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First Five to complete challenge:
1. Drunken.Jedi 2. 3. 4. 5.
Hello fellow TL-ers!
I am here to present a challenge, just like in a training program or whatever.
The Koreans like to practise only one build, so I figured, why not practise 4 gate? Im currently on my 11th match straight 4 gating my way through ladder.
I want you to play 100 games as protoss doing only 4 gate. No matter what happens, you MUST 4 gate and attack. After you 4 gate and try to attack you can do whatever you want.
Then upload your 100 replays pack and state how many points you were in the ladder before you started your challenge, and how many points you were after (you can also post updates as you go.)
How to 4 gate
I think most TL-ers know how to 4 gate (or do they? o.0)
There are many different variations, I use the one were I stop producing probes when I'm at 20 probes, and only chronoboost the nexus once (at 10 supply).
Replay:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108543-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands
How to respond to this thread
Here is a template for all you lazy people on how you respond to this thread:
Name/ID: HaegeN.800 Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1767 (0 Bonus pool) Points 63 Games into challenge: 2076 Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Coming SOON ( and not in the blizzard sense)
Final Note
I would like to say: "LET THE 4 GATE BEGIN", but it began early beta so I shall only say:
Live long and 4 gate! \\//^
EDIT I am doing this because I didnt use to 4 gate that much, and I wanted to see what it would be like So that question is answered before its asked
To the people whining about 4 gate + Show Spoiler +"Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win."
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As a Zerg ladder player, this makes me sad. The 4gate is a ridiculous build to hold at any skill level.
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You should try to do the challenge, maybe you will learn a thing or two about holding it off =)
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The first day...or maybe second day after release I decided to try out the protoss pieces after I made a bunch of reapers as T.
My first thought was something along the lines of "Hey, pretty sure I heard something about making 4 gates and then winning..."
So I made 4 gates, and I won. I named the replay something along the lines of "that was just mean"
I try not to 4 gate anymore xD
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You forgot to add--all the players that have already been 4 gating for hundreds of games need to STOP and track their rating for another 100.
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I was a Protoss player who got to 1700 Diamond by 4gating. Not even joking. I know the build in and out and how much aggression can be on my doorstep at around the 7 minute mark. I also know that once I stopped 4gating I got crushed back into platinum. Hence the race switch.
I'm not calling it imba or anything, in fact I welcome this on the ladder now that I think about it. I need more practice against it. All the protoss practice partners I have don't really do it often.
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Im gonna watch your replay that you linked to, but before I do i want to ask you-do you think you executed your build well in that replay?
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On November 24 2010 15:30 Trebis wrote: You forgot to add--all the players that have already been 4 gating for hundreds of games need to STOP and track their rating for another 100.
lol I totally support this
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its not ridiculous at all to hold? easily scoutable by keeping drone alive, and enuff colonies at your nat = protoss already behind as you tech muta and they grab their nat, the harrassment begins as you toggle between their main and nat doing all types of economic dmg.. 4 gate often fails and just turns out like any other failed all-in, with the player being far behind with no higher tech.. you can gain advantage in many ways vs this build, by teching quicker or holding your expansion... think of it this way.. if you kill the p units with a ling surround/roach and not allow him to retreat his stalkers to reinforce, dont you see how ahead you are? as protoss i have stopped using 4 gate altogether unless the match calls for it..
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The more important question is how does a particular challenge affect one's skill level. I would definitely do one of these if it involved a long term build. Are we allowed not to all in? Can we transition into something?
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Trebis, if you've been straight up 4 gating for hundreds of games this obviously is not for you, I just thought it would be fun to see how peoples rating change and such.
And there is way too many zergs on the ladder now, they need some more 4 gates in the face..
btw tip for Zergs: scout and kill the reinforcement pylon
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On November 24 2010 15:31 MOOG wrote: Im gonna watch your replay that you linked to, but before I do i want to ask you-do you think you executed your build well in that replay?
I think I executed it fairly well, I'm by no means a good player or anything. If you see any clear mistakes please let me know,
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On November 24 2010 15:33 Guard wrote: The more important question is how does a particular challenge affect one's skill level. I would definitely do one of these if it involved a long term build. Are we allowed not to all in? Can we transition into something?
You can definately transition, the point is just to open 4 gate and try to attack.
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I think this would be pretty interesting to see ... 100 games is a lot.
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On November 24 2010 15:36 lac29 wrote: I think this would be pretty interesting to see ... 100 games is a lot.
It is not really that many games when you 4 gate, you see each game lasts between 8-10 minutes, 100 games equals maybe 1200 minutes which is roughly 20 hours of playtime.
Maybe I play too much computer but I don't think that it is really that much..
And 50 4 gate challenge would not sound as good. 100 is a good number.
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4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games
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On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote: 4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games
Well to be honest I think you can't 4 gate each game and win in higher level, but the occasional 4 gate can net you wins for sure.
I think opticzero won versus Tyler that way.
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i'd much prefer to have Protoss do a challenge where they don't go 4 gate for 100 games
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On November 24 2010 15:35 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:31 MOOG wrote: Im gonna watch your replay that you linked to, but before I do i want to ask you-do you think you executed your build well in that replay? I think I executed it fairly well, I'm by no means a good player or anything. If you see any clear mistakes please let me know,
I just watched it. I didnt see any mistakes in your play, and even if you did make mistakes I couldn't tell you, because i'm just an average zerg.
You really caught him with his pants down. nice job. I think it was odd how his scouting drone, his later one, didn't get attacked by your zealot when it tried to run through your choke. and he STILL pulled the drone back. odd decision making on the zerg's part.
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Well now I have a real reason for avoiding ladder. tt
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It's actually a sweet idea, especially now that the ladder is nothing short of *plagued* with Zergplayers. Since they are generally the squeekiest wheels, 4-gating now should be more funny than ever. Plus if people are still complaining about this, they really need a repeated lesson in it. Come on, people, complain about real stuff!...
(...like banshees, we all hate dem things).
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And this is why laddering is so boring and tedious...if you're trying to prove that people can get to unreasonably high rating 4 gating that has already been proven.
Luckily, anyone whose good at any of the 3 races can block it if they know it's coming. Granted some people are better at doing it than others.
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On November 24 2010 15:57 ci_esteban wrote: And this is why laddering is so boring and tedious...if you're trying to prove that people can get to unreasonably high rating 4 gating that has already been proven.
Luckily, anyone whose good at any of the 3 races can block it if they know it's coming. Granted some people are better at doing it than others.
How in the world is this why laddering is "so boring and tedious", please elaborate.. Because all you see in ladder are 4 gates? This is plain out wrong.
And if it is not that which you are referring too what is it exactly? I do not quite get where you are coming from.
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On November 24 2010 15:57 ci_esteban wrote: And this is why laddering is so boring and tedious...if you're trying to prove that people can get to unreasonably high rating 4 gating that has already been proven.
Luckily, anyone whose good at any of the 3 races can block it if they know it's coming. Granted some people are better at doing it than others.
Yeah in my opinion this isn't really needed to prove any points. It appears to already be pretty common knowledge that a 4 gate will get you a high rating if you're a mediocre player faster than almost any other build. I'm not saying that 4 gating automatically makes you bad or something. Certainly a 4 gate from a top player is fearsome especially if not scouted properly.
If this is just for fun then go for it!
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4-gate is strong only because of the warpgate mechanic. It's counterable but not easy to stop. Although, I take great pleasure in beating it.
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Name/ID: Spiegel.401/NA Division: Platinum Points before 100 4Gate Challenge: 172 Bonus Pool : 1553 (6:03PM AEST 24/11/2010*) Final score: Unknown Replay pack: coming soon
Ill do this on my NA account which I have played around 10 games on. It is relatively blank. Also I think people should state their bonus pool gains.as well as their "true" points gains. because just playing the game will get you an inflated rating.
* dates work differently in Australia its day/month/year.
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On November 24 2010 16:05 Spiegel wrote: Name/ID: Spiegel.401/NA Division: Platinum Points before 100 4Gate Challenge: 172 Bonus Pool : 1553 (6:03PM AEST 24/11/2010*) Final score: Unknown Replay pack: coming soon
Ill do this on my NA account which I have played around 10 games on. It is relatively blank. Also I think people should state their bonus pool gains.as well as their "true" points gains. because just playing the game will get you an inflated rating.
* dates work differently in Australia its day/month/year.
Good idea, added it in the template Good luck mate
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* dates work differently in Australia its day/month/year.
This makes too much sense for americans... increasing units of time from left to right?... I bet you also use a base 10 system for measuring things. pussies.
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See, the problem with this is that yes, you'll get really good at 4gateing, but when you're challenge is complete and you sit down to learn and experiment with something else you'll get owned every time because you're matched against players far better than you (far better than anything but your 4gate). This was my lot as protoss until very recently.
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This is soooo tempting but after mastering the art of scouting and defending the 4gate ~70+% of the time, I think I'm good. There comes a point where people defending the 4gate get better at it faster than the people executing it.
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On November 24 2010 16:13 Le BucheRON wrote: See, the problem with this is that yes, you'll get really good at 4gateing, but when you're challenge is complete and you sit down to learn and experiment with something else you'll get owned every time because you're matched against players far better than you (far better than anything but your 4gate). This was my lot as protoss until very recently.
If you think it is a problem to grind through players that are superior to you, just enter and quit 10 games in a row and you'll get right back at your "level", so I don't see the problem really.
After the A hundred 4 gate challenge you could start going 3 gate robo against protoss and terran and 4 gate blink stalker against zerg etc..
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what if someone reads this and knows what i am doing?
fuck
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feeel like a baller for coutnering it,, feel like an ass n rage for losin to it
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Name/ID: Azure.768/NA Division: Diamond Points before 100 4Gate Challenge: 891 Bonus Pool : 1051 lol Final score: not yet Replay pack: coming soon
this is gonna give me some mindless shit to do over thanksgiving break.
im already 0-1
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Neat idea, I would totally do it if I had the time to play as much.
It would be cool if challenges like this would continue with other strategies/races.
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Does it count if I've already done it? My last 100 games have been in this fashion and I've won maye 55-60% of them.
I always, always push at ~6 minutes with 4 stalkers, 4 zealots and 2 sentries. Wins me most games. Especially as I also always warp in a round of zealots on their high ground as I'm pushing up their ramp. Very solid strategy.
I basically only lose to 3rax fast marauder builds and good zerg players who 15hatch and then go roaches + spines just in time to defend.
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hahahahahha this is so wrong.
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On November 24 2010 16:32 PraetorianX wrote: Does it count if I've already done it? My last 100 games have been in this fashion and I've won maye 55-60% of them.
I always, always push at ~6 minutes with 4 stalkers, 4 zealots and 2 sentries. Wins me most games. Especially as I also always warp in a round of zealots on their high ground as I'm pushing up their ramp. Very solid strategy.
I basically only lose to 3rax fast marauder builds and good zerg players who 15hatch and then go roaches + spines just in time to defend.
If you haven't noted your point gains and such theres not much I can use :p thats kind of the point really, but nice, I'll try that strat
Do you one gas or two gas?
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Isn't a hundred games... Kind of a lot? I mean really, that's a lot of games in a row to use the SAME freaking build. I think I might die of boredom ;(
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On November 24 2010 16:28 shinwa wrote: Neat idea, I would totally do it if I had the time to play as much.
It would be cool if challenges like this would continue with other strategies/races.
OK. If it is cool I'll make more challenges like this one, yeah! I need something to call myself,
like Haegen the Challenger
;D
Btw first to upload 100 games with 4 gates gets their name on the list.
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On November 24 2010 16:37 Jyon wrote: Isn't a hundred games... Kind of a lot? I mean really, that's a lot of games in a row to use the SAME freaking build. I think I might die of boredom ;(
It would not be a challenge if it was not 100 games! haha
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On November 24 2010 16:37 Jyon wrote: Isn't a hundred games... Kind of a lot? I mean really, that's a lot of games in a row to use the SAME freaking build. I think I might die of boredom ;(
Or work/gain skill/experience on your other lacking abilities such as multitasking.
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On November 24 2010 16:34 RotterdaM wrote: hahahahahha this is so wrong.
To quote the R. Kelly Aka Kellz Aka Goldenshowermaster3 (His Sc2 nick)
"My mind is telling me noooo, but my body, my bodyy is telling me yeeeeeeess!, Cuz there ain't nothing wrong, with a little 4 gate build.."
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Haha, this is awesome. I've never played Protoss before but the next time I'm getting hammered on the ladder I might just try this.
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Why don't you instead of encouraging people to do boring and done-to-death strategies that deteriorate their skill, inspire them to do like a 1 gate FE / 1 rax FE in every MU? (It's viable in all of them)
Pros- They learn how to play. Less people rage on Bnet. The game develops faster. People actually play interesting games.
Cons- You might geht Carpal Tunnel because your games will be longer than 7 minutes and 30 seconds.
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On November 24 2010 15:41 b_unnies wrote: i'd much prefer to have Protoss do a challenge where they don't go 4 gate for 100 games Or like two gate or one gate expand for 100 games
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i guess the real challenge of this is the endurance of doing sth over and over again~~
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On November 24 2010 16:45 ChickenLips wrote: Why don't you instead of encouraging people to do boring and done-to-death strategies that deteriorate their skill, inspire them to do like a 1 gate FE / 1 rax FE in every MU? (It's viable in all of them)
Pros- They learn how to play. Less people rage on Bnet. The game develops faster. People actually play interesting games.
Cons- You might geht Carpal Tunnel because your games will be longer than 7 minutes and 30 seconds.
Hahahaha greatest post ever.
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On November 24 2010 16:45 ChickenLips wrote: Why don't you instead of encouraging people to do boring and done-to-death strategies that deteriorate their skill, inspire them to do like a 1 gate FE / 1 rax FE in every MU? (It's viable in all of them)
Pros- They learn how to play. Less people rage on Bnet. The game develops faster. People actually play interesting games.
Cons- You might geht Carpal Tunnel because your games will be longer than 7 minutes and 30 seconds.
At your request other challenges will be coming in due time. Your suggestion is appreciated
but! I don't think perfecting a 4 gate detoriates your skill, I think it is a strat that every protoss worth his/her salt should know how to do well.
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Why are people so mad about 4gate? Is it the protoss players' fault that there's like exactly this one truly viable build?
Why isn't there all this rage about stim rushes, or 2hat roach rushes?
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Hahahaha all I do is 4-gate >.>
Good stuff
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On November 24 2010 16:52 beef42 wrote: Why are people so mad about 4gate? Is it the protoss players' fault that there's like exactly this one truly viable build?
Why isn't there all this rage about stim rushes, or 2hat roach rushes?
Hey man you don't have to feel bad if you 4gate most of your games (look at Katari and OpticZero top 25 NA, works for them). Ladder doesn't matter really.
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United Arab Emirates18 Posts
I think I like my robo too much to even consider this challenge. Mainly for immortals though, I have been trying to rely less on colossi - going off topic here.
I will 4 gate but with DTs I guess
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getting people to 4gate 100 games in a row with no reward great idea, way to teach them how not to play lol!
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I think Imma do this, been in a slump trying phoenix and FFEs and dts and zealot/hi temp, so I might as well go back to the old staple.
Though now Imma hafta un down-vote the 2 player maps :X
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Eh okay, here is my secret page 3 challenge. Play 100 games as terran and only construct scv's and marines. Whatever happens you can only make those units! Fun! Gl hf, you may also update every time you play and write a post here. If you want to know how just check my template:
Points before: Points now: Games played:
First 8 to complete challenge: 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8.
Now you know, gl hf guys!
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All this protoss in this tread acting like they wouldn't do this anyway.... tststs...
Mix in some fast Voidrays for extra tears!
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Hmm, a 6 pool, 100 Games anyone? :D
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On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote: 4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games
NexGenius just overwhelmed Nestea with an endless 4gate attack.
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Any of any races can do this remember that guys as well as anyone protoss remember that.
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lol.
I think we should start the 100 6-pool challenge next.
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I think you should've done it the other way around. People that always 4 gate should play 100 games without doing it and see where they'll end up. That seems far more interesting and entertaining to me.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Where is the reward that comes with the challenge?
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4 gating is the severely anachronistic version of the 2rax marine scv rush.
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This sounds like a pretty interesting challenge!
I play random, so i would have to do ~300 games of which i will be doing my P games 4 Gate, does it count? :D
Just have to remember to do 4gates all the time when playing P and get my fun out of the other matchups that i play.
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I think an easier challenge is: Kill 100 zerg 14 hatches consecutively ;p
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On November 24 2010 17:32 Telcontar wrote: Where is the reward that comes with the challenge?
The reward is cheese
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4 gate... why 4 gate?! Why not 20 minute macro game instead D:
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Because protoss aren't adverse to loss.
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am i the only one wondering why you're willing to spend roughly seven hours (top 5 packs, 6 1/2 min per game for 4gate, reviewed at 8x with 100 games) reviewing the same monotonous replay content? O_o
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i say after this we have all zergs 6pool
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Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done.
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On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done.
Please stop this build snobbery.
First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose.
Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"?
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once you hit a certain point, more and more people will know how to react to it. But even so if your micro is good, you can win :D
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I think better one would be.. 3 gate expand..
Anyway.. I think I will do it because.. I havent played much in a month and didnt plan on playing till protoss buff.. so might as well practice 4 gating which I never did since I am a macro protoss player... Not starting right now though.. maybe like in 2 days.. I got loads of points in my bonus pool.. and my rating is way below my skill due to inflation and lack of practice so will be a while before I am even playing equal ppl.. Although probably wont matter since I doubt pure 4 gate will actually get there.. will post that info junk when I decide to start..
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On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"?
Because 4gate stops working as often the higher you go and is so simple you learn nothing.
I can't tell you how many times I've held off a 4gate only to have my opponent just quit the game before I've even countered. It's hilarious and sad. I could provide you with a replay of a 1800 Diamond Protoss 4gating me on Jungle Basin and quitting as soon as I destroyed his push. He even faked a FE to try and put me off, I only saw his 4gate because I sac'd an OL 30 seconds after my drone died.
Basically, 4gate doesn't teach you anything. This guy obviously had no idea how to play past the first push.
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On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"?
I agree, people saying you dont learn a lot from 4 gating is wrong, you definately learn to micro! Its a good build for having quick micro battles.
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On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done.
Said like a true bronze player.
The 4 gate=autowin is a stupid myth made up by sub-par players who think they can be 2k diamond protoss if they spam this 1 magical build but simply refuse to do so because they claim it to be "cheap". It kinda reminds me of how m16 was to cod4 and the attitude the x-box community had for it. "ooh oohh m16 such a noob rifle" and yet only a few could actually get a good k/d with the gun. It's sad to see a part of the SC2 community has fallen to this shitty level.
4 gate doesn't get you far in life, is it a good build? yes. Does it win you every game? Hell no. Any opponent who actually knows how to scout can easily beat a 4 gate and this is the reason why it is so damn rare to see a 4gate nowadays in diamond. Then again, if you want to prove me wrong then kindly go ahead.This thread is specially made for people like you.
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On November 24 2010 18:20 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"? I agree, people saying you dont learn a lot from 4 gating is wrong, you definately learn to micro! Its a good build for having quick micro battles.
If you are winning 75% of games with 4 gate are you better or worse than someone who wins 60% of games with a macro oriented play?
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Basically, 4gate doesn't teach you anything. This guy obviously had no idea how to play past the first push.
... ooor he realized his allin didn't work and had no way to recover and prefered to not waste his time.
You can also 4gate without going allin, in which case quitting the game after it fails is indeed rather lulsy.
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Your better, you win more.
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this thread is embarrassing...
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On November 24 2010 18:25 Spiegel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:20 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"? I agree, people saying you dont learn a lot from 4 gating is wrong, you definately learn to micro! Its a good build for having quick micro battles. If you are winning 75% of games with 4 gate are you better or worse than someone who wins 60% of games with a macro oriented play?
I got 3 words for you brother.
Play To Win
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On November 24 2010 18:40 bLuR wrote: this thread is embarrassing...
Please elaborate. One liners that are not funny really does not contribute to the community -.-
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Whether or not you believe rehearsing this already well established build will improve your game and ability as a player or not - why 100 games?
Surely 20/25 would be more than enough time for a player of any ranking to aclimatise to the particulars (whether or not you argue there is any in a 4 gate) of the build, AND be enough time that the results can act as data regarding the general success of the strategy?
Personally as a Z player, objectively I'm not particularly bothered one way or the other - the more any one race confines themselves to a build, the more practice and familiarity I gain, which just eventually makes it easier for me to improve - but even if my only motivation to post is for the sake of interesting reading; I think this challenge could use a little more thought. As it stands, I think its likely that very few people will bother 4 gating for 100 games unless they were already planning on doing so, and even then I dont see that there is much to be gained at all by anaysing the results of a build that already enjoys widespread implementation and a great deal of success from bronze level execution to diamond.
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On November 24 2010 19:23 Jyon wrote: Whether or not you believe rehearsing this already well established build will improve your game and ability as a player or not - why 100 games?
Surely 20/25 would be more than enough time for a player of any ranking to aclimatise to the particulars (whether or not you argue there is any in a 4 gate) of the build, AND be enough time that the results can act as data regarding the general success of the strategy?
Personally as a Z player, objectively I'm not particularly bothered one way or the other - the more any one race confines themselves to a build, the more practice and familiarity I gain, which just eventually makes it easier for me to improve - but even if my only motivation to post is for the sake of interesting reading; I think this challenge could use a little more thought. As it stands, I think its likely that very few people will bother 4 gating for 100 games unless they were already planning on doing so, and even then I dont see that there is much to be gained at all by anaysing the results of a build that already enjoys widespread implementation and a great deal of success from bronze level execution to diamond.
I will sleep on in then come back with constructive feedback to your eloquent post.
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I can already tell you that as a 1900 diamond player, if I start 4gating every game, my rating will at best, stay even, but most likely go down . 4gate opening has very little versatility.
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On November 24 2010 18:53 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:25 Spiegel wrote:On November 24 2010 18:20 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"? I agree, people saying you dont learn a lot from 4 gating is wrong, you definately learn to micro! Its a good build for having quick micro battles. If you are winning 75% of games with 4 gate are you better or worse than someone who wins 60% of games with a macro oriented play? I got 3 words for you brother. Play To Win
LOL. If you really think 4-gating your way to the higher skill levels is the way to go, then please, keep wasting your time. I can't wait until you get to the point where all your 4-gate all ins are getting held off and you get roflstomped.
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On November 24 2010 19:49 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:53 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:25 Spiegel wrote:On November 24 2010 18:20 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"? I agree, people saying you dont learn a lot from 4 gating is wrong, you definately learn to micro! Its a good build for having quick micro battles. If you are winning 75% of games with 4 gate are you better or worse than someone who wins 60% of games with a macro oriented play? I got 3 words for you brother. Play To Win LOL. If you really think 4-gating your way to the higher skill levels is the way to go, then please, keep wasting your time. I can't wait until you get to the point where all your 4-gate all ins are getting held off and you get roflstomped.
Not wanting to be a smartass, but a 4-Gate is just a valid opener. Its aswell as i 6-pool (i think i even saw a replay of TLO doing a 6-pool versus Toss recently, where he did damage his opponents eco so hard that he was ahead in Drones after the Attack...)
It teaches you to micro, you can macro up / expand! while you attack and reinforce. As long as you execute it in a good way, there is nothing to criticise a 4-Gate toss for. I dont tech and try to cripple / kill my opponent early on. If it works, i am at least ahead in eco and can tech up, if a timing push fails you are (in most cases) behind, at least a little.
So... Why not do it?
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I'm a gold level Terran player on NA, I have a SEA account were I started and is in the silver league which I somewhat play as off-race now and then, should I try to do this challenge and see where I can get from rank 1 silver after 100 4gate games? :D I think it'd be exciting but also probably bad for learning the game. :| Thoughts?
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On November 24 2010 20:08 FetTerBender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 19:49 Joementum wrote:On November 24 2010 18:53 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:25 Spiegel wrote:On November 24 2010 18:20 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"? I agree, people saying you dont learn a lot from 4 gating is wrong, you definately learn to micro! Its a good build for having quick micro battles. If you are winning 75% of games with 4 gate are you better or worse than someone who wins 60% of games with a macro oriented play? I got 3 words for you brother. Play To Win LOL. If you really think 4-gating your way to the higher skill levels is the way to go, then please, keep wasting your time. I can't wait until you get to the point where all your 4-gate all ins are getting held off and you get roflstomped. Not wanting to be a smartass, but a 4-Gate is just a valid opener. Its aswell as i 6-pool (i think i even saw a replay of TLO doing a 6-pool versus Toss recently, where he did damage his opponents eco so hard that he was ahead in Drones after the Attack...) It teaches you to micro, you can macro up / expand! while you attack and reinforce. As long as you execute it in a good way, there is nothing to criticise a 4-Gate toss for. I dont tech and try to cripple / kill my opponent early on. If it works, i am at least ahead in eco and can tech up, if a timing push fails you are (in most cases) behind, at least a little. So... Why not do it?
Opening with just a 4-gate all the time is going to cripple you in the long-run. Most people don't know how to properly defend against a 4-gate and it's just going to get you up higher in the ladder than you should be. If you ever decide to transition out of just doing the 4-gate build all the time, then you're going to get roflstomped. Sure, you can do a 4-gate and then learn how to transition out of it, but chances are your opponent left and gg'd out before you even got a chance to transition out of the 4-gate, so when you start playing against people who defend the 4-gate build you won't know what the hell to do.
