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On January 12 2011 01:17 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 06:48 Sm3agol wrote:On January 11 2011 05:24 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 03:28 Sm3agol wrote:On January 11 2011 02:59 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 02:55 iamke55 wrote:On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:
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ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games.
We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us.
Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more.
Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating. Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss. You're wrong. On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote:
No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill. This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it. Nope you are wrong. I watch pros streams all the time. And they rush and early game cheese/all-in almost more than they do macro games. if you can't 4 gate or defend a 4 gate then you aren't good. It's the most basic protoss build known to man. If it beats you time and time again...don't whine about noobs that can't macro. Yeah, guess why more and more people start losing interest in SC2? Because shit is viable, even on pro level. Just watch BitByBit.Prime play. He has no skill what so ever and still he could make it to Code A. 4 Gate isn't overpowered, it's pretty easy to hold once you know the timing. But there's a difference in being the person who 4gates and being the person who defends. The person who attacks needs no skill at all to do the 4 Gate - All you need to know is: I'm gonna Build my 4 Gates, get my Warpin Tech and then I'm going to attack. Obviously micro helps to make 4 Gate more effective, but that's it. On the other side, the person who defends needs to know a 4gate is coming, else they might lose. So, basically, if 4gate wins, it's not because the person who pulled it off was good, but because his opponent was bad. Hence: Winning with a 4gate doesn't make you a good player. At all. On January 11 2011 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote:
This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would people getting high ratings from 4 gating invalidate the ladder system?
Is 4 gating somehow cheating? No, clearly not since there is no rule inside or outsider the game against it.
Is 4 gate overpowered? Well, if you think it is, protosses should be 4 gating even more so that Blizzard gets aware of the issue and can do something to fix it.
If you don't think 4 gate is cheating or overpowered, then why are you complaining?
Wouldn't it invalidate the rating system even more if players refused to do a strong strategy out of some misplaced sense of honour? As I stated above, 4 gate isn't overpowered. Also, 4 gate isn't cheating. 4 gate is simply a result of the current game design, which is pretty poor if you consider SC2 an esport. The problem with 4gate (and many other allin/cheese plays) is that they don't require skill to pull off, BUT it requires skill do defend such allin/cheese play, because you have to know they are coming and get the right unit mix to defend them. This means that people with lesser skill (4gaters) win against people with higher skill more often than they should, considering that the better out of 2 players should generally win more games. That's the reason I'm complaining. I think SC2 is supposed to be a competitive game where the better player wins, but the current state of the game doesn't make this happen. There seems to be two lines of thought relating to how 4 gating is "bad". And yet you manage to contradict one or the other at all times. One is that its not a true representation of skill level since the attacker can beat the defender more often than their skill level would normally allow. But this argument only holds water if you take ladder to actually mean something, as if it were a tournament of sorts. And yet it is not. It means nothing, it's a number. If we were competing for money, then yes, your argument would be correct. Someone that refuses to learn more than one-base all-ins would be looked down on, because while he would upset some legitimately good players, he would have no chance of proceeding far because there is guaranteed to be someone in the tournament that is at least his equal at one-basing, while also possessing a far superior macro game. This was very evident in the latest Korean matches with 2 rax all-in builds. Sorry, but your argument is absolute bullshit. Nothing in this world has intrinsic value, it's all about perceived value and if you play this game competitively (which for me means you wanna be good & get better, quite simply) then ladder means A LOT to you, since it is the only way to get consistent practice and compete with others. You can't say ladder has no value when people get invited to Blizzcon based off ladder performance. Show nested quote +
But why would this bother you in ladder? If 4-gating you puts me on equal terms with you because in all other respects you are far better, then I need to play you when I 4 gate. I will increase my skill with my 4-gate until I begin to hit the wall of players that are at least my equal at 4-gating. And there I will stop. At that point, my 4 gate "skill" puts me at the same level as everyone else around me. It doesn't lower your rating to beat me, in respect to rating, 4 gate puts me on even footing with you, and hence....we should be matched up in ladder.
