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On December 05 2010 00:17 ltortoise wrote:
So now you're insulting Terran players as a whole, and making ridiculous claims about how much micro they need to do to win (clicking twice).
The number of totally unskilled terrans having climbed their way up with overpowered bioballs proves my point.
Even in so-called "pro" matches you often see terrans go marine marauder for 30 minutes on and still ram straight through protoss players with storms/colossus or zergs with tier 3 units...
Doesn't take any skill or micro to spam tier 1 units and 1a; Any idiot can do it and the current ladder is proof enough of that.
User was temp banned for this post.
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quite disappointed that terran still stays "win before 12 minute mark or leave the game race" considering how blizzard nerfs all the timing rushes and tries to push everything into late-game.
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APM is gonna matter a little more now with the producing units change
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Oh no! Now zerg might have to have an actual mixture of units instead of just spamming mutas....what a shame that they will have to think a little past "MUTAAAAS DURRRR, NOW ULTRAAAA"
User was temp banned for this post.
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Oh no! Now zerg might have to have an actual mixture of units instead of just spamming mutas....what a shame that they will have to think a little past "MUTAAAAS DURRRR, NOW ULTRAAAA"
If you REALLY think mass mutas will win you games in mid-high diamond, you should leave these forums, delete your account and never come back.
EDIT: You know what, it won't even win you games in platinum anymore.
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As a T player, I honestly dont feel this is going to matter at all in any of my MUs. I dont understand why any terrans would engage in this discussion. It might make some difference in ZvP, but nothing big. The real matter is ZvZ, and any non Z player should just stay the hell away from that dicussion.
EDIT: but I do feel that these changes are not necessary. Its just like changing stuff, not balancing anything.
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Stim drops... stim drops everywhere.
I actually play protoss for the most part and while I'm excited to see the phoenix build time reduced, I think the fungal change is a bit much. It would seem to give the highest threat mobility directly to terrans with multi-pronged medivac harrass.
I like the phoenix changes because it gives protoss more realistic mobile map control options.
I can't help but think that the patches that Blizzard implement are directed to make games last longer and longer (maybe for the spectator sport pro scene?). TvZ seems to be turning more and more into a battle of attrition where the Terran player's challenge is to keep the zerg player from taking over the map through expansions and creep spread. I can't really place protoss' challenge, but it seems more often than not that it's just to find a specific effective timing attack dependent on the map and opponent's build order and implement it effectively for a crippling blow.
Just kind of rambling here.
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On December 05 2010 00:28 Armsved wrote:
As a T player, I honestly dont feel this is going to matter at all in any of my MUs. I dont understand why any terrans would engage in this discussion. It might make some difference in ZvP, but nothing big. The real matter is ZvZ, and any non Z player should just stay the hell away from that dicussion.
You don't think Ravens will now become an effective unit to mass in the lategame against Zerg?
Every time I tried it before I'd suffer huge losses to fungal. Now it looks doable.
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On December 05 2010 00:19 Piy wrote:
The issue isn't the damage dealt, its that P and T can flick around the map with their air and even if you do have the creep spread to deal with it, not having fungal growth means that there is nothing worrying them. So you have to play very defensive with your hydras as a result. Or go Muta, not that Muta works vs Phoenix without fungal growth.
Hopefully they won't put through the silly change, the rest of the patch is good.
Describes how every T and P feels when Zerg go mutas and they get more than 6.
On to the FG nerf. Before this nerf that hasn't even happened, all zerg say is "Just don't clump up your phoenixes, learn to separate them so that FG isn't as effective.
Well now you guys can learn not to clump up your mutas, and divide them into groups so you can flank/sandwich our phoenixes.
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In BroodWar the Observatory was required (added additional time till you can get observers) And now they for some reason lowered the costs of observers eventhough you can get them extremely quickly? A terran scan is limited by the time the scan runs, only spots a certain area and costs potential 240 minerals you get from mules.
Maybe someone can enlighten me why this was necessary?
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On December 05 2010 00:29 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:28 Armsved wrote:
As a T player, I honestly dont feel this is going to matter at all in any of my MUs. I dont understand why any terrans would engage in this discussion. It might make some difference in ZvP, but nothing big. The real matter is ZvZ, and any non Z player should just stay the hell away from that dicussion. You don't think Ravens will now become an effective unit to mass in the lategame against Zerg? Every time I tried it before I'd suffer huge losses to fungal. Now it looks doable.