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On November 24 2010 18:53 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:25 Spiegel wrote:On November 24 2010 18:20 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"? I agree, people saying you dont learn a lot from 4 gating is wrong, you definately learn to micro! Its a good build for having quick micro battles. If you are winning 75% of games with 4 gate are you better or worse than someone who wins 60% of games with a macro oriented play? I got 3 words for you brother. Play To Win
Nope. Play to get better. You'll lose more games in the short term, win more in the long term.
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On November 24 2010 15:32 MementoMori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:30 Trebis wrote: You forgot to add--all the players that have already been 4 gating for hundreds of games need to STOP and track their rating for another 100. lol I totally support this
seconded.
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lol how is this a challenge? every protoss and his brother up to 1800 diamond do 4 gate almost every game anyway. How about you challenge people to NOT do 4 gate for 100 games and see if they are still in diamond.
4 gating will teach you how to 4 gate and nothing else, it is not demanding macro wise and despite what everyone says it isn't demanding micro wiso either. how it can be more micro intense than a 200/200 army battle i dont understand. Surely a handfull of units (generally of 1-2 types) are less demanding than an army consisting HT stalkers zealots sentrys and collosus?
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I stopped 4 gating frequently once i got promoted to diamond, i only really 4 gate on PvP sometimes(korean variant), because the matchup is just so retarded i cant be arsed to play a macro PvP, i also 4 gate vs zerg sometimes but never that often anymore, usually just go 3 gate blink stalkers which is way more effective.
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On November 24 2010 18:53 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 18:25 Spiegel wrote:On November 24 2010 18:20 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"? I agree, people saying you dont learn a lot from 4 gating is wrong, you definately learn to micro! Its a good build for having quick micro battles. If you are winning 75% of games with 4 gate are you better or worse than someone who wins 60% of games with a macro oriented play? I got 3 words for you brother. Play To Win
Depends how you define winning, if you want to win most of your games now, go ahead and 4 gate. But if you want to win in the long term you will need to become better at the game by using less cheesy strategies.
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I rather u hold a challenge that u will use 4 gate against any1 in this forum,the person who beat you will give u some sort of punishment.
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how about 9001 fourgate games?!
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There is nothing wrong with 4gating, and it not bad for learning the game. Sure if you 4gate your whole sc2 career it might not be so good but if you start by 4-gating alot you will eventually learn how to vary your 4gate to beat different kinds of opponent strategies and you will also learn when 4gate won't work, it's an excellent build to branch off from.
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I will stop this every time as Terran. GL Protoss - submit yourself to me!
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On November 24 2010 20:19 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 20:08 FetTerBender wrote:On November 24 2010 19:49 Joementum wrote:On November 24 2010 18:53 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:25 Spiegel wrote:On November 24 2010 18:20 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 18:11 beef42 wrote:On November 24 2010 18:06 hugedong wrote: Out of all the pointless posts I've read on this site, this one takes the cake as the worst thread I have ever seen. The only thing it will do is get every bronze player to diamond in a few games, and absolutely suck after they try any other strategy.
Maybe if this was a 15 nexus for 100 games it would actually be beneficial to someone's play and not be the most boring thing you have ever done. Please stop this build snobbery. First of all, 15nexusing anywhere other than PvZ is instant lose. Secondly, if 4gate wins games, why is it a bad build? Why are only macro builds "beneficial to someone's play"? I agree, people saying you dont learn a lot from 4 gating is wrong, you definately learn to micro! Its a good build for having quick micro battles. If you are winning 75% of games with 4 gate are you better or worse than someone who wins 60% of games with a macro oriented play? I got 3 words for you brother. Play To Win LOL. If you really think 4-gating your way to the higher skill levels is the way to go, then please, keep wasting your time. I can't wait until you get to the point where all your 4-gate all ins are getting held off and you get roflstomped. Not wanting to be a smartass, but a 4-Gate is just a valid opener. Its aswell as i 6-pool (i think i even saw a replay of TLO doing a 6-pool versus Toss recently, where he did damage his opponents eco so hard that he was ahead in Drones after the Attack...) It teaches you to micro, you can macro up / expand! while you attack and reinforce. As long as you execute it in a good way, there is nothing to criticise a 4-Gate toss for. I dont tech and try to cripple / kill my opponent early on. If it works, i am at least ahead in eco and can tech up, if a timing push fails you are (in most cases) behind, at least a little. So... Why not do it? Opening with just a 4-gate all the time is going to cripple you in the long-run. Most people don't know how to properly defend against a 4-gate and it's just going to get you up higher in the ladder than you should be. If you ever decide to transition out of just doing the 4-gate build all the time, then you're going to get roflstomped. Sure, you can do a 4-gate and then learn how to transition out of it, but chances are your opponent left and gg'd out before you even got a chance to transition out of the 4-gate, so when you start playing against people who defend the 4-gate build you won't know what the hell to do.
The thing is to use the 4 gate, and be able to have a transition out of it if it does not kill your opponent! Thats at least what i ment by using it as an "opener". Given the fact that not so many people know how to defend against it properly, it even makes it a very strong opener.
But the trick of it comes afterwards, really. You have to look at the situation you are in after you 4 - Gate (not all-in ish) has been repelled. How much have i been able to kill? What are my next steps? Will i do a HT / DT transition? Grab a 3rd? Thats where the real game begins, for the opener has been finished.
And if your opener doesnt even get repelled but you manage to pull off a victory with just barely playing off your whole potential, even better.
Most players tend to practise something over and over again, without realising: I might reach a point in some game which i have never reached during my practises before, they lose their head and, in most cases, the game. A very good executed 4-Gate should leave you with a lead into the late Mid / Endgame, because you should be able to do serious damage to your opponent.
So its not that 4-Gate is bad, but most people lose the game when they dont know how to continue afterwards.
Just my 2 Cents =)
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We zergs should do a 7RR challenge.
On November 24 2010 15:25 haegN wrote: Then upload your 100 replay packs Just a heads up. You can have more than one replay in a replay pack.
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Another reason to hatch before pool... it is the best counter to 4 gating by the way :/
And naw, it isn't worth 7rr since it's viable only on 1-2 maps Dx
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why do people say terran pieces and protoss pieces
this isn't chess
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On November 24 2010 22:26 Coraz wrote: why do people say terran pieces and protoss pieces
this isn't chess tell that to day9
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surprisingly enough.. in response to the 6 pool challenge i did about 10 games.. and man I had no idea so many ppl 10gated etc. and i barely won 50% of my games 7 pooling blindly.
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On November 24 2010 16:36 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 16:32 PraetorianX wrote: Does it count if I've already done it? My last 100 games have been in this fashion and I've won maye 55-60% of them.
I always, always push at ~6 minutes with 4 stalkers, 4 zealots and 2 sentries. Wins me most games. Especially as I also always warp in a round of zealots on their high ground as I'm pushing up their ramp. Very solid strategy.
I basically only lose to 3rax fast marauder builds and good zerg players who 15hatch and then go roaches + spines just in time to defend. If you haven't noted your point gains and such theres not much I can use :p thats kind of the point really, but nice, I'll try that strat Do you one gas or two gas?
One gas, always one gas. Those extra last minute in-their-base zealot warp ins are gonna tip the scales, last minute sentries are worthless. Zealots are great units, tanky and effective vs marines and zerglings, both of which you will be facing a lot when 4gating.
Just my 0,02€.
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might as well have the 7 roach rush challenge and the 3 rax push challenge
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I propose a better challenge. Do 100 ladder games and DON'T 4 warpgate rush. A much more difficult challenge.
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Ok, for everyone taking this up, you have to play the music
"Shine on you crazy diamond" in EVERY game you play.
(after the challenge you have to play the album "love over gold" by dire straits)
Only issue i have with this build is that 2thor counters it SO hard, and pretty much every PvT i play is vs 2Thor
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On November 24 2010 22:26 Coraz wrote: why do people say terran pieces and protoss pieces
this isn't chess I want to down-vote this post so bad.
ON-TOPIC: I might give this a shot despite being a Zerg player.
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Man, just checked your replay, you destroyed the Z without using any hotkeys for your army? and you and he apparently are diamond level players? :O
I thought people hotkeyed as soon as they got out of bronze? - Damn i watched a day9 about hotkeys before the game finished download :O
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oh all the poor guys on ladder don't do this, op. 4gate is terrible. i never did it and i never will.
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Someone tell this elfi...
Ohwait, apparently he's been doing this since day1 andhasn't learnt another BO yet.
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On November 25 2010 00:00 Scrimpton wrote: Man, just checked your replay, you destroyed the Z without using any hotkeys for your army? and you and he apparently are diamond level players? :O
I thought people hotkeyed as soon as they got out of bronze? - Damn i watched a day9 about hotkeys before the game finished download :O
Most do but some don't. I've played 2000+ players that didn't have their army hotkeyed. I guess it fights the urge to 1a.
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On November 25 2010 00:05 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 00:00 Scrimpton wrote: Man, just checked your replay, you destroyed the Z without using any hotkeys for your army? and you and he apparently are diamond level players? :O
I thought people hotkeyed as soon as they got out of bronze? - Damn i watched a day9 about hotkeys before the game finished download :O Most do but some don't. I've played 2000+ players that didn't have their army hotkeyed. I guess it fights the urge to 1a.
hmm, i could see that, but not being able to 11 to jump straight to my army, or 33 for air etc, would seem clumsy.
but to each their own i guess
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I'd do it just so we can get warpgate pushed back or tweaked and have our tier 1 units buffed so that those of us that don't like 4 gate pushing/all-ining can feel like we're not gimping ourselves by skipping one of our strongest timing attacks
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if there's money on the line I'd definetly use the stronger build. otherwise it's boring and repetitive and I don't fucking like it.
This little experiment is just masturbatory since we all know it'll improve many people's ladder score because it IS effective, but it doesn't mean much.
You can score on an open net, doesn't mean you're a talented player.
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Any advice on what to do when you stumble across that terran that double bunkers or even just 1 bunker + SCV's? i presume once scouted, its better to just expand at nat and tech up to collosus?
or is there someway of doing damage to a T who's walled off + bunker?
thx in advance.
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if only I could hit the same guys 100 time and he go 4wargate every single time. lol
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On November 24 2010 16:03 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:57 ci_esteban wrote: And this is why laddering is so boring and tedious...if you're trying to prove that people can get to unreasonably high rating 4 gating that has already been proven.
Luckily, anyone whose good at any of the 3 races can block it if they know it's coming. Granted some people are better at doing it than others. How in the world is this why laddering is "so boring and tedious", please elaborate.. Because all you see in ladder are 4 gates? This is plain out wrong. And if it is not that which you are referring too what is it exactly? I do not quite get where you are coming from.
Because you play against bad players that do 1 strategy.
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On November 25 2010 00:36 ci_esteban wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 16:03 haegN wrote:On November 24 2010 15:57 ci_esteban wrote: And this is why laddering is so boring and tedious...if you're trying to prove that people can get to unreasonably high rating 4 gating that has already been proven.
Luckily, anyone whose good at any of the 3 races can block it if they know it's coming. Granted some people are better at doing it than others. How in the world is this why laddering is "so boring and tedious", please elaborate.. Because all you see in ladder are 4 gates? This is plain out wrong. And if it is not that which you are referring too what is it exactly? I do not quite get where you are coming from. Because you play against bad players that do 1 strategy.
Rating players on "good" or "bad" because of the strategy they use is not correct i think.
If, lets say, HuK would participate in this and would execute 100* a perfect 4 Gate with a Transition into... afterwards, i wouldnt brand him as a bad player. So its pretty interesting to conclude: "Pfwah, that guy HAS to be newb, he uses 4 Gate!"
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Russian Federation20 Posts
Sounds interesting, I'll try it. Don't have a clear idea if it will lower my stats or not.
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I'm 6 games into the challenge, and I'm being placed against 1800 point diamond players.
I am nowhere near that good of a player. maybe 4 gate is too good for newbs
hopefully ill get promoted soon enough tho.
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Regardless of whether you think that 4 gating is all-in, cheesy, hard to beat, easy to beat... The point is that practice makes perfect. I think this is a great idea! I also think that if you want to get better this is something that you need to learn to do. I am not referring to the 4-gate in particular I am talking about practice the same build over and over and over again until you have it perfected. I think it is good practice to play on the ladder and do the same build every single game, because even if you lose, the knowledge gained from it will help you discover either flaws in your execution or builds that counter your build.
So yeah go play 100 games 4-gating or 2 gate roboing,... or whatever build you are working on. Save every replay as a win or loss and mark specific ones you want to go back and watch. THEN go back and watch the games and see what you did wrong and what you did right.
Also 4 gating is a completely legitimate build with MANY variations. Some of which are not all-in. Great idea OP!
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Why do people complain about 4gate so much? It seems like its easy to hold and it's an all-in strategy. I only have it work in PvP, but I almost solely rely on FE in Terran and Zerg, because frankly, Zerg Roaches own FE pretty awesomely and Terran's ball seems to own 4 gate a lot, usually as it nears the right combination.
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Just think of all the free points at higher levels after this challenge is over!
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As a terran I find 4 warpgate REALLY EASY to hold off. As long as I can scout/scan it i'll have a ton of bunkers up (salvage ftw) and an expo long enough i'll win 99.9% of the time.
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On November 25 2010 01:09 Najda wrote: Just think of all the free points at higher levels after this challenge is over!
or imagine the 4 warpgate master race, after having played and perfected the same opening, learning transitions that make your eyes water on the way.. a focused precision cut into the heart of the meta game. Slashing away at the artery of brutality that is Zerg.
nvm.
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This isn't much of a challenge. More appropriate title should be "Play Protoss for 100 games."
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The reason Starcraft 2 is so dynamic and EXCITING is because builds like 4 gate, and 6 pool, and 3rax exist. How cool was it to see NesTea go for fast hatch Game 1 and scv/marine rushed? And then the EXACT same build in game 7 goes the other way.
Where does this "ALL YOUR GAMES MUST LAST 30 MINUTES" attitude come from?
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4gate build is not that good actually, many good t's and z's knows how to deal with it ;p
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I think I'm actually gonna try this. I'm a Zerg player, but I used to play random so I know some Protoss as well, but it's still my weakest race. Let's see if I can actually improve my ranking while offracing.
Name/ID: drunkenJedi.346 Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1989 (11 Bonus pool) Points 20 Games into challenge: ? Final score: ? Replay pack: Coming SOON ( and not in the blizzard sense)
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On November 25 2010 01:38 Moody wrote: The reason Starcraft 2 is so dynamic and EXCITING is because builds like 4 gate, and 6 pool, and 3rax exist. How cool was it to see NesTea go for fast hatch Game 1 and scv/marine rushed? And then the EXACT same build in game 7 goes the other way.
Where does this "ALL YOUR GAMES MUST LAST 30 MINUTES" attitude come from?
Macroing up and massing really big armies to fight epic 400 supply battles or huge siege my base games are considered more skillfull than using 6 critical little lings worth 3 supply and smacking the enemies eco out.
I dont know why, but it seems to be like this.
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Haha I like this idea. I'll go for it. Do we have to use one specific variation the entire time?
Name/ID: Silex.680 Division: Platinum Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1520 (bonus pool: 80) Date started: 11/24/10 Points 20 Games into challenge: ? Date ended: ? Final score: ? Replay pack: Coming soon.
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Can someone show a build order?
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I 4gated my way to diamond, then people figured out how to beat it, so now I do 2 gate robo and have been having much more success. Unless I scout a hatch before pool on an awkward to defense natural before I grab my robo, then I go 4 gate and punish!
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4 gate is bad.. but not as bad as yall make it out to be lol.. I doubt many of you have high enough multitasking to be constantly poking/pressuring/harassing/containing with the extra units you have early on from 4 gating while macroing up in your base. Using 100 games to practice it will help your multitasking a lot and allow you even more to learn what units a person will have at that time so you can maybe skip a unit or 2 in normal build to have a better economy.
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i wanna see someone proxy 4-gateway. that would be funny. to me anyways.
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I will be doing this this weekend.
Can't wait actually.
Also have to get Sc2rar working for it, not manually saving 100 4-gate replays
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I'll be giving this a try. I'm currently a lower-ranked platinum Protoss player that has been avoiding going 4-gate at all, and rather trying to win with good forcefields and composition.
I currently have around a 1300 bonus pool in 1v1, and will be laddering the crap out of this 4-gate. I hope it will improve my micro, and macro mechanics, as well as making me feel more comfortable, because I already know what I'm going to be doing for the next 100 matches.
Yeaahhh. Time to warpgate.
Oh, and is it cheating if say, you scout early cloaked banshees and get a robo, or forge?
Currently: 405 Points. Bonus Pool: 1262
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As a reasonably new player choosing protoss the 4 gate was the first strategy I learnt, and I have stuck with it in 99% of my games - as it has had considerably more success than anything else i've tried.
After 3 weeks or so of active play i've reached 1600 plat, almost 100%of games using the 4-gate build. It's working, but the game is usually won or lost based on my first aggressive push around 8 minutes.As a result of this dependence on my push, my micro has improved greatly but my macro is lacking - as i tend to lose games that go on for a longer time period (partly because I'm so weakened if the push fails)
Am I playing the game the wrong way, relying on just one build? When I win 5 in a row doing almost exactly the same thing every time, I almost feel as if I'm cheating. My win ratio is dropping off compared to what it was at lower leagues, will I soon hit a brick wall where everybody knows how to stop a 4 gate?
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how bout not fucking 4 gate? hasnt EVERYONE had enough of this lame strat? it's been here ever since the beta, and only the players who don't know how to improve have stuck by it every single one of their games.
maybe make a challenge that actually requires skill or help lead into something more, instead of further exhausting an already exhausted strat.
edit:
On November 25 2010 03:37 SamGC wrote: As a reasonably new player choosing protoss the 4 gate was the first strategy I learnt, and I have stuck with it in 99% of my games - as it has had considerably more success than anything else i've tried.
After 3 weeks or so of active play i've reached 1600 plat, almost 100%of games using the 4-gate build. It's working, but the game is usually won or lost based on my first aggressive push around 8 minutes.As a result of this dependence on my push, my micro has improved greatly but my macro is lacking - as i tend to lose games that go on for a longer time period (partly because I'm so weakened if the push fails)
Am I playing the game the wrong way, relying on just one build? When I win 5 in a row doing almost exactly the same thing every time, I almost feel as if I'm cheating. My win ratio is dropping off compared to what it was at lower leagues, will I soon hit a brick wall where everybody knows how to stop a 4 gate?
people already know how to stop a 4 gate. which is why at any higher level of play, 4 gate is almost always stopped... the reason why you feel like you're cheating is probably some part of you realize how easy it is to pull this off even though you blindly go 4 gate every game.
proof? read the spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +On November 25 2010 00:51 Spiegel wrote:I'm 6 games into the challenge, and I'm being placed against 1800 point diamond players. I am nowhere near that good of a player. maybe 4 gate is too good for newbs hopefully ill get promoted soon enough tho.
what differentiates between better players from worse ones is their ability to adapt and learn... if you 4 gate every game, what're you ever going to gain other than a few empty victories?
your macro is lacking because a 4 gate is supposed to end the game early. the shorter the games, the less demanding it is on your mid-late game mechanics, simply because there is barely any mid game, and no late game to speak of. therefore, you have less experience/practice with macro, and later game stages.
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I dunno I haven't got enough practice against it I'll still prolly get raped by it (zvp) especially if they go 1 gas and I don't scout it in some tourney, people stopped doing it which is kinda sad. Please keep doing this :D
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Something interesting happened to me today, I scouted 4 warpgates with my overlord, and put down three spine crawlers. I managed to pick the pylon + probe 2 times and waited for a delayed 4gate push as i planted 3 spine crawlers. I saw like 10 zealots and 1 stalker..i knew something was off but didnt know exactly what. Suddenly, 5 dark templars and 15 zealots were eating away my base O_o Still managed to win by trapping the dark templars in my main with 2 evo chambers with a spore crawler and roaches tough, but it was hard..
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I'm a diamond protoss that started copper in the beta and this is my first rts. Here is how i progressed.
1. When i was copper i made a lot of buildings and tried to make the high tech units as fast as i could. My army composition off of one base (usually with about 12 probes) consisted of carriers, void rays, zealots and the occasional mothership. 2. Someone posted a thread about day9 dailies. Watched about 10 of those during the beta and then started actually practicing. I learned about the 4 gate. Someone said, make some probes and 4 warpgates and go kill your opponent. So I did. 3. When the game came out I had been practicing with the multitasking trainer a little and against a friend so I 4 gated my way to gold during initial placement. 4. I kept doing 4 gate because I kept winning and by learning micro I was actually doing well. 4 gate got my into platinum. 5. 4 gate doesn't work so well in platinum so i started losing a bunch of games to things like FE and roach rushes. Time to learn another build. This is when I saw an old game of someone using blink stalkers. So i made 3 gates, got blink and killed my opponents. I won 20 games in a row with blink stalkers using really intense micro (microing individual stalkers back to keep em alive). Blink stalkers was less effective though once everyone saw tyler use it against idra and my blink stalkers were getting countered pretty hard, now i'm back to 2 gate robo with a focus on immortals. Instead of making stalkers, i make zealots sentires and immortals which tends to work a lot better against t1 unit compositions as long as you have forcefields. This build got me to diamond. Of course, i'm not just diamond because of a build. I scout a lot better, my macro rarely slips, my micro is a lot better. 4 gate is a good starting build though because eventually you will hit a point where it doesn't work and then you have to start fine tuning stuff. I still 4 gate on occasion, especially against zerg hatch before pool builds, but i've been playing with a lot more FE builds.
Don't rely on 4 gate to be an end all build. It's a good way to learn early pressure though. The equivilent might be a 3 rax rush or a roach all in. Again don't rely on them too much.
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@darmousseh: ty for the advice, I'm pretty much at stage 5 in what you described now, at 1600 platinum getting stuck, I only really know the 4 gate and a few cheese builds which I hardly use - been playing 3 weeks or so and I guess it's time to expand my knowledge of builds.
When you switched up to 2 gate robo, did you find alot of your games were lasting much longer..or were you still winning with aggressive early pushes? My play style suits being the aggressor where possible so i'd be looking for builds which complement that style of play.
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I've played Toss for quite a while and I try everything. Any build I hear about I go try out, just to see how it feels. Cheese, FE's, timings, whatever. I played around with 4 gates, 3gate robo,2gate rush,2gate robo, and I almost never write down a build order. I just try to learn the flow and by doing a strategy 10 times, I smooth it out by finding the max amount of workers I can produce and still hit a timing attack window. With 4 gate, I tend to get a very strong economy and I don't really worry too much how much damage I do unless they FE'd. Here are just a few things I've learned about 4 gating.
A forward pylon is CRUCIAL, many times 4gate pressure turns into gg with reinforcements or allows you to maintain a big enough army to retreat without getting slaughtered. If they fast expanded you MUST do serious damage and probably wont win unless it goes down.
The best 4 gate attack timings are after your 2nd wave of warp ins IMO. To hit this point with maximum economy you will need some Force fields to stop any earlier rushes.
If they didnt fast expand or you just killed it and they pull back to their main, you DO NOT have to push any further (up the ramp). Just contain and expand. Get 3 sentries and every time they poke down the ramp FF them and screw up any break out timing they had. It is a good idea to make them fight their way down the ramp with an army you cut in half.
If you've done all of these things above there is really only one transition that makes sense except in rare circumstances. Expo and get an obs asap. Just pump units and get that 2 base econ going vs 1 base. Make a few immortals after the obs if your worried. Then you just have to defend for a little bit while the tech you choose gets going. The fun thing for me about 4 gate is the situation I'm describing is pretty typical so at this point I get to transition however I want. I can go colossus, air(carriers and motherships are fun!). Or I can just go for a bad ass gateway army, 2 forge double upgrades, get twilight upgrades charge,blink, add a bunch of gates,take a 3rd. Just go straight for 200 supply.
If your 4 gate fails hard and your like WTFOMGSIEGE just contain and expand and don't suicide your army. This is why I highly prefer 3gate robo over 4 gate. The obs is so helpful in making all these decisions in the game. (Like when to expand and how hard you can get away with pressuring)
I'm not trying to start any discussion, this is just how I play 4 gate. It's fun for me because of the fact that I often get to transition however I want. The attack does so much damage early. Thought I'd share this with any players who are unfamiliar with toss and are going to try this challenge. It seems like many people think 4 gate is a pure all in. Maybe it is for most people but not for me. For me it's just a way for an early gateway army not to get rofl stomped by MM or roach ling aggression. Allowing me to dictate the pace of the game a little.
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On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote: 4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games
what the hell are you talking about? nullified? there is still PLENTY of 4 gate protoss by the top players and it's even scarier, since most of them can hide their play pretty well until they hit you
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On November 25 2010 00:00 Scrimpton wrote: Man, just checked your replay, you destroyed the Z without using any hotkeys for your army? and you and he apparently are diamond level players? :O
I thought people hotkeyed as soon as they got out of bronze? - Damn i watched a day9 about hotkeys before the game finished download :O
I use hotkeys lol, usually about 4-5.. If you want O can upload more replays.
