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I've been on top 200 list since it started and cause of my RTS ability from Wc3 will probably stay on it for as long as i continue to play Sc2. I originally started off as Terran phase 2 beta, but i switched races because i really really don't like TvT. I enjoy microing more than macroing but my macro is quite good anyway thanks to Wc3. And there is no real micro involved in TvT at least when i played it (mass viking ball vs mass viking ball)
So i switched to Protoss, i always felt Protoss was the underpowered race and would probably always be the underpowered race because in my experience with Wc3. Higher hitpoint melee units are overpowered when the skill level of the players does not allow the ranged player to micro units away from the melee units. but at top level where people are really pushing the limits of race the ranged player always has an advantage.
However Sc2 is definitely balanced using some other philosophy or something because when you compare a zealot to a marine to say a grunt and an archer. in Wc3 the grunt has 700 hp and the archer has 135 hp, the grunts damage is 18-21 with a 50% bonus vs medium armor (archer) the archer does 8-9 damage with slightly faster attack rate but no bonus. attack move vs attack move grunts are going to own so hard its not funny, but when players push the limits of the race archers gain the definite edge. when comparing costs, archer is 120 gold while the grunt is 200.
Using this when you compare a zealot to a marine something fishy happens in terms of a wc3 players perspective on balance. while the grunt was 3 food and the archer was 2 food archers had a 3:2 ratio advantage in numbers. when in sc2 marines have a 2:1 ratio over zealots. even more strange is that the cost of 2 marines is = to the cost of 1 zealot.
Basically what i'm trying to say is that if sub high level diamond players could download a program that would automatically stutter step and kite for them the win % of protoss would go down drastically.
Looking at protoss from a top level perspective it's really difficult to see the advantages of playing it. Stalker's attack animation as well as its attack speed is far too long to benefit from stutter step type micro, zealots being melee do not respond to increases in skill level. I was forcefield + gaurdianshield 1a a few weeks after launch, and im still forcefield + gaurdianshield 1a 3-4 months after that. Yeah your macro will be better and you might have more zealots or more stalkers, but so is everyone else's macro.
The other issue between Protoss and Sc2 is the harassment aspect. because of the high cost and low dps of protoss units, that warp prism drop probably won't do enough damage to be justified. end game with psi storm and enough resources for dts warp prism does in fact justify its cost, but the vast majority of your games will not reach to that point. Also, the colossus attack animation makes it quite terrible when coupled with warp prism play, your risking a 300/200 unit that takes 75 seconds to build on its own in 100 life 40 shield 2.50 move speed warp prism? and even if you drop the colossus, there is quite a long delay for the damage to actually be dealt because you have to wait for the lancers to cross, harassment is just not viable  . Obviously if any top level protoss reads this paragraph they will be laughing colossi in a warp prism? lol! and yeah lol!
I originally thought the skill cap of Protoss was in the end higher because of abilities like graviton beam, forcefield, psi storm, feed back, but in reality Terran has the EMP AoE, and snipe aka feedback type ability + psi storm, Zerg have FG and corruption.
When PTR changes were announced i thought to myself oh my god, they are slightly decreasing the penalty for opening a non detection tech build by making the observer less costly, They are also lessoning the blow that on certain maps and positions i must build 2 observers 1 to see what actual tech tree a terran is going and the second one as an insurance policy just in case when my observer gets there and see a starport with a tech lab addon only for that pesky banshee to appear at your main on your minimap (gl surviving that one)  .
Also Oh my god they are slightly rolling back the nerf to attack damage that the unit was originally supposed to counter. and then yet again omg, Phoenix are going to be viable at top level as a counter to muta because FG won't affect them anymore on top of that i can now force zerg into hydralisk and spore crawlers where before mutalisks forced me into a much worse unit (blink stalker) and a much worse anti air defense (cannons).
Unfortunately, it looks like most of the changes in the PTR are going to be rolled back. In my opinion blizzard made quite a few mistakes with the PTR. First off the skill level of the PTR was generally alot higher than most people were used to on the main server, but the peak skill of the PTR was far lower. It got the point where it took quite a bit to find a game and i would play the same player 4-5 times in a row.
Secondly, the server wasn't Cross Region or even multiple region, I don't think ladder statistics are very good at all when trying to extrapolate "balance", but i think if statistics are going to be used they should sample more than 1 population especially when playstyles and strategies are so different across the regions.
Seeing how extremely vocal every single player is when it comes to patch changes.It really made me laugh when i read a forum topic Say NO to Hallucination Buff!, as if the platinum player ever really experienced someone going hallucination or if that hallucination owned him lol... Say no to observer buff!, say no to void ray buff! The only really game changing changes were the FG nerf and the Void ray flux viens removal. It changes the MU between PvZ because Z won't be able to keep mutaing anyway vs phoenix opening, and Protoss won't be able to mass void ray and deny expansions and get away.
Basically its quite clear that changes buffs to protoss are not tolerated among the majority of the player base because as stated above and lower levels of play Protoss is probably more powerful than any other race because of higher hit points and melee.
This leaves a decision to made.
A: Switch to Terran where higher skill level is greatly rewarded and the harassment capabilities keep terran fun and interesting. But the downside is learning TvZ and playing TvT for the above reasons stated before.
B. Switch to Zerg where beyond the mutalisk and Nydus worm harassment is not that effective. Also Skills honed from Wc3 Mastery do not directly transfer over so well with Zerg, as although micro does play a large roll in early to mid game, macro becomes far more important later on as well as unique zerg skills such as judging your army compared to theirs to know if you can engage or not, or distractracting that big ball of marines while flanking the siege tanks with speedlings. I've seen both Check and Moon decide to play Zerg. Watching Check micro lings against zealots etc gives me hope that not all my skills become useless when playing the "Macro" race.
C. Stay as protoss and wait for the skill level of top players is not mountains ahead of lower tier players so that when patches are released you don't get a mountain of QQ now i have to click more! QQ Protoss doesn't need a buff! they own me in my platinum league!
Hopefully this was interesting reading my perspective from a former top wc3 player to a sc2 protoss player train that could but crashed and burned etc.
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The brotherhood of the brotoss needs you! Yeah protoss is pretty good even in the mid diamond level, but playing on really low latency i can imagine makes a huge huge difference. If protoss didn't have forcefield, they would never win the early/mid game.
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switch to terran cause u'll never get anywhere playing toss.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 09 2010 19:04 Eminent Rising wrote:
switch to terran cause u'll never get anywhere playing toss.
Like oGsMC and HongUnPrime? 
Edit: My advice is simple; Play the race you feel the most comfortable with OR the race you think is the coolest
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Outch, such a big wall of text. I would say stay protoss.
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Yeah sorry about my wall, I just thought there was alot to say as alot of factors go into something as big as race changing.
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On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
However Sc2 is definitely balanced using some other philosophy or something because when you compare a zealot to a marine to say a grunt and an archer. in Wc3 the grunt has 700 hp and the archer has 135 hp, the grunts damage is 18-21 with a 50% bonus vs medium armor (archer) the archer does 8-9 damage with slightly faster attack rate but no bonus. attack move vs attack move grunts are going to own so hard its not funny, but when players push the limits of the race archers gain the definite edge. when comparing costs, archer is 120 gold while the grunt is 200.
Using this when you compare a zealot to a marine something fishy happens in terms of a wc3 players perspective on balance. while the grunt was 3 food and the archer was 2 food archers had a 3:2 ratio advantage in numbers. when in sc2 marines have a 2:1 ratio over zealots. even more strange is that the cost of 2 marines is = to the cost of 1 zealot.
So many of those numbers are wrong dude and archers do a bonus to light/unarmored 
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Blizzard is going to keep balancing the races back and forth, making each overpowered at some point or another, because the game itself has a lot of flawed things going on with it that simple number changes won't fix.
So I'd just say stay as Protoss because eventually they'll make a change to make it as the strongest race.
If one of your major reasons for changing races is because marines are ranged and zealots are melee that's kind of silly.
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On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
I enjoy microing more than macroing but my macro is quite good anyway thanks to Wc3.
WHAT?
On the race switch thing, I think you should just stick with whatever you like best. Cause at the end of the day, a better player always wins. I mean of course you can always warp in a pylon at your opponents base and start warping in DTs to win some games, but it's not rly solid play.
How I think this works is every player should know that basic solid just head-to-head gameplay. Building bases, building harvesters, building producing structures, building suppliers, getting upgrades and training units. Now when u master all those basic things. THEN u could warp that play into fancy paper. I mean when u have good knowledge of the solid gameplay then you can start adding some herassment, some drops, some micro intensity and just see how it goes.
For example. Jinro is just a very good and very solid player. Qxc also is very good solid player, but he sure likes his drops. Or with zergs: Take HayprO or IdrA, they both like to drone up as much as possible, but for example (as much as I have noticed from their games), IdrA likes his mutalisks more, and haypro goes ground army more often. But all this just sticks on the sides of that ball which is the basics of RTS.
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On December 09 2010 19:06 DNB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 19:04 Eminent Rising wrote:
switch to terran cause u'll never get anywhere playing toss. Like oGsMC and HongUnPrime? Edit: My advice is simple; Play the race you feel the most comfortable with OR the race you think is the coolest
Yeah, oGsMC is sooo good, and said he has a 95% winrate vs t
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On December 09 2010 19:09 Lyter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
However Sc2 is definitely balanced using some other philosophy or something because when you compare a zealot to a marine to say a grunt and an archer. in Wc3 the grunt has 700 hp and the archer has 135 hp, the grunts damage is 18-21 with a 50% bonus vs medium armor (archer) the archer does 8-9 damage with slightly faster attack rate but no bonus. attack move vs attack move grunts are going to own so hard its not funny, but when players push the limits of the race archers gain the definite edge. when comparing costs, archer is 120 gold while the grunt is 200.
Using this when you compare a zealot to a marine something fishy happens in terms of a wc3 players perspective on balance. while the grunt was 3 food and the archer was 2 food archers had a 3:2 ratio advantage in numbers. when in sc2 marines have a 2:1 ratio over zealots. even more strange is that the cost of 2 marines is = to the cost of 1 zealot.
So many of those numbers are wrong dude and archers do a bonus to light/unarmored
Ha well it has been 6 months since playing a single Wc3 game, bur rest assured i was definately in the top 10 in americans region. (real archer cost 130/10/2) real attack damage 10-11? been too long. real HP 245 everything else should be 100% accurate
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Since you're on top 200 list, you should be looking at whether or not you're having fun with the races cuz you'll easily be playing a lot more than some diamond player on ladder so if you're having fun with Protoss why change ?
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Id say if terran suits your type of play, dont hesitate; go back to them :-)
I play random from time to time and theres nothing like coming back to defensive macro oriented play (IE zerg). Thats how i like to play and thus, thats where im best
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On December 09 2010 19:18 b_unnies wrote:
Since you're on top 200 list, you should be looking at whether or not you're having fun with the races cuz you'll easily be playing a lot more than some diamond player on ladder so if you're having fun with Protoss why change ?
Cause i don't currently feel like my improvements in skill are being rewarded that heavily than if i were stutter stepping marines, or getting away with making less roach than i should because i can micro roach on creep so well.
