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On December 04 2010 23:35 aquanda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 16:34 spacemonkeyy wrote:
Protoss player here.
Have been wanting a buff for a long time, and for the most of the part I am happy. I think people are blowing the phoenix issue completely out of the water. This may result in 1-2 more phoenix than per usual generally. People tend to forget that even if units were instabuilt there is still a cap to how many of them you can produce (your resources) so it is not like the toss players are going to necessarily get that much more (perhaps a little faster and with less stargates). Seriously 1-2 more phoenix per ball is a non-issue, can only harrass and require a tech switch to win the game anyway. Plenty of counters to phoenix.
PVP- good to see an anti-collosus unit that isn't a collosus- very happy
PVT- cheaper obs and quicker hallucinate may allow non-robo openings vs terran (quick hallucinate to scout for banshees) although not convinced it will really fix the main issues which is that blizzard nerfed the hell out of battlecruisers/repears and now most terran go bio so then most toss go collosus. I am very glad the repair issue has been patched although I can't help but feel like they should have restored battlecruisers and nerfed the MMM ball. Time will tell
PVZ- not sure what to make of this match-up. Currently I think it is fairly balanced as is which is why I am confused to why they are tinkering with it. I'm sure a lot of protoss players have been in the situation where they have 10 mutas fly into their base and they haven't got a stargate up and from that point on it is incredibly hard to keep up with production. Mutas are so powerful vs toss and very diverse in their usefulness and currently the muta-ling strategy does seem a little hard to stop. The issue is that phoenix are supposed to be the (sorry Day 9) hard counters to mutas. That is their main purpose in the game, and as it is you almost have to have your first few phoenix out before the mutas pop to really keep up with production. As for FG I saw gunea pig lose his whole phoenix army to 1 FG and have also seen vikings also similarly sniped. I think blizzard want to encourage corrupter (as anti air)/broodlord tech. Also when compared to EMP and Storm seems a lot more powerful, can't be dodged and you can't retreat.
You must be platinum because no high lever player makes mutas vs toss if they want to win. The only reason they make a spire right now is to deal with a pack of pheonix (but not kill of course because there's no way to catch them lol) with corrupter or to deal with collosus with corrupter. Muta is so easily countered with sentry stalker (which every toss will be making all game anyway) muta is a guaranteed loss. Find me a top zerg beating a top toss with mass muta in the last 3 weeks and I'll apologize for assuming your ladder rank.
Leenockfou vs TSL_GuineaPig game 2, It's lost temple, but there are a few maps in the map pool where mutalisks are perfectly viable against protoss even with phoenix on the field.
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On December 04 2010 23:59 MasterFischer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 23:56 MrKermit wrote:On December 04 2010 23:53 MasterFischer wrote:
The Zerg whine takes no end.
Amuzing. yeah, unlike terrans who didnt say a thing when the supply before racks or factory reaper upgrade occured wait... anyway, good patch nonetheless, im just sad for zvz Im a 2600 Terran, and I didn't say SHIT, when the terran nerfs went in. Not a thing. In fact, I clapped my hands and cheered em on, because they were needed.. Don't whine when your race gets the nerf, it's often times needed, and PLAY THE DAMN TEST SERVER, before u whine ur lungs out like a kid.
yeah, just like i'm not whinning
most zerg are whinning, just as most terrans were, meh
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On December 04 2010 23:59 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 23:57 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:55 MasterFischer wrote:On December 04 2010 23:53 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:51 kedinik wrote:
In my experience I need infestors against mass banshee and mass mutalisk or I will die almost every time, unless I mass mutalisk.
Like, maybe this won't break the game but this would shut down the (riskier, more micro intensive and interesting) tech route alternative to mutalisks in ZvT and ZvZ. i dont see how mass muta can beat mass air from terran without fungal. HSM, PDD, no harrasment options, mix in a thor and youll get your muta 1 shot. Hydra, Muta, lings Was there anything you missed? Hydras rape air, so does muta and so does corrupters. Lings own Thor. What's the problem? You can run away from SM, and PDD dont last forever against mass hydra and muta or you could try, you know, troll less, read more. To be perfectly honest you seem to be the one that is trolling. Patch notes are out for one night, and you already have it allll figured out. You must be some sort of RTS savant to already understand the entire patch and all possible strategic implications that will result in a single night. You're the man! Seriously. Less blanket statements. More testing.
please next time before you make a stupid post read the conversation youre quoting.