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personally, i find 4 gate a bit more interesting to watch than all those TvZ where T does 2 barracks, and sends all his scvs along with it. people whine how 4 gate is gay, yet i dont recall any toss build that demands "sending probes" along with your army..
just my own opinion
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Terran here. I fear no 4 gate.
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On November 25 2010 04:11 MICHELLE wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote: 4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games what the hell are you talking about? nullified? there is still PLENTY of 4 gate protoss by the top players and it's even scarier, since most of them can hide their play pretty well until they hit you
Yeah this is true.. If they hunt down your overlord before you see the 3 remaining gates, are you still going to plant down those 3 crawlers? I dont think so..
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yummy 4 gaters. Love them. Fast, easy win for Z
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why would i make a hundred and four gates? cella showed you can be rather effective with only 13 gates
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I'm going to be sure to do a marine marauder timing push against every protoss for the next couple days.
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I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses.
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On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses.
QFT, A lot of wise words here!
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Sorry, I don't know forum lingo, what is QFT?
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On November 25 2010 05:02 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses. QFT, A lot of wise words here!
in terms of difficulty in execution for strats, 4 gating, has always been considered to be very minimal. which is why people get extremely pissed for losing to a 4 gating toss because you didn't get out played, you got beat by someone who abused the fact that 4gating is extremely powerful vs the difficulty one needs to execute it successfully.
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On November 25 2010 05:05 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: Sorry, I don't know forum lingo, what is QFT? Quoted for truth.
It means he agrees.
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On November 25 2010 05:27 imyzhang wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 05:02 haegN wrote:On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses. QFT, A lot of wise words here! in terms of difficulty in execution for strats, 4 gating, has always been considered to be very minimal. which is why people get extremely pissed for losing to a 4 gating toss because you didn't get out played, you got beat by someone who abused the fact that 4gating is extremely powerful vs the difficulty one needs to execute it successfully.
Ah, yes. So in other words, zerg players should be crying after every game vs protoss or terran, correct?
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I used 4 gate pretty frequently but have slowed down a bit lately. I might just have to give this a go! I still generally get owned by terran players though.
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On November 25 2010 05:44 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 05:27 imyzhang wrote:On November 25 2010 05:02 haegN wrote:On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses. QFT, A lot of wise words here! in terms of difficulty in execution for strats, 4 gating, has always been considered to be very minimal. which is why people get extremely pissed for losing to a 4 gating toss because you didn't get out played, you got beat by someone who abused the fact that 4gating is extremely powerful vs the difficulty one needs to execute it successfully. Ah, yes. So in other words, zerg players should be crying after every game vs protoss or terran, correct?
No? Who says zerg is harder to play? That's completely subjective. Try microing marines against blings. Or having good forcefields.
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nonstop 4 gating is so boring and counter productive to actually growing as a protoss player. i think i'd 4 gated like 5 times total and it was only in PvP when i scouted the other guy 4 gating.
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I'm probably going to join in and try it myself. Looks fun.
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I resent this thread. Earlier today I played the same toss 4 times If I remember correctly. Every single time I got 4 gated. 5th game was against another toss player who proceeded to Cannon rush me.
Good times.
For the record, what is the counter to 4 gate if you scout it? Is the only way to throw up 4 gates yourself? I've tried 1 gate Robo etc etc, doesn't work. It might if you wall off your front, but i've stopped doing that now against P.
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On November 25 2010 04:16 DingeR wrote: why would i make a hundred and four gates? cella showed you can be rather effective with only 13 gates It is 100 4 gates, meaning 400 gates (you build 4 gates 100 times, or 400 gates 4 at a time). 104 is not nearly enough. Cella is a dirty cheeser building so few gates.
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On November 25 2010 06:00 Endorsed wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 05:44 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:On November 25 2010 05:27 imyzhang wrote:On November 25 2010 05:02 haegN wrote:On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses. QFT, A lot of wise words here! in terms of difficulty in execution for strats, 4 gating, has always been considered to be very minimal. which is why people get extremely pissed for losing to a 4 gating toss because you didn't get out played, you got beat by someone who abused the fact that 4gating is extremely powerful vs the difficulty one needs to execute it successfully. Ah, yes. So in other words, zerg players should be crying after every game vs protoss or terran, correct? No? Who says zerg is harder to play? That's completely subjective. Try microing marines against blings. Or having good forcefields.
Yes, maybe it is harder to try and micro marines against banelings, but that is completley subjective as well. Same thing goes for the forcefields, define a good forcefield. What if all you needed to do was block your ramp for 20 seconds and you had 5 sentries? Would it be really hard to get a couple "good forcefields" off? I am saying, zerg requires strategy and tactics much more than terran and protoss do. They need open field advantage, need to be able to get their flank on. It may not be "harder" to play zerg, but it is certainly more challenging to play zerg the way they are supposed to be played.
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On November 25 2010 05:27 imyzhang wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 05:02 haegN wrote:On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses. QFT, A lot of wise words here! in terms of difficulty in execution for strats, 4 gating, has always been considered to be very minimal. which is why people get extremely pissed for losing to a 4 gating toss because you didn't get out played, you got beat by someone who abused the fact that 4gating is extremely powerful vs the difficulty one needs to execute it successfully. 4 gate is easy to execute but it isn't hard to stop if you scout it (as Terran at least ). Well I guess usually when I run into it I am on Delta Quadrant so that probably helps me. Hint: don't do this on Delta Quadrant because your opponent will just take the rear expo so your contain is much less powerful.
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well... i may try to do this challenge now that school si over for me... and for those saying that this would just make you bad...
Remember that if your gonna 4 gate 100 games your pretty much gonna focus only on micro... so thats some nice micro practice there for those who are lacking a bit on it.
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United States17042 Posts
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On November 25 2010 05:44 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 05:27 imyzhang wrote:On November 25 2010 05:02 haegN wrote:On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses. QFT, A lot of wise words here! in terms of difficulty in execution for strats, 4 gating, has always been considered to be very minimal. which is why people get extremely pissed for losing to a 4 gating toss because you didn't get out played, you got beat by someone who abused the fact that 4gating is extremely powerful vs the difficulty one needs to execute it successfully. Ah, yes. So in other words, zerg players should be crying after every game vs protoss or terran, correct? I've never understood people that log on to TL to pick fights with people. Is 4 gate an easy build order? Yes. Does that make the protoss that 4 gates bad? No. The build is easy, but that just gives you more room to control units ect.
I personally find 3 hatch muta a pretty easy build order. That doesn't make me a bad player for using it.
Still, why is this something to fight about?
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On November 25 2010 06:12 Panzamelano wrote: well... i may try to do this challenge now that school si over for me... and for those saying that this would just make you bad...
Remember that if your gonna 4 gate 100 games your pretty much gonna focus only on micro... so thats some nice micro practice there for those who are lacking a bit on it.
And it also doesn't mean you instantly FORGET how to play any other builds. If anything, practicing each of your openers 100 times each, and then repeating that process with new openers you find, or create, would help you gain your confidence and knowledge of the early - mid game flow of things. Unless, of course, you are stupid and forget to build probes constantly every game, then you might as well just go back to the basics and not worry about build orders.
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On November 25 2010 06:13 Beef Noodles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 05:44 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:On November 25 2010 05:27 imyzhang wrote:On November 25 2010 05:02 haegN wrote:On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses. QFT, A lot of wise words here! in terms of difficulty in execution for strats, 4 gating, has always been considered to be very minimal. which is why people get extremely pissed for losing to a 4 gating toss because you didn't get out played, you got beat by someone who abused the fact that 4gating is extremely powerful vs the difficulty one needs to execute it successfully. Ah, yes. So in other words, zerg players should be crying after every game vs protoss or terran, correct? I've never understood people that log on to TL to pick fights with people. Is 4 gate an easy build order? Yes. Does that make the protoss that 4 gates bad? No. The build is easy, but that just gives you more room to control units ect. I personally find 3 hatch muta a pretty easy build order. That doesn't make me a bad player for using it. Still, why is this something to fight about?
I never understood why people still cry about 4 gating? I mean, I rarely do it, but when it happens to me and I lose, I don't cry about it. Obviously I did something wrong that I lost to it. It's not like it's extremely IMBA and should be nerf'd ASAP. You know what I mean. Sure, it may be an easier strategy to go with, but so is going DT's, or cloaked banshees. You can cry about literally ANY strategy out there, but people just like to cry about the ones that see effective. They don't look past it and see that maybe, just MAYBE this is how the game is progressing? After all, it hasnt even been out a year yet and there is MANY MANY MANY more years for it to develop, and who knows, maybe one day 4 gate opener will be one of the weakest builds out there, after terran and zerg players get more creative when they see a 4 gate coming.
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I'll never understand the 4-gate hate. Oh noes, it's a somewhat decent timing attack! What is the point of whining about it?
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On November 25 2010 03:56 darmousseh wrote: i made 3 gates, got blink and killed my opponents. I won 20 games in a row with blink stalkers using really intense micro (microing individual stalkers back to keep em alive).
PS if you think microing blink stalkers are hard then you are retarded.
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On November 25 2010 06:13 Beef Noodles wrote:
I've never understood people that log on to TL to pick fights with people. Is 4 gate an easy build order? Yes. Does that make the protoss that 4 gates bad? No. The build is easy, but that just gives you more room to control units ect.
I personally find 3 hatch muta a pretty easy build order. That doesn't make me a bad player for using it.
Still, why is this something to fight about?
I think, for some reason, 4gate induces the same nerdrage commonly attributed to 6pools and proxy rax bunker rushes.
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This thread would be better served teaching our Protoss friends to expand more. Attempt an FE in every game for 100 games, this will make you a better player. Besides, 4 gate is easy to stop by every race but Protoss.
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I'm beginning to think im the only protoss player who didn't know what four gate was till I was 1800 diamond. I used 2 gate robo for the longest time and then 3 gate robo, rush templar, stargate opener, so on and so forth. Just learned how to properly do 4 gate, so I may try the new korean 4 gate (not the proxy rush one, the 5 zealots 8 stalkers one) If i like it, ill do 100 games with that.
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On November 25 2010 06:41 creamwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 03:56 darmousseh wrote: i made 3 gates, got blink and killed my opponents. I won 20 games in a row with blink stalkers using really intense micro (microing individual stalkers back to keep em alive).
PS if you think microing blink stalkers are hard then you are retarded.
You wont be around long with that attitude on TL =)
BTT: Blink Stalkers are a very strong opener used in the correct timing frame, for the Stalkers outrange roaches and the blink makes marauders concussive shells a lot less effective, if not nullifies it. Blink stalkers in masses and microed godly are like Foxers Marines: Pretty hard to deal with =)
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On November 25 2010 06:08 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 06:00 Endorsed wrote:On November 25 2010 05:44 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:On November 25 2010 05:27 imyzhang wrote:On November 25 2010 05:02 haegN wrote:On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses. QFT, A lot of wise words here! in terms of difficulty in execution for strats, 4 gating, has always been considered to be very minimal. which is why people get extremely pissed for losing to a 4 gating toss because you didn't get out played, you got beat by someone who abused the fact that 4gating is extremely powerful vs the difficulty one needs to execute it successfully. Ah, yes. So in other words, zerg players should be crying after every game vs protoss or terran, correct? No? Who says zerg is harder to play? That's completely subjective. Try microing marines against blings. Or having good forcefields. Yes, maybe it is harder to try and micro marines against banelings, but that is completley subjective as well. Same thing goes for the forcefields, define a good forcefield. What if all you needed to do was block your ramp for 20 seconds and you had 5 sentries? Would it be really hard to get a couple "good forcefields" off? I am saying, zerg requires strategy and tactics much more than terran and protoss do. They need open field advantage, need to be able to get their flank on. It may not be "harder" to play zerg, but it is certainly more challenging to play zerg the way they are supposed to be played.
I am inclined to disagree with you there. No offense, but your opinion sounds like that of someone who has never played P/T at a high level. Terrans have to put pressure on zergs when they play against them and Protoss players have to anticipate their every move to get the advantage.
Read plexa's guide for the current PvZ environment and tell me that it's "more challenging" to play zerg.
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On November 24 2010 15:28 haegN wrote: You should try to do the challenge, maybe you will learn a thing or two about holding it off =) all you will learn is that if you take your opponent by surprise you won. even if you don't take them by surprise you can still sometimes win. oh shit, did i mention that it doesn't improve your ability to macro at all and it is a cheesy allin that will never teach you how to actualyl become good at this game? anyways cool challenge. IMO you should make one for zerg's & terrans IE: zerg can only 7RR or something along those lines. Dunno about T.
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On November 24 2010 16:37 Jyon wrote: Isn't a hundred games... Kind of a lot? I mean really, that's a lot of games in a row to use the SAME freaking build. I think I might die of boredom ;( you might also become a REALLY REALLY good player due to it. I think this is a really good idea but I dont know if I have the discipline or patience to 4 gate 100 times... or any build 100 times in a row
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Uh, Parasite. If you're complaining about the simplicity and power of the 4 gate, why would you advocate having people do the 7rr or some silly T rush to "get better?"
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On November 25 2010 07:17 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 06:08 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:On November 25 2010 06:00 Endorsed wrote:On November 25 2010 05:44 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:On November 25 2010 05:27 imyzhang wrote:On November 25 2010 05:02 haegN wrote:On November 25 2010 04:52 mvpAKAenvyME wrote: I love how people are split down the middle on this 4 gate build. Some people love it and swear by it, others HATE it, and consider it the cheesiest build out there, and talk trash about players after they lose to it.
Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win.
Now, this 4 gate build is actually quite good, either way you look at it, its a very strong opening, one of the strongest you can do with protoss. The reason is: Most people make the 4 gate "push" but why not just do a 4 gate "feint"? You do your usual "cheesey" 4 gate build, but instead of pushing up your opponents ramp, or into there defended (hopefully, if they scouted you at all and have any game sense whatsoever) natural...you just contain them and take map control while you make an expansion, and continue to macro your "4 gate death squad" into an unstoppable ball. I'd say you throw down your nexus at your nat as soon as you push out, and then continue to produce gateway units and probes for the rest of the time until your nexus is done. As soon as your nexus finishes, you throw down a forge, and a twilight council and get some upgrades going. You can choose charge or blink its really up to you what you want to get. Also get a robotics bay for immortals and collossi and detection if you need it, you can easily defend your natural this way with cannons as you have your forge, and you'll also have been macroing up a pretty beastly army while your opponent is scared of you and is throwing up bunkers/spine crawlers/cannons at his nat/ramp.
The way I see it, 4 gate is a build that you can do to put yourself ahead, without even attacking. Even though you may sacrifice economy early in the game, you gain the lead after you contain/take map control. From that point on you are pretty much ahead if not even with your opponent and you haven't even had to make any defense because you are the one putting on the pressure. 4 gate build is not a cheesey build, it takes advantage of the protoss strengths: being able to macro out units pretty quickly because of warp gates and chrono boost, and having a decently strong army without tons of units. It seems extremeley powerful in my eyes and looks like a great opening for protoss players of all levels. As well as being able to catch your opponent off gaurd if he doesnt see that much pressure coming early on. You just have to be careful not to over extend yourself as we see ALL too often these days. Thankyou.
P.S. I'm not trying to encourage this 4 gate play everyday, as there are also plenty more opening that you can do that are just as good as this one. You don't want to put yourself into a situation where you lack the skills/know how to adapt with the game as it progresses. QFT, A lot of wise words here! in terms of difficulty in execution for strats, 4 gating, has always been considered to be very minimal. which is why people get extremely pissed for losing to a 4 gating toss because you didn't get out played, you got beat by someone who abused the fact that 4gating is extremely powerful vs the difficulty one needs to execute it successfully. Ah, yes. So in other words, zerg players should be crying after every game vs protoss or terran, correct? No? Who says zerg is harder to play? That's completely subjective. Try microing marines against blings. Or having good forcefields. Yes, maybe it is harder to try and micro marines against banelings, but that is completley subjective as well. Same thing goes for the forcefields, define a good forcefield. What if all you needed to do was block your ramp for 20 seconds and you had 5 sentries? Would it be really hard to get a couple "good forcefields" off? I am saying, zerg requires strategy and tactics much more than terran and protoss do. They need open field advantage, need to be able to get their flank on. It may not be "harder" to play zerg, but it is certainly more challenging to play zerg the way they are supposed to be played. I am inclined to disagree with you there. No offense, but your opinion sounds like that of someone who has never played P/T at a high level. Terrans have to put pressure on zergs when they play against them and Protoss players have to anticipate their every move to get the advantage. Read plexa's guide for the current PvZ environment and tell me that it's "more challenging" to play zerg.
Maybe you're right, I have never played P/T at a high level, probably because I play random at a high level. And to be honest, out of all the races, zerg is BY FAR the hardest race for me to play, and not because of macro or economy type problems. (because SC2 is a far easier game than SCBW due to all the automation making the little problems encountered in BW a thing of the past) but because of the tactics involved in successfully pulling off a win as zerg in a mid-late game scenario. Protoss and terran players have something to strive for when they play zerg. Be it a huge bio ball, or a mech build, or even bcs and ravens. Protoss can go for the collossi death ball, mothership play, templars, you know what I'm talking about. But zerg, it doesnt seem to have something to strive for when I play it, you are constantly having to tech switch and adapt to the P/T play, because THAT is what zerg does, they adapt to the other races style of play. It was the same in BW, you see he goes mass MnM, you dont stick with muta/ling, you get lurkers and DS, teching to ultra/crackling combo. It's the exact same in SC2, just with different units that have different abilities. Zerg can still be extremley powerful to play, but also extremeley frustrating when you keep having to make tech switches and what not, while your opponent just keeps massing up balls of the same units. Zerg needs to harass much more than other races, meaning more micro intensive, the ability to know when to cut drones, when to expand without it getting sniped 2 minutes later is much harder to "master" than slowly seige pushing off 2 bases to secure your third base. Zerg need constant waves of attacks usually to hold off terran and protoss pushes, with most battles coming out relatively even...it just seems MUCH more difficult to gain a big enough lead that you can capitalize on and ride out for the win with zerg.
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maybe it should be something like 50 games using a carrier at least once in each game? imo it would be much more interesting and viable than ...4gate... which, atleast as terran, its the easiest thing to hold.
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I see a lot of people saying this will "deteriorate" the player's skill, or it will, at the least, not increase his/her skill and land them amongst far superior players. But I have to respectfully disagree. I've heard several times that progamers (particularly in Korea) practice the crap out of one build to perfect it, find out what it works against, and what its weaknesses are. I used to start off each game deciding on a whim what strat to use, and try to win that game alone. I did okay, but I sort of hit a plateau. So I decided to try 1 strategy across the board, regardless of MU or map. Not only did I quickly learn how I needed to adapt it or, in some cases, scrap it altogether, my mechanics and game sense increased dramatically. My point is that doing the same strat over and over will teach you things about the game. It removes one variable from an incredibly complex system and allows you to better understand its depth. I think this is what Day[9] is always talking about when he says to just plant a stake in the ground, and declare that you WILL attack at 50 food. Then you have a baseline to which you can compare slight variations, and when your mechanics smooth out, as they're bound to over 100 games, you'll be able to understand timings better as well. Now, 100 games is a LOT, and I personally tweak my strat more often than that, but as has been stated, that's why it's a challenge! :p
To OP: I like the initiative, and would be interested in seeing more in the future!
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is there any prize or incentive for even doing this? other than e-fame for being a known 4 gater, which isnt really a good thing?
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Remember the 5 rax reaper opening vs zerg Terran did?
The ability to rax before supply depo?
Large % of players doing "X" strategy + high win % = Terrible TERRIBLE Nerfage.
You've been warned toss.
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On November 25 2010 07:58 DarkOmen wrote: I see a lot of people saying this will "deteriorate" the player's skill, or it will, at the least, not increase his/her skill and land them amongst far superior players. But I have to respectfully disagree. I've heard several times that progamers (particularly in Korea) practice the crap out of one build to perfect it, find out what it works against, and what its weaknesses are. I used to start off each game deciding on a whim what strat to use, and try to win that game alone. I did okay, but I sort of hit a plateau. So I decided to try 1 strategy across the board, regardless of MU or map. Not only did I quickly learn how I needed to adapt it or, in some cases, scrap it altogether, my mechanics and game sense increased dramatically. My point is that doing the same strat over and over will teach you things about the game. It removes one variable from an incredibly complex system and allows you to better understand its depth. I think this is what Day[9] is always talking about when he says to just plant a stake in the ground, and declare that you WILL attack at 50 food. Then you have a baseline to which you can compare slight variations, and when your mechanics smooth out, as they're bound to over 100 games, you'll be able to understand timings better as well. Now, 100 games is a LOT, and I personally tweak my strat more often than that, but as has been stated, that's why it's a challenge! :p
To OP: I like the initiative, and would be interested in seeing more in the future!
Exactly.
I think a lot of people who are on this site know what they are talking about. But I think 10x more of them have no fucking clue what they are talking about.
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I just played my first 5 games employing the 4-gate build. (or my variation of it.) and have had reasonable success. I'm really trying to find ways to get my expand up quicker. I quickly noticed 2 gas is way too much. I see a lot of places I can improve upon right off the top to my play, so worrying about that, and not the usual builds I employ can make thinking about my play a bit easier in-game.
Ahh, here's my replays; (Low level Platinum.) It'll be nice to have a timeline to track my own progress.
http://www.mediafire.com/?zik44bd4r1wqrtr
Oh, and if you want to practice against the 4-gate build, Ill count those as my games. May as well improve, and help someone learn how to hold it off. =D
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please dont encourage 4gating omg =[
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On November 25 2010 08:24 drewbie.root wrote: please dont encourage 4gating omg =[ hahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaha
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Why do a build that we know already works? do something more unorthodox like:
NonY's dual stargate build.
2gate robo fast collosi.
I find this challenge a bit silly IMO.
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On November 25 2010 07:04 Suerte wrote: This thread would be better served teaching our Protoss friends to expand more. Attempt an FE in every game for 100 games, this will make you a better player. Besides, 4 gate is easy to stop by every race but Protoss. FE is far more fun than four gating, but four gating on backdoor maps is quite easy and strong. I find it kind of bad against good players if you try to bust their front with it. You generally have to completely surprise them or they just hunker down and repel.
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On November 25 2010 08:24 drewbie.root wrote: please dont encourage 4gating omg =[
Why does it matter? I guess we should all discourage VR's, DT's, Banshee's as well then right? It's not THAT unstoppable. Seriously, I wonder what Boxer (not that fag Foxer) but the real guy would say to us if he were reading this, or Nada, or F-dealer, or nestea, I don't think any of them would have anything bad to say about. Sure it may not be the hardest strategy to impliment, but don't fucking wine and cry about it just because you lose a few games to it. It's like any other strategy, if you lose 20 games in a row to the same person doing the exact same thing every game, you're gonna be pissed, learn to ADAPT, please. This thread should be closed.
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On November 25 2010 08:34 FlakeyGiraffe wrote: Why do a build that we know already works? do something more unorthodox like:
NonY's dual stargate build.
2gate robo fast collosi.
I find this challenge a bit silly IMO.
The reason why we "do a build" that already works, is because it's a GAME, and you can do WHATEVER THE FUCK you want in that game while you're playing. It's not like 4 gate build is some uber 1337 hax and you're CHEATING to win everytime you use it. You could build 10 proxy nexus' and pure probes and rush them with that and win if you wanted (not saying its viable, but seriously) just trying to get the point across that I, and ANYONE else can do anything they want in a 1v1. So stop whining about it. And if you still wanna whine about it, go back to BW. Nuff said.
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On November 25 2010 08:34 FlakeyGiraffe wrote: Why do a build that we know already works? do something more unorthodox like:
NonY's dual stargate build.
2gate robo fast collosi.
I find this challenge a bit silly IMO.
Honestly, I think the best build for this sort of test would be 1 gate FE into X against all races. The game will inevitably switch toward more macro oriented play. Maybe 4 gate contain into expand would also work, but I think no matter what build you choose. Doing it 100 times back to back would probably have a greater overall improvement on your game than you could get by doing a different build all the time. Sometimes seeing the many different responses to your one build can be very eye opening and lead to some new ideas or take your game to another level. Im one of those that thinks this type of thing will greatly enhance your play rather than detract from it.
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congrats on lpaying protoss.
nice way of learning the game mechanics lol ......
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On November 25 2010 08:48 Santi wrote: congrats on lpaying protoss.
nice way of learning the game mechanics lol ......
Just lost to 4 gate? lol
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On November 25 2010 08:40 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:34 FlakeyGiraffe wrote: Why do a build that we know already works? do something more unorthodox like:
NonY's dual stargate build.
2gate robo fast collosi.
I find this challenge a bit silly IMO. The reason why we "do a build" that already works, is because it's a GAME, and you can do WHATEVER THE FUCK you want in that game while you're playing. It's not like 4 gate build is some uber 1337 hax and you're CHEATING to win everytime you use it. You could build 10 proxy nexus' and pure probes and rush them with that and win if you wanted (not saying its viable, but seriously) just trying to get the point across that I, and ANYONE else can do anything they want in a 1v1. So stop whining about it. And if you still wanna whine about it, go back to BW. Nuff said.
