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On January 24 2011 08:19 Thenno wrote:
The 3gate 6:30 attack with 7 zeal/5 stalkers has been around for awhile, I picked it up when HuK mentioned he had a lot of problems with it on the Korean ladder.
I've had reasonable succes with it in PvP, smashing most early zeal and robo builds, and also the occasional 4gate. However, the recent 5:45 1 zeal/5 stalker with a additional +4 zealot following soon is pretty hard to hold since they can contain you if you don't establish map control and switch into robo or blinkstalker tech, or expand. If you can establish early map control you can hold it of, but the 4gater usually gets a sentry and turtles up to collossi when he can't get the proxy pylon up.
Personally I only use the 3gate nowadays on Macrolopolis (and sometimes DQ) close position, and Steppes of War. On bigger maps, your zealots just have to walk too far before warpgates finish and it'll delay your attack too much (critical point is the first immortal from robo builds, if they have a sentry to cut you on the ramp, that's usually around 7:00, if they get the immortal earlier you can usually win because they cut too much gateway units and will simply be overwhelmed).
Transitioning from 3gate to fourgate works well though, if you're trading units with the oppo get an additional gateway asap or you're going to lose. Robo doesn't cut it usually for me.
Ooooo interesting, can you show me a replay of the 5:45? It sounds deadly as fuck.
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pls post the build order for the 3gate thing
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On January 24 2011 15:22 snafulator wrote:
pls post the build order for the 3gate thing
Here you go:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171264
Download the replay by Blink, he executes it perfectly. I practiced the build well over 80 times to get the timings down PERFECTLY. Once you do that, it's so effective and you can just modify it from there based on what you scout.
I open with this build every game since it defends any cheese, early pressure and the like. So once I get the initial build down at 6:30 I decide if I want to push, so I scout and if they have a weak force going I will push, proxy pylon and win, or I will just probe up super hard and expand.
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On January 25 2011 01:08 eveo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 15:22 snafulator wrote:
pls post the build order for the 3gate thing Here you go: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171264Download the replay by Blink, he executes it perfectly. I practiced the build well over 80 times to get the timings down PERFECTLY. Once you do that, it's so effective and you can just modify it from there based on what you scout. I open with this build every game since it defends any cheese, early pressure and the like. So once I get the initial build down at 6:30 I decide if I want to push, so I scout and if they have a weak force going I will push, proxy pylon and win, or I will just probe up super hard and expand.
thank you <3
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On January 24 2011 13:56 eveo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 08:19 Thenno wrote:
The 3gate 6:30 attack with 7 zeal/5 stalkers has been around for awhile, I picked it up when HuK mentioned he had a lot of problems with it on the Korean ladder.
I've had reasonable succes with it in PvP, smashing most early zeal and robo builds, and also the occasional 4gate. However, the recent 5:45 1 zeal/5 stalker with a additional +4 zealot following soon is pretty hard to hold since they can contain you if you don't establish map control and switch into robo or blinkstalker tech, or expand. If you can establish early map control you can hold it of, but the 4gater usually gets a sentry and turtles up to collossi when he can't get the proxy pylon up.
Personally I only use the 3gate nowadays on Macrolopolis (and sometimes DQ) close position, and Steppes of War. On bigger maps, your zealots just have to walk too far before warpgates finish and it'll delay your attack too much (critical point is the first immortal from robo builds, if they have a sentry to cut you on the ramp, that's usually around 7:00, if they get the immortal earlier you can usually win because they cut too much gateway units and will simply be overwhelmed).
Transitioning from 3gate to fourgate works well though, if you're trading units with the oppo get an additional gateway asap or you're going to lose. Robo doesn't cut it usually for me. Ooooo interesting, can you show me a replay of the 5:45? It sounds deadly as fuck.
1 Zeal 5 Stalker at 5:45 vs 2 Zeal 6 Stalker at 5:48... doesn't sound too amazing to me.
Also I have no idea why anyone would do 7 Zeal 5 Stalker at 6:30 when you can do it at 6:15 with 6 Zeal 6 Stalker even.
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I'm wondering (and this is a serious question, not intended to be whining or anything about imbalance) why people keep trying new builds like this 3 Gate Allin instead of learning how to play the game? On a long run, it's probably about 100 times more effective if you learn to play a macro game.
I can't see those Allin builds still be good in a year or two, simply because the more people play, the more they get used to the builds they play against.
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The 3 gate play isn't really an all in Chise. Its almost always a transition to something else (like an expo!). But it gets enough units that if you scout your opponent and he went too tech heavy or decided on an FE, you can punish them. I think someone pointed out a while ago that producing out of 4 gates from 1 base was not actually the most efficient way to produce gateway units, and a well done 3 gate can beat a 4 gate. (I don't actually believe 1 base is enough to produce off 4 gateways constantly, maybe zeals and sentries)
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lol god if alot of people did this it would probably mess with the ladder so much, especially if most of the people were diamond/masters level, imagine if someone made a 100 6pool thread to see how many diamond/masters players would try it
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On January 25 2011 05:51 Chise wrote:
I'm wondering (and this is a serious question, not intended to be whining or anything about imbalance) why people keep trying new builds like this 3 Gate Allin instead of learning how to play the game? On a long run, it's probably about 100 times more effective if you learn to play a macro game.
