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On December 04 2010 15:53 theherder2 wrote:
i feel like if they're going to buff phoenix time and nerf fungals, they need to do more to prevent phoenix harrass.. like increase the energy required to graviton beam from 50 < 100 or more. Once a lot of phoenixes are made, 50 energy is like nothing to pick up tons of drones or army.
If you do that you may as well make them only attack once, lose moving shot, and be able to attack ground.
Which is basically a Mutalisk.
I think -10 seconds on the build time is way too much, make it 40 seconds (Down 5 from previous, up 5 from what it is now) would be just fine.
I think this was an attempt to deal with Mutalisks late game, without thinking about the consequences early game.
I also thought the Zealot built time was too great an increase, 30-38 seconds was quite unreasonable.
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On December 04 2010 15:54 Lyw9475 wrote:
making 30 baenlings
before pressing e- takes approxi 1.5 sec
after press e 30 times eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee takes approx 6~7 sec
what if this difference builds up???
macro z gonna be so much hard to do
there have been lots of stupid patch
but this is by far the stupiest fucking crap ever
i'm hoping that this is just larva as it says in the patch notes but i dk >.>
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Oh boy I'm going to use bunkers even more vs Zerg now xD
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On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying.
My thoughts on the matter basically.
I don't see the reason for the removal of FG. It's a powerful spell in it's niche form, not so powerful however that it needs a nerf. I don't really see that much judification of that nerf.
Bunker time is temporary, but why? Terran don't need it for defense, so it not a step in right direction imo.
Phoenix is already damn powerful and incredibly annoying. Find buffing that just really silly.
I love the repair change though(should've happend earlier). I wonder though if it's what we're really looking for, or that additional "nerf" wont be required, since this I assume just effects a-moving, not where you are focus firing(though ofcourse this makes it a lot easier to switch from focus fire to attacking scvs).
I'm not sure about the ultra change. They always seem to either be overpowered or underpowered, wish they'd find a middle ground(and have the dmg originate from the ultra, not it's target and balance from there).
If I understood it right, if zerg has to mash their buttons like no-tomorrow to make units... Well that's retarded. Hope we're reading it wrong.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51623 Posts
I AM RAGE!!!!!
seriously blizzard....seriously
wheres the natural expansion?
but with chat channels ladder will start dying slowly but surely since a lot of custom maps are epic.(iCCup)
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On December 04 2010 15:45 kaisr wrote:
cool... i played 5 games on test server none of them lasted over 5 minutes one guy just left right away, one guy scv rushed me, 2 guys 6 pooled me 1 guy proxy 2 gated me ... wtf?
did i just mess up or can u not do complete wall anymore? like i saw 6 pool and couldnt get a gateway+forge wall up?
Haha, I just think its people trying to cheese their way through the new placements.
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On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying.
Well, infestors would be able to have the exact same use they have now for stopping drops, it's just that instead of insta-gibbing dropships and making the drop 100% worthless, now the dropship/troops can actually be salvaged instead of 100% suicide mission vs the good Zergs that are abusing infestors. So the infestor would have to fungal units after or as they unload, rather than insta-gibs and then loling at the Terran.
ZvZ tho...yeah...lol..
And dunno bout the phoenix/void ray thing in PvZ now...phoenixs obv are getting real popular vs Zerg, and there's that collosus/phoenix vs Terran that would get massive strength from it too.
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On December 04 2010 15:55 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. i agree about the rest but if phoenix is so powerful then why do i never see it used in pvt (and not even very much in pvz) just serious question
The reason it is so viable in PvZ is the isolation of AA in the early transition to midgame. You can severely punish late Lair tech with some fast phoenix play due to the only AA being Queens. It pretty much forces a strong Queen force or Hydra play. Especially with the lack of FG working on packs of Phoenixes to stop their abusive mobility.
PvT has marines which are an extremely cost effective way to take out packs of Phoenixes. Also, the availability of Vikings in almost any tech path makes them even less viable the later the game goes.
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On December 04 2010 10:57 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 10:55 Zelniq wrote:
oh my fucking god
now why would they remove the ability to fungal air. goddamnit prolly cuz it's too op vs a big clump of air units? -.-
If you suck enough to clump your air units, why the hell do you punish the player smart enough to take advantage of that? How hard is it to split your air into 2 or 3 hotkeys when you know there are Infestors out and about?
Not very.
Stupid change. Utterly stupid change.
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On December 04 2010 15:49 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +Infestors are the only caster that don't have a direct attacking function (besides crappy infested terran). Morphing into an Archon is not a direct attack. It's about as indirect as it gets: the unit stops being a High Templar. Permanently. Who cares if it "got a nerf?" What matters is the answer to this question: Is Fungal Growth effective? It is no longer effective against air units, but it retains its utility vs. ground. And ground units, like Marines and Marauders, are still susceptible to FG.