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I'm assuming that English isn't your first language? The phrasing of much of that was rather odd.
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I used to love protoss as well, but i could not put up with the issues protoss has. I have been learning Terran recently and it is a different playstyle that i find more fun.
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I feel almost the same.
As I get higher (around top 300) its getting a lot harder and other races feel a lot stronger with all theirs ranges units and harass units. Its all because FF really kill the protoss race... but its what that make it alive...
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I definitely didn't read the whole thing, but Morrow did it. He had an okay amount of success switching races, but I still think he would have done better to remain Terran. However, if you think another race suits your style more, you should do it. Just don't do it if you think your race is underpowered. Everyone thinks their race is underpowered.
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On December 09 2010 19:22 NearPerfection wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 19:18 b_unnies wrote:
Since you're on top 200 list, you should be looking at whether or not you're having fun with the races cuz you'll easily be playing a lot more than some diamond player on ladder so if you're having fun with Protoss why change ? Cause i don't currently feel like my improvements in skill are being rewarded that heavily than if i were stutter stepping marines, or getting away with making less roach than i should because i can micro roach on creep so well.
and do you find that more fun than protoss?
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Play who you like, who you have a good feel for and who in general you enjoy.. everything else just doesnt matter. There is no race that is completely out of competitive play.
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It is NEVER too late to switch races, changing mains help you understand matchups vs your previous race way better.
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The game is only months old. This game will survive until sc3 and maybe even longer. If you are consistent top 200, then you won't have a problem. Do what you want to do. Don't regret anything.
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Terran macro all the way, i had a little crush on toss for awhile since they have so many hard counters, but at the end of the day everyone has a race that just feels right.
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Switching races because you don't like TvT is a terrible reason. ZvZ is worse, and PvP is FAR worse.
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I understand what you mean.
I am not gonna give my oppinion which will be just another post usless to you.
I will just say, that this game is young, like really young. Its perfect time to switch, even play random, try out races. And chose the one you feel most comfortable with.
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On December 09 2010 19:44 Uranium wrote:
Switching races because you don't like TvT is a terrible reason. ZvZ is worse, and PvP is FAR worse.
But at least ZvZ and PvP doesn't last very long :p
The main reason to go Terran imo is if you want to fight for first place in tournaments. This:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues
can not be explained by chance or player skill, it's clear that Terran is the strongest race at the top.
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Do what you want? Play random for a while and just get the feeling your after when playing the race and then stick to that.
Don't even talk balance.. It's really stupid. :/
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On December 09 2010 19:48 Kyuki wrote:
Don't even talk balance.. It's really stupid. :/
Why? A top200 player would surely have more fun if he was also getting far in regional tournaments. Winning is fun!
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On December 09 2010 19:32 .Theory wrote:
I definitely didn't read the whole thing, but Morrow did it. He had an okay amount of success switching races, but I still think he would have done better to remain Terran. However, if you think another race suits your style more, you should do it. Just don't do it if you think your race is underpowered. Everyone thinks their race is underpowered.
Terran is UP! :p ( just kidding for the flamers)
I shoudnt change race case of a micro problem. SC2 is more a macro game (State of the game 23!, not my words). But players like kiwikaki who can micro 4 blink stalkers vs 200/200 food army and still win, isnt that the kind of micro your looking for?
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Why dont you just play random? That'll get you high level practice will all the races and improve your gameplay with a deeper understanding of the races.
but this is probably the best time to switch race, since hte ladder is going to be reset soon. You have time to get good with your new race and it doesnt matter if you lose loads of games (not that it matters mcuh anyway)
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because there was no TL;DR, i'm going to assume my own...
play your "favorite" race.... if you play the imba race, GL with that because Starcraft is such a close game balance wise that you'll be switching race every patch.
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top wc3 player? should probably have a name listed for credibility here since your forum name yields absolutely no results, no videos, etc when it should.
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I was level 35 solo in war3 around 2007 (pretty mediocre) but let me say this:I disagree with you about Zerg. I agree that Terran is great for War3 and DOTA Players to use because of hte potential for marines to be orbwalked etc, but Zerg isn't htat dififcult either. The great thing about Z for War3 players is that macro is actually centralised. Once you get a feel for droning, I think Z is actually the least mechanically demanding between Z and T.
P just sucks tho you are abslutely right, for war3 players. It actually has the least micro potential, despite the units being "war3"ish.
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IMO just work on ur 4 gate, it has the ability to push you to the next level ( excluding macro). IMO switch is just a decision made on a whim and often times has nothing to do with the actual race since each race has to many different BOs and ways to be played.
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"zealots being melee do not respond to increases in skill level"
that made me laugh because it couldn't be further from the truth
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Ladder resets soon if you want to switch than switch.
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On December 09 2010 19:50 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 19:48 Kyuki wrote:
Don't even talk balance.. It's really stupid. :/ Why? A top200 player would surely have more fun if he was also getting far in regional tournaments. Winning is fun!
This is detrimental to development. What will you do when your race gets figured out and other races catches up within the metagame, and a balance change happens and what not. Will you swap race again and have top players with that race laugh at you? The further we get into this game the harder it'll get to catch up when you swap races.
This is the same bullshit that's going on when top players scream imba, and then a couple of weeks later the issues are resolved even without patching, and then patching happens and readjustments needs to occur again.
What is fun has nothing to do with it, ofc it's fun to win, but you will not be a longterm winner if you think in balance terms. You need to just play the race that you are comfortable with and play it out to the max. What I'm saying is; dont choose your race because it's more powerful in certain situations in the metagame, but choose your race based upon your playstyle, comfort and perhaps what you see as potential within the race. Any other decision will backfire eventually.
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On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
C. Stay as protoss and wait for the skill level of top players is not mountains ahead of lower tier players so that when patches are released you don't get a mountain of QQ now i have to click more! QQ Protoss doesn't need a buff! they own me in my platinum league!
awesome post. I actually agree with your reasoning.
as for your C-option. That will never happen : ) ppl are qqing even before they try PTR. I have no idea why but they do. It's like field of dreams.
"If we whine they will buff" and than something weird happen (God I hope blizzard will start explaining their patches)
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Yeah, that annoys me playing Protoss too. :<
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It's understandable that you want to play the "best" race in order to reach your full potential but if protoss is what you enjoy playing the most or what you think suits your style of play the best then stick to it. I played protoss in BW and I decided before anything had happened in SC2 that I was going to play toss there too (though I played random for a little while to get a feel for the other races). I'm not a skilled player so sometimes I get set too far back by muta harass or cloaked banshee or stimmed marauder drops and although this is frustrating for me I know that I still don't like terran and zerg just doesn't suit my playstyle, so I just stick to what I enjoy most!
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Stick to the race u think is the best! or the one u feel most comfortable with! At least protoss isnt that underpowered imo. Just check GSL protoss is doing well there at least. I think zerg got some issues atm but it will get there i guess.
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I think I will help you a lot with this decision. I too was a Warcraft 3 player. One of the best on the US Servers (1 billionth overall). So because of that I chose Protoss because it SEEMED like it was the most micro intensive race, but after playing it for 1,000 games, making the top 200. I learned that it really isn't. At least from my perspective Terran seems like you are rewarded from micro then any of the other races where as Zerg you are rewarded more for macro, and protoss you are rewarded more from Build Order Refinement and your caster units (how to forcefield, storm, ect). Thats just how I personally view the races. Its not to late to switch races, keep in mind we won't have a finished game till 2014 when Legacy of the Void comes out.
How i came to the decision to switch was i just stopped playing for a week. I thought about it, and after a while I realized terran just suits me more. However, i did fall of the top 200 pretty fucking hard though, so that sucks. But im getting it back.
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On December 09 2010 19:51 Keitzer wrote:
because there was no TL;DR, i'm going to assume my own...
play your "favorite" race.... if you play the imba race, GL with that because Starcraft is such a close game balance wise that you'll be switching race every patch.
anyone kind enough to explain to me what TL:DR is? Team Liquid: Database what?
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On December 09 2010 20:20 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 19:50 Gigaudas wrote:On December 09 2010 19:48 Kyuki wrote:
Don't even talk balance.. It's really stupid. :/ Why? A top200 player would surely have more fun if he was also getting far in regional tournaments. Winning is fun! This is detrimental to development. What will you do when your race gets figured out and other races catches up within the metagame, and a balance change happens and what not. Will you swap race again and have top players with that race laugh at you? The further we get into this game the harder it'll get to catch up when you swap races. This is the same bullshit that's going on when top players scream imba, and then a couple of weeks later the issues are resolved even without patching, and then patching happens and readjustments needs to occur again. What is fun has nothing to do with it, ofc it's fun to win, but you will not be a longterm winner if you think in balance terms. You need to just play the race that you are comfortable with and play it out to the max. What I'm saying is; dont choose your race because it's more powerful in certain situations in the metagame, but choose your race based upon your playstyle, comfort and perhaps what you see as potential within the race. Any other decision will backfire eventually.
The OP is arguing that some types of units will always be better at a top level as long as the game is balanced for casual players. If this is true, which I believe it is, then it's likely that a player would win more and enjoy the game more with a certain race.
Scroll through the pages here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/individual-leagues#tblt-3441-1-0-DESC
with this in mind: Protoss in Brood War was considered OP and easy-mode among D-C players on ICCUP. Someone ranked C on ICCUP in Brood War was definitely on a skill level comparable to top Diamond in SC2. Now, count the Protoss players in the above link.
I've already posted this but, look at the winners in the SC2-tournaments registered by tl.net:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-6363-1-0-DESC
Count the Terran players. At the same time there is a general consensus that the game is decently balanced because that is how it feels to the average player.
That last link hints at an even worse balance if you consider that the Zerg/Protoss players have a large portion of their wins in show matches and KotH-formats.
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On December 09 2010 19:22 Melancholia wrote:
I'm assuming that English isn't your first language? The phrasing of much of that was rather odd.
Why does it matter? He made his point just fine and posting just to point out "I don't think you're native language is english" is stupid. There are a lot of people who don't speak english as their native language and mistakes will be made. Who cares.
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On December 09 2010 20:33 NearPerfection wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 19:51 Keitzer wrote:
because there was no TL;DR, i'm going to assume my own...
play your "favorite" race.... if you play the imba race, GL with that because Starcraft is such a close game balance wise that you'll be switching race every patch. anyone kind enough to explain to me what TL:DR is? Team Liquid: Database what?
Too Long, Didnt Read.