Let me condense this down: If someone thinks 4 gate is such a "cheap" or "scrubby" tactic, why are you still dying to it? If someone cries "oh you 4 gated me, tosses can only 4 gate, it's so cheap" it means they are the scrub. No, it might not teach the protoss player about aspects of the game other than being aggressive, but playing to win is not playing to learn.
A lot of people find 4 gate comically easy to defuse, really.
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On November 25 2010 08:51 Tuneful wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:40 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:On November 25 2010 08:34 FlakeyGiraffe wrote: Why do a build that we know already works? do something more unorthodox like:
NonY's dual stargate build.
2gate robo fast collosi.
I find this challenge a bit silly IMO. The reason why we "do a build" that already works, is because it's a GAME, and you can do WHATEVER THE FUCK you want in that game while you're playing. It's not like 4 gate build is some uber 1337 hax and you're CHEATING to win everytime you use it. You could build 10 proxy nexus' and pure probes and rush them with that and win if you wanted (not saying its viable, but seriously) just trying to get the point across that I, and ANYONE else can do anything they want in a 1v1. So stop whining about it. And if you still wanna whine about it, go back to BW. Nuff said. Let me condense this down: If someone thinks 4 gate is such a "cheap" or "scrubby" tactic, why are you still dying to it? If someone cries "oh you 4 gated me, tosses can only 4 gate, it's so cheap" it means they are the scrub. No, it might not teach the protoss player about aspects of the game other than being aggressive, but playing to win is not playing to learn. A lot of people find 4 gate comically easy to defuse, really.
Ah yes, and now I'll condense your post down even further. With some help from your bolded words.
THEY WIN. LEARN. I think most people should get what I mean from that, if not: well, they are winning, so LEARN what you need to do to stop them from winning with this strat. Obviously people are win whores, so they are going to do the same thing every time if they can win EVERY time doing it. I am right or what?
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On November 25 2010 08:51 Tuneful wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:40 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:On November 25 2010 08:34 FlakeyGiraffe wrote: Why do a build that we know already works? do something more unorthodox like:
NonY's dual stargate build.
2gate robo fast collosi.
I find this challenge a bit silly IMO. The reason why we "do a build" that already works, is because it's a GAME, and you can do WHATEVER THE FUCK you want in that game while you're playing. It's not like 4 gate build is some uber 1337 hax and you're CHEATING to win everytime you use it. You could build 10 proxy nexus' and pure probes and rush them with that and win if you wanted (not saying its viable, but seriously) just trying to get the point across that I, and ANYONE else can do anything they want in a 1v1. So stop whining about it. And if you still wanna whine about it, go back to BW. Nuff said. Let me condense this down: If someone thinks 4 gate is such a "cheap" or "scrubby" tactic, why are you still dying to it? If someone cries "oh you 4 gated me, tosses can only 4 gate, it's so cheap" it means they are the scrub. No, it might not teach the protoss player about aspects of the game other than being aggressive, but playing to win is not playing to learn. A lot of people find 4 gate comically easy to defuse, really.
Losing to 4gate doesn't necessarily mean you're a scrub. Alot of Diamond toss players still 4gate except they actively try and hide the fact that they're 4gating. Hiding buildings, faking a FE, actively denying scouting etc.
Even pros still lose to 4gate. It's strong when it has the element of surprise, and the higher you go the better people are at hiding what theyre doing/deceiving you and taking you by surprise. Most of the time you can tell even if they are. A FE without a forge can make you suspicious enough to scan or sac an OL. But sometimes you won't see it. I usually hold them off but I've lost to them before and I'll probably lose to it again, sadly.
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any of you cocksuckers wanna do 100 4gates vs my zerg?
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.. well at least a lot of people will get to learn how to stop 4 gates now!
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You guys are really missing the point. I'm a protoss player that got to a decently high level never 4-gating once because I didnt want to be a one trick pony. The real benefit to this is to control an aspect of your game that is often confusing and overwhelming. By doing the same build over and over you can sharpen your fundamentals alot faster than if you were constantly thinking about what to build next, etc. Honestly figuring out what to build is the EASY part of the game. The fundamentals are what is lost on many players. This is why the koreans are so good... they practice alot and they practice in a smart way, by lowering the number of builds they do and doing them often to have a solid foundation. Once built, the other stuff comes easy, but without it you could have 15 different builds and still be terrible.
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On November 25 2010 08:35 Craton wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 07:04 Suerte wrote: This thread would be better served teaching our Protoss friends to expand more. Attempt an FE in every game for 100 games, this will make you a better player. Besides, 4 gate is easy to stop by every race but Protoss. FE is far more fun than four gating, but four gating on backdoor maps is quite easy and strong. I find it kind of bad against good players if you try to bust their front with it. You generally have to completely surprise them or they just hunker down and repel.
Yea, that is true, I kinda forgot, I have blistering sands veto'd same with DQ because of how lame it is to deal with a 4 gate PvP on those maps. I just think we shouldn't be encouraging players to 4 gate. It's incredibly boring to play and watch. I cry every game I've seen people only 4 gate every single match in tournaments. There's people that only 4 gate and it's just so boring.
I'm mostly just bitter because PvP is my least favorite matchup :X
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On November 25 2010 08:49 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:48 Santi wrote: congrats on lpaying protoss.
nice way of learning the game mechanics lol ...... Just lost to 4 gate? lol
nah, havent lost to one in a while. but i always like to scout it cause i know i will win.
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On November 25 2010 08:55 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:51 Tuneful wrote:On November 25 2010 08:40 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:On November 25 2010 08:34 FlakeyGiraffe wrote: Why do a build that we know already works? do something more unorthodox like:
NonY's dual stargate build.
2gate robo fast collosi.
I find this challenge a bit silly IMO. The reason why we "do a build" that already works, is because it's a GAME, and you can do WHATEVER THE FUCK you want in that game while you're playing. It's not like 4 gate build is some uber 1337 hax and you're CHEATING to win everytime you use it. You could build 10 proxy nexus' and pure probes and rush them with that and win if you wanted (not saying its viable, but seriously) just trying to get the point across that I, and ANYONE else can do anything they want in a 1v1. So stop whining about it. And if you still wanna whine about it, go back to BW. Nuff said. Let me condense this down: If someone thinks 4 gate is such a "cheap" or "scrubby" tactic, why are you still dying to it? If someone cries "oh you 4 gated me, tosses can only 4 gate, it's so cheap" it means they are the scrub. No, it might not teach the protoss player about aspects of the game other than being aggressive, but playing to win is not playing to learn. A lot of people find 4 gate comically easy to defuse, really. Ah yes, and now I'll condense your post down even further. With some help from your bolded words. THEY WIN. LEARN. I think most people should get what I mean from that, if not: well, they are winning, so LEARN what you need to do to stop them from winning with this strat. Obviously people are win whores, so they are going to do the same thing every time if they can win EVERY time doing it. I am right or what?
I build a worker at the start of every game. Win whoring me.
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lol interesting idea
altho i fkn hate 4gate - it never stops being good =/
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On November 25 2010 08:40 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 08:34 FlakeyGiraffe wrote: Why do a build that we know already works? do something more unorthodox like:
NonY's dual stargate build.
2gate robo fast collosi.
I find this challenge a bit silly IMO. The reason why we "do a build" that already works, is because it's a GAME, and you can do WHATEVER THE FUCK you want in that game while you're playing. It's not like 4 gate build is some uber 1337 hax and you're CHEATING to win everytime you use it. You could build 10 proxy nexus' and pure probes and rush them with that and win if you wanted (not saying its viable, but seriously) just trying to get the point across that I, and ANYONE else can do anything they want in a 1v1. So stop whining about it. And if you still wanna whine about it, go back to BW. Nuff said.
Wow mvp. Why are you getting angry? He is just wondering why don't we do a different build instead of four gate, a polite inquiry. He's talking about the challenge. He's not whining about anything! Holy crap, you are ridiculous. He knows that you can do whatever you want. He is wondering about this challenge that we have set up.
Personally I don't think this four gate is a very good idea either, you can do whatever you want. But IMO I don't think I like it. Maybe 3 gate expand? Doesn't matter to me, I don't play Protoss, but I think it would be better to do the three gate expand, as it will get a pretty good lead in the game. Just my opinion.
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Its shit like this that has made me despise the USA ladder since day one, people are not interested in improving themselves they just want to see their points go up. When every other game is some all in neither side gains anything from the game win or lose, neither player improved their macro or micro. Playing nothing but some new all in from the last round of GSL Vods gets really old fast.
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what you gotta understand is that sc2 has not gotten (yet) to the point of BW where all that matters are your mechanics because the strategy wise side is solved so the one whit better micro/macro ends up winning... so thats why all-ins are so good... and you do learn from those since you learn to defend from them and if your greedy and face them a lot you can test how much you can get away whit making you at the end better at decition making and better strategy wise... so yes you do learn from it... unless your just mindlessly doing an all-in every game and not even looking for place to improve on your replays.
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On November 25 2010 08:24 drewbie.root wrote: please dont encourage 4gating omg =[
4 Gate is just the beginning of this series, I picked it because it is viable against all three races =)
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Also, a common myth is that Katari only 4gates. If you look at his build orders, he 2/3gate robo's with delayed colossi quite a bit too.
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I hate how people say "good players don't lose to x strategy". Most of these are cheeses, including 4 gates, six pools, and proxy gates/raxes, however GSL players get knocked out by these things all the time.
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On November 25 2010 10:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: I hate how people say "good players don't lose to x strategy". Most of these are cheeses, including 4 gates, six pools, and proxy gates/raxes, however GSL players get knocked out by these things all the time.
4 gate is NOT a cheese, unless we're talking about attempting to get a pylon in the enemy base (Korean 4-gate)
It's an all-in. Please pound the difference into your skull.
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On November 25 2010 10:14 tetramaster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 10:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: I hate how people say "good players don't lose to x strategy". Most of these are cheeses, including 4 gates, six pools, and proxy gates/raxes, however GSL players get knocked out by these things all the time. 4 gate is NOT a cheese, unless we're talking about attempting to get a pylon in the enemy base (Korean 4-gate) It's an all-in. Please pound the difference into your skull.
4 gate on steppes of war. MMMMM, they can even scout it and its hard.. :D
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On November 25 2010 10:17 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 10:14 tetramaster wrote:On November 25 2010 10:02 sjschmidt93 wrote: I hate how people say "good players don't lose to x strategy". Most of these are cheeses, including 4 gates, six pools, and proxy gates/raxes, however GSL players get knocked out by these things all the time. 4 gate is NOT a cheese, unless we're talking about attempting to get a pylon in the enemy base (Korean 4-gate) It's an all-in. Please pound the difference into your skull. 4 gate on steppes of war. MMMMM, they can even scout it and its hard.. :D
Its still not a cheese. You dont cut probe production, and you don't HAVE to make any sort of proxy. Its a 4 gate build, doesnt mean you HAVE to use any gateways at all. If you see an opportunity to expand 5 times before making any units, you could TECHNICALLY make 50 gateways before making so much as a zealot. Sorry, 4 gate will never be cheese, there is no cheese, its all in the game. The only thing that could be considered "cheese" is when a player pulls off 4 or more workers to send with their attack, then thats more of a cheese. People ALWAYS complain when other players find a different way to win that they have never seen before. People need to just suck it up and stop complaining about losing. Seriously.
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On November 25 2010 09:01 CharlieMurphy wrote: any of you cocksuckers wanna do 100 4gates vs my zerg?
thats not very nice, I'm quoting so maybe a mod could take care of him?
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Holding off a 4-gate is one of the most stressful things in the world. Shame on you for making this challenge.
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Good luck to everyone going for the challenge.
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Haven't you people seen the zerg that uses no queens and beats a 4 gate push?
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No, mvp, could you provide replay/VOD?
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Name/ID: Salivanth.254 Division: Silver Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1201 (557 bonus pool) Final score: 24-26 Replay pack: Not happening (I suck, you really don't want to watch them, and I didn't complete the challenge)
This is a good challenge for me: Often I'll lose a game because I have no idea what build I'm gonna do when I enter the game and scramble for an idea. I've actually been like "Okay, so I might FE, oh, I just threw down a Gateway, guess I'll go robo this game", so this will allow me to focus.
100 straight games of 4-Gate should allow me to learn that build, then keep it in my toolbox, forever, even if I 4-gate 6 times a year afterwards.
Plus, once we've done that we'll move on to the 100 Slightly-More-Macro-Based-Build Challenge (I'm thinking some sort of Robo build)
P.S: In the build I use, I cut probes at 30, and get 3 waves of units on top of my initial gateway units, attacking with 7 Zealots, 6 Stalkers, and 2 Sentries (60 food, so fairly late).
EDIT: I've decided to discontinue my attempt at 50 matches. I learnt some stuff about micro, practiced the build, and now it's time to move on to either 2-Gate Robo, or, if I'm addicted to losing for a while, FE.
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On November 25 2010 17:13 Salivanth wrote:Name/ID: Salivanth.254 Division: Silver Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1201 (557 bonus pool) Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Probably not for a couple of months if I stick with this, I don't play much. This is a good challenge for me: Often I'll lose a game because I have no idea what build I'm gonna do when I enter the game and scramble for an idea. I've actually been like "Okay, so I might FE, oh, I just threw down a Gateway, guess I'll go robo this game", so this will allow me to focus. 100 straight games of 4-Gate should allow me to learn that build, then keep it in my toolbox, forever, even if I 4-gate 6 times a year afterwards. Plus, once we've done that we'll move on to the 100 Slightly-More-Macro-Based-Build Challenge (I'm thinking some sort of Robo build) If you want to learn fundamentals, I'd suggest going 2 Gate-Robo every game instead of 4 gate. It allows you to be aggressive or sit back and macro. You could figure out your own variation of it and make several different options out of it. If you do 4 Gate every game, you're forced to do early pressure that kills your opponent or puts you extremely far ahead and if it fails you're screwed. 2 Gate Robo on the other hand allows you to put on some early pressure and follow up with several possible builds to play out the game.
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All the 4-gaters in GSL lose. This also helps explain why there are so few P in high level play but so many on the ladder.
4-gating will make you a mediocre player and probably get you high on the ladder. 4-gating may even earn you a few wins in tourneys and what not. But, it will never produce a good player or a winner. 2 GSLs and no P in the top 4 with only 5 advancing so far in GSL 3 with a large number of P doing some 4-gate and losing.
Moral: 4-gate if you like mediocracy and don't want to get better.
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Woohoo here come some free wins for me I love when a toss 4 gates me.
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If you wan't to learn fundamentals... this made me giggle. maybe short for wan not?
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My main race is zerg and I've never played toss before, but I'm gonna give this a try ^^
Name/ID: ecomania Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 572 (1233 Bonus pool) Points x Games into challenge: ~ Final score: Unknown Replay pack: When it's done
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On November 24 2010 15:41 b_unnies wrote: i'd much prefer to have Protoss do a challenge where they don't go 4 gate for 100 games Quoted for truth.
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I think this is a good initiative!
I'm also mixing 10 different builds and none of them are refined at all.
I just started 1 hour ago and won't be able to play a lot currently but should be ok.
Name/ID: graxx Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1176 (850 Bonus pool) Points 2 Games into challenge: 1232 Final score: Unknown Replay pack: end of the year I hope
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On November 25 2010 20:23 roliax wrote: All the 4-gaters in GSL lose. This also helps explain why there are so few P in high level play but so many on the ladder.
4-gating will make you a mediocre player and probably get you high on the ladder. 4-gating may even earn you a few wins in tourneys and what not. But, it will never produce a good player or a winner. 2 GSLs and no P in the top 4 with only 5 advancing so far in GSL 3 with a large number of P doing some 4-gate and losing.
Moral: 4-gate if you like mediocracy and don't want to get better.
Second this. I hate seeing 4-Gate Protoss players. It promotes crappy macro play and little variation in Protoss play.
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I only use 4-gate when I'm playing a Bo3 or a series of some kind. It's pretty useless on ladder.
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On November 25 2010 23:35 Twistacles wrote: I only use 4-gate when I'm playing a Bo3 or a series of some kind. It's pretty useless on ladder.
This man lies. Don't trust him!
Sup Twist.
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If you know a 4 gate is coming it is easy enough to hold against. What is annoying is that the build is so ridiculously easy to execute. Players with far inferior mechanics can win against better players just because Protoss happens to have one build that requires no skill and can win you games up into mid-high diamond.
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On November 25 2010 23:44 Centorian wrote: If you know a 4 gate is coming it is easy enough to hold against. What is annoying is that the build is so ridiculously easy to execute. Players with far inferior mechanics can win against better players just because Protoss happens to have one build that requires no skill and can win you games up into mid-high diamond. Are you seriously implying that Protoss is alone in this?
Shit, my P friends can offrace and 3rax/marine-raven-banshee rush me dead.
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Russian Federation20 Posts
Thanks for that challenge! I've played about 15 games, lost about 4 of them. People are getting pissed off by 4 gate, it's so funny
I don't see why 4gating will not make me a good player. It will surely improve my micro at least. If it will promote me to higher level, then I'll be facing better players, therefore I will learn from them and get even better eventually. The only way to learn to play better is to play with stronger opponents.
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Wow the amount of hate in this thread is a little to much. This is no poll this is not posing the question of how much you like/dislike the 4 gate. There is to much derailing in here why people are coming in here and just voicing their opinion on 4 gate and how much they hate 4 gate. Why not just make a straight up topic and you all discuss it in there. Coming in here and ranting is straight up trolling whether it's intentional or not.
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Haha, the hate for 4 gate in this thread is hilarious. Let me address a few of the misconceptions people have about this build.
It will only work against bad players I'm a 2k diamond player, so the opponents I face should be pretty decent. My main race is zerg and protoss is easily my weakest race and for the 18 games I've played in this challenge so far, I'm 12-6. Now there's certainly a pretty big gap between 2k diamond and the very top players, but we still frequently see 4 gates in GSL and major foreign tournaments. Yes, top players are much better at holding off 4 gate builds than your average gold leaguer, but then a 4 gate done by Genius or Tester is also much harder to stop than the average gold protoss's 4 gate.
It won't teach you anything about the game Here's an idea: maybe doing 4 gate will teach you how to 4 gate. 4 gate is not a very complicated build, but the difference between a well executed 4 gate rush and a sloppy 4 gate is still pretty big. 4 gate is one of the most important protoss builds in the game, so any protoss player should know how to do it properly, and the only way to learn it is to practice it. Also, there are many fundamentals of protoss that you can learn through 4 gating, such as microing your basic gateway units or switching back to your pylons to produce units even during a fight.
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4gate is a perfectly reasonable strategy with just as many strengths and weaknesses as any other. I'd bet there's just as many Zs and Ts who love playing 4gaters as those who hate it, because they're just good at dealing with it. If it's causing you problems that's not the build's fault, and you should welcome more 4gates because you obviously need to practice against it.
Anyway, I'm not sure I like the idea of a challenge like this. 100 games is a bit much imo (that's half the amount of games I've ever played!). I'm all for ironing out a play style, and sure I bet I'd go up in rank by perfecting any build, but by the end of 100 games I'd be a one-trick pony playing way out of my league, and that's no fun. Maybe if you alternate every 20 games or so with another style, but I guess that's not the point.
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On November 26 2010 02:51 sambour wrote: 4gate is a perfectly reasonable strategy with just as many strengths and weaknesses as any other. I'd bet there's just as many Zs and Ts who love playing 4gaters as those who hate it, because they're just good at dealing with it. If it's causing you problems that's not the build's fault, and you should welcome more 4gates because you obviously need to practice against it.
Anyway, I'm not sure I like the idea of a challenge like this. 100 games is a bit much imo (that's half the amount of games I've ever played!). I'm all for ironing out a play style, and sure I bet I'd go up in rank by perfecting any build, but by the end of 100 games I'd be a one-trick pony playing way out of my league, and that's no fun. Maybe if you alternate every 20 games or so with another style, but I guess that's not the point. Remember that 4-gate games won't usually last more than eight minutes so you get to play more games ^^. In my opion, 4 gate is all-in in every match-up, but in PvP. It is actually very solid opening in PvP :b
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Does 4-gate with +1 timing attack count towards the challenge? If it does, I think this may be worth a shot (+1 attack vs zerg is so hilarious)
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On November 24 2010 15:25 haegN wrote: I am doing this because I didnt use to 4 gate that much, and I wanted to see what it would be like
It looks like the 2nd easiest way to win without macro (sorry 4gate but 2 rax all-in gets the 1st place).
EDIT: (The one after BB codes) Even I can win with 4 gate and I'm a silver zerg
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Why is 4gate a way to win without macro?
You still need to warp units at every cooldown to do it right. How come it's different from warping out of 10 gates in a late game?
edit: and what about chrono boost?
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On November 26 2010 03:37 beef42 wrote: Why is 4gate a way to win without macro?
You still need to warp units at every cooldown to do it right. How come it's different from warping out of 10 gates in a late game?
Macro as in dealing with multiple bases and handling upgrades, supply, etc.
Of course, with protoss, unless you're building out of stargates and robo bays, you use the same amount of effort warping in units when you get warp-gates as when you're 20+ minutes into the game, so the whole "win without macro" is more of "OMG I JUST GOT ALL-INED QQ" situation whine, like when you see some protoss players QQ about getting roaches in their face early-game.
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In fact, I'd argue that it's actually easier in the late game, because you are more restricted by resources than warpgate time when you have many gates, so you just end up warping in whenever you have money for it.
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On November 26 2010 03:43 beef42 wrote: In fact, I'd argue that it's actually easier in the late game, because you are more restricted by resources than warpgate time when you have many gates, so you just end up warping in whenever you have money for it.
If you don't have enough money, then you have bad macro. Getting new bases, managing workers, etc, is all part of macro. So it is easier in the late game if you cannot afford units because it is easier to do worse.
4gate you are skipping basically all of macro, and only making army, which is the easiest thing ever.
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Please explain to me why making a nexus and transfering workers there every so often is so much harder and more skilled than warping units out of warpgates every time they're up.
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Didnt read the whole only till 9th page but here are my 2 cets
+ It will teach you the discipline to sit down and play 100 games with the same BO + Learning on your own to perfect an opening and adjust it based on scouting and learning to transition + mikro + after this you will exactly know when you can 4gate and win
+ for other people: You will learn how to defend against 4 gate if enought players will participate
And for all the haters. Check Huks interview all korean toss are 4gating on lader in PvP.....
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This is the only problem with ladder games. You rarely play the same person twice, so people can get away with doing the same thing every game.
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On November 26 2010 04:05 whitelynx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 03:43 beef42 wrote: In fact, I'd argue that it's actually easier in the late game, because you are more restricted by resources than warpgate time when you have many gates, so you just end up warping in whenever you have money for it. If you don't have enough money, then you have bad macro. Getting new bases, managing workers, etc, is all part of macro. So it is easier in the late game if you cannot afford units because it is easier to do worse. 4gate you are skipping basically all of macro, and only making army, which is the easiest thing ever.
If you don't have money that means that have have good macro? I think this is what you mean since you'd be MACROING units, therefore having no money....right?
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so you want your fellow toss players to become worse? lol
Personally (Z), i believe that 4gate is a good build, however it's one of those builds where once it's stopped, you're not in the greatest of positions... Also, the fact that it is pretty good, people will start to rely on it too much, and get rolled by people who know how to stop it (not always, but a good portion)...
Pretty funny challenge though.
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Okay, played 20 games so far and won 16 out of those. I knew that 4 gate was a good build, but I never actually realised how strong it was against terran and protoss. However, I'm not really having success with it against zerg, which is pretty much expected since I have very little trouble with 4 gate when I'm playing zerg in the latest patch. Those PvZ games i won all went into mid or late game after I pulled back when I realised I wasn't going to break the zerg (except that one game where my opponent made mass lings but forgot speed upgrade^^).
I've gained 130 points of which about 20 are bonus pool.
Name/ID: drunkenJedi.346 League: Diamond Points before: 1989 (11 Bonus pool) Points after 20 games: 2119 Final score: ?
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I just fail at counting the number of LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime wannabees in this thread. This is the protoss equivalent of 6 pooling next 100 people who comes across you on the ladder. It helps nothing except mastering on 4 warpgate build.
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On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:I just fail at counting the number of LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime wannabees in this thread. This is the protoss equivalent of 6 pooling next 100 people who comes across you on the ladder. It helps nothing except mastering on 4 warpgate build.
Why would you post this? A lot of good good posts defended this challenge with structured arguments that you just ignored.
As many others have said it's a great way to practice. You will use gateway units in combat over and over while you have to macro out new ones... Useful skill to have indeed.
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On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:I just fail at counting the number of LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime wannabees in this thread. This is the protoss equivalent of 6 pooling next 100 people who comes across you on the ladder. It helps nothing except mastering on 4 warpgate build.
Your hate is unwarranted.
It gets you to think about the following
-Warp gate cooldown -Keeping your supply in check and not supply blocking your next warp in -Micro (*) -Decision making (*)
Not every game needs to be 20+ minutes long. (And the opposite is true as well, not every game should end before the 10 minute mark. However, people will do what works, and clearly, 4-gate sill works as people still have trouble holding it off.)
*Note, micro, and decision making, does matter to some extent. Deciding what to attack to force your opponent to come to YOU, or chasing down your opponent and not running into a bad situation (forcefielding half your army behind a ramp) is crucial when facing higher level opponents.