I dont know how you will get to lategame with the production to mass that. Its like massing BCs before they got nerfed. Its expensive, you wont get to the lategame with the production to support it and there will be big gaps of timing for the zerg to exploit it.
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On December 05 2010 00:22 Shinkugami wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:17 ltortoise wrote:
So now you're insulting Terran players as a whole, and making ridiculous claims about how much micro they need to do to win (clicking twice).
The number of totally unskilled terrans having climbed their way up with overpowered bioballs proves my point. Even in so-called "pro" matches you often see terrans go marine marauder for 30 minutes on and still ram straight through protoss players with storms/colossus or zergs with tier 3 units... Doesn't take any skill or micro to spam tier 1 units and 1a; Any idiot can do it and the current ladder is proof enough of that.
Your post is sooooo typical for these days.
Ok, so, take this: Zergs are noobs. Reason: The number of totally unskilled terrans zergs having climbed their way up with overpowered bioballs mutaling proves my point. See, i have a proof, so i am right. Oh, and there are even some so-called pro matches, where the zerg stays on tier1 units until he has atleast 3 bases and basically won.
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On December 05 2010 00:21 Bosu wrote:
Can 2 bunkers still wall a ramp in?
I'm wondering this too. I'm assuming it will take more work to wall in for Terrans at the bottom of ramps with the change now as well, if the bunker question results in a 'no.'
Either way it benefits early game ZvT 
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On December 05 2010 00:22 Shinkugami wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:17 ltortoise wrote:
So now you're insulting Terran players as a whole, and making ridiculous claims about how much micro they need to do to win (clicking twice).
The number of totally unskilled terrans having climbed their way up with overpowered bioballs proves my point. Even in so-called "pro" matches you often see terrans go marine marauder for 30 minutes on and still ram straight through protoss players with storms/colossus or zergs with tier 3 units... Doesn't take any skill or micro to spam tier 1 units and 1a; Any idiot can do it and the current ladder is proof enough of that.
Why is microing extremely fragile units like marines supposed to take less skill than 1a clicking ultralisks?
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On December 05 2010 00:31 Armsved wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:29 ltortoise wrote:On December 05 2010 00:28 Armsved wrote:
As a T player, I honestly dont feel this is going to matter at all in any of my MUs. I dont understand why any terrans would engage in this discussion. It might make some difference in ZvP, but nothing big. The real matter is ZvZ, and any non Z player should just stay the hell away from that dicussion. You don't think Ravens will now become an effective unit to mass in the lategame against Zerg? Every time I tried it before I'd suffer huge losses to fungal. Now it looks doable. I dont know how you will get to lategame with the production to mass that. Its like massing BCs before they got nerfed. Its expensive, you wont get to the lategame with the production to support it and there will be big gaps of timing for the zerg to exploit it.
I'm confused. I'm talking about massing them IN the late game. Not massing them before the late game in preparation for it.
If you're on four bases, adding two starports for Ravens isn't going to create some huge timing for the Zerg to come kill you...
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On December 05 2010 00:09 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:07 ltortoise wrote:On December 05 2010 00:04 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 05 2010 00:02 ltortoise wrote:On December 05 2010 00:01 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:59 ltortoise wrote:On December 04 2010 23:57 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:55 MasterFischer wrote:On December 04 2010 23:53 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:51 kedinik wrote:
In my experience I need infestors against mass banshee and mass mutalisk or I will die almost every time, unless I mass mutalisk.
Like, maybe this won't break the game but this would shut down the (riskier, more micro intensive and interesting) tech route alternative to mutalisks in ZvT and ZvZ. i dont see how mass muta can beat mass air from terran without fungal. HSM, PDD, no harrasment options, mix in a thor and youll get your muta 1 shot. Hydra, Muta, lings Was there anything you missed? Hydras rape air, so does muta and so does corrupters. Lings own Thor. What's the problem? You can run away from SM, and PDD dont last forever against mass hydra and muta or you could try, you know, troll less, read more. To be perfectly honest you seem to be the one that is trolling. Patch notes are out for one night, and you already have it allll figured out. You must be some sort of RTS savant to already understand the entire patch and all possible strategic implications that will result in a single night. You're the man! Seriously. Less blanket statements. More testing. please next time before you make a stupid post read the conversation youre quoting. Thank you. I did read it. You're acting like you have the whole post-patch metagame 100% figured out. You don't. Can I make this any more clear? Stop acting like you understand all the implications of the patch because at this point I don't think anybody does. are you a troll too or can you possibly be this stupid? I said i dont think mass muta can beat terran air without fungal. And he told me to build hydra? Get it? Discussing hydra is irrelevant to the thought wether mass muta can beat terran air or not. You're welcome Why in the world should mass muta be able to counter ALL terran air? Or mass muta + 1 fungal. Why should this be the case? why should marauders counter roaches?