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On December 09 2010 20:35 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 20:20 Kyuki wrote:On December 09 2010 19:50 Gigaudas wrote:On December 09 2010 19:48 Kyuki wrote:
Don't even talk balance.. It's really stupid. :/ Why? A top200 player would surely have more fun if he was also getting far in regional tournaments. Winning is fun! This is detrimental to development. What will you do when your race gets figured out and other races catches up within the metagame, and a balance change happens and what not. Will you swap race again and have top players with that race laugh at you? The further we get into this game the harder it'll get to catch up when you swap races. This is the same bullshit that's going on when top players scream imba, and then a couple of weeks later the issues are resolved even without patching, and then patching happens and readjustments needs to occur again. What is fun has nothing to do with it, ofc it's fun to win, but you will not be a longterm winner if you think in balance terms. You need to just play the race that you are comfortable with and play it out to the max. What I'm saying is; dont choose your race because it's more powerful in certain situations in the metagame, but choose your race based upon your playstyle, comfort and perhaps what you see as potential within the race. Any other decision will backfire eventually. The OP is arguing that some types of units will always be better at a top level as long as the game is balanced for casual players. If this is true, which I believe it is, then it's likely that a player would win more and enjoy the game more with a certain race. Scroll through the pages here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/individual-leagues#tblt-3441-1-0-DESCwith this in mind: Protoss in Brood War was considered OP and easy-mode among D-C players on ICCUP. Someone ranked C on ICCUP in Brood War was definitely on a skill level comparable to top Diamond in SC2. Now, count the Protoss players in the above link. I've already posted this but, look at the winners in the SC2-tournaments registered by tl.net: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-6363-1-0-DESCCount the Terran players. At the same time there is a general consensus that the game is decently balanced because that how it feels to the average player. That last link hints at an even worse balance if you consider that the Zerg/Protoss players have a large portion of their wins in show matches and KotH-formats.
And I disagree completely. You can surely argue about these things, but it isnt anything else but theorycraft, especially in this game since it's so young. If you lean back on statistics like this you will fall over and die when they change. I don't care if this is the case Atm, tides will change and always have.
All the info you post is pretty useless when you think longterm, which I would do if I wanted to play this game for more than just 1 expansion at a higher level.
I never stated that the game is balanced or that there is no issues. Weather that is the case or not just is not important since THIS game is so new still. You see major changes coming with each patch, and you also see development in the actual games from all the different races.
I will keep saying that if you include balance within your reasoning as to what race you will play, you will regret it later if it does not fit your own playstyle and your own comfort, because once the tides changes and players adapt to different metagame changes and responses, you will fall over and die.
He/she asked a question and I'm responding to what I belive is the better way to view this longterm, and you disagreeing is completely fine with me, but I don't think you're making a case more than just presenting a bunch of numbers that tries to explain balance, which in itself is quite absurd imo.
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stalkers can out micro marines and roaches, i don't really understand, every race has units that require micro
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play the most OP one :p
switch at every patch.
pro like morrow and tlo have switch, it's so in. :D
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On December 09 2010 19:51 TheOne85 wrote:
top wc3 player? should probably have a name listed for credibility here since your forum name yields absolutely no results, no videos, etc when it should.
I believe he is cgz.perfect a mid-high level amatuer player I think he might of been improving alot before sc2 came out.
As for your choice I find terran the most fun but I dont think the amount of unit control terran requires will satisfy you either depending on how you play. However I agree with some of what you said and by the sounds of it terran would fit you well.. my advice is to switch !
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Even though you're top 200, respectfully I've gotta question some of your OP. Although what you said might be true in the long run about ranged units vs melee(I'm not really sure what I think about that), there's plenty of things you can always improve on no matter your skill level. You might be microing zealots less than a player microing roaches, but lots of protoss units are quite microable at high levels. Colossus, high templars, phoenix, void rays, they could always be microed better no matter your skill. I'm not convinced that protoss has a lower skill ceiling. Even if you take your melee vs ranged example as fact, zealots are only one unit.
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On December 09 2010 20:43 Kyuki wrote:
I will keep saying that if you include balance within your reasoning as to what race you will play, you will regret it later if it does not fit your own playstyle and your own comfort, because once the tides changes and players adapt to different metagame changes and responses, you will fall over and die.
"The OP is arguing that some types of units will always be better at a top level as long as the game is balanced for casual players."
You don't agree with this, I do. I feel that the statistics that I posted work well to back up the arguments of the OP. Games that are perceived as balanced are unbalanced at a top level - and the imbalances are those that one would expect with the OPs arguments in mind.
In no way am I proving the points that OP made true and the statistics I posted do not prove imbalance. There are always too many variables to prove imbalance. But I feel that it hints at imbalances that can not be explained by the current meta game and that the imbalances (at a top level) are likely to last even through patching.
It sounds to me like the OP might want to take it into consideration when choosing his race.
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Yeah, TL: DR is a pest that deserves to be exterminated. What, can't have a discussion with founded arguments (you know the ones that are not just oneliner vacuous talking points)?
Back on topic:
In Broodwar, Ret was known for having some of the best ZvT and TvZ for a non-Korean player. His understanding of the matchup was much better than most, probably also due to playing both sides of the matchup.
And finally, you are skilled with micro and macro, but you don't like some things in the matchup. Do you see opportunities for innovative play that you can create for yourself? I can start naming units, but I guess you thought about this for yourself?
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On December 09 2010 20:57 Condor wrote:
Yeah, TL: DR is a pest that deserves to be exterminated. What, can't have a discussion with founded arguments (you know the ones that are not just oneliner vacuous talking points)?
Totally agree. Sorry to get off topic but I don't really see the point of it. If the original post is too long then don't participate in the discussion! The OP took time to write out his whole argument/point, you shouldn't respond if you didn't take the time to read it in my opinion. Plus anything you say after just skimming it over or reading a TL;DR might easily have already been covered by the OP.
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I think you confused micro with macro a lot. Stick with the race you're comfortable with. Who knows, Protoss might be perceived to be the new "op" race when the GSL is over. Maybe not.
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I would say, "Play the race that you find the most fun," but I've been trying to that myself, and I've been doing terrible
Zerg to Protoss is really difficult for me, but I just like playing Brotoss SO much more.
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On December 09 2010 21:03 Darren1337 wrote:
I think you confused micro with macro a lot. Stick with the race you're comfortable with. Who knows, Protoss might be perceived to be the new "op" race when the GSL is over. Maybe not.
My definition of Micro/Macro
Micro: Unit control oriented - Unit positioning, Moving back damaged units. Using abilities to maximum efficiency, target firing.
Macro Building Control Oriented - Using resources most efficiently, producing units, producing buildings when needed etc.
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On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
I enjoy microing more than macroing but my macro is quite good anyway thanks to Wc3.
I think people are referring to this. Seems like they're just reversed there.
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On December 09 2010 21:14 MementoMori wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
I enjoy microing more than macroing but my macro is quite good anyway thanks to Wc3. I think people are referring to this. Seems like they're just reversed there.
Comparing Wc3 to Sc1 you would definitely have a strong point, but some things to take into account is that in Wc3 units that are training don't have a bar hovered over the building that tells you when something is finished. Secondly, at least the race i played in Wc3 had 3 seperate unit tech structures to macro off of. This is not so different in Sc2. 3rdly constantly producing workers is pretty simple because I have all my Nexus in 1 control group with rally points preset and i just press probe however many times as i have Nexus
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On December 09 2010 20:56 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 20:43 Kyuki wrote:
I will keep saying that if you include balance within your reasoning as to what race you will play, you will regret it later if it does not fit your own playstyle and your own comfort, because once the tides changes and players adapt to different metagame changes and responses, you will fall over and die.
"The OP is arguing that some types of units will always be better at a top level as long as the game is balanced for casual players." You don't agree with this, I do. I feel that the statistics that I posted work well to back up the arguments of the OP. Games that are perceived as balanced are unbalanced at a top level - and the imbalances are those that one would expect with the OPs arguments in mind. In no way am I proving the points that OP made true and the statistics I posted do not prove imbalance. There are always too many variables to prove imbalance. But I feel that it hints at imbalances that can not be explained by the current meta game and that the imbalances (at a top level) are likely to last even through patching. It sounds to me like the OP might want to take it into consideration when choosing his race.
What? How can you say that, when you first admit that the things you are indeed provide are Hints at best.
You even claim that there is imbalance at top level, at the same time as you say it's too many variables to prove imbalance. The post is very contradicting.
Anyway, short term thinking will lead you to choose your race based upon what you percieve as balance, weather that is backed up by other peoples opinion or stats that is bound to change over a longer period of time. That is my opinion.
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As long as one race has a range advantage then it will always be possible for that race to out micro the other races, as long as movement speed is at a reasonable rate.
Splitting marines apart vs zealots and that sort of thing.
So if it helps, i think you are correct to play to your strong point. Terran have naturally efficient units and good/great micro can take them to absurd levels, especially if your just playing on ladder.
And really.. since you are just on ladder atm and not entering into high level tournaments, race swapping is exactly what you SHOULD be doing if you are at the top end of ladder.
Learning the match up inside and out is so important, and there really is no down side to doing it on the ladder, unless you view ladder as some sort of competitive environment, as opposed to the sub par practise tool that it is, (compared to group practise with good named players + discussion and feedback).
Do crazy stuff on the ladder. Nobody has heard of you just because you are top200, and nobody cares ;D Win some tournaments and people will know your name. Until then, experiment, race swap and find out if your preconceptions of the races are true.
Search in your heart, for you know it to be true.
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Is it too late?
MorroW.
Pick what you think is best for you.
Good Luck!
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Boxer switched races, from protoss to terran, months after the first expansion for Starcraft 1 was released. Now he's the emperor of terran. What can race switching do for you?
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This is stupidly biased. Blink stalkers are superior to hydralisks in everyway possible. Colossi rape them so badly; what does zerg have that rape blink stalkers half as badly? And honestly, you're comparing cannons to spore crawlers? Can a few spore crawlers make that 3rd/4th expansion of yours invulnerable the way cannons can?
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Switch to random. We need more good random players. And you don't have to make a choice.
On a more serious note, there has been a post here on teamliquid that you may find interesting:
+ Show Spoiler +
This guy is talking about the skill ceiling of races, of witch he considers terran to have the higest.
Personally I'd say go for the switch, if you're that good it won't be much of a problem to switch back anyway, and you might learn some things on the way.
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Hmm I'm leaning toward switching to Terran, since they have such great early game and every game has an early game I think it would be most fun. and also skill rewarding.
The problem i have with switching to random is that random is basically the cheese selection because you can't devote as much time to the long and drawn out details you just cheese 1 build as a race per race.
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heh well although i feel that protoss is the best race, i think that you can catchup pretty fast especially in tvp pvt because you should know that matchup really well already, the other races might take a while, maybe in a month or so you will be back to where you were before, depending how good you are now and how fast you learn ^^
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Sorry OP, but a lot of your post was either false or irrelevant. Stick to toss.
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There is a good chance that the greatest starcraft 2 player of all time does not even have begun to play the game... and yet he will join the scene someday and then he will start his race to the top and will dominate the scene forever(ok for a long time)... just like Flash did in SC1.
What do we learn from that assumption: There is always a chance for sombody to overtake the competition even though it looks like all the top spots are already taken...
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On December 09 2010 22:41 Cephei wrote:
Sorry OP, but a lot of your post was either false or irrelevant. Stick to toss.
Agree.
As a former wc3 player, i must say you were horribly wrong about grunt/archer and macro.
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I really think you need to stop comparing SC2 to WC3 and instead play all three races to find out what feels the best for you. Analyzing it like this is just going in circles, since, by design, every race has pros and cons.