I can't see those Allin builds still be good in a year or two, simply because the more people play, the more they get used to the builds they play against.
Ever heard of a timing push or are you bronze? Push at 6:30 + expo, retreat if its failing. I love how everyone who gets pushed at a certain time things it's a total all-in when it's not. Why would I deliberately elongate the game when the goal is to win as fast as possible (at least for me).
I see zero fun in 4base 30min play, just constant reinforcements of units when your minerals and gas are >5k seems too easy for me. I like really intense micro battles that may cost you the game and that's where my fun comes from.
Can't defend a timing push? Too bad, learn to.
On January 25 2011 06:04 oNSarcasm wrote:
lol god if alot of people did this it would probably mess with the ladder so much, especially if most of the people were diamond/masters level, imagine if someone made a 100 6pool thread to see how many diamond/masters players would try it
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187413
Done.
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On January 23 2011 20:59 eveo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 19:58 Subversion wrote:
The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe. Yup that and you get a FUCK ton of more units as well as probes if you execute the build perfectly. I tested this build on my buddies account (bronze) and got 55 wins, 1 loss ahaha, was just perfecting it. I hit all my timings right and got : 7 zealots 5 stalkers, sentry with 24 probes mining at 6:30 and an expo. If I do the 4gate I made based off the 3gate I can like 1 less unit, but just an extra gate. It's SO beast. Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 20:31 Smigi wrote:
Four gate is extremely potent because of warp-gates. they ignore defenders advantage.
I would like to say to the original thread maker in his main post he notes about people whining about 4 gate.
First of all, yes I agree people shouldn't go around whining about it, but being 'outplayed'? I disagree strongly. By no means is 4gating someone outplaying them.
You utilized little to no macro management skills, little multitasking ect.
You did a cookie-cut build order and used minimal micro.
Once again, I agree people have to stop whining about it, but 'outplayed' part is just false.
There is a huge difference between defeating someone and outplaying them. DERP DERP DERP is what I read on your post. Know why? Because being outplayed has nothing to do with opinion, just game mechanics. Somewhere along the way the opponent didn't defend the 4gate because of many factors, simply means he got outplayed by a 4gate.
If I go 3rax all-in with scvs and win (which i sometimes do vs T and Z) would you call it outskilling? I make 3 barracks, pump marines til 27food, move out with a nearly unstoppable force that early, will most likely win. Took no skills what so ever to execute (well, harder than 4gate but still). I think you missunderstood the phrase "outskill". Winning=/= outskilling. If someone 6pools, they make a pool, 6 zerglings and that's it, there's no skills in a-moving mate;)
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On January 26 2011 10:47 Healingproof wrote:
If I go 3rax all-in with scvs and win (which i sometimes do vs T and Z) would you call it outskilling? I make 3 barracks, pump marines til 27food, move out with a nearly unstoppable force that early, will most likely win. Took no skills what so ever to execute (well, harder than 4gate but still). I think you missunderstood the phrase "outskill". Winning=/= outskilling. If someone 6pools, they make a pool, 6 zerglings and that's it, there's no skills in a-moving mate;) Who said "outskilled" besides you? The argument is, if you lose a game to a 4 gate, you got outplayed. By outplayed, we don't mean that the 4 gater is "better than in all situations," or "clearly more skilled at the game."
But if you are looking at the defeat screen, you definitely got outplayed that game. In fact I'd argue that you got outplayed by the very definition of the word. Maybe the P didn't play exceedingly well, even if the 4 gate was executed flawlessly, it's not that demanding of a strategy. What you are noticing is that it wasn't your opponent's fault you lost; you managed to play worse than a common strategy. You made a mistake to lose to a 4 gate. Maybe it wasn't one you could have avoided in that situation, maybe it was. You can either take responsibility and play better so you stop getting outplayed so often, or you can uselessly complain that the people crushing you with a common strategy aren't skilled enough to lose to you.
If you use that 3 rax build and you manage to beat me, you definitely outplayed me that game. Maybe because I tried to expand and didn't cancel/abandon and move up/ff my ramp. Maybe my scouting was off, or mechanically I effed up my build and was a stalker behind? I don't know, but when you take responsibility for your losses you'll see new ways of dealing with problems.
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On January 26 2011 10:47 Healingproof wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 20:59 eveo wrote:On January 23 2011 19:58 Subversion wrote:
The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe. Yup that and you get a FUCK ton of more units as well as probes if you execute the build perfectly. I tested this build on my buddies account (bronze) and got 55 wins, 1 loss ahaha, was just perfecting it. I hit all my timings right and got : 7 zealots 5 stalkers, sentry with 24 probes mining at 6:30 and an expo. If I do the 4gate I made based off the 3gate I can like 1 less unit, but just an extra gate. It's SO beast. On January 23 2011 20:31 Smigi wrote:
Four gate is extremely potent because of warp-gates. they ignore defenders advantage.
