i just stopped playing for a week. I thought about it, and after a while I realized terran just suits me more. However, i did fall of the top 200 pretty fucking hard though, so that sucks. But im getting it back.
Top 200 as Protoss - Switched to Terran. 0-30 against EGiNcontroL... God damnet
NearPerfection
Profile Joined October 2010
232 Posts
December 09 2010 11:33 GMT
#43
On December 09 2010 19:51 Keitzer wrote:
because there was no TL;DR, i'm going to assume my own...

play your "favorite" race.... if you play the imba race, GL with that because Starcraft is such a close game balance wise that you'll be switching race every patch.


anyone kind enough to explain to me what TL:DR is? Team Liquid: Database what?
Gigaudas
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Sweden1213 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-09 11:37:40
December 09 2010 11:35 GMT
#44
On December 09 2010 20:20 Kyuki wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 19:50 Gigaudas wrote:
On December 09 2010 19:48 Kyuki wrote:
Don't even talk balance.. It's really stupid. :/


Why? A top200 player would surely have more fun if he was also getting far in regional tournaments. Winning is fun!

This is detrimental to development. What will you do when your race gets figured out and other races catches up within the metagame, and a balance change happens and what not. Will you swap race again and have top players with that race laugh at you? The further we get into this game the harder it'll get to catch up when you swap races.

This is the same bullshit that's going on when top players scream imba, and then a couple of weeks later the issues are resolved even without patching, and then patching happens and readjustments needs to occur again.

What is fun has nothing to do with it, ofc it's fun to win, but you will not be a longterm winner if you think in balance terms. You need to just play the race that you are comfortable with and play it out to the max. What I'm saying is; dont choose your race because it's more powerful in certain situations in the metagame, but choose your race based upon your playstyle, comfort and perhaps what you see as potential within the race. Any other decision will backfire eventually.


The OP is arguing that some types of units will always be better at a top level as long as the game is balanced for casual players. If this is true, which I believe it is, then it's likely that a player would win more and enjoy the game more with a certain race.

Scroll through the pages here:

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/individual-leagues#tblt-3441-1-0-DESC

with this in mind: Protoss in Brood War was considered OP and easy-mode among D-C players on ICCUP. Someone ranked C on ICCUP in Brood War was definitely on a skill level comparable to top Diamond in SC2. Now, count the Protoss players in the above link.

I've already posted this but, look at the winners in the SC2-tournaments registered by tl.net:

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-6363-1-0-DESC

Count the Terran players. At the same time there is a general consensus that the game is decently balanced because that is how it feels to the average player.

That last link hints at an even worse balance if you consider that the Zerg/Protoss players have a large portion of their wins in show matches and KotH-formats.

I
Piski
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Finland3461 Posts
December 09 2010 11:35 GMT
#45
On December 09 2010 19:22 Melancholia wrote:
I'm assuming that English isn't your first language? The phrasing of much of that was rather odd.


Why does it matter? He made his point just fine and posting just to point out "I don't think you're native language is english" is stupid. There are a lot of people who don't speak english as their native language and mistakes will be made. Who cares.
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-09 11:44:07
December 09 2010 11:35 GMT
#46
On December 09 2010 20:33 NearPerfection wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 19:51 Keitzer wrote:
because there was no TL;DR, i'm going to assume my own...

play your "favorite" race.... if you play the imba race, GL with that because Starcraft is such a close game balance wise that you'll be switching race every patch.


anyone kind enough to explain to me what TL:DR is? Team Liquid: Database what?

Too Long, Didnt Read.
Mada Mada Dane
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
December 09 2010 11:43 GMT
#47
On December 09 2010 20:35 Gigaudas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 20:20 Kyuki wrote:
On December 09 2010 19:50 Gigaudas wrote:
On December 09 2010 19:48 Kyuki wrote:
Don't even talk balance.. It's really stupid. :/


Why? A top200 player would surely have more fun if he was also getting far in regional tournaments. Winning is fun!

This is detrimental to development. What will you do when your race gets figured out and other races catches up within the metagame, and a balance change happens and what not. Will you swap race again and have top players with that race laugh at you? The further we get into this game the harder it'll get to catch up when you swap races.

This is the same bullshit that's going on when top players scream imba, and then a couple of weeks later the issues are resolved even without patching, and then patching happens and readjustments needs to occur again.

What is fun has nothing to do with it, ofc it's fun to win, but you will not be a longterm winner if you think in balance terms. You need to just play the race that you are comfortable with and play it out to the max. What I'm saying is; dont choose your race because it's more powerful in certain situations in the metagame, but choose your race based upon your playstyle, comfort and perhaps what you see as potential within the race. Any other decision will backfire eventually.


The OP is arguing that some types of units will always be better at a top level as long as the game is balanced for casual players. If this is true, which I believe it is, then it's likely that a player would win more and enjoy the game more with a certain race.