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I don't understand the point of this. You can switch at any time; why would it ever be too late? It's like a page of text with questionably accurate comparisons/statements that hardly affect the original question about "can I switch," when the answer is obviously yes.
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Basically what i'm trying to say is that if sub high level diamond players could download a program that would automatically stutter step and kite for them the win % of protoss would go down drastically.
The whole OP is about protoss being UP with good control, but you blame most of it on the ability to stutter step which could only possibly affect PvT since protoss units outrange almost all zerg units except the hydra for which they are much, much faster off creep.
You also make a lot of assumptions for how they decided to roll back changes from the PTR. I understand you're a good player, but I don't know if you're using your race to its full potential. If your control comes form wc3, you should probably be trying a sentry-heavy style. You can't run away from a zealot when there's a ff behind you. I understand executing this style can be hard, but that doesn't mean if done properly it's not ridiculously good.
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Z is perhaps considered a macro race but look at Madfrog for an instance.
He use insane micro all game long and is a freaking awsome player.
And no its never too late to change race(if you wish to do so)
But when the ladde reset kicks you can try to go random so you don't have to pick untill you know which race you want the most.
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You're in the top 200? I'm jealous. I think you should win a Craft Cup before you switch races. until you can do that, don't switch D:
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On December 09 2010 21:43 PimpMobeel wrote:
This is stupidly biased. Blink stalkers are superior to hydralisks in everyway possible. Colossi rape them so badly; what does zerg have that rape blink stalkers half as badly? And honestly, you're comparing cannons to spore crawlers? Can a few spore crawlers make that 3rd/4th expansion of yours invulnerable the way cannons can?
I don't know where you're getting your information from, but my hydras always own blink stalkers.
what does zerg have to rape bling stalkers? fungal growth and aforementioned hydras.
No a few spine crawlers can't make the 3rd/4th invulnerable, but 8 or 9 can.
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if it would be to late to switch, then it would be to late to start also.
so only ppl which bought the game at the start or played since beta have chances to become good?
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DON'T BETRAY THE MOTHER RACE!!!
FOR EIUR!!!!
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hmm, i would wait for the incoming patch. the build time reduction for phoenixes will likely make them much more feasible, and they are a unit that rewards micro, multitasking and apm quite a lot. i think a war3 player will like phoenix play a lot. they also provide a nice harass option.
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Kyrgyz Republic1462 Posts
I believe that SC is not about micro or macro as individual skills, it's all about multitasking which is what makes it very different to War3. For example, a straight up warp prism drop + warp-in is not very effective, but if you do that while engaging your opponent elsewhere it will be much more effective because you just can't dance your marines in several places at once while keeping production going.
Other than that I think there are rarely simple melee vs ranged micro battles and kiting/step-microing is not really the ultimate skill except when trying to abuse the early game. Taking your zealot vs marine example, you obviously are never going to engage in such fights unless you can nullify the marines' ranged advantage using forcefields, flanking, or ranged units of your own.
Overall it sounds like you want to find the race with the most abusable features, but I think this approach will take you nowhere in the long run. Abusable features will get patched (e.g. repairing scvs) or people will eventually learn to better counter them forcing you to play straight up macro games, and in such games it is not the race but your skill that is more important, therefore I think it is wisest to stick with the race whose mechanics feel more comfortable to you. And of course it is never too late to change, too late for what exactly? It's not like you are about to win a GSL in the nearest future.
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On December 09 2010 23:36 canSore wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 21:43 PimpMobeel wrote:
This is stupidly biased. Blink stalkers are superior to hydralisks in everyway possible. Colossi rape them so badly; what does zerg have that rape blink stalkers half as badly? And honestly, you're comparing cannons to spore crawlers? Can a few spore crawlers make that 3rd/4th expansion of yours invulnerable the way cannons can? I don't know where you're getting your information from, but my hydras always own blink stalkers. what does zerg have to rape bling stalkers? fungal growth and aforementioned hydras. No a few spine crawlers can't make the 3rd/4th invulnerable, but 8 or 9 can.
I didn't say they didn't. You have completely missed the point. I just said blink stalkers are just a much superior unit to hydralisks purely by virtue of the fact at just how badly they get raped by colossi since your post was about being forced into one unit or other.
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I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad.
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On December 09 2010 23:58 GoldenH wrote:
I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad.
DONT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON *ARGH/)(!"/#)(/!"#(&!"#%*
It just can't be more wrong, if you don't belive that bigger maps (which will happen) and more macro oriented play wont effect a good high APM Protoss, then you're clueless. Unit positioning is pretty much the most important for protoss out of all races, or atleast hardest, and is something that you will pretty much always loose games due to having bad of (strange sentence I know).
The potential in the warp prism and warpgates in general is sick... There will always be room for improvement for players with all races imo.
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It's never too late to change the race.
I am not a diamond player and it doesn't feel right for me to be questioning a top 200 player. While bearing this in mind, I'd like to throw in here the idea that protoss community as a whole is not playing the right, or optimal, way.
I feel I could do a lot better myself, I will soon hit 500 games played and I am still confused as to what to do with the protoss. I see very little intelligent protoss play, so I have hard time finding any role models. Watching GSL protoss play I just can't help but feel that their gameplay is very gimmicky.
So what's my point here? It seems to me that protoss as a race seems to be very confused as to what to do. You say terran and zerg have way higher skill ceiling than what protoss does? Well I feel exacly the opposite. I feel there are TOO MANY things for me to consider and that my skills are just not good enough for controlling the race properly (and that's why I lose). Blink stalkers and sentries seem to have almost infinity skill ceiling. The managment of army consisting of blink stalkers, zealots, sentries and colossi also seems to have extremely high skill ceiling yet I see even pros moving them in huge blobs, almost like they were a single control group.
You may choose to change race if you wish, but it seems to me that even the top protoss still have a lot to improve. I definately do.
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Unless you plan on going pro keep playing the race you LIKE/LOVE to play.
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On December 09 2010 19:06 DNB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 19:04 Eminent Rising wrote:
switch to terran cause u'll never get anywhere playing toss. Like oGsMC and HongUnPrime? Edit: My advice is simple; Play the race you feel the most comfortable with OR the race you think is the coolest
I hope this isn't a spoiler beyond the RO4!
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On December 10 2010 00:10 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 23:58 GoldenH wrote:
I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad. DONT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON *ARGH/)(!"/#)(/!"#(&!"#%* It just can't be more wrong, if you don't belive that bigger maps (which will happen) and more macro oriented play wont effect a good high APM Protoss, then you're clueless. Unit positioning is pretty much the most important for protoss out of all races, or atleast hardest, and is something that you will pretty much always loose games due to having bad of (strange sentence I know). The potential in the warp prism and warpgates in general is sick... There will always be room for improvement for players with all races imo.
Lol, why can't. He listen to me?
Look, obviously protoss reareds some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you'veastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then
Unlike some posters here I'm not saying that protoss cant win, I'm sure the race can be competative, but simply that there is less to master. All the things that protoss can use help the other races as well. Do you think terrans cant profit from macro or zergs cant profit from saving low health units? Think again. But both races have far more to master that can make them great.
Look at zerg in the original starcraft. For a lon time everyone thought they were up because protoss and terran were so easy to get good at. But everyone recognized the potential for zerg spellcasters. There just was no player good enough to use that. Then eventually there was players that were good enough and zerg became the premier race. Eventually terran and protoss caught up.
But the difference between zer in sc1 and protoss in sc2 is that there is no unit or ability that protoss has that players are not good enough to use. People talk about warp prisms but do you honestly think they haven't been tried? I even run into warp prism play from plat players for goodness sake. No. There is no protoss ability that players aren't good enough to use. There are only protoss tactics that son't have the potential to make a difference when used at the highest level of skill.
And that is why you should switch from protoss. Yes eventually protoss may be figured out or a patch will be released that lets players benefit from their skill. But you will not hone those skills by playing protoss in its present state. You should switch races, and become a better gamer, . Then when protoss is fixed decide if you want to switch back.
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I think you are being hasty. The game is out less than 6 months and already you expect every strategy and aspect of the game to be balanced? Most zerg players don't even use the race correctly (for example, as demonstrated by how easily idra was able to steamroll Select because he couldn't find a decent zerg practice partner).
You say 1a forcefield is your main strategy because you don't typically get to the late game. Well that's true of any race early game, you're not gonna have gosu micro with just t1 or t1.5 units. If you want to micro more then you should play for the late game and find ways to make it to templar/dt/etc that let you micro more, even if it means not pushing when you could win.
And if you really dislike protoss anymore, then why not switch races? Sure you'll fall on the ladder while you learn, but is your ego really worth continuing to play a race you don't enjoy/don't believe can be effective anymore?
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Play the race you feel comfortable with. I was Terran for a long time then I swapped to zerg. I like the macro mechanics and "insta" respawn of your army. I never could get timings right with Protoss.
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Sorry fBor any typotw I am on an android phone.
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If you want to change races do it because you are not comfortable with the one you are playing, don't do it because a race is dominant. Regarding the switch being too late, the game has been out for less than a year, you will obviouly be able to catch up on strategy and practice will help you get better with the control, macro and micro of the new race you pick.
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On December 10 2010 00:53 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 00:10 Kyuki wrote:On December 09 2010 23:58 GoldenH wrote:
I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad. DONT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON *ARGH/)(!"/#)(/!"#(&!"#%* It just can't be more wrong, if you don't belive that bigger maps (which will happen) and more macro oriented play wont effect a good high APM Protoss, then you're clueless. Unit positioning is pretty much the most important for protoss out of all races, or atleast hardest, and is something that you will pretty much always loose games due to having bad of (strange sentence I know). The potential in the warp prism and warpgates in general is sick... There will always be room for improvement for players with all races imo. Lol, why can't. He listen to me? Look, obviously protoss reareds some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you'veastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then Unlike some posters here I'm not saying that protoss cant win, I'm sure the race can be competative, but simply that there is less to master. All the things that protoss can use help the other races as well. Do you think terrans cant profit from macro or zergs cant profit from saving low health units? Think again. But both races have far more to master that can make them great. Look at zerg in the original starcraft. For a lon time everyone thought they were up because protoss and terran were so easy to get good at. But everyone recognized the potential for zerg spellcasters. There just was no player good enough to use that. Then eventually there was players that were good enough and zerg became the premier race. Eventually terran and protoss caught up. But the difference between zer in sc1 and protoss in sc2 is that there is no unit or ability that protoss has that players are not good enough to use. People talk about warp prisms but do you honestly think they haven't been tried? I even run into warp prism play from plat players for goodness sake. No. There is no protoss ability that players aren't good enough to use. There are only protoss tactics that son't have the potential to make a difference when used at the highest level of skill. And that is why you should switch from protoss. Yes eventually protoss may be figured out or a patch will be released that lets players benefit from their skill. But you will not hone those skills by playing protoss in its present state. You should switch races, and become a better gamer, . Then when protoss is fixed decide if you want to switch back.