Thank you.
User was warned for this post
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I don't know about Blizzard, but here's what I see as a non-player when I read this thread.
I see what people have been saying every other patch. The game will break, the race will die, Blizzard are idiots.
Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but this is really boy crying wolf at this point. There's no good reason for Blizzard to pay attention to any of this.
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Who the hell went mass bainshees and viking anyway, before the patch in TvZ Nobody !
And it wasn't the fear of FG killing it, to my best of knowledge.
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On December 05 2010 00:01 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 23:59 ltortoise wrote:On December 04 2010 23:57 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:55 MasterFischer wrote:On December 04 2010 23:53 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:51 kedinik wrote:
In my experience I need infestors against mass banshee and mass mutalisk or I will die almost every time, unless I mass mutalisk.
Like, maybe this won't break the game but this would shut down the (riskier, more micro intensive and interesting) tech route alternative to mutalisks in ZvT and ZvZ. i dont see how mass muta can beat mass air from terran without fungal. HSM, PDD, no harrasment options, mix in a thor and youll get your muta 1 shot. Hydra, Muta, lings Was there anything you missed? Hydras rape air, so does muta and so does corrupters. Lings own Thor. What's the problem? You can run away from SM, and PDD dont last forever against mass hydra and muta or you could try, you know, troll less, read more. To be perfectly honest you seem to be the one that is trolling. Patch notes are out for one night, and you already have it allll figured out. You must be some sort of RTS savant to already understand the entire patch and all possible strategic implications that will result in a single night. You're the man! Seriously. Less blanket statements. More testing. please next time before you make a stupid post read the conversation youre quoting. Thank you.
I did read it. You're acting like you have the whole post-patch metagame 100% figured out.
You don't. Can I make this any more clear? Stop acting like you understand all the implications of the patch because at this point I don't think anybody does.
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Removing pylon walls is pretty awesome.
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On December 05 2010 00:01 MrKermit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 23:59 MasterFischer wrote:On December 04 2010 23:56 MrKermit wrote:On December 04 2010 23:53 MasterFischer wrote:
The Zerg whine takes no end.
Amuzing. yeah, unlike terrans who didnt say a thing when the supply before racks or factory reaper upgrade occured wait... anyway, good patch nonetheless, im just sad for zvz Im a 2600 Terran, and I didn't say SHIT, when the terran nerfs went in. Not a thing. In fact, I clapped my hands and cheered em on, because they were needed.. Don't whine when your race gets the nerf, it's often times needed, and PLAY THE DAMN TEST SERVER, before u whine ur lungs out like a kid. yeah, just like i'm not whinning most zerg are whinning, just as most terrans were, meh
well terrans sort of dont have the right to whine seeing as how your fucking race has 10 of the 12 people qualified for IEM finals and other tourneys dont look any better for zerg either.
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On December 04 2010 23:34 Rflcrx wrote:
Funny thing is: Zerg whine the least. Zerg was up for a long time and it was cool.
That's gotta be one of the most funny and at the same time sad line ever.
Where were you last couple of months? Because you sure as hell wasn't meeting any zerg players.
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Just saw the these. Interesting changes tbh.
I hope they really change this:
• ZERG
-- Infestor
Fungal Growth no longer affects air units.
But anyway, thanks for posting, otherwise i would've missed it! Chat channels are more than welcome. 
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Grrrr I'm just working through the amount the infestor nerf is going to mess up the Zerg mu's. Right now Infestors are a great anti harrassment unit, that's great vs ground units as well as air. It is the only viable response to mass muta in ZvZ (there is no response now, every mid/late game will be mass muta only) it was the only non muta response to mass banshee in ZvT (you must get Muta in that MU vs Banshee now, theres no other possible tech path) It was one of the only reasons that mass phoenix for protoss wasn't particularly strong. It was one of the most interesting way's of dealing with medivac and warp prism harass.
Now theres none of that. Harass is much stronger, and zerg lost a major way of dealing with air. Not saying it will be imbalanced, but its going to make the mu's stagnate.