If all you do is 4gate and nothing else you WILL get to a very high rating and on your way there you will maintain a positive winratio and decrease the rating (and MMR) of people that do other strategies. Show nested quote +
But the other line of thought is that i learn nothing. And again, why should this concern you? YOU will be just getting more practice against the most common Protoss build on planet earth, while I will be doing what I consider to be fun. Win-win situation. Somehow that makes you angry.
This should concern anyone who is interested in seeing this game evolve past 1-base-allins, who actually wants to see good players play good games. Playing against 4-gate is no fun. People that 4gate because they don't know anything else slow down the evolution of this game, they're doing the community a disservice by deteriorating the rating of players better than them and staying bad players themselves. If you're an asshole that only cares about winning, even at the expense of others, then go ahead pick Protoss and do your 4gate day in and day out. If you are someone who wants to help himself and others understand the game, get better at macroing and don't really care about losing as long as you improve, well, then I guess you're not 4gating on ladder anyway and you can be proud of yourself. Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 11:21 Lorken wrote:
Can we please get some mods in here to stop all this discussion of how the game should be played, I agree, this thread isn't for discussing 4gates but merely the 'challenge' of doing it 100 times in a row, people should discuss this elsewhere.
All I'm going to say is......you're never going to get away from 4 gates and the like. You still see them in GSL/MLG/any tournament you care to name. And they are not op in any way imaginable. So bitching about people 4-gating their way to high ratings is completely useless. It's not like its a cheesy strategy that quits working once you get to high levels of play. The only difference is people are just way better at it, and can transition out of it successfully more. I don't see the problem. A toss won a farking MLG with basically nothing but 4-gate. Toss has some of the cheesiest openings in the book, and playing against it will only help you, as cheese will never quit being a part of this game.
And yes, I'll keep 4-gating/cheesing all day long. Going to do this 100 4-gate challenge soon, and see what it does for me. Atm, it's not a good indicator, because I actually do super cheese quite a lot, even cheesier than 4-gate(8 gate proxy/cannon rush/etc).
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Hmm I should've joined this challenge earlier. I basically just 4 gate and various other early game things every game (except against terran, unless certain circumstances hold). But... I don't like always sticking to one build regardless of what I see so I guess I won't join in 
2721 Diamond Protoss btw, couple hundred bonus pool stocked up as well. Build definitely works well, though you have to transition out sometimes into macro and/or other timing attacks 
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I love it when toss 4gates against me. I feel like its an autowin for me cause I 1raxCC . If i scout 4gate i throw down 4 bunkers while teching to cloaked banshees.
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this is for everyone...
all you need other than your natural race is a few hotkeys and if you're not protoss naturally then it should be easy enough
consider it like if you're tired of everyone being terrible and you want to play in higher leagues with real sc players then 4gate until you get there and then start playing! it should be relatively simple
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4 gate is an all in, it isnt cheese. complaining about all ins in an RTS is a stupid train of thought.
Less qq would benefit the community,
BTW Im zerg and lose to four gate alot right now.
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On January 03 2011 23:16 Shikyo wrote:I've been able to refine the 1gas 4gate down to this: http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9217/4gate.jpgCan probably still shave around 5-10 seconds off that, but even like that it's insanely powerful, I don't think anyone below hiiiiigh diamond should be able to defend against that kind of a rush properly.
you should be able to get the stalkers warping in at 5:45. usually 4 gate is bottle necked by how fast you can get rid of the enemy scouting worker. i like to chrono out my first stalker for this reason
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On January 23 2011 08:25 Quasimoto3000 wrote:
I love it when toss 4gates against me. I feel like its an autowin for me cause I 1raxCC . If i scout 4gate i throw down 4 bunkers while teching to cloaked banshees.
Now what do you do when I have a proxied robo and elevator into your main >:D
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i give an early GG to 4 gaters every time. not because im 100% sure ill beat them its just i hate their guts
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First time doing ladder and I've only been doing 4gates every game so far. Mainly because it's a fairly easy build, can kill most people, and I like to micro.
35games in and I'm mid Gold.
Note I did this because I thought it would be fun and I wasn't following this thread.