Scroll through the pages here:

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/individual-leagues#tblt-3441-1-0-DESC

with this in mind: Protoss in Brood War was considered OP and easy-mode among D-C players on ICCUP. Someone ranked C on ICCUP in Brood War was definitely on a skill level comparable to top Diamond in SC2. Now, count the Protoss players in the above link.

I've already posted this but, look at the winners in the SC2-tournaments registered by tl.net:

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-6363-1-0-DESC

Count the Terran players. At the same time there is a general consensus that the game is decently balanced because that how it feels to the average player.

That last link hints at an even worse balance if you consider that the Zerg/Protoss players have a large portion of their wins in show matches and KotH-formats.


And I disagree completely. You can surely argue about these things, but it isnt anything else but theorycraft, especially in this game since it's so young. If you lean back on statistics like this you will fall over and die when they change. I don't care if this is the case Atm, tides will change and always have.

All the info you post is pretty useless when you think longterm, which I would do if I wanted to play this game for more than just 1 expansion at a higher level.

I never stated that the game is balanced or that there is no issues. Weather that is the case or not just is not important since THIS game is so new still. You see major changes coming with each patch, and you also see development in the actual games from all the different races.

I will keep saying that if you include balance within your reasoning as to what race you will play, you will regret it later if it does not fit your own playstyle and your own comfort, because once the tides changes and players adapt to different metagame changes and responses, you will fall over and die.

He/she asked a question and I'm responding to what I belive is the better way to view this longterm, and you disagreeing is completely fine with me, but I don't think you're making a case more than just presenting a bunch of numbers that tries to explain balance, which in itself is quite absurd imo.
Mada Mada Dane
diegonolan
Profile Joined November 2010
United States54 Posts
December 09 2010 11:50 GMT
#48
stalkers can out micro marines and roaches, i don't really understand, every race has units that require micro
phisku
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Belgium864 Posts
December 09 2010 11:50 GMT
#49
play the most OP one :p
switch at every patch.
pro like morrow and tlo have switch, it's so in. :D
WAAA
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
New Zealand291 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-09 11:54:32
December 09 2010 11:51 GMT
#50
On December 09 2010 19:51 TheOne85 wrote:
top wc3 player? should probably have a name listed for credibility here since your forum name yields absolutely no results, no videos, etc when it should.


I believe he is cgz.perfect a mid-high level amatuer player I think he might of been improving alot before sc2 came out.

As for your choice I find terran the most fun but I dont think the amount of unit control terran requires will satisfy you either depending on how you play. However I agree with some of what you said and by the sounds of it terran would fit you well.. my advice is to switch !
MementoMori
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada419 Posts
December 09 2010 11:55 GMT
#51
Even though you're top 200, respectfully I've gotta question some of your OP. Although what you said might be true in the long run about ranged units vs melee(I'm not really sure what I think about that), there's plenty of things you can always improve on no matter your skill level. You might be microing zealots less than a player microing roaches, but lots of protoss units are quite microable at high levels. Colossus, high templars, phoenix, void rays, they could always be microed better no matter your skill. I'm not convinced that protoss has a lower skill ceiling. Even if you take your melee vs ranged example as fact, zealots are only one unit.
for the world is hollow and I have touched the sky
Gigaudas
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Sweden1213 Posts
December 09 2010 11:56 GMT
#52
On December 09 2010 20:43 Kyuki wrote:
I will keep saying that if you include balance within your reasoning as to what race you will play, you will regret it later if it does not fit your own playstyle and your own comfort, because once the tides changes and players adapt to different metagame changes and responses, you will fall over and die.



"The OP is arguing that some types of units will always be better at a top level as long as the game is balanced for casual players."

You don't agree with this, I do. I feel that the statistics that I posted work well to back up the arguments of the OP. Games that are perceived as balanced are unbalanced at a top level - and the imbalances are those that one would expect with the OPs arguments in mind.

In no way am I proving the points that OP made true and the statistics I posted do not prove imbalance. There are always too many variables to prove imbalance. But I feel that it hints at imbalances that can not be explained by the current meta game and that the imbalances (at a top level) are likely to last even through patching.

It sounds to me like the OP might want to take it into consideration when choosing his race.
I
Condor
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Netherlands188 Posts
December 09 2010 11:57 GMT
#53
Yeah, TL: DR is a pest that deserves to be exterminated. What, can't have a discussion with founded arguments (you know the ones that are not just oneliner vacuous talking points)?

Back on topic:
In Broodwar, Ret was known for having some of the best ZvT and TvZ for a non-Korean player. His understanding of the matchup was much better than most, probably also due to playing both sides of the matchup.

And finally, you are skilled with micro and macro, but you don't like some things in the matchup. Do you see opportunities for innovative play that you can create for yourself? I can start naming units, but I guess you thought about this for yourself?
MementoMori
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada419 Posts
December 09 2010 11:59 GMT
#54
On December 09 2010 20:57 Condor wrote:
Yeah, TL: DR is a pest that deserves to be exterminated. What, can't have a discussion with founded arguments (you know the ones that are not just oneliner vacuous talking points)?