IF you have little trouble holding 4-gates, then consider anyone that does it free wins. Otherwise, consider it a lesson in holding off early pressure and scouting your damn opponent. It isn't hard to spot, it isn't too hard to stop unless you are a WORSE PLAYER than the person 4-gating you.
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On November 26 2010 07:22 Patriot.dlk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:I just fail at counting the number of LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime wannabees in this thread. This is the protoss equivalent of 6 pooling next 100 people who comes across you on the ladder. It helps nothing except mastering on 4 warpgate build. Why would you post this? A lot of good good posts defended this challenge with structured arguments that you just ignored. As many others have said it's a great way to practice. You will use gateway units in combat over and over while you have to macro out new ones... Useful skill to have indeed.
He's probably butthurt because he gets owned by 4gates on ladder all the time
seems like a fun little thing to do, though 100games might be a bit extreme imho
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I actually do look back at games and say wow i was a dick that game. i shouldnt be stoving noobs on bnet east or aiyumi builds vs D level iccup zergs. not kool entertaining not kool.
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On November 25 2010 16:42 haegN wrote:No, mvp, could you provide replay/VOD? I dont feel like finding the link, but its one of the day 9 funday monday videos where some counters a walled in 4 gate push with no queens and PURE 1/1 roaches, its badass. he rick rolled the guy with some good micro
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On November 26 2010 08:36 mvpAKAenvyME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2010 16:42 haegN wrote:No, mvp, could you provide replay/VOD? I dont feel like finding the link, but its one of the day 9 funday monday videos where some counters a walled in 4 gate push with no queens and PURE 1/1 roaches, its badass. he rick rolled the guy with some good micro http://day9tv.blip.tv/file/4149200/
It's the first game, so about 1-2 minutes in if you really want to skip the intro
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So I guess I should seven pool everygame? I mean like you said if i win I must have out played them? No sir. This is weak play that normaly takes out newer players and good players that take make hat one misstake and is used for a easy win (99.9 percent of the time).
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Here are my first twenty 4 gates. http://www.mediafire.com/?qt7bf7eqm0i39dm
I think I'm around 50/50 doing it, but noticeable improvements in control, and a much better understanding of unit composition early game.
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I don't have SC2, but if I did I would probably do this. I think this is actually important for development in styles. There have always been styles that's just own you. Back in the day on PGtour(or early iCCup) I(and pretty much every protoss) owned every zerg with fast expand into zealot with legspeed. Many people were pissed off by this, but then a pro(don't remember who now) came up with this fast muta style that just owned the zealots(obviously). Because of this, protoss players had to do something new, which was fast corsair into 2gate reaver(or something like that). My point is: there will always be hard strategies, and we just have to adapt and learn. As I said, I don't have SC2 myself, and don't know much about it, but if more protoss players do this on ladder zergs and terrans will be able to find a way around it, eventually
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I'm a Zerg that encountered my first 4gate an hour ago. I'm still bronze, but I've been fighting silvers or golds, and this guy was gold. I won after a rough transition out of 7 roach rush. I think he may have left me alone too long after he found out I had spines and a small roach army waiting for him. When he encountered me at my base, he might have been able to win regardless.
Here's the replay. I know I haven't got the best sense of mechanics yet, but I'm certainly optimistic. Still, I'm thinking his was a not so well done 4-gate.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah, I'm basically 7 roach rushing my games until I level out somewhere. :3c
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I don't know why most people still think protoss is alone with the "highly effective yet easy to pull off" build. When off racing as terran in custom games despite not knowing a clear build order I can beat protoss at 1700 rating (a bit above my level) by only knowing that 2 reactor-ed raxxes with a scouting factory and 2 tech lab-ed starports will net me wins against protosses much much much better than me.
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Next big challenge = the 100 6-8 pool challange for zerg?
I think the argument to justify that one would be saying that six pooling requires very superior micro, or something like that.
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On November 26 2010 07:35 FliedLice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 07:22 Patriot.dlk wrote:On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:I just fail at counting the number of LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime wannabees in this thread. This is the protoss equivalent of 6 pooling next 100 people who comes across you on the ladder. It helps nothing except mastering on 4 warpgate build. Why would you post this? A lot of good good posts defended this challenge with structured arguments that you just ignored. As many others have said it's a great way to practice. You will use gateway units in combat over and over while you have to macro out new ones... Useful skill to have indeed. He's probably butthurt because he gets owned by 4gates on ladder all the time seems like a fun little thing to do, though 100games might be a bit extreme imho
That's kinda the point of holding a contest
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On November 25 2010 17:13 Salivanth wrote:Name/ID: Salivanth.254 Division: Silver Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1201 (557 bonus pool) Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Probably not for a couple of months if I stick with this, I don't play much. This is a good challenge for me: Often I'll lose a game because I have no idea what build I'm gonna do when I enter the game and scramble for an idea. I've actually been like "Okay, so I might FE, oh, I just threw down a Gateway, guess I'll go robo this game", so this will allow me to focus. 100 straight games of 4-Gate should allow me to learn that build, then keep it in my toolbox, forever, even if I 4-gate 6 times a year afterwards. Plus, once we've done that we'll move on to the 100 Slightly-More-Macro-Based-Build Challenge (I'm thinking some sort of Robo build) P.S: In the build I use, I cut probes at 30, and get 3 waves of units on top of my initial gateway units, attacking with 7 Zealots, 6 Stalkers, and 2 Sentries (60 food, so fairly late).
I don't think this is the way to go. Attack after second wave of units, and cut probes at around 20 and you'll get out of silver in no time.
Why not copy superior players instead of trying to create your own build? Not to be elitist or anything like that, but I think you should start creating your own builds when you get a little better at the game
GL in the challenge
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Name/ID: Strider.264 Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1140 (700 Bonus pool) Final score: TBA
Reserved for my results
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Fuck this challenge. I am sick unto death of facing the endless stream of dicks who can do nothing but 4-gate. And now this! Encouraging them! It doesn't matter that it's easy to brush off, it's just so fucking boring to see it time and time again, and as a Protoss player I feel embarrassed/cheapened/dirty. I think I'll start my own personal challenge to BM every dick who 4-gates me, and in a unique and startling way with each incarnation.
I hope you all fail
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On November 26 2010 07:23 tetramaster wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:I just fail at counting the number of LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime wannabees in this thread. This is the protoss equivalent of 6 pooling next 100 people who comes across you on the ladder. It helps nothing except mastering on 4 warpgate build. Your hate is unwarranted. It gets you to think about the following -Warp gate cooldown -Keeping your supply in check and not supply blocking your next warp in -Micro (*) -Decision making (*) Not every game needs to be 20+ minutes long. (And the opposite is true as well, not every game should end before the 10 minute mark. However, people will do what works, and clearly, 4-gate sill works as people still have trouble holding it off.) *Note, micro, and decision making, does matter to some extent. Deciding what to attack to force your opponent to come to YOU, or chasing down your opponent and not running into a bad situation (forcefielding half your army behind a ramp) is crucial when facing higher level opponents. IF you have little trouble holding 4-gates, then consider anyone that does it free wins. Otherwise, consider it a lesson in holding off early pressure and scouting your damn opponent. It isn't hard to spot, it isn't too hard to stop unless you are a WORSE PLAYER than the person 4-gating you.
Thanks dood but (even) I can hold a 4gate because I practiced it over&over again. Hatch first holds it quite effectively because most variations of 4gate never includes a forge.
But also note that all those things you mentioned are the things to be learned AFTER you learn macro imo and this is far from being educational until mid diamond (I don't know that but people say that a good macro will bring you up to mid diamond).
On November 26 2010 07:22 Patriot.dlk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:I just fail at counting the number of LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime wannabees in this thread. This is the protoss equivalent of 6 pooling next 100 people who comes across you on the ladder. It helps nothing except mastering on 4 warpgate build. Why would you post this? A lot of good good posts defended this challenge with structured arguments that you just ignored. As many others have said it's a great way to practice. You will use gateway units in combat over and over while you have to macro out new ones... Useful skill to have indeed.
Macroing out of 1 base is child's play. Real macro comes in the game after 3rd base (which is the exact point that my macro starts slipping). And, like I said above, these skills are useful after mid diamond and will turn you into LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime-ish players (If that guy knows how to macro, so do I).
On November 26 2010 17:47 melquiades wrote:Fuck this challenge. I am sick unto death of facing the endless stream of dicks who can do nothing but 4-gate. And now this! Encouraging them! It doesn't matter that it's easy to brush off, it's just so fucking boring to see it time and time again, and as a Protoss player I feel embarrassed/cheapened/dirty. I think I'll start my own personal challenge to BM every dick who 4-gates me, and in a unique and startling way with each incarnation. I hope you all fail
I'm in with your challenge. But I have a clause: I won't insult my own practice partners.
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let people 4-gate if they want. Every race can pull something like 4 gate off. I personally wouldn't care about that, because 4 gate isn't that big of a deal to hold.
I 4-gated when 1 was bronce for like 10-15 games to try it out, but it became really boring, because it's every time the same. And I personally think that the learning effect for nearly everybody == zero (or to say it correctly: in 100 "normal" games anyone would learn MUCH more)
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On November 26 2010 12:30 Trigramatic wrote:I'm a Zerg that encountered my first 4gate an hour ago. I'm still bronze, but I've been fighting silvers or golds, and this guy was gold. I won after a rough transition out of 7 roach rush. I think he may have left me alone too long after he found out I had spines and a small roach army waiting for him. When he encountered me at my base, he might have been able to win regardless. Here's the replay. I know I haven't got the best sense of mechanics yet, but I'm certainly optimistic. Still, I'm thinking his was a not so well done 4-gate. + Show Spoiler +Yeah, I'm basically 7 roach rushing my games until I level out somewhere. :3c
I just watched the replay and this protoss did not know how to play at all, he pylon blocked himself, waaaay too late core etc.. He did not even manage to macro off of one base..
I dont have much comments for your play as I am protoss, but that was one horrible 4 gate...:D
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Last 100 times I got 4gated, the toss got handed a handfull of EMP and rape.
Good luck.
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On November 26 2010 13:00 yandere991 wrote: I don't know why most people still think protoss is alone with the "highly effective yet easy to pull off" build. When off racing as terran in custom games despite not knowing a clear build order I can beat protoss at 1700 rating (a bit above my level) by only knowing that 2 reactor-ed raxxes with a scouting factory and 2 tech lab-ed starports will net me wins against protosses much much much better than me. Totally agreed. The same holds true for the 2-3 thor or the 8 thor scv-repair push as zerg. Before I knew how to properly respond to that I lost 2-3 games against low-apm scrubs and I bet there are many "ok players" which will lose to that. Sc2 has so many hard counters that you can easily lose against strats you haven't encountered before.
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On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 07:22 Patriot.dlk wrote:On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:I just fail at counting the number of LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime wannabees in this thread. This is the protoss equivalent of 6 pooling next 100 people who comes across you on the ladder. It helps nothing except mastering on 4 warpgate build. Why would you post this? A lot of good good posts defended this challenge with structured arguments that you just ignored. As many others have said it's a great way to practice. You will use gateway units in combat over and over while you have to macro out new ones... Useful skill to have indeed. Macroing out of 1 base is child's play. Real macro comes in the game after 3rd base (which is the exact point that my macro starts slipping). And, like I said above, these skills are useful after mid diamond and will turn you into LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime-ish players (If that guy knows how to macro, so do I).
I love how ignorant players like this guy are calling players like HongUn bad, even players like IdrA have given HongUn nods. TL makes me shake my head sometimes .
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On November 26 2010 20:43 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:On November 26 2010 07:22 Patriot.dlk wrote:On November 26 2010 07:13 Metalwing wrote:I just fail at counting the number of LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime wannabees in this thread. This is the protoss equivalent of 6 pooling next 100 people who comes across you on the ladder. It helps nothing except mastering on 4 warpgate build. Why would you post this? A lot of good good posts defended this challenge with structured arguments that you just ignored. As many others have said it's a great way to practice. You will use gateway units in combat over and over while you have to macro out new ones... Useful skill to have indeed. Macroing out of 1 base is child's play. Real macro comes in the game after 3rd base (which is the exact point that my macro starts slipping). And, like I said above, these skills are useful after mid diamond and will turn you into LowestSkillS-ClassPlayerPrime-ish players (If that guy knows how to macro, so do I). I love how ignorant players like this guy are calling players like HongUn bad, even players like IdrA have given HongUn nods. TL makes me shake my head sometimes .
I didn't call him bad, but I doubt there is any single player in the S-Class pool which is less skilled than him. I don't remember HongUn winning a macro game, at least in PvZ. He's mostly cheese-orientated and I don't think he'll win a game if he can't get enough advantage from cheesing.
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Reserved for results. Switched races to join in on the challenge. About 20 games in and already demoted down from gold. Feeling a little trolled.
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On November 26 2010 17:47 melquiades wrote:Fuck this challenge. I am sick unto death of facing the endless stream of dicks who can do nothing but 4-gate. And now this! Encouraging them! It doesn't matter that it's easy to brush off, it's just so fucking boring to see it time and time again, and as a Protoss player I feel embarrassed/cheapened/dirty. I think I'll start my own personal challenge to BM every dick who 4-gates me, and in a unique and startling way with each incarnation. I hope you all fail
while i have nothing against 4gating, i would like to see this.
pics for proof or youre not cool enough
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4Gate is effective because the vast majority of players only think in terms of 1 huge ball of units vs another huge ball of units. There is plenty of things you can do to "mess" with the 4gater, making him chase harassing units away, parking some units in one corner and base trading when he pushes. There no rule that says you must take his army face-on. Obviously thats all easier-said-than done but fuck it, at least you have have fun trying differing things and you will inject your own variety into the "boring" 4gate.
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Russian Federation20 Posts
I don't understand how 4 gate could be boring. How does it come that micro-intensive games are boring? And they are not even remotely the same in my case. There are so many ways to do this strategy and each time you get different responses. It's fun actually.
To people who don't like this challenge in particular and 4gp in general: why do you think that everyone should play like you want them to? This is bullshit. It's like if some chess players would claim a King's Gambit (for example) as "no skill needed opening which would teach you nothing" and insult everyone who plays it.
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why would you challenge protoss players to do what they're already doing?
it's like if i challenged my friends to a breathing contest.
the problem with 4gating is if you just do it, you don't get good at the game. i've seen people on ladder who can execute a perfect 4gate, but as soon as i hold it off (which isn't that hard to do), they start playing like they're in bronze league because they never actually learned how to play their race; they only learned now to play a single all-in build and hope for the best.
so have fun being bad at the game i guess.
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So would that game on blue storm where boxer went marine medics in a tvt into wraiths be considered cheese?
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United States522 Posts
In honor of the 100 4 gate challange; I will do the 100 2 gate challenge by massing zealots and killing all those 4 gaters before it gets online... thanks!
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On November 27 2010 02:50 SOB_Maj_Brian wrote: In honor of the 100 4 gate challange; I will do the 100 2 gate challenge by massing zealots and killing all those 4 gaters before it gets online... thanks! I got diamond easily on an NA account only doing 2gate in PvP, because i knew for a near fact that every protoss is going to 4gate or colossi.
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Russian Federation20 Posts
On November 27 2010 02:44 universalwill wrote: why would you challenge protoss players to do what they're already doing?
it's like if i challenged my friends to a breathing contest.
the problem with 4gating is if you just do it, you don't get good at the game. i've seen people on ladder who can execute a perfect 4gate, but as soon as i hold it off (which isn't that hard to do), they start playing like they're in bronze league because they never actually learned how to play their race; they only learned now to play a single all-in build and hope for the best.
so have fun being bad at the game i guess.
Would you please be so kind to answer the following simple questions?
1. What do you mean by "being good at game"? 2. Is is true that 4 gating doesn't include any aspect of the game that relates to "being good at game"? 3. You say it isn't hard to hold off a 4 gate push. Are you sure that you can hold off it versus Huk, Tyler, Genius, Tester, etc.?
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Too bad 80% of all protoss players prolly already have 100+ games of 4 gating.
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Dear OP, as a 2500 Zerg player I sincerely thank you for increasing the popularity of the 4-gate. I don't think I've lost to a 4-gate in over a month ;D
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Great initiative, would be even cooler if you had a good but a little more exotic build in this challenge.
And lol to the people saying it will not work on higher levels or that they can counter it easily, GSL high enough for you?
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i like how people still think that 4gate now is the same as 4gate pre-patch. 4kg died that day.
that's not to say that 4gate isn't effective still, but the warpgate delay now changed it too much to be as feared as it was then
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Doing this, I've been Ranked 1/2 Silver for a while and I figure I might as well gtfo right?
Start of 100 4-Gate Challenge ----------------------------- Dotemup-Protoss Silver - 1588 (205 Bonus) W/L - 154/145
20% ----------------------------- Dotemup-Protoss Silver - 1859 (58 Bonus) W/L - 168/151
30% (24 Games in Promoted) ----------------------------- Dotemup-Protoss Gold - 1851 (0 Bonus) W/L - 177/152
50% (47 Games in Promoted) ----------------------------- Dotemup-Protoss Plat - 1802 (0 Bonus) W/L - 189/160
Replay Pack Link - When Finished >.>
Edit: Added 50% stats! Side note: I've been watching replays of my games... man I do a lot of dumb things. And I've been varying the 4 gate slightly each game to see what works where and I've found a lot of weird timings. All for fun though!
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Nice Dotemup! :D GOGO Diamond lol
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let me make a thread about a 6 pool challenge. yeah if i win i outplayed the guy.
of course i can drone up after and pretend its not an cheese.
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lol Dotemup, that's awesome
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On November 27 2010 03:07 chadissilent wrote: Dear OP, as a 2500 Zerg player I sincerely thank you for increasing the popularity of the 4-gate. I don't think I've lost to a 4-gate in over a month ;D
That makes us two 2200 z here:D
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On November 28 2010 23:30 eksert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 03:07 chadissilent wrote: Dear OP, as a 2500 Zerg player I sincerely thank you for increasing the popularity of the 4-gate. I don't think I've lost to a 4-gate in over a month ;D That makes us two 2200 z here:D
Congratulations. I do not think protosses at your level is going to do this challenge anyways so..
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Sounds like some fun. I won't be in the first five but may give it a go and see how I'm doing after twent or so games.
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On November 28 2010 23:30 eksert wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 03:07 chadissilent wrote: Dear OP, as a 2500 Zerg player I sincerely thank you for increasing the popularity of the 4-gate. I don't think I've lost to a 4-gate in over a month ;D That makes us two 2200 z here:D
100% missing of the point, transitioning into posting about how good you believe you are?
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managed to korean 4 gate a 1200 win 1900 diamond terran the other day, with pylon outside the base, AND he had a bunker. Burned down the depot with 2 zealots and 2 stalkers and just ran past the bunker and killed workers, it was hilarious from my standpoint, just kept doing that over and over slowly reducing his workers with each 4 pack.
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Just an idea. Why not to do a challange where you play 100 games picking 1 specific build and do it consitantly throughout the 100 games. Then you will improve your skills significantly. Can be T/P/Z 6 pool, 3 rax, 4 gate... Anything really
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I actually have self respect and honor to not 4 gate. UNLESS I get cheesed and fend off said cheese.
Not only that, it's just plain stupid to go 4 gating without any intel on what the opponent is doing.
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On November 29 2010 01:44 djtopa wrote: Just an idea. Why not to do a challange where you play 100 games picking 1 specific build and do it consitantly throughout the 100 games. Then you will improve your skills significantly. Can be T/P/Z 6 pool, 3 rax, 4 gate... Anything really
Um... Thats what the OP in this thread is doing..... Why did you mention it like it was your idea?
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On November 29 2010 02:17 SichuanPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2010 01:44 djtopa wrote: Just an idea. Why not to do a challange where you play 100 games picking 1 specific build and do it consitantly throughout the 100 games. Then you will improve your skills significantly. Can be T/P/Z 6 pool, 3 rax, 4 gate... Anything really Um... Thats what the OP in this thread is doing..... Why did you mention it like it was your idea?
I get what he was trying to say, just wants it to be a challenge for multiple races builds to "compete" even though that's not really what it's about.
OP just made it for 4-Gate (obv protoss only)
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4 Gate is suicide against a good Zerg unless it's Steppes/Blistering. 3 gate expand all day every day.
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Watching replays and such of people doing 4 gates vs Terran, it seems that going 4 gate and just getting a robo to get an observer so you can warp in and bypass a Ts ramp defenses is definitely worth the slightly fewer units you can get. Don't even want to think of what a warp prism in an unwatched corner might do. Bring in 4 units, warp in 4 more in a corner, chrono your gates, then push. All the while keeping 3 sentries at your base+wall-in. Going to have to try this.
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Canada13372 Posts
I don't like to 4gate all the time since I want to learn a really stable and effectie opening. Right now it seems to be a gate expand. Though in PvP its almost necessary to get 3 gate with forge and cannon if he 4 gates you
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On November 30 2010 00:36 Sm3agol wrote: Watching replays and such of people doing 4 gates vs Terran, it seems that going 4 gate and just getting a robo to get an observer so you can warp in and bypass a Ts ramp defenses is definitely worth the slightly fewer units you can get. Don't even want to think of what a warp prism in an unwatched corner might do. Bring in 4 units, warp in 4 more in a corner, chrono your gates, then push. All the while keeping 3 sentries at your base+wall-in. Going to have to try this.
awful build because it is dependent on there being an unwatched cornor, any good player has buildings so he can see his entire main. That is just basic play right there.
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On November 30 2010 00:40 jamesr12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 00:36 Sm3agol wrote: Watching replays and such of people doing 4 gates vs Terran, it seems that going 4 gate and just getting a robo to get an observer so you can warp in and bypass a Ts ramp defenses is definitely worth the slightly fewer units you can get. Don't even want to think of what a warp prism in an unwatched corner might do. Bring in 4 units, warp in 4 more in a corner, chrono your gates, then push. All the while keeping 3 sentries at your base+wall-in. Going to have to try this. awful build because it is dependent on there being an unwatched cornor, any good player has buildings so he can see his entire main. That is just basic play right there. Not really. First of all, i see really good players leave undefended corners ALL the time. And I watch a crap load of replays, streams, VODs, etc. Of 2500+ point players. They do cover the normal corners, like the xelnaga corner, and metal corner, etc. but they are covering the pylon warp-in corners, not any corner a prism could squeeze in. Second, setup time for a warp prism is about a second. Drop 4 units, immediately warp in 4 more. That would take about 3-4 seconds total for the opponent to be there killing you. There is really no way for the response to be quick enough to shut down the initial 8, it would just prevent anything else from coming in. Assuming you're not dropping your units next to his standing army. Third he wouldn't have time to cover his main in buildings yet. If you went 2 gate then robo, then 2 more gates, then you'd almost have the prism in place by the time the 4th gate finished. A T would have about 3 supply depots and 2 or 3 production buildings by then. On some of the bigger base maps like steppes, you wouldn't even be close to covering every corner.
I haven't tried this yet, and probably won't for a while though, so feel free to nitpick away.
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On November 27 2010 02:44 universalwill wrote: why would you challenge protoss players to do what they're already doing?
it's like if i challenged my friends to a breathing contest.
the problem with 4gating is if you just do it, you don't get good at the game. i've seen people on ladder who can execute a perfect 4gate, but as soon as i hold it off (which isn't that hard to do), they start playing like they're in bronze league because they never actually learned how to play their race; they only learned now to play a single all-in build and hope for the best.
so have fun being bad at the game i guess.
While I have been matched up with my share of scrubs who fail to proceed after their gimmicky build was stopped it's not due to them getting the wrong kind of practice doing their build, it's just them being bad.
Since getting educated about tvz from artosis in GSL 3 I started doing 2 rax pressure every match against zerg. Why would I not learn how to transition into something else after I have done this?
TL:DR if you execute a build you also get practice transitioning from it, some players are just bad at strategy games and learns very slow
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On November 30 2010 01:04 Patriot.dlk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2010 02:44 universalwill wrote: why would you challenge protoss players to do what they're already doing?
it's like if i challenged my friends to a breathing contest.
the problem with 4gating is if you just do it, you don't get good at the game. i've seen people on ladder who can execute a perfect 4gate, but as soon as i hold it off (which isn't that hard to do), they start playing like they're in bronze league because they never actually learned how to play their race; they only learned now to play a single all-in build and hope for the best.
so have fun being bad at the game i guess. While I have been matched up with my share of scrubs who fail to proceed after their gimmicky build was stopped it's not due to them getting the wrong kind of practice doing their build, it's just them being bad. Since getting educated about tvz from artosis in GSL 3 I started doing 2 rax pressure every match against zerg. Why would I not learn how to transition into something else after I have done this? TL:DR if you execute a build you also get practice transitioning from it, some players are just bad at strategy games and learns very slow This. Some/most people just never learn from their mistakes, or just never get better at all. I see this all the time playing FPS games. I'll play a game 6 months, and be right at the level of some people I know that have been playing for 4 years. A year and a half later, I'm worlds better than they are, and they still have barely, if at all, gotten better.
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I've seen similar challenges to this during the beta and even convinced other players to do similar things with "tried and tested builds" (What really was during the beta?) to get some concentrate numbers on their viability.
Strangely enough this isn't as 'detrimental' to your play as some TLers are making it seem, as Patriot.dlk mentioned gaming experience with a specific build will also serve as practicing how to transition from it even in the event of it not going the way you planned it.