How do P players not benefit from skill? Protoss is the same as BW, you can't just 1a2a3a into a minefield or into a lurker contain, but you gotta have good micro to diffuse the various situations. The only reasons P players get shafted a lot is because their play always revolves around Robo units since you needs obs to counter banshees, and collo to counter mass hydra play, and immortals to help against roaches since for some reason they rape stalkers who dont have sentry support. The upcoming patch will allow for faster massing of pheonixes which could give protoss some earlier harassment options. I also think it'll freshen up PvP since they could be used to snipe collossi if they are in a big enough mass, which the lower build time will make much easier.
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Re: Harassment aspect
I've been thinking about this a lot, and I really try to make a harassment oriented protoss play work. I have a fair amount of success from time to time, but it just feels forced. Terran are just so much more flexible in that regard.
Most of the time, they tech to starports FOR medivacs, which augments their army AND opens up drop possibilities. Protoss techs to robo for immortal/collosus, and then have stop production and go out of their way to make prisms. Medivacs are also amazing even if you're not doing drops. Prisms... not so much. The warp-in functionality is supposed to make drops better, but it ends up forcing you to suicide units instead of being able to load them all up and fly away like terran can.
On top of that, terran transitions are so much smoother. A banshee transition is just an addon swap away from medivac production. For protoss, a transition from prism harass to something like phoenix or VR (or templar tech, for that matter) is a completely different tech direction.
Protoss can harass, but the limiting factor is their flexibility. A 1/1/1 just doesn't work like it does for terran. The biggest thing a strategy like warp-prism harass has going for it is that nobody expects it, because you never see it.
But to answer your question: No, it's not too late to switch races. I'm probably switching to Terran because of the above observations. I like harassment oriented play, so rather than continuing to try to force protoss to what I want them to be, I'd rather go to Terran, which I know can bring me a playstyle I enjoy. I'm all for innovation of playstyle, but if it's not fun, don't do it.
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It is never too late to change races.
I don't see why some people are so worried about it. It really comes down to your mindset (I've been saying that word a lot recently) and how you go about the game.
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I started out playing Zerg cuz i thought they would be fun, found out otherwise, switched to Terran cuz I thought they were cooler, and they're a lot of fun... basically, I play the race I think has the biggest BAMF ratio, and whose playstyle I like the most and go with that. If you're down with Toss, and wanna give them a shot, try some Toss play vs some Very Hard or Insane (if you think you can handle it) level AI, and try out some Build Orders and stuff. Your Terran skill isn't going to disappear if you try out another race, so just give them a shot, and if it doesn't pan out, it doesn't pan out. No harm in investigating.
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Canada13389 Posts
never too late to switch races as others have said but it will be sad to see more protoss go Im only platinum but I find having a warp prism on the high ground to warp in HTs and storm from above is pretty fun and wonky. But again, this relies on the T or Z not having air units :S.
I agree with a lot of the skill ceiling thing as well since anyone plat up is decent at using storm and forcefield and other spells its just how well you apply them and thats where skill comes in. I think that if the Protoss play style doesn't seem attractive to you and you want to drop and harass go Terran by all means and try to move away from tank viking play.
But keep in mind that mirror matchups do devolve into a common metagame play a lot. PvP in my experience is 4 gate into DT or 4 Gate or collossus wars :S I have bene trying new stuff like the SangHo 4gate expand build which is ok and immortal voidray which is just super fun.
So my advice is try a few games with the other races and see if their play styles fit with you better and go from there but dont think its too late I mean Sc2 if its anything like BW will be around forever and 6 months is a drop in the bucket. Of course you will fall off the top200 probably right after a switch depending on where you are in the top 200
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I agree with most things OP say´s. In a straight macro game, T has so much options than P. Some T complain about lategame, but just check late PvT jinro or piqliq styles. I'm not qqing about imbalances, no. I just agree that T has more variety. And for in-game creative players (is not that easy to be creative IN-GAME), P is not the race to play. T has so so many harass options, even zerg has cheap run-by posibilities with speedlings or speedling drops. That's definitely the main P weakness.
If you feel it, take the big step, and do it.
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im pretty sure the archer has more than 135 hp, other than that i agree with a lot of what the op said, especially about micro not being rewarding enough.
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On December 10 2010 01:43 craz3d wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 00:53 GoldenH wrote:On December 10 2010 00:10 Kyuki wrote:On December 09 2010 23:58 GoldenH wrote:
I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad. DONT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON *ARGH/)(!"/#)(/!"#(&!"#%* It just can't be more wrong, if you don't belive that bigger maps (which will happen) and more macro oriented play wont effect a good high APM Protoss, then you're clueless. Unit positioning is pretty much the most important for protoss out of all races, or atleast hardest, and is something that you will pretty much always loose games due to having bad of (strange sentence I know). The potential in the warp prism and warpgates in general is sick... There will always be room for improvement for players with all races imo. Lol, why can't. He listen to me? Look, obviously protoss reareds some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you'veastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then Unlike some posters here I'm not saying that protoss cant win, I'm sure the race can be competative, but simply that there is less to master. All the things that protoss can use help the other races as well. Do you think terrans cant profit from macro or zergs cant profit from saving low health units? Think again. But both races have far more to master that can make them great. Look at zerg in the original starcraft. For a lon time everyone thought they were up because protoss and terran were so easy to get good at. But everyone recognized the potential for zerg spellcasters. There just was no player good enough to use that. Then eventually there was players that were good enough and zerg became the premier race. Eventually terran and protoss caught up. But the difference between zer in sc1 and protoss in sc2 is that there is no unit or ability that protoss has that players are not good enough to use. People talk about warp prisms but do you honestly think they haven't been tried? I even run into warp prism play from plat players for goodness sake. No. There is no protoss ability that players aren't good enough to use. There are only protoss tactics that son't have the potential to make a difference when used at the highest level of skill. And that is why you should switch from protoss. Yes eventually protoss may be figured out or a patch will be released that lets players benefit from their skill. But you will not hone those skills by playing protoss in its present state. You should switch races, and become a better gamer, . Then when protoss is fixed decide if you want to switch back. How do P players not benefit from skill? Protoss is the same as BW, you can't just 1a2a3a into a minefield or into a lurker contain, but you gotta have good micro to diffuse the various situations. The only reasons P players get shafted a lot is because their play always revolves around Robo units since you needs obs to counter banshees, and collo to counter mass hydra play, and immortals to help against roaches since for some reason they rape stalkers who dont have sentry support. The upcoming patch will allow for faster massing of pheonixes which could give protoss some earlier harassment options. I also think it'll freshen up PvP since they could be used to snipe collossi if they are in a big enough mass, which the lower build time will make much easier.
to repeat, "Look, obviously protoss requires some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you've mastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then"
You really can't do a lot of micro with Protoss other races can. Yes of course you can micro your units to keep them alive, but you can't micro your units TO WIN... either your units are able to win in a fight or they aren't, no amount of clicking will make zealots run faster, or stalkers do more DPS, or colossus dodge viking shots.
Meanwhile microing terran bio and zerg roach/ling/muta etc has more destructive potential, Protoss is only able to be prepared, it can take a lot of skill to always be prepared, but if the other player is equally prepared, you cannot then have a micro war. It makes Protoss very 1 dimensional and means that there is not a lot of improvement to be had.
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Sc2 is still very in its infancy (I hope so, anyway). It's nowhere close to being too late to change.
A wc3 example which will hopefully be familiar to you: Grubby played Night Elf for ~1 year before switching.
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On December 09 2010 19:39 Kaniol wrote:
It is NEVER too late to switch races, changing mains help you understand matchups vs your previous race way better.
man, change to whatever race suits your personality/character
it's never too early, too late or too often
as for learning vs your previous races, it's so true
in SC1 i switched from zerg to terran and could beat B+ zergs on iCCup,
best mathcup was TvZ, then TvT, then PvZ (i played protoss the worst)
whenever i played zerg (didn't fully switch), best matchup was ZvT, then ZvZ, then ZvP
i always hated mirrors in ZvZ and TvT, but really, not knowing protoss made me worst in both TvP and ZvP.
my advice to you is change your race, get a feel of how other races are and you can always change back if you hate it. this way you get to know your enemy.
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Stick with protoss man, hang in there. But I think just playing some casual games as the other races might help sate your wonderlust
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I have a sc2 Terran shirt. Enough said.
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if you benefit from very good mechanics, protoss is a pretty poor race to pick.
I have to agree with goldenh, there's skill in playing toss, but generally, they are way easier mechanically than zerg or terran. Protoss play is rewarded by a very safe turtle style, and the skill is knowing timings, builds, and unit compositions. But mechanically, there's just not a lot to do with them. That's why you see top level pros with all their protoss units in 1 control group and sometimes you see high level protoss players with sub 100 apm. I can't imagine trying to play tvz with 90 apm, that would be suicide. Both zerg and terran benefit greatly from fantastic micro skills.
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On December 10 2010 03:00 GoldenH wrote:
You really can't do a lot of micro with Protoss other races can. Yes of course you can micro your units to keep them alive, but you can't micro your units TO WIN...
This quote is just too much. Whats the difference, exactly?
Why do protoss micro anything at all then, just for fun? Why place forcefields, why blink stalkers, why micro colossi out of harms way... If you cant win by doing it?
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I was a top gold player with horrid micro skills that got there with Toss. I could not stand getting marines all in at my base. "FF the ramp you noob" well, that is true, I can only use maybe 3 FF before I run out and then they just turtle up by my ramp and blast away.
So, now I play T, it has been a bumpy road getting there, but my micro is much better now and marines are amazing little units. You can split them up and kite everything. Even collosi, if you split your forces up those rays wont melt their faces off!
I think that the stalker needs to have a faster attack, or enable the legs to be upgraded from a forge maybe?
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I read through the post and couldn't help but roll my eyes at a balance whine in the guise of a harmless question. Makes it hard for me to take your question seriously. Do you actually want to change races or did you just want to whine about racial balance?