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On January 09 2011 06:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 05:23 CurLy[] wrote:
shik can you post your BO or a rep, my 4gate is actually pretty unrefined and I've been playing awhile need to tune it up since im gonna start playing at tourneys :D Chronoboosts go this way: first 2 on probes like normal, third one on probes right after placing pylon, rest all on warpgate upgrade Bo is: 9 Pylon 13 Gate 14 Assim 16 Pylon 18 Core 19 Zealot 22 Second Gate, cap probes now(should be 16 on mins 3 on gas 1 around the map placing pylons) 22 Warpgate Tech 22 Stalker 24 Pylon, proxy if you can 24 2 more Gates 24 Stalker 26 Zealot off second gate 28 Proxy Pylon, make sure it finishes in time for warpins 28 Warp tech done the second your Zealot comes out, morph all gates, warp 4 Stalkers, should be done by 5:50 36 Pylon and so on 2 Zealots 6 Stalkers at 5:50, you'll also have some of the most unit-heavy earlygames possible so be sure to pressure with your Zealot and Stalkers as much as you can, most poorly done 4gates will skip some of these early units. It also would be absolutely wonderful if you can force his early sentry to waste a Force Field to hold your 1-2Stalkers and the Zealot. An adjustment I think could be possible is to make one more probe after the 4 stalkers you warp in, it should help you sustain 4gate production better. Actually, you might also be able to sneak a probe in at 28 right after the pylon. Need to look into slipping a few probes into the build since this build runs out of steam after about 3 warp-ins(not like the opponent usually lives past that but...) This build is cleaner than what I see many top level progamers do, and should be good for every level of play in especially PvP.
hmm this is an improvement over my usual 4 gate cos you get an early 2nd gate and squeeze an extra unit out of it. might try this
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What people don't realize is that, 3gate > 4gate.
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On January 23 2011 09:50 eveo wrote:
What people don't realize is that, 3gate > 4gate.
Dropping a very conditional statement without it's conditions is just plain misleading.
Three gating is stronger early because you have the minerals to get the gates up earlier and pump out some units pre-warpgate. Obviously a fourgate is gonna surpass a threegate pretty fast, I would say around the 7 minute mark (depending on execution of course). However, a threegate does transition a whole lot better. Also, most fourgates just simply die vs. very early timing attacks when you have a zealot and a stalker out with 3 gates warping in and wg-tech on the way. A three gate can usually hold an early push.
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People who use 4gate are bad.
HuK uses 4gate.
HuK is bad.
...??!?!
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On January 23 2011 10:47 Abstinence wrote:
People who use 4gate are bad.
HuK uses 4gate.
HuK is bad.
...??!?!
So does MC and.... yeah.
As well as every other toss in a PvP.
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On January 23 2011 09:35 Mommas Boy wrote:
4 gate is an all in, it isnt cheese. complaining about all ins in an RTS is a stupid train of thought.
Less qq would benefit the community,
BTW Im zerg and lose to four gate alot right now.
And here I thought Roaches counter the 4 gate build or at least let you fend it off until you get mutas... Then again, I'm not a Zerg :I
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well, maybe it is if you go 1 base roach, but a hatch first build usually pops a ton of larvae at around the 6:30 minute mark, but you typically drone up in order to spend money on all of the larvae that come out, so a fast 4 gate hits at around that time or maybe even before... definitely a 1 gas by the protoss is a signal to be alarmed and make adjustments but it is still tough to hold because of this timing
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On January 23 2011 12:03 kyarisan wrote:
well, maybe it is if you go 1 base roach, but a hatch first build usually pops a ton of larvae at around the 6:30 minute mark, but you typically drone up in order to spend money on all of the larvae that come out, so a fast 4 gate hits at around that time or maybe even before... definitely a 1 gas by the protoss is a signal to be alarmed and make adjustments but it is still tough to hold because of this timing
Then don't build drones... scout. Don't build drones unless they're expanding or teching. 4gate hits around 5:30.
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where is drunken jedi 's points?
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People making threads like this are just poisoning the ladders down...
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On January 23 2011 15:08 Healingproof wrote:
People making threads like this are just poisoning the ladders down...
How so? It's a well known build, so people should be very adept at spotting it and dealing with it adequately. Don't make a biased statement just because of your own personal experiences.
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EPT