I would like to say to the original thread maker in his main post he notes about people whining about 4 gate.
First of all, yes I agree people shouldn't go around whining about it, but being 'outplayed'? I disagree strongly. By no means is 4gating someone outplaying them.
You utilized little to no macro management skills, little multitasking ect.
You did a cookie-cut build order and used minimal micro.
Once again, I agree people have to stop whining about it, but 'outplayed' part is just false.
There is a huge difference between defeating someone and outplaying them. DERP DERP DERP is what I read on your post. Know why? Because being outplayed has nothing to do with opinion, just game mechanics. Somewhere along the way the opponent didn't defend the 4gate because of many factors, simply means he got outplayed by a 4gate. If I go 3rax all-in with scvs and win (which i sometimes do vs T and Z) would you call it outskilling? I make 3 barracks, pump marines til 27food, move out with a nearly unstoppable force that early, will most likely win. Took no skills what so ever to execute (well, harder than 4gate but still). I think you missunderstood the phrase "outskill". Winning=/= outskilling. If someone 6pools, they make a pool, 6 zerglings and that's it, there's no skills in a-moving mate;)
4gate actually isn't that easy to do, you need to remember to reinforce manually since you can't just queue stuff with purely hotkeys, you need to get the build down properly, and you need to have decent micro.
There's many, many ways to fail with a 4gate, you really understand how difficult it is when you PvP 4gate vs 4gate and see that even most high Diamond/low masters Protosses fail at doing 4gate. You even see many progamers do 4gates poorly, clearly it isn't something a brainless can do properly.
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On January 25 2011 05:51 Chise wrote:
I'm wondering (and this is a serious question, not intended to be whining or anything about imbalance) why people keep trying new builds like this 3 Gate Allin instead of learning how to play the game? On a long run, it's probably about 100 times more effective if you learn to play a macro game.
I can't see those Allin builds still be good in a year or two, simply because the more people play, the more they get used to the builds they play against.
The reason why is because if you have builds built for a macro game but lose in the first 7 minutes, then it doesn't matter if your build was good or not. The 1gas 4gate limits the variety of builds you can do and you have to be prepared for this build before it even hits you. There are 3 builds that I am currently aware of that can hold this off: 1gas 4gate, Sentry Robo, and a build that was explained to me earlier today as a 3gate zealot build which gets you 6zealots 4 stalker instead of 5zealot 6 stalker.
The reason why these builds will ALWAYS be around is because of the in-game mechanic that it relies on; warpgate. No matter how big the map is, if they scout you before 5:50 seconds this build is viable.
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Name/ID: Munsy.943
Division: Silver (Rank 17)
Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 595 (1928 Bonus pool)
Points 11 Games into challenge: 861 (currently 11-0, Silver Rank 9)
Final score: Unknown
Replay pack: Coming SOON ( and not in the blizzard sense)
I figure I'll be a good example to study from as I'm quickly rising through the ranks now and I'll probably either hit diamond or platinum very quickly if this winning streak continues...
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On January 25 2011 05:51 Chise wrote:
I'm wondering (and this is a serious question, not intended to be whining or anything about imbalance) why people keep trying new builds like this 3 Gate Allin instead of learning how to play the game? On a long run, it's probably about 100 times more effective if you learn to play a macro game.
I can't see those Allin builds still be good in a year or two, simply because the more people play, the more they get used to the builds they play against.
Roll on the farking floor laughing. I love how ANY play that isn't pure macro oriented is a one-base all-in now. If armies touch before the 15 minute mark, or before 3 bases are up and running, then you aren't playing the game properly. WTF?
I for one play to have fun and win. I want to get better too, but if that means I have to implement the 15 minute no touching rule, then screw that. No, learning a macro game is not 100 times more effective, not at all. If that were the case then people wouldn't be making the GSL semis by 2 rax all-inn-ing. I'm not advocating getting rid of all macro play in favor of all-inning, but for crying aloud, armies are allowed to touch before you get 3 bases up.
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Not every play that isn't macro is Allin. It's just that if you lose a 4 gate, you are behind because you lost all of your units and you are still on one base, while your opponent is on 2 bases in most of the cases. He can probably delay your expansion a little more, which puts him in the lead even more.
This means, it's practically Allin.
As I didn't really know how this 3 Gate Build worked, I called it an Allin because that's the impression I got from reading. If it's not, that's fine.
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hmm the only thing that this "challenge" will tell us is if it is beneficial to practice 1 build order and get very efficient at it or try to do things you havent done over and over again in 100 best of 1's...
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Name/ID: sCFade.242
Division: Master's
Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 3000
Final score: TBA
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How is anefficient 3 gate, 1 gas scouting pressure all in by any means? Probes are never being cut, and all tech paths are open after the pressure. One is never behind, and I bet a robo + obs can get out before banshee, if the scouting pressure senses banshee. I actually think this pressure build could become a base for all P v anything.
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EPT