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On December 10 2010 03:00 GoldenH wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2010 01:43 craz3d wrote:On December 10 2010 00:53 GoldenH wrote:On December 10 2010 00:10 Kyuki wrote:On December 09 2010 23:58 GoldenH wrote:
I agree 100% with the op, there is no reward to getting better with protoss, nothing you can do withcrazy apm, no worthwhile harassment options, if you get to a certain point there is nothing to do but switch races... very sad. DONT LISTEN TO THIS PERSON *ARGH/)(!"/#)(/!"#(&!"#%* It just can't be more wrong, if you don't belive that bigger maps (which will happen) and more macro oriented play wont effect a good high APM Protoss, then you're clueless. Unit positioning is pretty much the most important for protoss out of all races, or atleast hardest, and is something that you will pretty much always loose games due to having bad of (strange sentence I know). The potential in the warp prism and warpgates in general is sick... There will always be room for improvement for players with all races imo. Lol, why can't. He listen to me? Look, obviously protoss reareds some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you'veastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then Unlike some posters here I'm not saying that protoss cant win, I'm sure the race can be competative, but simply that there is less to master. All the things that protoss can use help the other races as well. Do you think terrans cant profit from macro or zergs cant profit from saving low health units? Think again. But both races have far more to master that can make them great. Look at zerg in the original starcraft. For a lon time everyone thought they were up because protoss and terran were so easy to get good at. But everyone recognized the potential for zerg spellcasters. There just was no player good enough to use that. Then eventually there was players that were good enough and zerg became the premier race. Eventually terran and protoss caught up. But the difference between zer in sc1 and protoss in sc2 is that there is no unit or ability that protoss has that players are not good enough to use. People talk about warp prisms but do you honestly think they haven't been tried? I even run into warp prism play from plat players for goodness sake. No. There is no protoss ability that players aren't good enough to use. There are only protoss tactics that son't have the potential to make a difference when used at the highest level of skill. And that is why you should switch from protoss. Yes eventually protoss may be figured out or a patch will be released that lets players benefit from their skill. But you will not hone those skills by playing protoss in its present state. You should switch races, and become a better gamer, . Then when protoss is fixed decide if you want to switch back. How do P players not benefit from skill? Protoss is the same as BW, you can't just 1a2a3a into a minefield or into a lurker contain, but you gotta have good micro to diffuse the various situations. The only reasons P players get shafted a lot is because their play always revolves around Robo units since you needs obs to counter banshees, and collo to counter mass hydra play, and immortals to help against roaches since for some reason they rape stalkers who dont have sentry support. The upcoming patch will allow for faster massing of pheonixes which could give protoss some earlier harassment options. I also think it'll freshen up PvP since they could be used to snipe collossi if they are in a big enough mass, which the lower build time will make much easier. to repeat, "Look, obviously protoss requires some skill or every protoss played would be indistinguishable from huk, but once you've mastered war prisms and unit positioning and getting the unit mix you need when you need it, what then" You really can't do a lot of micro with Protoss other races can. Yes of course you can micro your units to keep them alive, but you can't micro your units TO WIN... either your units are able to win in a fight or they aren't, no amount of clicking will make zealots run faster, or stalkers do more DPS, or colossus dodge viking shots. Meanwhile microing terran bio and zerg roach/ling/muta etc has more destructive potential, Protoss is only able to be prepared, it can take a lot of skill to always be prepared, but if the other player is equally prepared, you cannot then have a micro war. It makes Protoss very 1 dimensional and means that there is not a lot of improvement to be had.
This is just so wrong... You must be playing some other race. Microing terran bio is the easiest out of any type of micro. Sure it's awesome to split units and it looks cool, but why is it even possible to begin with? Because your UNITS ARE FAST when stimmed. Considering that most of the protoss army is rather slow, you need to have especially good micro both OUTSIDE of battles (positioning) and INSIDE battles.
Immortals wasting shots off on Marines is a nono but will happen, these needs to be controlled to target marauders / tanks, splitting zealots on charge. Focus fireing with Collosus, and sniping shit with stalkers and spread them fast enough while force fielding and eventually storm+feedback. I don't see how laying a field of EMP and stimming + spread and grab 5 marauders to FF a Collosus while your viking army is shiftclicked on the biggest unit in the game is more micro instense, or even has more potential in making a bigger difference to the fight.
I'm not saying the other races are easier to micro or don't have potential, the surely do and loads of it, but saying that protoss doesnt, is delusional.
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I was a 2k terran and switched to protoss about a month ago, dropped about 200 points to 1800 but now im up to almost 2.2k.
if you feel like swtiching go for it, in a month or two ull probably be comparable to your previous level, in the grand scheme of things playing a race for 4-5 months is nothing
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It seems to me that since your a war 3 player at heart your looking at SC2 the wrong way. While the stutter step and micro ability of units was very important in WC3 it isnt as important in SC2. Besides the zealots arent really supposed to deal lots of damage till you get charge or good forcefields. they are supposed to tank/distract the bio so your stalkers/immortals/whatever can get hits off. Plus they are a pretty good mineral dump.
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I must say I find your point of view interesting! I play protoss 2 and I really like them but I'm just (2200 diamond) so thats in no way close to your rating. I geuss that I just really like the warp mechanism. Furthermore I must agree with your view on the aspects of protoss, geuss we have to wait till some things might get more viable the upcomming changes are a step in the right direction. I also think not everything has been taken in aspect yet, like the possibilities of harash and use of hallicunations etc etc there should be more there. I do disagree on the no micro part, I feel a good protoss army needs alot of micro and it might be one of the more intesive micro races also because of the high hp and high costs you just need to keep units alive otherwise it might cost you the game
Back on your switching part, If I were you I would try to random otherwise maybe that could be an advantage and could help you pick a race, otherwise if you don't want to drop much and your not convident about your other race play you should stick to protoss, cause its still a cool race :D
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Don't take yourself too seriously, mate. You'll end up on the wrong side of history.
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Go for it, knowing all of the races is beneficial as a player. I recently switched my main race from zerg to protoss and while it was difficult to learn PvT (I've played <100 games as T), I'm already climbing higher than I was with zerg. I've actually improved dramatically in the last 6 weeks. Protoss suits my style more than zerg & I didn't realize it until I gave protoss a good shot.
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I love the creepy crawly zerg, so I say, FOR THE SWARM!
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After Reading through all 6 pages so far. I contemplated switching myself stim stutter micro does look cool but thats TvZ and TvP. From the majority of your post is sounds like you are looking at specifically PvT as the major factor in you switching, it sounds like your leaning toward terran from your OP. If you switch you will need to keep in mind that you will probably play a Ton of TvT and if your raxing there won't be alot of the stim stutter micro you seem to admire. Both of you will be stutter microing and no one will be shooting each other.
It sounds like your impressed with the MMM ball its powerful yes its easy yes. Think beyond that into the late think about all the situations that you feel comfortable in as a protoss player and ask will you feel just as comfortable as a terran player. You know the power of storm and colossus. How will you feel on the other side of that scenario when your facing those abilities?
If you want to switch go ahead nothing stopping you and its not to late. Before you do though think of all the matchups and not just PvT/TvP you like stutter micro when will you be using it? Surely not in TvT. Think about dealing with muta's and banelings. You need to consider the things that protoss is strong at and how much you will miss those things if you switch to terran and vice verse.
You like the marine take a look at this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=174912 the core of what he is saying is the dependency of the marine in the terran army unlike any other core unit. As the game progresses they just aren't as "Great"
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A. Learning to play TvZ isn't hard: see GSL Ro8.
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go random and be a hero, imo!
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A. Learning to play TvZ isn't hard: see GSL Ro8.
> + Show Spoiler +Just make 2rax , marines, and pull your scv, congratulations , you have defeat nestea.
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The game is still new, there's going to be hundreds of patches. I know it's hard but giving up won't help P advance. Imagine what would have happened if Boxer switched from T to P in SC1.
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piskooooo United States. December 10 2010 06:21. Posts 137 PM Profile Quote #
The game is still new, there's going to be hundreds of patches. I know it's hard but giving up won't help P advance. Imagine what would have happened if Boxer switched from T to P in SC1.
>Boxer switched from P to T
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lol perfect, ur never gonna change (noone cares about that huge wall btw)
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Alright check it, this fool comes into vent every god damn day and whines about everything. This isn't a problem with the protoss race this is his attitude in general. Perfect your credibility goes down the more you bring it up you may get some sympathetic brotoss patting you on the back the rest of us TL;DR the shit out of your OP.
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Some of the best players in the future probably havent even touched starcraft so i think your fine
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Stick with Brotoss, no questions asked. The game is young and there is going to be many many changes. Best part about playing protoss, you don't have to play ZvT!
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I find the greatest thing about Sc2 is that there are 3 distinct races, each with their advantages and disadvantages, yet you cannot easily say that one race is more powerful than the next.
That's the greatness of starcraft it really doesnt matter what race you choose, it's completely preferential
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On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
[...]
A: Switch to Terran where higher skill level is greatly rewarded and the harassment capabilities keep terran fun and interesting. But the downside is learning TvZ and playing TvT for the above reasons stated before.[...]
That shouldn't bee to much of problem... at the moment it's all about marines and some medivacs/tanks anyways... that should be pretty much what you want a kind of micro-intensive matchup. For example:
2 rax marine early pressure, splitting marines vs banelings etc.
The only things you really had to learn there are the timings e.g. "when does he usually take his 3rd base so I can deny it" and the likes.
I switched races a lot since beta and I'm glad I did. I could get some insight on all of the races and their differences as I didn't play too much sc:bw.
I'm also a former WC3 player and my first "serious" race was protoss, too for the same reasons you mentioned above.
I switched to Zerg now a while ago and that's great as I felt that this race suits my playstyle the best. Of course it's different from the WC3 races but it's a different game after all and I think you should play what you WANT to play not what you feel you are the most successful with. At least that's very important for me as I would lose my motivation to play pretty soon if I didn't like the race I'm playing.
btw: You listed only mutas and nydus networks as harassment methods but you shouldn't underestimate 20 lings running to your oppontents 3rd/4th base which is virtually defenseless on bigger maps (unless hes T and has a PF there ~_~).
You can also do some neat micro tricks with roach timing pushes with burrow (remember WC3 fiend micro? :D) vs Zerg and Protoss.
That's a pretty weird post as I just wrote whatever came to my mind but the message is: play whatever race you want to play! You shouldn't be afraid to drop a few hundred points on the ladder (it will reset eventually anyways). I finally found the race that I was looking for all the time and it feels great. I never had so much motviation to play the game.
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I haven't read your post, imo too much information and if TL wants you to write that much, then its just boring. But anyways that isnt the point, the point is if you want to switch races, no matter what point in time do it and dont regret it because if you want to change races then you clealy don't like the one you are playing now. Although if you are changing races because of "balance" issues then dont because you are living the lie and you should always stick with your race! also there is no such thing as a "imba race that can beat all races" it is a matter of skill and timings that a clever player has figured out. SIMPLES! ^^
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i dont agree with your statements about protoss at all but its never too late to switch. if its no fun for you to play protoss then dont hesitate to switch, you may loose your next 50 games but no one on this world cares about your stats so it shouldnt matter.
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Protoss can be micro intensive but it's more in the mid and late game. Zealots and Stalkers aren't super micro units, but they are with charge and blink. Then you need good micro to manuever expensive late game units, put them into proper positioning just before a fight and during a fight. The micro isn't just action-micro it's also positioning the army during a fight, which protoss benefits a lot from. Play what you are most comfortable with personally.
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On December 10 2010 06:48 SlyinZ wrote:Show nested quote + piskooooo United States. December 10 2010 06:21. Posts 137 PM Profile Quote #
The game is still new, there's going to be hundreds of patches. I know it's hard but giving up won't help P advance. Imagine what would have happened if Boxer switched from T to P in SC1. >Boxer switched from P to T
shhh lol
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Oh how much do i agree with your logic. A+. Ultimately unless u trying to be the best i'd recommend playing whats fun for you which is looking like T. However, your in a dangerous gap where your playing to get better and not what you enjoy (i feel). Maybe there is a bigger picture here
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Infestors need fungal growth to be able to affect air units, they're hardly used at all as it as, and since they're basically zerg's only spell caster, nerfing them so much as to basically remove their use from the game would be horrible for balance. Top players (in gsl at least) have yet to use infestors consistently or at all really, and zerg needs it to remain a viable unit. I do agree though that protoss needs to have harder micro.