The important thing here is "games played" that increases your own comfort level with the medium (SC2 in this case) which will lead to innovation later. You can practice A LOT of fundamentals for an average amateur player by doing a challenge like this, which can lead to broadening your mechanics as you are able to handle more multitasking later on.
I'm not a great player but I can honestly say I've become a lot more versatile and understanding about conceptual things in SC2 just by practicing a few singular builds to the point where I got the hang and feel of this game and sharpening my early game timings (i.e. when to send building probes/scvs or gas vs pool timing) and hotkeying different buildings for macro and practicing different control group schemes to make the transition over to this 'newer' game.
TL:DR - It can be especially beneficial for less-than pro players to take on challenges like this because it increases their awareness and comfort level with the game, creating a foundation for better play later. i.e. An Artist can't make beautiful work until they understand how pencil/paper/paint will interact with their canvas.
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I don't think "four gate challenge" is a good name. After all, 4 gate is pretty much the opposite of a challenge. Maybe we should rename the thread the "four gate grind" but most protoss players do that anyway.
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Updated. Over 2000 now .. 4 WGate is a really good strat with LOTS of variations I have discovered.
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I've gone 6-4 in my first 10 games, and I've already learnt a lot as a Silver player.
1) I know when to Chronoboost, exactly. 2) I'm learning what my opponent's early-game production capabilities are. 3) My timing has improved. 4) My micro, my weakest area, is improving. 5) My target sense is improving. 6) My force fields are loads better. 7) I'm better at warping in units while battling.
There's probably more, but it seems to me that doing this for 100 games will improve some of my weakest mechanics (micro, Force Fields, knowledge of the opponent) immensely. Great challenge: I think any Toss who's not at really high level or already 4-Gates every game could learn something from it.
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this is awesome.. i've been playing against nothing but 4 gates and raping the fuck out of protosses all across the ladder.. maybe i should play 300 games and dedicate the 1/3 that is protoss to this thread of me raping the shit out of 4 gate...
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I already 4gated allot so might as well join you guys.
Name/ID: Qwix Division: Platinum Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 903 /959 Bonus pool (67-48 win/loss) Points X Games into challenge: - Final score: - Replay pack: -
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Thought I'd give a update to keep the topic alive and let you know how I am doing!
Having pretty good succes, beating some pretty high diamonds and feeling way less anxious to play as I have a set plan.
I haven't really decided how all in I want to go. I quite often get to play a long drawn game after my initial push as I often produce probes without thinking about it.
Having some problems against T's that bunker up, either after I foolishly let them scout my gates or a blind bunker, perhaps I am just too scared to atack them.
Name/ID: graxx Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1176 (850 Bonus pool) Points 24 Games into challenge: 1497 Final score: Unknown Replay pack: end of the year I hope
oh yeah.. I get quite a bit of BM :p I don't see how 3 gate robo into massing colossus in PvP is more skilled then this.
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6 4 gates in a row today. OP is a wanker.
Edit: forgot to mention that I asked my opponents too if they had visited this thread -.- 3 said they were taking part 3 didn't reply and called me a scrub.
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On December 01 2010 09:20 graxx wrote: Thought I'd give a update to keep the topic alive and let you know how I am doing!
Having pretty good succes, beating some pretty high diamonds and feeling way less anxious to play as I have a set plan.
I haven't really decided how all in I want to go. I quite often get to play a long drawn game after my initial push as I often produce probes without thinking about it.
Having some problems against T's that bunker up, either after I foolishly let them scout my gates or a blind bunker, perhaps I am just too scared to atack them.
Name/ID: graxx Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1176 (850 Bonus pool) Points 24 Games into challenge: 1497 Final score: Unknown Replay pack: end of the year I hope
oh yeah.. I get quite a bit of BM :p I don't see how 3 gate robo into massing colossus in PvP is more skilled then this.
Actually bunkers are pretty weak I find :p I usually try to forcefield so scvs cant repair
or just walk past them
2065 now :D 4 Gate is GOOOOOOOD
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On December 01 2010 12:37 vol_ wrote: 6 4 gates in a row today. OP is a wanker.
Edit: forgot to mention that I asked my opponents too if they had visited this thread -.- 3 said they were taking part 3 didn't reply and called me a scrub.
You just got served
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last 10 games against toss they tried to 4gate me 8 times. won 8 out of 8
i should really tahnk you for this "challenge". tosses all around are trying to do this now, and i'm really thankfull. It's so ridiculously easy to hold it of with fast expo.
and the fact, that toss lategame is the hardest part, males me wanna giggle all the time i see someone 4gating.
i really appreciate it, thanks a lot.
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Reading this thread, I felt like that the 4-gate build seems to be some sort of addicting drug or vice
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i can't believe that many people are actually taking up the 'challenge'...
I feel like this is just the state of protoss on ladder... They usually 4gate or try to void ray.
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i would like to see more challenges like this, but as 50 games instead of 100. 50 is just about right to learn a strat. 100 is excessive
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"Mommy WOW! I can Fourgate now!!!"
I should try and find the time to execute a single strategy 100 times within a reasonable time frame. I need to play more.
X.X
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Mankeyz reporting in.
Starting rank, Unplaced
(6 100 4 gate challenges)
Ending rank 2857 Diamond
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On December 02 2010 14:55 Mankeyz wrote: Mankeyz reporting in.
Starting rank, Unplaced
(6 100 4 gate challenges)
Ending rank 2857 Diamond
LoL u serious ?? wow
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It's a good strategy, and if you're good enough to hold it off then you will profit
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United States4796 Posts
On December 02 2010 14:55 Mankeyz wrote: Mankeyz reporting in.
Starting rank, Unplaced
(6 100 4 gate challenges)
Ending rank 2857 Diamond
If this is true this is awesome.
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On December 02 2010 15:06 DivinO wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 14:55 Mankeyz wrote: Mankeyz reporting in.
Starting rank, Unplaced
(6 100 4 gate challenges)
Ending rank 2857 Diamond If this is true this is awesome.
He had something like 2500 back in early nov. so I doubt it.
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^ I've been doing the 4 gate challenge since I realized it can make players with no skill do well on ladder ( which happens to be well before this thread was made).
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wish sum1 would do this already lol wanna see results
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Make a 100 6 pool challenge.
Or a 100 marine + SCV a-... Wait, don't do that one, it actually works against even good players.
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yea totally, it says 2858
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played protoss on a smurf account, 4gating all the way
currently 16-3, playing 2k+ diamonds. lol.
imo 4gate should be nerfed somehow, you can fairly transition out of it if your opponent builds 10 spines/mass bunkers etc. and even so ive pushed into a zerg base when he had 6 spines.. just ridiculous
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On December 02 2010 19:25 mGMUSE wrote: played protoss on a smurf account, 4gating all the way
currently 16-3, playing 2k+ diamonds. lol.
imo 4gate should be nerfed somehow, you can fairly transition out of it if your opponent builds 10 spines/mass bunkers etc. and even so ive pushed into a zerg base when he had 6 spines.. just ridiculous
See this is the proble, this is the reason why gateway units are so pathetically weak. If they were any stronger the 4gate would just be even more powerful.
The 4gate is easy to stop these days, but still its way too powerful when done right. I am a protoss player and im all in favour of nerfing the 4gate, but buffing the stalker/zealot/sentrys.
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[QUOTE]On December 02 2010 14:55 Mankeyz wrote: Mankeyz reporting in.
Starting rank, Unplaced
(6 100 4 gate challenges)
Ending rank 2857 Diamond[/QUOTE
Hmm if true impressive,
but you need to provide 100 replays or at least prove that you in fact are makeys
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I don't have time to do all 100 games, but I decided to try this strat consistently on my garbage account. It's pretty devastating at the upper plat, lower diamond levels.. I've won like 80% of my matches so far.
I did reach some hurdles mostly from other 4 gating protoss, or protoss who really know how to use their sentries. Also, terrans who FE and put up a planetary fortress gave me a bit of trouble, or held out long enough to use the early Thor build.
The 4gate I mostly use is the one mentioned earlier, where you stop probe production at around 18-20 probes and skip on the second gas.
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On December 02 2010 20:59 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 14:55 Mankeyz wrote: Mankeyz reporting in.
Starting rank, Unplaced
(6 100 4 gate challenges)
Ending rank 2857 Diamond Hmm if true impressive, but you need to provide 100 replays or at least prove that you in fact are makeys
If he did provide you with 100 replays, would you check all of them?
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Alright, I've completed the challenge. Doing this in PvP is really good and much more fun than the boring one base war of the worlds type games. I had pretty decent success with this in PvT since many terrans are extremely greedy (e.g. expanding and teching to starport off of one regular rax marine production with just one bunker), but it's very hit or miss as any terran that gets a good number of early units should be able to defend, even when expanding. In PvZ however, I really dislike the build since roaches are so good against gateway units and most zergs are pretty good at stopping this build, so it only works well on certain maps.
I've gained 280 points, of which somewhere about 150 are from bonus pool, which I think is quite impressive when considering that I played with my weakest race and had little experience with 4 gate builds.
Name/ID: drunkenJedi.346 League: Diamond Points before: 1989 (11 bonus pool) Points after 20 games: 2119 (0 bonus pool) Final score: 2268 (0 bonus pool) Link to replay pack: [url blocked]
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Drunken Jedi! Number 1 , good :D ¨ Which race is your strongest?
Thanks for doing the challenge, I'll place you on top after reviewing the replays
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On December 03 2010 03:46 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 20:59 haegN wrote:On December 02 2010 14:55 Mankeyz wrote: Mankeyz reporting in.
Starting rank, Unplaced
(6 100 4 gate challenges)
Ending rank 2857 Diamond Hmm if true impressive, but you need to provide 100 replays or at least prove that you in fact are makeys If he did provide you with 100 replays, would you check all of them?
i will check all of them cos i wanna know how the hell he can win 90% of the BO against every race.
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On December 02 2010 19:25 mGMUSE wrote: played protoss on a smurf account, 4gating all the way
currently 16-3, playing 2k+ diamonds. lol.
imo 4gate should be nerfed somehow, you can fairly transition out of it if your opponent builds 10 spines/mass bunkers etc. and even so ive pushed into a zerg base when he had 6 spines.. just ridiculous
Does not need to be nerfed. It only beats the poor zerg who doesn't know how to spread creep and throw down crawlers.
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i love 4gate.
Stay classy TL :D
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All right, I'll actually buy a new account to try this. Will link next week.
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On December 09 2010 01:53 OutlaW- wrote: All right, I'll actually buy a new account to try this. Will link next week.
:O That's pretty hardcore.
I have a secondary account for my wife.. but i bombed its rating down to bronze from diamond so she could use it.. trouble is it doesn't win or lose any points in ladder matches now.. so its kind of stuck
(even with 43 wins in a row)
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On December 09 2010 02:03 Scrimpton wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 01:53 OutlaW- wrote: All right, I'll actually buy a new account to try this. Will link next week. :O That's pretty hardcore. I have a secondary account for my wife.. but i bombed its rating down to bronze from diamond so she could use it.. trouble is it doesn't win or lose any points in ladder matches now.. so its kind of stuck (even with 43 wins in a row)
after 43 wins in a row with no change in ladder... i'd contact blizzard support.
unless she likes where she's at and can stomp people, in which case just let it be
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On December 09 2010 00:54 haegN wrote:Drunken Jedi! Number 1 , good :D ¨ Which race is your strongest? Thanks for doing the challenge, I'll place you on top after reviewing the replays Thanks. My main race is zerg, but I did play random for quite a while, so I'm decent with all the races.
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On December 03 2010 03:46 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2010 20:59 haegN wrote:On December 02 2010 14:55 Mankeyz wrote: Mankeyz reporting in.
Starting rank, Unplaced
(6 100 4 gate challenges)
Ending rank 2857 Diamond Hmm if true impressive, but you need to provide 100 replays or at least prove that you in fact are makeys If he did provide you with 100 replays, would you check all of them?
I will vouge for him, kid 4 gates basicaly every game and hes very good at it -Jash
edits: Im bad at typing
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4gate isnt even strong anymore. so easy to prevent when spotted.
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On December 09 2010 06:26 HitStarcraft wrote: 4gate isnt even strong anymore. so easy to prevent when spotted. I have never had success with it. Only a +1 4 gate push with lots of sentries vs zerg.
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Mankeyz isn't lying. All he does is 4gate. That is seriously what he has done to get 2900 diamond. At this point he has people blind countering his 4 gate every time, just because they assume he will do it every game. Just watch any top diamond player's stream and you will see Mankeyz 4gating them.
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On December 09 2010 06:44 Gooey wrote: Mankeyz isn't lying. All he does is 4gate. That is seriously what he has done to get 2900 diamond. At this point he has people blind countering his 4 gate every time, just because they assume he will do it every game. Just watch any top diamond player's stream and you will see Mankeyz 4gating them.
that's pretty hilarious if true.. blind counter 4 gate if you get mankeyz haha.
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shhhhh. i can't win games if everyone knows I'm doing it.
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If you are one of the few that thinks 4-gate is "easy to stop" then you're just bad at it. 4-gate never gets easy to hold. the higher and better you get, the higher and better the tosses get at doing it.
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On December 09 2010 07:18 danl9rm wrote: If you are one of the few that thinks 4-gate is "easy to stop" then you're just bad at it. 4-gate never gets easy to hold. the higher and better you get, the higher and better the tosses get at doing it.
I agree with this. I am a 2000ish diamond playing P and T and I 4gate for easy wins when I get tired. And as T I never do less than double bunker PvT if I see indications of 4 gate. It is stoppable. It takes micro, good solid builds, and great scouting. Honestly though, I've never stopped a >2400 4 gate of the few I've had to battle. Good players make extra units appear like freaking Ninjalkers or Samurailots. Japanese units are better.
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I'm a platinum Zerg right now, and 4 gates are hard to deal with but I actually like playing against it alot. Feels soo damn good when all those roaches pop just in time to defend the rush, I'm about 1800 plat and I have only tried P once. It would be kinda funny to see what effect it had on my ladder pts lol. And I kind of want to try P out once
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Name/ID: ThePedophile.321 Division: Bronze Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 238 (1651 Bonus pool) 15-23 Points 39 Games into challenge: 850(bronze)>651(silver) (1270 Bonus pool) 47-33 Final score: Not finsihed yet. 32-10 so far. I'm still bronze, I should get promoted soon, its puttingme against mid - high gold opponents right now, all are getting spanked. This is fun Replay pack: Coming soon.
I started a new account a few days ago, I was platinum Protoss. I played Zerg from the getgo, and I can't do it, I can't even beat bronze level players as zerg. So I lost about 20 games in a row and switched to Protoss, im in the very bottom of bronze, climbing my way up, pulverizing everyone, hopefully i'll get promoted but I should start playing platinum and low diamonds soon, so it will even out ill start losing. but even after a 16 game win streak i wasnt promoted. Update: Promoted to Silver 12/11/10 =).
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Bawzonurjaw United States. December 09 2010 12:46. Posts 24 PM Profile Quote # Name/ID: ThePedophile.321
I'd recommend using your free name change... hopefully you haven't already
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Keep it up my brethren Protaus Bauses. Post more of your glorious victories for all to see.
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Some glorious Bastard should
LIVESTREAM THIS.
It would be interesting to see the player improve as time goes by, and really this could all be done within a short few afternoons.
I'd definitely watch whilst at work :D
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Hi guys,
I've been reading this site for a few weeks now, and have just decided to register and try taking part in this challenge. My Husband has taught me most of the basics such as hotkeys, and has started me on the road to having somewhat efficient macro (I try not to go above 1000 minerals in a game, and usually manage it quite well, for a beginner)
Anyway, I've heard that depth beats breadth whilst you are taking those initial steps towards learning the game so I figure here is as good a place to start as any.
I'm aiming to stream all of my games, and I'm just in the process of setting up the stream. I've taken a look at Livestream, and whilst the procaster tool is easy to use, it seems like Ustream or Own3d (i think that's what it's called) would be better, but i have little experience with either, and if you are somewhat familiar with UK internet, we get pretty terrible upload speeds compared to download.
This post is getting much longer than expected, so I'll wrap it up with this last request.
If you have any experience with Ustream,own3d or getting good results with Livestream, and don't mind spending a small amount of time helping me test and set up my stream i'd be very grateful.
ProtossGirl 932 on the EU server.
Edit: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/114125-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrant
Replay of game one Although I'm not sure if it "counts" since the Opponent left before I could get all 4 gates up.
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4 gate is fairly easily scoutable and good micro / some sunkens will stop it immediately. To be honest, 4 gate (well.. depending on position and map) is what I'm most glad to see when scouting a toss base. Stargates, FE, etc strike much more fear into my heart
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On December 09 2010 07:27 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 07:18 danl9rm wrote: If you are one of the few that thinks 4-gate is "easy to stop" then you're just bad at it. 4-gate never gets easy to hold. the higher and better you get, the higher and better the tosses get at doing it. I agree with this. I am a 2000ish diamond playing P and T and I 4gate for easy wins when I get tired. And as T I never do less than double bunker PvT if I see indications of 4 gate. It is stoppable. It takes micro, good solid builds, and great scouting. Honestly though, I've never stopped a >2400 4 gate of the few I've had to battle. Good players make extra units appear like freaking Ninjalkers or Samurailots. Japanese units are better.
I can only comment on what I know to be true about your post, and that is the bolded section.
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On December 09 2010 12:55 TLurker wrote:Show nested quote + Bawzonurjaw United States. December 09 2010 12:46. Posts 24 PM Profile Quote # Name/ID: ThePedophile.321 I'd recommend using your free name change... hopefully you haven't already
Why? He is ThePedophile and rapes you with his toss. I tought blizzard screened for these types of names.
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On December 09 2010 20:53 Mankeyz wrote: Keep it up my brethren Protaus Bauses. Post more of your glorious victories for all to see. you're a fucking idiot.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On December 09 2010 22:19 ProtossGirl wrote:-snip- I'm aiming to stream all of my games, and I'm just in the process of setting up the stream. I've taken a look at Livestream, and whilst the procaster tool is easy to use, it seems like Ustream or Own3d (i think that's what it's called) would be better, but i have little experience with either, and if you are somewhat familiar with UK internet, we get pretty terrible upload speeds compared to download. This post is getting much longer than expected, so I'll wrap it up with this last request. If you have any experience with Ustream,own3d or getting good results with Livestream, and don't mind spending a small amount of time helping me test and set up my stream i'd be very grateful. ProtossGirl 932 on the EU server. Edit: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/114125-1v1-protoss-zerg-delta-quadrantReplay of game one Although I'm not sure if it "counts" since the Opponent left before I could get all 4 gates up.
Definitely check out this sub-forum http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=46
There are alot of streaming tutorials and guides there. Good luck :D
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This is an awesome idea, I'm going to do it as soon my break from school starts :D :D
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On December 12 2010 19:01 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2010 07:27 Sleight wrote:On December 09 2010 07:18 danl9rm wrote: If you are one of the few that thinks 4-gate is "easy to stop" then you're just bad at it. 4-gate never gets easy to hold. the higher and better you get, the higher and better the tosses get at doing it. I agree with this. I am a 2000ish diamond playing P and T and I 4gate for easy wins when I get tired. And as T I never do less than double bunker PvT if I see indications of 4 gate. It is stoppable. It takes micro, good solid builds, and great scouting. Honestly though, I've never stopped a >2400 4 gate of the few I've had to battle. Good players make extra units appear like freaking Ninjalkers or Samurailots. Japanese units are better. I can only comment on what I know to be true about your post, and that is the bolded section. By the way, the 4gate in which you only get 1 gas and add in 3 super fast Gateways, then get a Zealot off each before the warp gate research is done, and then immediately move out and warp in 4 Stalkers, and then 4 more Zealots from the proxy pylon near their base, hits with insane amount of units at just after 6 minutes. It can be really frustrating to stop if you're used to poorly executed 4gates... just need to spam spines. =/
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Who will take silver position?
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On December 09 2010 12:46 Bawzonurjaw wrote: Name/ID: ThePedophile.321
wtf.. Blizzard didn't ban you ?
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FadedProbe.622
First! I haven't been doing strictly 4 gates, but as a Protoss player who was 2000 Platinum (Without 4-gating at all, and about 200 1v1 wins). By mixing heavy gateway pressure I was able to jump to 2200 Diamond in 2 weeks. I've won 27 of my last 40 games. Most of them were DT Rushes with 4 gate support, or 3 gates into a Stargate (for Voidrays and line of sight) adding a 4th gateway for when I was warping into their base. I feel like just by trying early pressure it has at least helped me win some of the faster games I would have normally lost, its a safer and more flexible style, which makes sense. SC2 is mostly a game of aggression and that many gateways gives you a lot of leeway in how you want to execute that aggression.
This is the safe hand that prevents that poker feeling from completely invading the game, at least for me as a Protoss player thus far
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On December 26 2010 21:02 Wrongspeedy wrote: FadedProbe.622
First! I haven't been doing strictly 4 gates, but as a Protoss player who was 2000 Platinum (Without 4-gating at all, and about 200 1v1 wins). By mixing heavy gateway pressure I was able to jump to 2200 Diamond in 2 weeks. I've won 27 of my last 40 games. Most of them were DT Rushes with 4 gate support, or 3 gates into a Stargate (for Voidrays and line of sight) adding a 4th gateway for when I was warping into their base. I feel like just by trying early pressure it has at least helped me win some of the faster games I would have normally lost, its a safer and more flexible style, which makes sense. SC2 is mostly a game of aggression and that many gateways gives you a lot of leeway in how you want to execute that aggression.
This is the safe hand that prevents that poker feeling from completely invading the game, at least for me as a Protoss player thus far
Gateway units are considered stronger and stronger by the day it seems..
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so this is the reason why i have encountered so much 4 gating
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one cannot simply 4gate his way into mordor/diamond, QQ!!!!111
sorry but... i really had to lawl after reading one quarter of the posts. ill try to build hobbits from my gateways now ^^
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I've been able to refine the 1gas 4gate down to this:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9217/4gate.jpg
Can probably still shave around 5-10 seconds off that, but even like that it's insanely powerful, I don't think anyone below hiiiiigh diamond should be able to defend against that kind of a rush properly.
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First time poster, but long time lurker. I would like to say that it took a fair bit of discipline to do the same build 100 times in a row. It was actually kind of boring, but terribly effective. I won 63 out of 100 games.
ID=substantiAL started challenge 12/28/2010 points before challenge = 2291 Diamond
ended challenge 1/3/2011 points after challenge = 2817 Diamond
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On January 03 2011 23:16 Shikyo wrote:I've been able to refine the 1gas 4gate down to this: http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9217/4gate.jpgCan probably still shave around 5-10 seconds off that, but even like that it's insanely powerful, I don't think anyone below hiiiiigh diamond should be able to defend against that kind of a rush properly.
Indeed you can. Try chrono'ing your WG consistently, get 3 chronos on probes to start, move your probe out once your first stalker finishes, and only make two pylons before your proxy while cutting probes. I can consistently get my first warp-in at around 5:50~5:55
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Australia8532 Posts
lol 100 games is a shit load.. i am sure it is effective throughout the ladder - it is a viable build i am so interested to see HOW much people improve though haha great idea man..
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I thought it would be helpful to post the link to the build I used. It's a one gas "optimized" 4 gate.
Four Gate All In
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Name/ID: Squeek.393 Division: Bronze Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 639(1781 Bonus pool) Points 0 Games into challenge: Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Can't be bothered. Gonna start this now though, I'm keen to see what happens, and I'm not using my main account for a reason.
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Hey guys, first time caller, long time listener so to speak.
Been doing this challenge for about 50 games, I lost track of the piece of paper where I originally wrote down my stats but I shall try and find it! Having reasonable success so far.
I just wanted to ask, is the 1 gas all-in varient (where you get 6 stalkers 1 zealot at aroud 6:00) viable against Terran? (and to a lesser extent zerg). I have found that if they scan me before it hits, they throw up a bunker or 2 behind their wall and there isn't much you can do about it, and you end up a bit behind walking away with your tail between your legs.
Only silver league btw. Thanks!
Thanks!
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I've tried it and it works. That's the only build I've been doin so far. With pretty ok results vs all matchups. Although the micro and mechanics is a bit different in the matchups the general buildorder is the same. ---------
Name/ID:--- (not gonna disclose because someone might see this and know ill 4gate:D) Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 2492 (70 Bonus pool) Points 21 Games into challenge: 2759 (its exactly 7 days ago i started) (0 bonuspool) Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Coming SOON ( and not in the blizzard sense)
I was 2.6k a coupl of days b4 the 4gate challenge. so dont think i went from bein a 2.5k skillwise to 2.7k.
So far ive won 15 out of 21 games. Matchup | Wins - losses PvP | 6-3 PvT | 4-1 PvZ | 5-2
Gives me a total of 71% win-ratio Started good
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I been having some real issues with zerg lately. I think this may be the cure.
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On November 24 2010 15:41 b_unnies wrote: i'd much prefer to have Protoss do a challenge where they don't go 4 gate for 100 games
this
User was warned for this post
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On November 30 2010 01:04 Patriot.dlk wrote:
While I have been matched up with my share of scrubs who fail to proceed after their gimmicky build was stopped it's not due to them getting the wrong kind of practice doing their build, it's just them being bad.
Since getting educated about tvz from artosis in GSL 3 I started doing 2 rax pressure every match against zerg. Why would I not learn how to transition into something else after I have done this?