Totally agree. Sorry to get off topic but I don't really see the point of it. If the original post is too long then don't participate in the discussion! The OP took time to write out his whole argument/point, you shouldn't respond if you didn't take the time to read it in my opinion. Plus anything you say after just skimming it over or reading a TL;DR might easily have already been covered by the OP.
for the world is hollow and I have touched the sky
Darren1337
Profile Joined October 2010
Ireland73 Posts
December 09 2010 12:03 GMT
#55
I think you confused micro with macro a lot. Stick with the race you're comfortable with. Who knows, Protoss might be perceived to be the new "op" race when the GSL is over. Maybe not.
Uniden!
TALegion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1187 Posts
December 09 2010 12:07 GMT
#56
I would say, "Play the race that you find the most fun," but I've been trying to that myself, and I've been doing terrible
Zerg to Protoss is really difficult for me, but I just like playing Brotoss SO much more.
A person willing to die for a cause is a hero. A person willing to kill for a cause is a madman
NearPerfection
Profile Joined October 2010
232 Posts
December 09 2010 12:12 GMT
#57
On December 09 2010 21:03 Darren1337 wrote:
I think you confused micro with macro a lot. Stick with the race you're comfortable with. Who knows, Protoss might be perceived to be the new "op" race when the GSL is over. Maybe not.



My definition of Micro/Macro

Micro: Unit control oriented - Unit positioning, Moving back damaged units. Using abilities to maximum efficiency, target firing.

Macro Building Control Oriented - Using resources most efficiently, producing units, producing buildings when needed etc.
MementoMori
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada419 Posts
December 09 2010 12:14 GMT
#58
On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
I enjoy microing more than macroing but my macro is quite good anyway thanks to Wc3.


I think people are referring to this. Seems like they're just reversed there.
for the world is hollow and I have touched the sky
NearPerfection
Profile Joined October 2010
232 Posts
December 09 2010 12:22 GMT
#59
On December 09 2010 21:14 MementoMori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
I enjoy microing more than macroing but my macro is quite good anyway thanks to Wc3.


I think people are referring to this. Seems like they're just reversed there.


Comparing Wc3 to Sc1 you would definitely have a strong point, but some things to take into account is that in Wc3 units that are training don't have a bar hovered over the building that tells you when something is finished. Secondly, at least the race i played in Wc3 had 3 seperate unit tech structures to macro off of. This is not so different in Sc2. 3rdly constantly producing workers is pretty simple because I have all my Nexus in 1 control group with rally points preset and i just press probe however many times as i have Nexus
Kyuki
Profile Joined February 2008
Sweden1867 Posts
December 09 2010 12:22 GMT
#60
On December 09 2010 20:56 Gigaudas wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2010 20:43 Kyuki wrote:
I will keep saying that if you include balance within your reasoning as to what race you will play, you will regret it later if it does not fit your own playstyle and your own comfort, because once the tides changes and players adapt to different metagame changes and responses, you will fall over and die.



"The OP is arguing that some types of units will always be better at a top level as long as the game is balanced for casual players."

You don't agree with this, I do. I feel that the statistics that I posted work well to back up the arguments of the OP. Games that are perceived as balanced are unbalanced at a top level - and the imbalances are those that one would expect with the OPs arguments in mind.

In no way am I proving the points that OP made true and the statistics I posted do not prove imbalance. There are always too many variables to prove imbalance. But I feel that it hints at imbalances that can not be explained by the current meta game and that the imbalances (at a top level) are likely to last even through patching.

It sounds to me like the OP might want to take it into consideration when choosing his race.


What? How can you say that, when you first admit that the things you are indeed provide are Hints at best.

You even claim that there is imbalance at top level, at the same time as you say it's too many variables to prove imbalance. The post is very contradicting.

Anyway, short term thinking will lead you to choose your race based upon what you percieve as balance, weather that is backed up by other peoples opinion or stats that is bound to change over a longer period of time. That is my opinion.
Mada Mada Dane
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 8 9 10 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 13h 59m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
JuggernautJason149
Nathanias 102
BRAT_OK 49
MindelVK 46
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1458
Larva 742
TY 183
sas.Sziky 36
Aegong 27
JulyZerg 7
Dota 2
capcasts90
Counter-Strike
fl0m2717
Stewie2K418
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu507
Other Games
tarik_tv5256
Grubby2464
FrodaN2308
Hui .303
oskar173
crisheroes144
Trikslyr59
Sick42
PPMD27
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 23 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 28
• poizon28 27
• tFFMrPink 12
• LUISG 9
• Adnapsc2 6
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 22
• FirePhoenix6
• HerbMon 1
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22252
• WagamamaTV951
League of Legends
• Nemesis4711
• Doublelift3190
Other Games
• imaqtpie1115
Upcoming Events
CranKy Ducklings
13h 59m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
17h 59m
CSO Cup
19h 59m
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
21h 59m
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
1d 12h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 17h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 21h
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Online Event
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.