On another topic, I previously was a top 200 terran, was at 75th or so in rankings, and I decided to switch to zerg because of my dislike of TvT. Its taken me quite awhile to get back up, but I think I'll be there again soon, I'm on the border right now.
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This is the best thread in months. Interesting OP for me (I play T and P, think T has most potential), lots of opinions I share coming from a serious War3 player (I never played War3 but I get more fun out of SC/SC2 micro more than macro), lightly veiled insults from several posters (cracks me up... civil comments, but I smell War3 hate somewhere in there), lot's of good info throughout thread (I have read halfway thru), and balance talk. Balance talk is my favorite thing that everybody hates.
So yeah, melee isn't rewarded nearly as much with micro vs tons of ranged units. Warcraft 2 had it different, but we'll save that topic for another day.
My short answer. Play both T and P. T definitely is more fun for harass, stutter step micro, focus fire, etc. Protoss has occasional moments with blink and forcefields. Maybe phoenix sometimes... they are growing on me a little bit.
But I say play both. It keeps you "fair minded" and isn't as shallow as playing random where you just can't have enough time to get deep. Kudos for random players that try... it's not easy.
Out of time. But keep this topic alive... interesting and entertaining.
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What worry me the most over the fact that if you play perfectly, is the randommines of the races, i goes to zerg after seeing some strong macro zergs who are quite regular, but now i dont know...it seems like its the most random race, you do well, if there is a cheese or some stuff like that, you're f**ked more than if you played another race ( that's what i feel).
That's why i profit of this topic to ask you tl : what's the most regular and less randommy race beetween terran and zerg?
(sorry for my poor english)
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Stalker's attack animation as well as its attack speed is far too long to benefit from stutter step type micro,
stopped reading after this, your doing it wrong
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Lol, I dropped from like 2.8k points to 2.2k when I started playing round with other races.
If you don't mind getting raped by all your practice partners for a week or so its no big problem. Skill transfers over pretty easily I'd say.
Don't play zerg though. That race is such a crap shoot early game right now lol, and you'll probably have the harder time since Terran is more similar to Protoss than zerg.
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Play random for a month, then choose it from your experience, you don't have to cheese either, you could also play some zerg, then terran. Just so you feel it for yourself. We can't choose it for you, that pretty much would imply that there is a right answer, but there isn't. I play random right now, and I'd choose Protoss if I had to, but I don't, nor I want to become a pro, so I'll keep random.
Why are you asking if is it too late? Do you have a tournament soon or something? Why do you play? If you play for personal pleasure, it is never too late, the question doesn't make any sense (to me).
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First expansion hasn't even come out yet, definitely not too late to switch. Although, protoss needs more top player game is turning into TvZ
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obviously not too late to switch but the necessity is hardly there either, the game is young and still has patches and expansions still to come.
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the game has been out for less than a year - SC1/BW lasted 10 years. This game is an infant. Play whichever race is THE MOST FUN FOR YOU. It's not like you're going pro anytime soon or want a career out of playing sc2. You're playing to compete for FUN - so have fun.
edit: i love all these newbs talking about not being able to do ANYTHING as protoss, meanwhile oGsMC is on the cusp of winning GSL, and Hongun got 3rd/4th. I guess all these internet nerds are better than Hongun/MC. Also as I've said before, play the game to have FUN, 99.9% of you aren't going pro so there is NO reason to play ANY race for ANY reason but to have fun. If you aren't having fun with toss - switch or quit the game.
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I would say play whichever one you think is the coolest, if you're not playing for fun, I don't think you should be playing at all.
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If you're looking for micro, play with stalkers more? I mean seriously, they're amazing in the early game if you have near-perfect control.
The thing with switching races is that you'll switch, then you'll realize "oh my god, this race wasn't as easy or as fun as I thought it would be", then you switch back. Most of the time. Unless you really dislike the race you play.
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The point that the OP made about zealots is really key. Blizzard's balance stats showed that protoss has at least a 55% win ratio against terrans in plat and below. Hardly anybody at that level knows how to micro against zealots.
And he's also correct that protoss has the lowest skill cap. I don't know how anybody can argue against it.
1. Can't play reactionary (which is the theoretically superior style) because of restrictive tech tree.
2. Least harass options.
3. Can't take advantage of superior mechanics because you can't multitask as much as protoss or zerg given that you have to look at your base the most.
4. Gotta keep your army in a big ball and can't do multi-prong attacks as much as terran and zerg.
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If your just doing it because you feel week as toss, it might not be worth it to change if you actually enjoy playing them. It will be constantly flip-flopping with the patches, and you don't want to bounce around from race to race.
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On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:. I enjoy microing more than macroing but my macro is quite good anyway thanks to Wc3.
Yeah....What??????
wc3 is a game of micro, not macro. And i'm saying this as a current A grade ICCup wc3 player.
Also, you are in the top 200, but in platinum??????
I is confused
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On December 10 2010 13:01 Arkless wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:. I enjoy microing more than macroing but my macro is quite good anyway thanks to Wc3. Yeah....What??????wc3 is a game of micro, not macro. And i'm saying this as a current A grade ICCup wc3 player. Also, you are in the top 200, but in platinum?????? I is confused
No one cares about wc3-iccup sorry to burst your bubble.. it has been pretty dead right from the start. A grade in wc3 iccup is probably equivalent of top 10 on west or some other meaningless achievement. Wc3 macro is quite similar to sc2 just in sc2 there is alot more of it.
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actually, noone cares about your ish. I'm just stating, that wc3 isnt about macro, period. It's all micro.
Also, everyone who is anyone in wc3, plays on ICCup
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Brotoss since SC1 and loving it. If anything, I think toss has amazing underrated advantages.
1) Warping units, beast
2) Warp prism
3) Mass recall
4) The upgrades (zealot charge, blink, thermal lance).
5) Chrono boost
6) 1 worker can build any amount of buildings
That combined just screams toss for me.
Once you get toss in the mid and late game it's pretty hard to deal with. Chargelots/sentries/colosi are deadly combo especially when your colosi reach critical mass it's just super hard to deal with.
Also a beast opening that I've been using lately is the 3gate - 8 stalkers, 5 zealots at around 6:25.
On December 10 2010 12:50 AndAgain wrote:
The point that the OP made about zealots is really key. Blizzard's balance stats showed that protoss has at least a 55% win ratio against terrans in plat and below. Hardly anybody at that level knows how to micro against zealots.
And he's also correct that protoss has the lowest skill cap. I don't know how anybody can argue against it.
1. Can't play reactionary (which is the theoretically superior style) because of restrictive tech tree.
2. Least harass options.
3. Can't take advantage of superior mechanics because you can't multitask as much as protoss or zerg given that you have to look at your base the most.
4. Gotta keep your army in a big ball and can't do multi-prong attacks as much as terran and zerg.
I agree. I've ever only had about 5 opponents that properly micro'd.
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In my opinion, Protoss takes the least mechanical skill. Protoss doesn't need stutter step, flanking, splitting, storm dodging, dropping, etc as much as the Terran and Zerg do. However, Protoss takes a lot of critical thinking and foresight. Where you chose to engage as a Protoss is more important than unit control. Storms, Colossus, and Force Fields all benefit from proper terrain and from anticipating the movements of hydras/marines/vikings. Chronoboost and Warp Tech means you can modify your unit composition on the fly while putting on incredible pressure because your opponent doesn't have the defender's advantage of shorter resupply distance anymore. Couple that with Observers so you always know where and what the opponent's army looks like, and you can always be ready to engage your enemy in a good location and with the proper counters.
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It sounds like you feel as if the race you are playing does not reward your strengths. That is a great reason to switch races, certainly a better reason than not wanting to deal with TvT. I played Zerg from beta up until 2 months ago and was getting really frustrated. I was a Protoss player in BW but I found the new mechanics of Zerg interesting and fun so I gave it a shot.
I am not such a great multi-tasker mind you. This is problematic for competitive RTS no matter what game/race you play but it is simply an unaffordable weakness if you want to play Zerg to their potential. On the other hand, my micro is pretty solid and I was always good at managing mixed unit groups with lots of activated abilities in War3. I gave Protoss a try and haven't looked back.
I'm still perpetually stuck in bronze, but I am having a more rewarding experience because the race I am playing doesn't expose my weaknesses so badly and allows me to utilize my strengths more.
While Protoss might have that obvious allure to War3 vets, that fun/allure factor can be mis-leading in RTS. Just because it feels or seems familiar doesn't mean it's the best for you. It sounds like you need to just decide what strengths of yours you want to be rewarded for and pick a race accodingly. A player of your skill should be able to work out the rest after that.
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Try Blink stalkers. They have a high skillcap IMO.
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I'll be honest with you. It is never too late to switch races. You need to have fun with what you are playing - if not, whats the point?
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Are you playing as a job like progamer ? If not, then play whatever you like. There's no pressure
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On December 10 2010 13:44 RexFTW wrote:
Try Blink stalkers. They have a high skillcap IMO.
Yeah, blink stalkers are what sold me that my wc3 micro would make Protoss ridiculously strong. This was definately true early on where 4 gate and 2 gate colossi all ins were very good and people didn't know how to defend against them. However here is an analysis of the stalker which makes me kinda sad.
Stalker vs Roach:
In lower numbers (1-8 or so) stalker can be very effective against roaches. The reason for this is is having 2 range advantage and a slight movement speed advantage off-creep. 1a vs 1a the roach are going to lay down the hurt because stat wise and cost wise 2 roach > 1 stalker.
However, once Roach speed becomes available the tables turn pretty hard, The movement speed of the roach is now even faster than the stalker off-creep, this effectively makes kiting much much less effective. Another thing to look at is how Roaches deal their damage, they have an attack speed of 2, but in return have a base damage of 16. The stalker on the other hand has a modified base damage of 14 against the roach, and an attack speed of 1.44.
This has several consequences, On paper you think to yourself hmm, i have .66 seconds to attack and get out of range to avoid the volley of the front row roaches. If stalkers behaved like marines this wouldn't be a problem. However the difference between the marine and the stalker is that the marines attack is instant, and the attack animation is very short. The problem here for me lies with the delayed attack animation of the stalker. While Marines only have to stop moving for a fraction of a second, the stalker must visibly stop for a longer duration in order for its attack animation to execute and then it can move once again. During this time a concussive shell from a Marauder could land, a Roach volley could go off. etc.
Back on topic with the Roach, Zerg players have a very strong technique to deny blink stalker micro. Conventional wisdom says blink back shield depleted stalkers and let more stalker shields tank the damage. A micro technique Speed Roach users can do to deny this is to simply not attack with 1a. With 1a only the front roaches in an arc attack the stalker and you can simply blink back. The correct way in most situations is to run your roaches straight up to the front of the Stalker and then have several rows of Roach attack, the front 2 stalker lines or more will instantly die with no time to blink back shield depleted stalker because they are already dead. This isn't even taking into account that Stalker's 14 dmg is a modified attack, Zerg users can augment Roaches with speedlings (which again do very well per cost against blink stalker) while the Roaches damage is unmodified, its going to do 16 damage vs your sentry, 16 damage vs your zealot and 16 damage vs your stalker.