oh, christ this conversation.
ok, i'll start - why do marauders counter stalkers?
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Because marines are super cheap and incredibly available, while Ultralisks are super expensive and possibly the hardest unit in the game to tech to. If you let Z get to Ultralisks in TvZ, they SHOULD counter Marines, because that's how they're designed.
Anyway, I can't believe I've been sucked into this. Hooray for chat channels! Hooray for cheaper observers/phoenixes! Hooray for Protoss no longer blocking me from my XP!
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On December 05 2010 00:31 butchji wrote:
In BroodWar the Observatory was required (added additional time till you can get observers) And now they for some reason lowered the costs of observers eventhough you can get them extremely quickly? A terran scan is limited by the time the scan runs, only spots a certain area and costs potential 400 minerals you get from mules.
Maybe someone can enlighten me why this was necessary?
A) It doesn't cost "400 minerals" (it's not that much), and even if it were, it's just that you don't get it sooner. It's not like those minerals disappear forever.
B) This isn't Brood War - the metagame, while similar in a general sense, can't really be compared in that sense. Yes, that was the decision making process when they decided the price for Observers when they started the beta, but times have changed.
Also. For the Fungal Growth nerf, while, just to clarify, I don't think it was necessary at all - in fact, I don't see why Blizzard felt they needed to do that whatsoever - I also don't think it's gamebreaking or anything. Spore Crawlers will hold of Phoenixes until they reach a fairly high amount (around eight or more, I'd say). By then you should be able to get Corruptors, which, although they won't be able to chase down Phoenixes, will be able to hold off the harass for an indefinite amount of time.
Then you already have the unit you need to help deal with the Colossus transition which will inevitably come. Obviously there are a lot of timings to work out here but I think that's a fairly simple (conceptually simple, obviously not as simple in execution) way to deal with the 2 base 2 stargate then transition to 2 robo Colossus build which will be popular for the next two weeks or so, I'd say.
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On December 05 2010 00:24 Reborn58 wrote:
Oh no! Now zerg might have to have an actual mixture of units instead of just spamming mutas....what a shame that they will have to think a little past "MUTAAAAS DURRRR, NOW ULTRAAAA"
You must be the shittiest player on the ladder if you manage to lose to nothing but mass mutas.
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On December 05 2010 00:29 Mascherano wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:19 Piy wrote:
The issue isn't the damage dealt, its that P and T can flick around the map with their air and even if you do have the creep spread to deal with it, not having fungal growth means that there is nothing worrying them. So you have to play very defensive with your hydras as a result. Or go Muta, not that Muta works vs Phoenix without fungal growth.
Hopefully they won't put through the silly change, the rest of the patch is good. Describes how every T and P feels when Zerg go mutas and they get more than 6.On to the FG nerf. Before this nerf that hasn't even happened, all zerg say is "Just don't clump up your phoenixes, learn to separate them so that FG isn't as effective. Well now you guys can learn not to clump up your mutas, and divide them into groups so you can flank/sandwich our phoenixes.
Absolutely Perfectly put. I was hoping for a muta nerf, who gives a fuck about FG. P have a way of dealing with it now. Mutas/bling still coutners every T army so effectively. I will never understand why blizz is letting magic box mutas hard counter Thors which are supposed to be the hard counter to mutas. Absolutely horrible balance.
Im starting to become very happy with the non-hold down key for Z. Morphing 50 blings actully takes micro now and is not instantaneous. So Marine/tank/medivac versus more calm waves of blings is alot more balanced of a fight now. I do feel bad that Z's are going to prolly get carpal tunnel now tho.
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EPT