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But the terrans were QQing when the patch came out nowhere and basicly took out every terran cheese to date, but zergs are now whining when this changes arent even final its only test server...
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ZvZ is just going to be 'who has the most mutalisks' now that fungal growth doesn't work on air.
Also if you thinkt hat zerg's always get mutalisks anyway, stop commenting.
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Patch notes are out for one night, and you already have it allll figured out.
You must be some sort of RTS savant to already understand the entire patch and all possible strategic implications that will result in a single night. You're the man!
You realize it's pretty easy to figure out what kind of effects most of these retarded changes will bring ?
"Patch says tiger outruns cat" OLOLOLOLOOL THEORY CRAFTOR JUST TRY IT FIRST !!
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On December 05 2010 00:00 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 23:35 aquanda wrote:On December 04 2010 16:34 spacemonkeyy wrote:
Protoss player here.
Have been wanting a buff for a long time, and for the most of the part I am happy. I think people are blowing the phoenix issue completely out of the water. This may result in 1-2 more phoenix than per usual generally. People tend to forget that even if units were instabuilt there is still a cap to how many of them you can produce (your resources) so it is not like the toss players are going to necessarily get that much more (perhaps a little faster and with less stargates). Seriously 1-2 more phoenix per ball is a non-issue, can only harrass and require a tech switch to win the game anyway. Plenty of counters to phoenix.
PVP- good to see an anti-collosus unit that isn't a collosus- very happy
PVT- cheaper obs and quicker hallucinate may allow non-robo openings vs terran (quick hallucinate to scout for banshees) although not convinced it will really fix the main issues which is that blizzard nerfed the hell out of battlecruisers/repears and now most terran go bio so then most toss go collosus. I am very glad the repair issue has been patched although I can't help but feel like they should have restored battlecruisers and nerfed the MMM ball. Time will tell
PVZ- not sure what to make of this match-up. Currently I think it is fairly balanced as is which is why I am confused to why they are tinkering with it. I'm sure a lot of protoss players have been in the situation where they have 10 mutas fly into their base and they haven't got a stargate up and from that point on it is incredibly hard to keep up with production. Mutas are so powerful vs toss and very diverse in their usefulness and currently the muta-ling strategy does seem a little hard to stop. The issue is that phoenix are supposed to be the (sorry Day 9) hard counters to mutas. That is their main purpose in the game, and as it is you almost have to have your first few phoenix out before the mutas pop to really keep up with production. As for FG I saw gunea pig lose his whole phoenix army to 1 FG and have also seen vikings also similarly sniped. I think blizzard want to encourage corrupter (as anti air)/broodlord tech. Also when compared to EMP and Storm seems a lot more powerful, can't be dodged and you can't retreat.
You must be platinum because no high lever player makes mutas vs toss if they want to win. The only reason they make a spire right now is to deal with a pack of pheonix (but not kill of course because there's no way to catch them lol) with corrupter or to deal with collosus with corrupter. Muta is so easily countered with sentry stalker (which every toss will be making all game anyway) muta is a guaranteed loss. Find me a top zerg beating a top toss with mass muta in the last 3 weeks and I'll apologize for assuming your ladder rank. Leenockfou vs TSL_GuineaPig game 2, It's lost temple, but there are a few maps in the map pool where mutalisks are perfectly viable against protoss even with phoenix on the field.
Well julyzerg went muta then switch to corruptors, surprisingly strong.
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On December 05 2010 00:02 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:01 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:59 ltortoise wrote:On December 04 2010 23:57 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:55 MasterFischer wrote:On December 04 2010 23:53 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:51 kedinik wrote:
In my experience I need infestors against mass banshee and mass mutalisk or I will die almost every time, unless I mass mutalisk.