Direct was the wrong word to use, but the point still remains that it is an ability. There's no point in arguing logistics like you mention with arguing "who cares if it got a nerf, just if it's effective". The point being is that HT being able to morph into Archon is already a huge plus for the HT. Infestors rarely even survive to get it's second FG,
To answer your question, people only got Infestors in ZvP to deal with Air and Blink Stalkers maybe. Now they can't even deal with air. It also lost it's ability to nullify drops in ZvT and prevent large Muta packs from just hit and running. People say that Zergs should just learn to deal with Mutas, but you know, Zerg has pretty horrid AA to deal with Muta packs. There's no mineral dump into Marines and AA splash in Thors, or Blink Stalkers. There are Hydras that are slow off creep, and can easily get overwhelmed by units in lower tier (roaches/banelings).
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On December 04 2010 11:39 TedJustice wrote:
Zergs might actually have to start using corrupters, their anti-air unit, against air now.
Quoted for truth.
All zerg stop complaining already. Protoss has been needing a buff since forever, so just learn to play using more than mutalisks now -I KNOW shock right, that you have to do so =/
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i feel that phoenix build time was really ridiculous
early air superiority would be so good specially against zerg since they have a supply balloon called overlord
and to think they can move while shooting and use graviton beam
I also can't believe that someone want to even have a energy upgrade for phoenix lol
And FG can't hit air now, you wouldn't see FG in ZVZ much now....
It will be more like spine crawlers turtling then mass as many mutas at 1 base
That only thing good about the patch was SCV repair, I think many would agree with this
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On December 04 2010 15:59 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 10:57 travis wrote:On December 04 2010 10:55 Zelniq wrote:
oh my fucking god
now why would they remove the ability to fungal air. goddamnit prolly cuz it's too op vs a big clump of air units? -.- If you suck enough to clump your air units, why the hell do you punish the player smart enough to take advantage of that? How hard is it to split your air into 2 or 3 hotkeys when you know there are Infestors out and about? Not very. Stupid change. Utterly stupid change.
that's kind of fair... but vs a very big air army, that's easier said than done i think. like 20 phoenixes even if u spread them out a fungal growth is gonna catch like 6+
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On December 04 2010 15:42 cHaNg-sTa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 15:41 rbx270j wrote:
Infestors are the only caster that don't have a direct attacking function (besides crappy infested terran).
I'm pretty sure HTs can't attack Archons buddy. I wish I can combine my Infestors to make one.
True, but Archons aren't really Casters in any way, are they?
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Zerg that spend too much time macroing and going to lair tech late will be punished with mass phoenix. Also punished for not scouting with mass phoenix.
This is how starcraft is SUPPOSED to be. I dont get the crying =/
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What new units are they introducing in Heart of the Swarm?
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On December 04 2010 16:00 andrewwiggin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 11:39 TedJustice wrote:
Zergs might actually have to start using corrupters, their anti-air unit, against air now. Quoted for truth. All zerg stop complaining already. Protoss has been needing a buff since forever, so just learn to play using more than mutalisks now -I KNOW shock right, that you have to do so =/
you obv didn't watch top level pvz enough or know how to deal with muta/ling :/.
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On December 04 2010 16:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 16:00 andrewwiggin wrote:On December 04 2010 11:39 TedJustice wrote:
Zergs might actually have to start using corrupters, their anti-air unit, against air now. Quoted for truth. All zerg stop complaining already. Protoss has been needing a buff since forever, so just learn to play using more than mutalisks now -I KNOW shock right, that you have to do so =/ you obv didn't watch top level pvz enough or know how to deal with muta/ling :/.
You turtle and all in off two base saccing all your probes! Am I doing it right?
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On December 04 2010 15:59 Durn wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 15:55 travis wrote:On December 04 2010 15:40 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
There are a lot of good things in this patch, but there are three huge problems to me....
Fungal Growth
This is to my mind the absolutely biggest change - fungal doesnt see a ton of use as a staple part of current ZvT, but I have always thought the potential was there, and now its just not. This is basically saying "make mutalisks or die to drops", which just isnt right.
In addition, this is going to make broodlords SOOOO much worse - you will never catch defending vikings now unless you have, you guessed it, mass mutas.
Also, ZvZ is back to mutas. Lol.
Bunker build time
Seriously =[? Its nice on the defense, but on the attack, do you really want more allin?
Phoenix
..... The phoenix is ridiculously powerful already, are you fucking kidding me mang. Zerg and Terran users all over the world be crying. i agree about the rest but if phoenix is so powerful then why do i never see it used in pvt (and not even very much in pvz) just serious question The reason it is so viable in PvZ is the isolation of AA in the early transition to midgame. You can severely punish late Lair tech with some fast phoenix play due to the only AA being Queens. It pretty much forces a strong Queen force or Hydra play. Especially with the lack of FG working on packs of Phoenixes to stop their abusive mobility. PvT has marines which are an extremely cost effective way to take out packs of Phoenixes. Also, the availability of Vikings in almost any tech path makes them even less viable the later the game goes.
yeah im just wondering if his complaints of phoenix power are in regards to only pvz or if he thinks they are so powerful in pvt as well, and if so, why. ive never seen them accomplish much in pvt -.-. outside of like some old replays of socke that is, lol. and pvts where the P is way ahead anyways.
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wow what drastic changes perhaps the big nerf to PF's that everyones really wanted? Not sure if i agree with the no fungal on air....
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EPT