TL:DR if you execute a build you also get practice transitioning from it, some players are just bad at strategy games and learns very slow
There's a difference, 4 gate is an all-in build, you can't transition out of it unless you are in a situation where you somehow severely damaged your opponent, but can't break him.
You can 2 rax on multiple ways, you could simply go all in - make 5 marines, pull all scv's on minerals away, only use mules and new scv's to keep mining and attack the zerg. You are unable to transition out of this.
You can simply open up with 2 rax, use 1 or 2 scv's (maybe one of those is your scouting scv is you kept it alive) to make some bunkers near the zerg's natural, and do damage that way, while you keep mining and simply expand when you have 400 minerals - this is not an all-in at all, because you don't cut worker production, it's just early aggresion which you transition out of.
Lets say you 4gate a terran, you cut workers around 20, make a proxy pylon, then warp in your 4 extra units, together with the initial stalker/zealot (or maybe even 2 stalkers). You have around 6-7 units, and you start your attack.
Terran already has 2 bunkers however, he easily kills your units while only losing perhaps 2-3 marines or a marauder. You can never transition out of this, he's ahead on workers, he's ahead on units. You have to make units to defend any counterattack - and you are already behind on economy, you can't expand because you don't have resources to expand and make an army because of your low income. You pretty much inevatibly lost if your 4gate attack fails, that's why it's called an all-in.
Maybe someone already responded to the post I quoted, but I didn't want to read 5 pages to find out, and felt the need to clear this up. If people want to do this challenge - by all means, have your fun, go for it, if you are a lower league player then yeah maybe you'll reach diamond this way (if you get the BO down properly you probably will). But doing an all-in doesn't give you any practice other then being able to do that same exact build, well perhaps a bit of practice in micro'ing your units in the early game.
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With all the hate for 4gate, I will say that if you find yourself always trying to counter your opponent, or always coming up with hairbrained overcomplicated schemes for how to outwit your enemies, this could be a good thing to do (maybe 20 or 40 games rather than 100). You learn interesting facts like that it doesn't matter if your opponent has a cloaked banshee or whatever if all of his buildings are exploding, or that zerg having mutas in your probe line doesn't really do that much to stop you from putting a bunch of zealots and stalkers in his Everything.
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I like how 4 gate was the closest plexa got to beating pokebunny in their 10 game series. lol.
edit: and he would've beaten him with it too if he didn't call chokey mcchokerson on the phone and ask for some advice.
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At a Diamond level, 4 Gates are insanely easy to deal with as Z if they scout it. Against Terran, I wouldn't recommend this unless they are teching.
In PvP though, a perfectly executed 4 Gate is incredibly powerful.
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I approve of this thread. I crush 4 gaters so hard it's not even funny.
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On January 05 2011 02:57 FenneK wrote: At a Diamond level, 4 Gates are insanely easy to deal with as Z if they scout it. Against Terran, I wouldn't recommend this unless they are teching.
In PvP though, a perfectly executed 4 Gate is incredibly powerful.
Insanely easy? Then why is every thread asking "how to beat 4-gate as Z?" several pages long with disagreements about the best way to deal with it?
The 4-gate is set up so the toss player has more workers and a significantly stronger army than zerg at around 5-6 minutes if done properly.
But please, share how it's ridiculously easy to stomp as long as you see it coming.
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On December 26 2010 21:08 haegN wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2010 21:02 Wrongspeedy wrote: FadedProbe.622
First! I haven't been doing strictly 4 gates, but as a Protoss player who was 2000 Platinum (Without 4-gating at all, and about 200 1v1 wins). By mixing heavy gateway pressure I was able to jump to 2200 Diamond in 2 weeks. I've won 27 of my last 40 games. Most of them were DT Rushes with 4 gate support, or 3 gates into a Stargate (for Voidrays and line of sight) adding a 4th gateway for when I was warping into their base. I feel like just by trying early pressure it has at least helped me win some of the faster games I would have normally lost, its a safer and more flexible style, which makes sense. SC2 is mostly a game of aggression and that many gateways gives you a lot of leeway in how you want to execute that aggression.
This is the safe hand that prevents that poker feeling from completely invading the game, at least for me as a Protoss player thus far Gateway units are considered stronger and stronger by the day it seems..
Gateway units are different than marines and marauders because they don't require a ton of stutter step micro in order to make them effective. Positioning and using their shield regen ability micro is a lot trickier to manage in big battles so it's been harder for protoss, but i think now they are figuring out how to make gateway units more effective especially stalkers in early game.
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4gate may be strong but I got to 2k diamond by only scv/marine ins with 3rax. I build an extra rax instead of orbital so ther's really no backup if it fails, just an all in sick push. Then i stopped rushing and got pushed down to gold. Learned to play properly in TvZ and TvP and pushed myself up to 2,4k diamond. I still do it in tvt because I find that matchup boring as hell and I don't have any intentions of ever learning it.
And about your 4gate challenge, why are you promoting players to do this? There's no micro or macro involved, you just do the same thing repeatingly and your wins are completely dependant on if your opponent plays good or not.
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On January 05 2011 02:57 FenneK wrote: At a Diamond level, 4 Gates are insanely easy to deal with as Z if they scout it. Against Terran, I wouldn't recommend this unless they are teching.
In PvP though, a perfectly executed 4 Gate is incredibly powerful.
That's a matter of opinion, and your own opinion is likely to be influenced by your opponents.
I find a 4 gate to be easier to stop in PvP due to the use of forcefields (I generally use the same BO, 2gate robo, adding an extra gate if I scout a 4 gate, and getting out 2 early sentry's). It depends on your build order and the player you play against. In my opinion a 4gate will always be hard to stop for zerg, if the protoss executes it well.
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On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote: 4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games
no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective
oGsMC gisado 3
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A perfectly executed and micro'd 4 gate is hard to stop by ANY race and player. If it was "ridiculously easy to stop" like half you people say it is, then it would have disappeared past 2k diamond. As it is, I still see it executed in professional matches vs every race, so quit with the "4 gate is easy to stop" crap. It's only easy if either he screws up his timing or you basically blind counter it. The thing is, executing it flawlessly is actually fairly difficult, as just a minor screw-up like your proxy pylon being 10 seconds late, or not hitting all your warp gate chronos perfectly can make the difference between an easy roll-over and you getting your butt handed to you. As a bad silver toss, I think I'm going to take up this challenge and see where it gets me.
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Good build in PvP, average build in PvT and especially weak build in PvZ.
1 rax into CC is easily defendable against a 4gate allin, which by definition obsoletes the 4 gate. If your opponent can make one barracks, expand, and still hold your allin, I'd go so far as to say the allin is not very good.
Also, 4gate is really map dependent. Maps like Blistering Sands are unbelievably good for 4gate allins, since Terran relies heavily on bunkers and bio units without stim to defend against 4gates. Break down the back rocks and you have an entirely new attack route. However, maps like Lost Temple and Steppes of War are terrible for 4gate allins, since there are tiny tiny chokes that can be easily blocked with units and bunkers and spine crawlers etc....
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especially weak build in PvZ
The only reason anyone could say it's especially weak in PvZ is because every single zerg from (guessing here) mid gold level to high diamond has had to play against it about.... a trillion times.
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On January 05 2011 03:22 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote: 4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective oGsMC gisado 3 You're assuming 4gate automatically means all in, which is pretty far from the truth. There's a difference between 4gate pressure into an eventual (but delayed) expansion and 4gate all in while cutting probe production etc.
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4gate could be considered an allin even if you don't cut probes. If say, your opponent is going for cloakshees and you 4gate him, he's going to win if he holds you off because you won't have an obs ready in time. This is a question of definiton though.
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A 4 gate is only a true all-in if you cut probes and attack until either you win or lose all your units. Even if you do cut probes, if you can ff their ramp for a while until you get an expo up yourself, then you'll end up at least even. Even a 4 gate with probes getting cut isn't really an all-in unless you sac'ed all your units, as you can build a hefty enough force that you can micro well-enough to hold off most non-detection based pushes. At least long enough to get your expo up and running on most maps, and get the game at least close to being even again.
The thing is most people(like me) don't recognize a lost battle before it begins well enough, so they only find out the 4 gate will fail after they've already lost most of their units, and a big force is pushing at their front door. And then they have nothing to defend with...whereas if that same push came vs the same amount of units you would have had had you not pushed all-in, but you were playing defense...you could have held.
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On January 05 2011 03:22 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote: 4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective oGsMC gisado 3
what are the m/u's? because in pvp the 4 warp gate is still super effective, but zerg should have little to no problem defending it, if they scout it and understand the timings. in pvt 4 gate can be very effective depending on the map, but if the terran knows whats coming up and bunkers up accordingly they shouldn't have much of a problem. so my apologies a 4 warp gate will work in pvp, and occasionally vs a t/z that doesn't understand they are playing vs an all in, and if they hold they instantly win.
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4gated my way to 2600 Diamond =D only build i still only know =(
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On January 05 2011 03:22 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote: 4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective oGsMC gisado 3
Most impressive Chart ive ever seen, stating how ogsMC plays....
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On January 05 2011 04:15 KillerPlague wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2011 03:22 ChickenLips wrote:On November 24 2010 15:38 KillerPlague wrote: 4 gates are pretty much nullified at higher levels, but if you're low enough i'm sure you can gain tons of points and master it quite well after 100 games no theyre not, even at the TOP level 4gate are still insanely effective oGsMC gisado 3 what are the m/u's? because in pvp the 4 warp gate is still super effective, but zerg should have little to no problem defending it, if they scout it and understand the timings. in pvt 4 gate can be very effective depending on the map, but if the terran knows whats coming up and bunkers up accordingly they shouldn't have much of a problem. so my apologies a 4 warp gate will work in pvp, and occasionally vs a t/z that doesn't understand they are playing vs an all in, and if they hold they instantly win.
Scouting a 4 gate is hard. There's a huge difference between seeing 3 gates and 4 gates - but if you see 3, how do you know you're not missing a 4th? Preparing for a 4 gate and facing a 3 gate expand from a Zealot and 3 Sentries will put you behind and thus you might take a risk and guess 3 gate - thereby losing to a 4 gate.
3 gate with a hidden Stargate can be a bitch as well, you're screwed if your Queens die before the Voidrays. However, getting anti air by getting more Queens or rushing to Hydra are not optimal counters to a 4 gate.
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herp derp your build is not a threat if i have map hack and u tell me ur timings beforehand.
the problem is the inability to scout a 1 basing protoss. 1 gas 4gate, DT, void, Robo all in all require different responses, you just have to gamble on what your opponent does. NesTea and Fruitdealer died to 4gates from various Protosses. It's a strong build and I wouldn't have a problem with it if it wasnt so hard to scout
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On the "First Five to complete challenge:" section, you should include the amount of points they gained during those 100 games. It would be interesting to see just how strong this build is on the ladder.
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On November 24 2010 15:25 haegN wrote:First Five to complete challenge: 1. Drunken.Jedi 2. 3. 4. 5. Hello fellow TL-ers!I am here to present a challenge, just like in a training program or whatever. The Koreans like to practise only one build, so I figured, why not practise 4 gate? Im currently on my 11th match straight 4 gating my way through ladder. I want you to play 100 games as protoss doing only 4 gate. No matter what happens, you MUST 4 gate and attack. After you 4 gate and try to attack you can do whatever you want. Then upload your 100 replays pack and state how many points you were in the ladder before you started your challenge, and how many points you were after (you can also post updates as you go.) How to 4 gateI think most TL-ers know how to 4 gate (or do they? o.0) There are many different variations, I use the one were I stop producing probes when I'm at 20 probes, and only chronoboost the nexus once (at 10 supply). Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/108543-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandsHow to respond to this threadHere is a template for all you lazy people on how you respond to this thread: Name/ID: HaegeN.800 Division: Diamond Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1767 (0 Bonus pool) Points 63 Games into challenge: 2076 Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Coming SOON ( and not in the blizzard sense) Final NoteI would like to say: "LET THE 4 GATE BEGIN", but it began early beta so I shall only say: Live long and 4 gate! \\//^ EDIT I am doing this because I didnt use to 4 gate that much, and I wanted to see what it would be like So that question is answered before its asked To the people whining about 4 gate + Show Spoiler +"Hate to break it to you guys, but if you lose, you got OUT PLAYED, and you have NO reason to whine and cry over the internet and talk trash to players who just BEAT you. After all, when you beat someone, you don't look back and go "oh wow I was such a dick in that game for seige pushing all the way accross the map with missle turrets" no. That's what you do to win."
You hate this game don't you?
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I'm sure you all want to hear my Zerg rant against 4 gate so here it is (it's actually pretty tame):
Has ANYONE in this thread even come close to being 50/50 while ONLY DOING THE SAME STRATEGY EVERY SINGLE GAME? It's amazing how everyone in this threads win % suddenly goes up... how did you guys all get so much better so fast? Oh...
The only problem I have with the 4 gate is that it's about 8 times as hard to stop a 4 gate as it is to do it. I taught my friend who honestly barely knows how to play how to 4 gate and we went 5-0 in our placement matches and we stomped everyone. He barely knows how to move his units...
That being said, it's part of the game so I don't have a real problem with it. I'm just shocked that so many of you would honestly want to play 100 straight games of only using one skill-less (exaggerating here obviously) strategy. When I'm 3 bases ahead of the other guy and win, it feels pretty good. When I 4 gate / 7 pool / proxy whatever him... not so much. When I was 12, sure, I would have loved to 4 gate every game but I guess at this point I like earning my wins.
Anyway, go back to 4-gating.
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I don't really see how it's that big of a deal. So what, a bunch of protoss will be 4gating, it's not like that's anything new lol. I guess a well executed 4gate is hard to stop, but a lot of people also think that 2 spine crawlers is a huge investment while I generally don't believe that is the case. The longer you delay a 4gate from doing its job, which is to quickly kill you off, the more trouble that toss is going to be in. I really don't see how you can expect to defend an expo after you just lost almost all your units in a failed 4gate. It's an all-in like any other, if you lose your army in the beginning of the game then you're pretty much toast unless your opponent lets you macro your way back into the game again. This strategy is decent but the onus is on you to make something happen or else you end up behind, that's why I think in the grand scheme of things it fails against an opponent with solid mechanics who can properly punish you for going for the easy kill.
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I have to agree that you can 4gate a player and win >50% of the times that you otherwise (non 4gate) would lose >90% of the times.
But that's true in general for all all-ins. Ofcourse you need to know how to macro/micro and multitask.
Anyways, its fun. And a game should be fun. We want to know how far we can go with these builds. I for example have a 77% win ratio so far with this build which is InSaNe. Could never imagine. I'll see where it takes me. hopefully done with it soon so i can start macro again .
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I would love to see the statistics at the end. Personally I hope you all fail, no offense but it's better for this game, but sadly I know that's not going to be the case. My best guess is maybe 60% winrate averaged out among everyone.
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On January 05 2011 08:28 Vedad wrote: I have to agree that you can 4gate a player and win >50% of the times that you otherwise (non 4gate) would lose >90% of the times.
But that's true in general for all all-ins. Ofcourse you need to know how to macro/micro and multitask.
I, too, have to agree. At the game's current state and the player's current state cheese will always get you a higher win ratio than non-cheese, even at high diamond levels.
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http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7509/myfastest4gate.jpg
This is my fastest 1gas 4gate I've been able to accomplish in a BO tester. I sent my scouting probe to the opposing main and kept it there. I have 6 Stalkers and 2 Zealots warped in and ready to go at 5:49. Undefeated with this in PvP thus far.
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It really saddens me how absolutely easy it is to win games with 4 gate.
Not only that, but i've known people who only knew how to 4 gate, and they thought they were actually good at starcraft because they got to mid-diamond with it.
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shik can you post your BO or a rep, my 4gate is actually pretty unrefined and I've been playing awhile need to tune it up since im gonna start playing at tourneys :D
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On January 09 2011 05:23 CurLy[] wrote: shik can you post your BO or a rep, my 4gate is actually pretty unrefined and I've been playing awhile need to tune it up since im gonna start playing at tourneys :D Chronoboosts go this way: first 2 on probes like normal, third one on probes right after placing pylon, rest all on warpgate upgrade
Bo is: 9 Pylon 13 Gate 14 Assim 16 Pylon 18 Core 19 Zealot 22 Second Gate, cap probes now(should be 16 on mins 3 on gas 1 around the map placing pylons) 22 Warpgate Tech 22 Stalker 24 Pylon, proxy if you can 24 2 more Gates 24 Stalker 26 Zealot off second gate 28 Proxy Pylon, make sure it finishes in time for warpins 28 Warp tech done the second your Zealot comes out, morph all gates, warp 4 Stalkers, should be done by 5:50 36 Pylon
and so on
2 Zealots 6 Stalkers at 5:50, you'll also have some of the most unit-heavy earlygames possible so be sure to pressure with your Zealot and Stalkers as much as you can, most poorly done 4gates will skip some of these early units. It also would be absolutely wonderful if you can force his early sentry to waste a Force Field to hold your 1-2Stalkers and the Zealot.
An adjustment I think could be possible is to make one more probe after the 4 stalkers you warp in, it should help you sustain 4gate production better. Actually, you might also be able to sneak a probe in at 28 right after the pylon. Need to look into slipping a few probes into the build since this build runs out of steam after about 3 warp-ins(not like the opponent usually lives past that but...)
This build is cleaner than what I see many top level progamers do, and should be good for every level of play in especially PvP.
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I'm currently 9 games in (I was on holiday) and I just had the funnest game with the 4 gate 1 gas build, but I had to eventually switch to 2 gas and then immortals to finally win this. Is there any way I could have finished this game earlier without building immortals? My micro is not too great. Also, I'm happy to say that I have won all 9 of the games except for one disconnect, which I hope don't make you lose points.
EDIT: lol, forgot replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/126368-1v1-protoss-steppes-of-war
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On January 09 2011 05:23 TritaN wrote: It really saddens me how absolutely easy it is to win games with 4 gate.
Not only that, but i've known people who only knew how to 4 gate, and they thought they were actually good at starcraft because they got to mid-diamond with it. isn't that pretty much half of diamond players, people who can perfectly execute some mmm ball or 4gate, and thats it.
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excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that.
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On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. winning is the RIGHT way to play the game. Any game for that matter.
The only reason we do not encourage 4gating is because it is a rather all-in-ish build. You have to do enough damage with the push or you'll fall behind in the economic battle.
Having said that, 4gate actually trains your micro skills. And of course, if you have a good army trade off, you can always learn to transition out of it.
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On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. There is no WRONG way of playing this game, I consider cannon rush, 6 pool and 2 rax bunker rush, and anything else to be a legitimate strategy. The aim here is to kill your opponent, and just because you win most of the time from going 4 gate, does not make it any less of a strategy, I have never lost a game going 2 base carriers, does that mean I'm playing the game wrong because people don't know how to beat me?
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On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. There is no objectively correct way to play this game from start to finish. If one's goal is to quickly collect wins with abusive strategy and tactics (e.g. sacrificing a mid-late game economy for a strong early game timing push) then the protoss 4-gate is one way to accomplish this end.
There is an objectively correct way to train your game sense and skill into the late game. 4-gate is not the proper strategy for this kind of training.
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On January 10 2011 11:25 Lorken wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. There is no WRONG way of playing this game, I consider cannon rush, 6 pool and 2 rax bunker rush, and anything else to be a legitimate strategy. The aim here is to kill your opponent, and just because you win most of the time from going 4 gate, does not make it any less of a strategy, I have never lost a game going 2 base carriers, does that mean I'm playing the game wrong because people don't know how to beat me?
No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill.
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I am actually waiting for the ladder to reset just so i can go mass banelings every game and see if i can get higher diamond then i already am.
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On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game.
Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy.
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On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that.
I personally hate 4 gating but what gives you the right to criticize the 4 gate. Sure its not a very difficult build. But its still a strategy similar to 3 rax Marines/Maraduers. How would you know how the game is played? you watch a few pros see how they expand quickly and say huh guess one basing is for noobs only? Remember this there is no WRONG way to play the game just your OWN way to play.
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On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy.
Myself, I preferred it back when the SCV had 60 HP or better yet, in the early days of warcraft III when human peasant rush was boss. I personally hate games where I have to "tech up" to "fighting units" and prefer a crisply executed worker rush where amazing surround micro decides the game.
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On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins
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Great build order! Pretty well constructed. Any reps showing this in action?
Also, is there a way to mix in a sentry in there somewhere (maybe using 2 gas without delaying timing too much)? (I got pwned by an early mass ling attack.)
On January 09 2011 06:11 Shikyo wrote: Chronoboosts go this way: first 2 on probes like normal, third one on probes right after placing pylon, rest all on warpgate upgrade
Bo is: 9 Pylon 13 Gate 14 Assim 16 Pylon 18 Core 19 Zealot 22 Second Gate, cap probes now(should be 16 on mins 3 on gas 1 around the map placing pylons) 22 Warpgate Tech 22 Stalker 24 Pylon, proxy if you can 24 2 more Gates 24 Stalker 26 Zealot off second gate 28 Proxy Pylon, make sure it finishes in time for warpins 28 Warp tech done the second your Zealot comes out, morph all gates, warp 4 Stalkers, should be done by 5:50 36 Pylon
and so on
2 Zealots 6 Stalkers at 5:50, you'll also have some of the most unit-heavy earlygames possible so be sure to pressure with your Zealot and Stalkers as much as you can, most poorly done 4gates will skip some of these early units. It also would be absolutely wonderful if you can force his early sentry to waste a Force Field to hold your 1-2Stalkers and the Zealot.
An adjustment I think could be possible is to make one more probe after the 4 stalkers you warp in, it should help you sustain 4gate production better. Actually, you might also be able to sneak a probe in at 28 right after the pylon. Need to look into slipping a few probes into the build since this build runs out of steam after about 3 warp-ins(not like the opponent usually lives past that but...)
This build is cleaner than what I see many top level progamers do, and should be good for every level of play in especially PvP.
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I wholeheartedly disagree with everyone.
The 4gate is a gimmick, like any other 1 base strat. you cant consider yourself 'practising' starcraft in the 10 minutes from the start of the game.
Over time all ins will become less effective. If you want to practise for the long term, learn and execute fast expansions and do not take advantage of the cheesey metagame right now.
and yes is it is the WRONG way to play because it wont make you better - sure your micro will improve but your micro improves in any build so w/e that argument is void.
Face it, early aggressive players aren't playing the game properly.
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On January 10 2011 23:12 FrayzZeUsher wrote:Over time all ins will become less effective.
I take it you didn't see the Korean Air Starleague finals.
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I like this challenge. I hope you get a fair amount of participants.
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it is the WRONG way to play
Dude it is a game, there is no wrong way to play if you are having fun and doing what you want to do. It might be the wrong way that you want to play, but where do you get off telling people how they are suppose to play the game?
This is just a challenge, a fun thing to do.
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On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins
ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games.
We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us.
Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more.
Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming.
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On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming.
In other words you aren't really that good at the game.
besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state.
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maybe zerg shud do a 6 pool challenge
and call it fun for us to the haters because "its a method of winning"
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On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit.
And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better.
SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game.
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On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game.
Don't really like your attitude. What's fun with using only gateway units/dt's/immortals when you can have 4 bases warp in hight templar all over the place and get fully upgraded zealots who eat trough anything and those bad ass colossii. I think you really would like to play the macro game but you are frightened of it.
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On January 11 2011 00:24 iddy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. Don't really like your attitude. What's fun with using only gateway units/dt's/immortals when you can have 4 bases warp in hight templar all over the place and get fully upgraded zealots who eat trough anything and those bad ass colossii. I think you really would like to play the macro game but you are frightened of it.
Um, because warping in HTs all over the place, and throwing 75 storms a minute down off 6 bases into his 25 maruaders a minute pumping off 6 bases just isn't fun to me. I can, and have played big macro games, that's the nature of the game. I can 4-gate all I want, but many times, I won't be able to finish an opponent off with 4-gate, and have to expo and go macro mode. but i don't enjoy it that much. Funny thing is, I've had a lot of success when games go into macro mode, but I just don't enjoy it as much.
Maybe its the FPS perfectionist in me, I dunno. But I enjoy a crisp 4-gate where i lose 3 total units while wiping his forces off the face of the map, then walking into his base and raping all his workers, forcing a quick gg far more than macroing up to 4 bases, getting a 200/200 army of colossi, gateway, and void rays, and slowly strangling someone to death. Sorry, but i just don't like "correct" way to play the game as much. And I don't plan on changing the way I like to play the game just to make some guy who spends 4 hours a day practicing his 3 base macro game happy. Sorry Mr. 3 base macro guy, but your micro better be up to par or you'll never get to your 3 base macro game vs me.
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people like macro games because they prefer to play starcraft 2 for its mental elements, not its physical elements. they prefer a game that is NOT predicated on who can click their mouse faster. macro games are cerebral, defending a 4 gate is not. that is the distinction.
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I am a macro player, however, fourgate is a standard opening in PvP and a solid build for one to know. If one is too predictable than he will pay for it on occasion.
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On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game.
I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice.
oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 11 2011 00:48 annul wrote: people like macro games because they prefer to play starcraft 2 for its mental elements, not its physical elements. they prefer a game that is NOT predicated on who can click their mouse faster. macro games are cerebral, defending a 4 gate is not. that is the distinction.