Like, maybe this won't break the game but this would shut down the (riskier, more micro intensive and interesting) tech route alternative to mutalisks in ZvT and ZvZ. i dont see how mass muta can beat mass air from terran without fungal. HSM, PDD, no harrasment options, mix in a thor and youll get your muta 1 shot. Hydra, Muta, lings Was there anything you missed? Hydras rape air, so does muta and so does corrupters. Lings own Thor. What's the problem? You can run away from SM, and PDD dont last forever against mass hydra and muta or you could try, you know, troll less, read more. To be perfectly honest you seem to be the one that is trolling. Patch notes are out for one night, and you already have it allll figured out. You must be some sort of RTS savant to already understand the entire patch and all possible strategic implications that will result in a single night. You're the man! Seriously. Less blanket statements. More testing. please next time before you make a stupid post read the conversation youre quoting. Thank you. I did read it. You're acting like you have the whole post-patch metagame 100% figured out. You don't. Can I make this any more clear? Stop acting like you understand all the implications of the patch because at this point I don't think anybody does.
are you a troll too or can you possibly be this stupid?
I said i dont think mass muta can beat terran air without fungal.
And he told me to build hydra?
Get it? Discussing hydra is irrelevant to the thought wether mass muta can beat terran air or not.
You're welcome
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On December 05 2010 00:04 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:02 ltortoise wrote:On December 05 2010 00:01 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:59 ltortoise wrote:On December 04 2010 23:57 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:55 MasterFischer wrote:On December 04 2010 23:53 Sfydjklm wrote:On December 04 2010 23:51 kedinik wrote:
In my experience I need infestors against mass banshee and mass mutalisk or I will die almost every time, unless I mass mutalisk.
Like, maybe this won't break the game but this would shut down the (riskier, more micro intensive and interesting) tech route alternative to mutalisks in ZvT and ZvZ. i dont see how mass muta can beat mass air from terran without fungal. HSM, PDD, no harrasment options, mix in a thor and youll get your muta 1 shot. Hydra, Muta, lings Was there anything you missed? Hydras rape air, so does muta and so does corrupters. Lings own Thor. What's the problem? You can run away from SM, and PDD dont last forever against mass hydra and muta or you could try, you know, troll less, read more. To be perfectly honest you seem to be the one that is trolling. Patch notes are out for one night, and you already have it allll figured out. You must be some sort of RTS savant to already understand the entire patch and all possible strategic implications that will result in a single night. You're the man! Seriously. Less blanket statements. More testing. please next time before you make a stupid post read the conversation youre quoting. Thank you. I did read it. You're acting like you have the whole post-patch metagame 100% figured out. You don't. Can I make this any more clear? Stop acting like you understand all the implications of the patch because at this point I don't think anybody does. are you a troll too or can you possibly be this stupid? I said i dont think mass muta can beat terran air without fungal. And he told me to build hydra? Get it? Discussing hydra is irrelevant to the thought wether mass muta can beat terran air or not. You're welcome
Why in the world should mass muta be able to counter ALL terran air?
Or mass muta + 1 fungal. Why should this be the case?
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On December 04 2010 23:53 Shinkugami wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 23:51 Dauntless wrote:
Am I the only one who finds people who switch race based on balance changes.. well, to put it mildly, funny..?
If you switch race because you realize you picked wrong in the first place because of your play style or similar, or because you wanna try something new, then it's fair enough. But don't you find it kinda weak to just give up on "your" race because of balance changes? Honestly.. They used to be called lamers and scrubs. Nowadays it's called "pro doing what's best to win".
This makes me sad.. I respect the pros that does it because of playstyle though, like TLO and Morrow. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
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Why the fuck would u go mass muta against air AT ALL?
When zerg got good ground vs air counters?
It seems unless you are able to kill everything with mutas, it's unbalanced.. or if FG and mutas can kill everything then it's over..
Jeesus. I think some zerg players need to rethink their game now, but saying fg is gamebreaking?
I'll wait for the results of pro gamers to decide, thanks.
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Remove grouping of buildings - that's equally fair as removing holding down production keys.
I think 10 sec Phoenix decrease is overkill, well, there's a test realm anyways.
I don't know how much the fg change will impact the game, but I think infestor are kinda too expensive if they can't even fg air anymore. The only thing infested terrans were good for is emoving fg'd medivacs o now they're useless. NP is shit, cause you have to research it.
I don't know, the infestor seems really useless now. Don't get me wrong, FG is great. But man, 200 gas for one infestor plus the cost of the pit plus some time/extra costs for patho glands :S
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EPT