Basically what I'm trying to say is even with perfect blink stalker micro, cost for cost the stalker is still going to lose to Speed Roach. Which i feel isn't very fair from a racial standpoint because the Protoss player is using very high level micro on each one of his units individually while the player controlling the Roach is simply running up and then 1a. I'm not saying Roach > Stalker so Roach is imbalanced, I'm saying that my extra skill that i put into the fight is not being rewarded, which as a player can be quite frustrating.
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I was just watching HUK's stream. Insane stalker micro. No joke.
He sent 5 stalkers vs 4 marauders *with conc shell* and a marine and lost 0 stalker. Thats gosu. Yes the Terran was focus firing. Yes 2 stalkers were at 5 hp or so. (no blink)
He has won about 5 games in a row in <10 mins on just stalker micro.
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I'm sure your experience supports your arguments, but your arguments, unlike your dashing, intelligent self, are laughable.
First, HongUn has proved how dangerous Stalkers are in SC2; he's famous for spamming out just that unit and microing his way to victory - with or without blink.
Second, you have shown no understanding of macro. Your summation of macro is "everyone has it." You severely overvalue harassment because of this. There are countless GSL games where devastating harassment means NOTHING because the enemy can make units faster than you can kill them. You do not need killer micro and harassment if you have solid defense and way more shit. I'm sure every micro player feels the same way you do, but everyone else knows players who rely on their micro to win have a poor grasp of unit composition and economy and will inevitably meet their doom where a comparatively easy to perform counter to their dance-move-centric offense is found. Such is the nature of the metagame.
Third, your entire point is based on the false idea that melee units are designed solely to deal damage. They are there to tank. Stalkers plus zealots beats a superhuman kiting genius with just stalkers because while the his stalkers are picking off zealots without taking a hit, my stalkers are shooting his with complete protection. HongUn, to bring this full circle, lost to a small number of hydras with roach/ling support in just this fashion.
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If you are still online, tune into huk's channel. He just killed 3 zealots with 1 zealot + 4 probes and lost 1 probe. Mind = blown.
I dont feel like stalkers are that amazing vs zerg. (Im a zerg player) You need to hit a timing with them and that is before speed. Once they have speed you need higher tech units to deal with roaches.
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in Wc3 the grunt has 700 hp and the archer has 135 hp, the grunts damage is 18-21 with a 50% bonus vs medium armor (archer) the archer does 8-9 damage with slightly faster attack rate but no bonus.
what fucking game where you playing
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After reading all of the OP, I have to say i can feel your pain. Im in a similar position, just that i started as Zerg, which is also my Broodwar race. Your problem is quite common in my opinion, its normal to feel at some point that the own race has disadvantages, or it is getting boring in so many ways. What I did was playing the other races quite a bunch, and then I started feeling the old love again, because i saw how hard it can actually be to play against my own race. You also get to see the weaknesses of your opponents races, which is really different from watching it in a replay, you get the feelings for the timings. MAybe you wanna try that too..
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Don't do it... Stay Protoss and just hope that future patches will make room for your abilities.
Look what switching races did to Morrow. I mean yeah, he's a pretty good Zerg and playing at pro level once again. But let's be honest here, there's a real possibility he could have a GSL under his belt by now had he stuck with Terran.
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It is never too late to switch races, Weather your bored or feel like trying somting out.
Best suggestion is probly to keep playing your main race but holding the other as a offrace. Just like random players have to do with 3 races.
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its never too late to switch races, play the race u enjoy the most!
cause if u enjoy playing a certain races u will play more, skill will follow.
(u might lose alot of games at first q
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Nice subtle balance rant here, but your arguments would only matter if you could only make zealots vs marines. Maybe you should use sentry and force fields more, which basicly is the most rewarding micro unit in the entire game. Being able to create positional advantages and deny any kiting is gigantic.
You could have the best stutter step micro in the world, but the moment there are 3 force fields behind you, it makes absolutely zero difference.
On "topic" thought, there's absolutely nothing that should stop you from changing race, considering the game will probably be out for several years, and if you're already bored with your race there is no point to keep playing it. If it is for balance reasons, which I think it is, then you're just being stupid. You'll probably end up switching race again the moment you die to burrowed banelings, or instant die to storm+colossus or something.
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Hey if you wanna do it go for it.
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Its never to late to switch, but just remember patches will always sway the balance of the game. Who knows what units the new expansions will bring.
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Amazing OP, even if I don't have an answer to his dilemma. Good food for thoughts though.
Although I'm far from the player he is, I've had more or less the same thoughts myself. Anyway, I hope Blizzard dare test the limits more on the testing server, even if the majority of them will never go through.
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Stay the race you want to play, you think is cool and you enjoy. Even in the top 200 unless you still should be enjoying the game. If you like the gameplay mechanics of protoss then stick to it. Now if it's lag or something, remember as much as protoss relies on a well timed forcefield, terran still relies on well timed stim, siege, zerg with FG etc.
The Metagame itself is changing rapidly. With a much larger audience to cater to, the waves coming out of Korea are huge. I've been out of the game for a few weeks now (replaced hdd just haven't reinstalled) and I'm sure everyone and their mom is doing 2rax 3-5 rine +scv rush, next month they won't hell maybe next week they won't. For a while after MLG Dallas everyone went blink stalkers.
Some tactic may not be imbalanced this week, it may just be very strong hard to counter, but who knows what the next 2 weeks hold for it.
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On December 10 2010 18:55 Mooncat wrote:
Don't do it... Stay Protoss and just hope that future patches will make room for your abilities.
Look what switching races did to Morrow. I mean yeah, he's a pretty good Zerg and playing at pro level once again. But let's be honest here, there's a real possibility he could have a GSL under his belt by now had he stuck with Terran.
Wait what?
This game is 6 months old. If you want to switch races just do it. You probably will switch back if you like your old race better.
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I don't think it's ever too late to switch races as long as you switch something that's better for your style the end result will always end up better, assuming you stay in the scene for a longer time.
What race did you play in Warcraft 3?
Cuz for me how warcraft races translate into starcraft is:
Orc - Protoss/Terran, Undead - Protoss/Zerg, Nelf - Zerg/Terran, Human - Terran.
With exceptions ofcourse.
But i mean figure out your own style, what race relates to you the most, because the races are so completely different and you can only go as far as your race allows you.
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Didn't read the entire thing and it's most likely already been said but... Pick ur FAVORITE race, it's a win/win. U'll have more fun and, in time, get better anyway since u'll be more motivated and play more.
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Play the race that you like most, or you'll probably won't enjoy it.
If you don't have a favourite race, I would probably stick to protoss since you've invested so much time in it.
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Interesting points about Warcraft 3 skills transferring to Starcraft 2. If there aren't as many options for harass and micro as Zerg, then why did a top Warcraft 3 player like Moon pick zerg? Would be interesting to hear his viewpoint on playstyles of each race.
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On December 10 2010 00:14 Proto_Protoss wrote:
Unless you plan on going pro keep playing the race you LIKE/LOVE to play.
I second that.
What are you wanting out of the game? If you want to be #1 on the ladder or want to go pro pick the race that you will win the most with.
If not and you want to enjoy the game, pick the race you would enjoy the most. Will you be better if you switch to terran or would you just enjoy the micro? Because the match-ups aren't unbalanced overall.
I'm ok as protoss, I've had a lot of practice with it,and I find zerg really hard. Like, really hard. But I enjoy it more so I'm sticking with it.
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On December 09 2010 18:55 NearPerfection wrote:
Using this when you compare a zealot to a marine something fishy happens in terms of a wc3 players perspective on balance. while the grunt was 3 food and the archer was 2 food archers had a 3:2 ratio advantage in numbers. when in sc2 marines have a 2:1 ratio over zealots. even more strange is that the cost of 2 marines is = to the cost of 1 zealot.
Basically what i'm trying to say is that if sub high level diamond players could download a program that would automatically stutter step and kite for them the win % of protoss would go down drastically.
I don't understand this comparison. Isn't this why toss has FF? By trapping marines/marauders with FF to disallow them to retreat, the zealot has a much bigger value. It's a lot more effective than ensnare in War3..
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For me my only beef with being Protoss is the early game. This is at Gold level, however.
Rushes/early pushes are just so EASY and COMMON that it's difficult for Protoss even get to the mid-game. These players focus so much on their early play that once I get to the mid-game it's just a slow progression towards my opponent's gg. Before then it's nothing but a struggle. I rarely if ever win a game under 14 minutes, but maybe it's because I don't often counterattack those times that I stop the cheesy push (3RR, 7RR, 3Rax, 5Rax). I prefer to play a macro game and limit my enemy to 2-3 bases (map-permitting he might get a 3rd). I don't even see how this could be patched (increasing Stalker dps comes to mind), since Protoss is just not designed around the early game.
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Damn, didn't know David Kim was THAT high.
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I was really hopping that Blizzard hade reset the laddar by now, im playing zerg and is 2700 in Diamond and want to play toss but its so f borring just getting slaughtered a million matches in a row.
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wait... wouldn't it be better if blizzard delayed the reset, so that your record while starting out with toss gets wiped?
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On January 20 2011 05:36 MOOG wrote:
wait... wouldn't it be better if blizzard delayed the reset, so that your record while starting out with toss gets wiped?
No.
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I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that Protoss will always be the underpowered race. Right now they are, by far, the strongest race. That is why I just played (literally) 16 protoss in a row in the diamond ladder.
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it's never too late to change races
no matter what you switch from and to
if you feel unconfortable playing your race and would like to give other races a go, feel free to try out the new race
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what a long post, ill be honest i didnt read a word besides the OP.
and my answer is no, its not even close to beginning to be too late to switch races.
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It can't be too late durr 
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On January 20 2011 05:22 Pazuzzu wrote:
I was really hopping that Blizzard hade reset the laddar by now, im playing zerg and is 2700 in Diamond and want to play toss but its so f borring just getting slaughtered a million matches in a row.
You know that your MMR is kept right? So you'll still be playing at the level you are now, even if it isn't called 2700 Diamond
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I think the problem you have is that you think protoss is underpowered. Half of every sentence you made was a move to establish how you have great micro and macro and the other half was spent explaining how the world is being unfair towards your race.
Therefore I would advocate that you change race just so you can gain some humility.
If I understood correctly you are telling us that blizzard nerfs protoss thanks to a whiney stupid community.
But then you casually brush on that fungal growth should not hit air.
You never saw it from any other point than that you could own with flying units against zerg. While that would be true, but also zerg would only be about 8% of all players so you would never get to abuse that awesome nerf.
Compare it to making high templar only hit air. It would be as big of a nerf to zerg to not hit air with fg. I was sure nobody took that nerf seriously, but apparently..
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I think anyone who needs to whine regularly about their race should switch it up for reasons osten said, and also to gain some perspective.
also I don't think it's ever too late. the same mechanics apply to every race in the game even if the application of those mechanics change.
if you play enough, you'll learn what you need to learn. if you're dedicated to your new road you will be successful.
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EPT