I'll answer with an FPS example.
I am not a strategist. I have good aim and reaction times that I worked on to improve. So I use these to my advantage. When I'm playing CT in counterstrike(defense) I liked to push. Why? I'm not that good at the strategic/positioning part of the game, i mostly preferred to out-aim them. So instead of sitting and waiting for some perfectly timed and executed smoke and flash strategy to come and hit me, I just waited for about the time when they were setting up, then I'd just push out and use my (sometimes) superior aim to completely nullify their strategic and tactical advantages.
Same thing in SC2. I use what I'm good at to win me games.
Oh, and before one of you challenges me to 1 v 1, etc, I'll fully admit I'm not even very good at micro. But I enjoy trying and getting better at it...so that is what I do.
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On January 11 2011 01:10 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 00:48 annul wrote: people like macro games because they prefer to play starcraft 2 for its mental elements, not its physical elements. they prefer a game that is NOT predicated on who can click their mouse faster. macro games are cerebral, defending a 4 gate is not. that is the distinction. I'll answer with an FPS example. I am not a strategist. I have good aim and reaction times that I worked on to improve. So I use these to my advantage. When I'm playing CT in counterstrike(defense) I liked to push. Why? I'm not that good at the strategic/positioning part of the game, i mostly preferred to out-aim them. So instead of sitting and waiting for some perfectly timed and executed smoke and flash strategy to come and hit me, I just waited for about the time when they were setting up, then I'd just push out and use my (sometimes) superior aim to completely nullify their strategic and tactical advantages. Same thing in SC2. I use what I'm good at to win me games. Oh, and before one of you challenges me to 1 v 1, etc, I'll fully admit I'm not even very good at micro. But I enjoy trying and getting better at it...so that is what I do.
The thing I don't like about that is that it puts you on a time limit. If you don't win by about 12 minutes, a macro player will faceroll you.
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On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice.oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating.
I don't enjoy 4 gating per se. I'll fully agree that hitting a 4 gate timing where they are just teching up, and have, like, 3 units total....is not fun. But the bright side is those games last about 6 minutes long, and I just go to the next game, same with him. But i do enjoy intense micro battles, and so I play games that tend to that style of gameplay.
And you have no idea about FPS excitement if you are dissing it. I played competitive FPS for several years, and nothing in SC2 can be much more exciting than winning a 1 v 4 clutch in the OT of a playoff game. Or coming back from a 6-1 deficit in a duel and winning 7-6.
And I have no idea wtf that bolded section your argument is supposed to mean.
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On January 11 2011 01:12 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 01:10 Sm3agol wrote:On January 11 2011 00:48 annul wrote: people like macro games because they prefer to play starcraft 2 for its mental elements, not its physical elements. they prefer a game that is NOT predicated on who can click their mouse faster. macro games are cerebral, defending a 4 gate is not. that is the distinction. I'll answer with an FPS example. I am not a strategist. I have good aim and reaction times that I worked on to improve. So I use these to my advantage. When I'm playing CT in counterstrike(defense) I liked to push. Why? I'm not that good at the strategic/positioning part of the game, i mostly preferred to out-aim them. So instead of sitting and waiting for some perfectly timed and executed smoke and flash strategy to come and hit me, I just waited for about the time when they were setting up, then I'd just push out and use my (sometimes) superior aim to completely nullify their strategic and tactical advantages. Same thing in SC2. I use what I'm good at to win me games. Oh, and before one of you challenges me to 1 v 1, etc, I'll fully admit I'm not even very good at micro. But I enjoy trying and getting better at it...so that is what I do. The thing I don't like about that is that it puts you on a time limit. If you don't win by about 12 minutes, a macro player will faceroll you.
Not necessarily. If I do damage, or deny your expo long enough to get mine down when I see I won't break your contain, then I still can win.
For example, if I screw up my, say, 3 gate robo, and he has time to seige tank and bunker up, I won't break his ramp easily. So i just hold at the bottom, drop an expo, and try to run him over with void rays/colossi/whatever. But that's just the style I like to play. So, if i don't win by 12 minutes, maybe I lose. But that's my opponents reward for holding me off. He gets to start playing the way he likes.
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SC2 is all about having fun. If someone finds 4gating to be the most fun, that's their decision. I prefer a quick game to an hour long game anyday.
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The wrong way of playing the game is losing, do whatever it takes to win. It's on the other people to figure out how to beat 4gating easily until it's no longer a controversial build
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What the hell. People seem to be missing the point. Surely this is about seeing the success rate of just 4gating and judging it as a tactic.
It's not like the guys made a post saying "wow 4gate is the best thing ever, everything else is shit".
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On a related note, anyone who plays vs Toss, and isn't prepared for a 4 gate at all around 6 minutes deserves to lose.
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Name/ID: Pato.183 Division: SilverPoints before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 193 Bonus Pool (2071) Points Games into challenge: Final score: Just starting out, probably play some games later.
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On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating.
Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss.
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On January 11 2011 02:55 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating. Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss.
You're wrong.
On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote: No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill.
This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it.
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many people here start to forget a little detail. this is a computer GAME. the main goal of it is: HAVING FUN.
if he has reached his goal by 4 gateing. Nice for him. if other reach this goal by playing long macro games. Nice for them.
if you failed your goal of have fun at the game and rage about playstyles of other or feel bad by playing than perhaps you should search for something else that brings you fun.
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Guys, cool the hell down. This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard. The pro-macro people are right in that macro is the best way to get to the VERY top, however, all in play is something that all good players should know well, so as to defend it and to have some variety. As this guy is not trying to be at the tip top, but just trying to have fun, than four-gate is fine. I personally get immense satisfaction from warping in 12 units off 3 bases and rolling my opponent with masses of 3/3/3 protoss units. Others don't. Fine. Don't care.
One last note. 4 gate is not really all-in in PvP as pretty much everybody either 4 gates or 3 gate robo's
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On January 11 2011 03:03 skeldark wrote: many people here start to forget a little detail. this is a computer GAME. the main goal of it is: HAVING FUN.
if he has reached his goal by 4 gateing. Nice for him. if other reach this goal by playing long macro games. Nice for them.
if you failed your goal of have fun at the game and rage about playstyles of other or feel bad by playing than perhaps you should search for something else that brings you fun.
I completly agree with skeledark. I think making fun out of the game is most important thing. If u feel like playing macro game (and u are good enough..) then do it and be happy u can stop such a strat as 4 gate ^^.
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On January 11 2011 03:05 stormtemplar wrote: Guys, cool the hell down. This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard. The pro-macro people are right in that macro is the best way to get to the VERY top, however, all in play is something that all good players should know well, so as to defend it and to have some variety. As this guy is not trying to be at the tip top, but just trying to have fun, than four-gate is fine. I personally get immense satisfaction from warping in 12 units off 3 bases and rolling my opponent with masses of 3/3/3 protoss units. Others don't. Fine. Don't care.
One last note. 4 gate is not really all-in in PvP as pretty much everybody either 4 gates or 3 gate robo's
The "pro-macro" people are not right at all. Believe it or not, it's much easier to win against someone who only knows how to macro than someone who is good with a variety of builds. The latter puts much more pressure on his opponents to scout well and practice against everything. In the end, a tournament level Protoss player should excel at all aspects of the game, and someone's choice to learn the early game before learning the late game does not make him any worse of a player.
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Just wondering about 4-gate on PvT. My friend opens with 3 rax typically (2 tech, 1 reactor) and once conc shells finishes I feel like 4-gate is just running in units to their slaughter. I am very very new, so I realize there are a number of things that may be my issue. I probably didn't break his wall soon enough for starters. Just wondering though, if 4-gate is a good idea vs a walled off T with 3 rax, and what composition I should go for when I make my first push against him?
Was also considering 3 gate + stargate to help break down the wall (would i push at 1 or 2 VRs?)
Thanks for any help.
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On January 11 2011 02:59 Chise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 02:55 iamke55 wrote:On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating. Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss. You're wrong. Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote: No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill. This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it.
Nope you are wrong. I watch pros streams all the time. And they rush and early game cheese/all-in almost more than they do macro games. if you can't 4 gate or defend a 4 gate then you aren't good. It's the most basic protoss build known to man. If it beats you time and time again...don't whine about noobs that can't macro.
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On January 11 2011 02:59 Chise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote: No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill. This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it. This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would people getting high ratings from 4 gating invalidate the ladder system?
Is 4 gating somehow cheating? No, clearly not since there is no rule inside or outsider the game against it.
Is 4 gate overpowered? Well, if you think it is, protosses should be 4 gating even more so that Blizzard gets aware of the issue and can do something to fix it. If you don't think 4 gate is cheating or overpowered, then why are you complaining?
Wouldn't it invalidate the rating system even more if players refused to do a strong strategy out of some misplaced sense of honour?
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On January 11 2011 03:21 Boozie wrote: Just wondering about 4-gate on PvT. My friend opens with 3 rax typically (2 tech, 1 reactor) and once conc shells finishes I feel like 4-gate is just running in units to their slaughter. I am very very new, so I realize there are a number of things that may be my issue. I probably didn't break his wall soon enough for starters. Just wondering though, if 4-gate is a good idea vs a walled off T with 3 rax, and what composition I should go for when I make my first push against him?
Was also considering 3 gate + stargate to help break down the wall (would i push at 1 or 2 VRs?)
Thanks for any help.
3gate robo, a 3rax early stim by terran is a hard counter to the 4gate it crushes it. But if.you get an immortal or two by the time he pushes you should have a way better chance and it sets you up for an easy expo once you his first push, just be careful about getting contained and it almost forces 1 base colossus.
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On January 11 2011 01:10 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 00:48 annul wrote: people like macro games because they prefer to play starcraft 2 for its mental elements, not its physical elements. they prefer a game that is NOT predicated on who can click their mouse faster. macro games are cerebral, defending a 4 gate is not. that is the distinction. I'll answer with an FPS example. I am not a strategist. I have good aim and reaction times that I worked on to improve. So I use these to my advantage. When I'm playing CT in counterstrike(defense) I liked to push. Why? I'm not that good at the strategic/positioning part of the game, i mostly preferred to out-aim them. So instead of sitting and waiting for some perfectly timed and executed smoke and flash strategy to come and hit me, I just waited for about the time when they were setting up, then I'd just push out and use my (sometimes) superior aim to completely nullify their strategic and tactical advantages. Same thing in SC2. I use what I'm good at to win me games.
I think the main difference here is, if you have a tactic that relies on having a better aim then your opponent in counterstrike, that means you are better then your opponent.
If you 4gate your opponent, it doesn't neccesarily mean you are better then him, it simply means he wasn't able to scout it in time to respond. Not so much outplaying your opponent, rather hoping he didn't scout. It's more a game of chance then a game of skill, the aggresive all-inning player simply has the advantage 90% of the time, one way or another.
While I actually do agree on your point though, it's not fun only waiting untill you are 200/200 and then trading army's. However this is a choice you make yourself, there's alot of things you can do to be aggresive during the entire game. You could push out with your first zealot/stalker, get your expansion up, do some poking with a sentry/stalker or sentry/zealot force. Be aggresive with either your first 2-3 collosus or a few void rays, and lategame you can actually harras all over the map by using DT's, Storm Drops, flying a speed warp prism with a collosus over your opponents mineral lines (I advise toss players to try this sometimes, if the player doesn't have mass turrets around his bases it can be incredibly annoying to catch a speed warp prism, and micro loading up/unloading a 9 range collosus to harras buildings or workers lines is really fun). And these are only examples from protoss, I actually think terran and zerg have alot more ways to harras or be aggresive in general.
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On January 11 2011 03:28 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 02:59 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 02:55 iamke55 wrote:On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating. Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss. You're wrong. On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote: No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill. This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it. Nope you are wrong. I watch pros streams all the time. And they rush and early game cheese/all-in almost more than they do macro games. if you can't 4 gate or defend a 4 gate then you aren't good. It's the most basic protoss build known to man. If it beats you time and time again...don't whine about noobs that can't macro.
It's a strategy orders of magnitude more difficult to defend perfectly than it is to execute perfectly. 'Noobs' with reference to those that can't hold off a practiced 4gate is a term that seems to be attempting to build up your own worth as a player. It's significantly harder to react to a build and hold a practiced aggressive build than it is to pull off said build successfully.
On January 11 2011 03:14 iamke55 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 03:05 stormtemplar wrote: Guys, cool the hell down. This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard. The pro-macro people are right in that macro is the best way to get to the VERY top, however, all in play is something that all good players should know well, so as to defend it and to have some variety. As this guy is not trying to be at the tip top, but just trying to have fun, than four-gate is fine. I personally get immense satisfaction from warping in 12 units off 3 bases and rolling my opponent with masses of 3/3/3 protoss units. Others don't. Fine. Don't care.
One last note. 4 gate is not really all-in in PvP as pretty much everybody either 4 gates or 3 gate robo's The "pro-macro" people are not right at all. Believe it or not, it's much easier to win against someone who only knows how to macro than someone who is good with a variety of builds. The latter puts much more pressure on his opponents to scout well and practice against everything. In the end, a tournament level Protoss player should excel at all aspects of the game, and someone's choice to learn the early game before learning the late game does not make him any worse of a player.
That's the working definition of a multidimensional macro player: being comfortable with a number of builds and being able to react to an opponent's build according to what he scouts. That is the complete antithesis of what this thread embodies, however. This thread encourages dogmatic adherence to a build order. This is not inherently bad, of course, and is a really useful way to introduce one to how to play SCII. But 4gating 100 times in a row, though it leads to successful results, does not lead to mastery of numerous builds, and thus does not lead to adaptable macro success, that which you are placing on a pedestal, even if you're trying to separate the two.
Macro isn't just getting bases and keeping minerals low. It's knowing when to expand, how to respond to various builds, and when to attack vs. when to stay back, and critically, knowing when to cut on economy in response to aggression to survive.
Generally, I, a lowly Silver Zerg, would be willing to offer a challenge to those who got where they are solely by 4-gating, with my opponent playing Zerg, myself playing Protoss, each of us given 24 hours to learn the other race's strategy. I don't actually have enough time for that in the next 24 hours, so I can't offer that challenge, but if someone else who is in agreement with me would take up the mantle, it could be useful. Probably would help settle the argument, assuming it's not HuK vs. Bronzie.
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On January 11 2011 03:28 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 02:59 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 02:55 iamke55 wrote:On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 11:16 FrayzZeUsher wrote: excuse me... but why would your promote such a strat.
One basing is the WRONG way to play the game, remember that. Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game. Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating. Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss. You're wrong. On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote: No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill. This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it. Nope you are wrong. I watch pros streams all the time. And they rush and early game cheese/all-in almost more than they do macro games. if you can't 4 gate or defend a 4 gate then you aren't good. It's the most basic protoss build known to man. If it beats you time and time again...don't whine about noobs that can't macro.
Yeah, guess why more and more people start losing interest in SC2? Because shit is viable, even on pro level. Just watch BitByBit.Prime play. He has no skill what so ever and still he could make it to Code A.
4 Gate isn't overpowered, it's pretty easy to hold once you know the timing. But there's a difference in being the person who 4gates and being the person who defends. The person who attacks needs no skill at all to do the 4 Gate - All you need to know is: I'm gonna Build my 4 Gates, get my Warpin Tech and then I'm going to attack. Obviously micro helps to make 4 Gate more effective, but that's it. On the other side, the person who defends needs to know a 4gate is coming, else they might lose. So, basically, if 4gate wins, it's not because the person who pulled it off was good, but because his opponent was bad. Hence: Winning with a 4gate doesn't make you a good player. At all.
On January 11 2011 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would people getting high ratings from 4 gating invalidate the ladder system?
Is 4 gating somehow cheating? No, clearly not since there is no rule inside or outsider the game against it.
Is 4 gate overpowered? Well, if you think it is, protosses should be 4 gating even more so that Blizzard gets aware of the issue and can do something to fix it. If you don't think 4 gate is cheating or overpowered, then why are you complaining?
Wouldn't it invalidate the rating system even more if players refused to do a strong strategy out of some misplaced sense of honour?
As I stated above, 4 gate isn't overpowered. Also, 4 gate isn't cheating. 4 gate is simply a result of the current game design, which is pretty poor if you consider SC2 an esport. The problem with 4gate (and many other allin/cheese plays) is that they don't require skill to pull off, BUT it requires skill do defend such allin/cheese play, because you have to know they are coming and get the right unit mix to defend them. This means that people with lesser skill (4gaters) win against people with higher skill more often than they should, considering that the better out of 2 players should generally win more games.
That's the reason I'm complaining. I think SC2 is supposed to be a competitive game where the better player wins, but the current state of the game doesn't make this happen.
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On January 11 2011 05:24 Chise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 03:28 Sm3agol wrote:On January 11 2011 02:59 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 02:55 iamke55 wrote:On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote: [quote] Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game.
Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating. Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss. You're wrong. On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote: No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill. This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it. Nope you are wrong. I watch pros streams all the time. And they rush and early game cheese/all-in almost more than they do macro games. if you can't 4 gate or defend a 4 gate then you aren't good. It's the most basic protoss build known to man. If it beats you time and time again...don't whine about noobs that can't macro. Yeah, guess why more and more people start losing interest in SC2? Because shit is viable, even on pro level. Just watch BitByBit.Prime play. He has no skill what so ever and still he could make it to Code A. 4 Gate isn't overpowered, it's pretty easy to hold once you know the timing. But there's a difference in being the person who 4gates and being the person who defends. The person who attacks needs no skill at all to do the 4 Gate - All you need to know is: I'm gonna Build my 4 Gates, get my Warpin Tech and then I'm going to attack. Obviously micro helps to make 4 Gate more effective, but that's it. On the other side, the person who defends needs to know a 4gate is coming, else they might lose. So, basically, if 4gate wins, it's not because the person who pulled it off was good, but because his opponent was bad. Hence: Winning with a 4gate doesn't make you a good player. At all. Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would people getting high ratings from 4 gating invalidate the ladder system?
Is 4 gating somehow cheating? No, clearly not since there is no rule inside or outsider the game against it.
Is 4 gate overpowered? Well, if you think it is, protosses should be 4 gating even more so that Blizzard gets aware of the issue and can do something to fix it. If you don't think 4 gate is cheating or overpowered, then why are you complaining?
Wouldn't it invalidate the rating system even more if players refused to do a strong strategy out of some misplaced sense of honour? As I stated above, 4 gate isn't overpowered. Also, 4 gate isn't cheating. 4 gate is simply a result of the current game design, which is pretty poor if you consider SC2 an esport. The problem with 4gate (and many other allin/cheese plays) is that they don't require skill to pull off, BUT it requires skill do defend such allin/cheese play, because you have to know they are coming and get the right unit mix to defend them. This means that people with lesser skill (4gaters) win against people with higher skill more often than they should, considering that the better out of 2 players should generally win more games. That's the reason I'm complaining. I think SC2 is supposed to be a competitive game where the better player wins, but the current state of the game doesn't make this happen.
There seems to be two lines of thought relating to how 4 gating is "bad". And yet you manage to contradict one or the other at all times.
One is that its not a true representation of skill level since the attacker can beat the defender more often than their skill level would normally allow. But this argument only holds water if you take ladder to actually mean something, as if it were a tournament of sorts. And yet it is not. It means nothing, it's a number. If we were competing for money, then yes, your argument would be correct. Someone that refuses to learn more than one-base all-ins would be looked down on, because while he would upset some legitimately good players, he would have no chance of proceeding far because there is guaranteed to be someone in the tournament that is at least his equal at one-basing, while also possessing a far superior macro game. This was very evident in the latest Korean matches with 2 rax all-in builds. But why would this bother you in ladder? If 4-gating you puts me on equal terms with you because in all other respects you are far better, then I need to play you when I 4 gate. I will increase my skill with my 4-gate until I begin to hit the wall of players that are at least my equal at 4-gating. And there I will stop. At that point, my 4 gate "skill" puts me at the same level as everyone else around me. It doesn't lower your rating to beat me, in respect to rating, 4 gate puts me on even footing with you, and hence....we should be matched up in ladder.
But the other line of thought is that i learn nothing. And again, why should this concern you? YOU will be just getting more practice against the most common Protoss build on planet earth, while I will be doing what I consider to be fun. Win-win situation. Somehow that makes you angry.
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On January 11 2011 05:24 Chise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 03:28 Sm3agol wrote:On January 11 2011 02:59 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 02:55 iamke55 wrote:On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote:On January 10 2011 13:18 Sm3agol wrote: [quote] Really? How is that the wrong way to play the game. I don't see any, "no 1 base all-ins" in Blizzard's ToS. Does it win games? Yes. Then it is a right way to play the game.
Me speaking personally, I hate big macro games. i feel like it reduces games to pure unit composition and macro, instead of fun micro, and amazing tactical play. I enjoy a crisp 4 gate win where I FF 4 of his zealots into a corner and waste them with stalker/sentry, and that great play winning the game for me. Macroing inot a giant Toss death ball, and A-moving over a my enemies army, losing most of it but doing damage, re-macroing up, and slowly pushing him into oblivion? Not so fun. 30 minute game, and half of it is just managing your economy. imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating. Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss. You're wrong. On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote: No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill. This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it. Nope you are wrong. I watch pros streams all the time. And they rush and early game cheese/all-in almost more than they do macro games. if you can't 4 gate or defend a 4 gate then you aren't good. It's the most basic protoss build known to man. If it beats you time and time again...don't whine about noobs that can't macro. Yeah, guess why more and more people start losing interest in SC2? Because shit is viable, even on pro level. Just watch BitByBit.Prime play. He has no skill what so ever and still he could make it to Code A. 4 Gate isn't overpowered, it's pretty easy to hold once you know the timing. But there's a difference in being the person who 4gates and being the person who defends. The person who attacks needs no skill at all to do the 4 Gate - All you need to know is: I'm gonna Build my 4 Gates, get my Warpin Tech and then I'm going to attack. Obviously micro helps to make 4 Gate more effective, but that's it. On the other side, the person who defends needs to know a 4gate is coming, else they might lose. So, basically, if 4gate wins, it's not because the person who pulled it off was good, but because his opponent was bad. Hence: Winning with a 4gate doesn't make you a good player. At all. Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would people getting high ratings from 4 gating invalidate the ladder system?
Is 4 gating somehow cheating? No, clearly not since there is no rule inside or outsider the game against it.
Is 4 gate overpowered? Well, if you think it is, protosses should be 4 gating even more so that Blizzard gets aware of the issue and can do something to fix it. If you don't think 4 gate is cheating or overpowered, then why are you complaining?
Wouldn't it invalidate the rating system even more if players refused to do a strong strategy out of some misplaced sense of honour? As I stated above, 4 gate isn't overpowered. Also, 4 gate isn't cheating. 4 gate is simply a result of the current game design, which is pretty poor if you consider SC2 an esport. The problem with 4gate (and many other allin/cheese plays) is that they don't require skill to pull off, BUT it requires skill do defend such allin/cheese play, because you have to know they are coming and get the right unit mix to defend them. This means that people with lesser skill (4gaters) win against people with higher skill more often than they should, considering that the better out of 2 players should generally win more games. That's the reason I'm complaining. I think SC2 is supposed to be a competitive game where the better player wins, but the current state of the game doesn't make this happen.
A strategy that does not take skill to execute, but takes a lot skill to defend should be considered overpowered. It doesn't change the fact that playing 4gate to win is a valid strategy. It doesn't make you a bad player at all. If you think you maximize your chances of winning by doing a 4gate, then you should play a 4gate. People that are complaining about the persons being lame and skillless are probably not understanding what it means to play to win. If you want to complain, you should complain about the imbalance of skill that is needed for this strategy by the attacking and defending player, not about your opponent doing what maximizes his chances of winning the game.
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4 gate should be nerf (not really) Me myself player terran, so I giggle every time toss go 4 gate. However I felt 4 gate is unfair to zerg.
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Name/ID: CDCramer.492/NA Division: Gold Points before 100 4Gate Challenge: 2397 (lol why am i still in gold) Bonus Pool : 0 Final score: not yet Replay pack: coming soon
Im hoping that if I 4 gate 100 times, it will help me defend it when someone else does it, beecause i know the timing when the push comes and stuff like that. (i play zerg)
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Can we please get some mods in here to stop all this discussion of how the game should be played, and possibly have those posts removed too? I can't seem to find any relevant posts since the last 2 pages.
Also, (on topic) concerning the replay packs, do we have to make one? Because I don't save all of my replays and I doubt anybody would want to watch 100 of my games
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Main goal of Starcraft is to win the match. I will use whatever is given to me in the game to get to that end point, be it: worker rush, proxy gates, 4gate or macro game. Now piss off.
NOBODY on this forum is remotely in the position to absolutely judge a game for everyone.
Thanks.
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What you guys are trying to tell me is not neccessary wrong. It is ok to use everything you can use to achieve your goal, which is to win. BUT, if a game has tactics that don't require skill to execute but still win a lot, the game can't be considered beging part of esports.
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On January 11 2011 06:48 Sm3agol wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 05:24 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 03:28 Sm3agol wrote:On January 11 2011 02:59 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 02:55 iamke55 wrote:On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 13:26 alphafuzard wrote: [quote] imo the most beautiful tactics are in the late game the ball of death players are usually much easier to beat than players with a competent and confident late game also it shows off the real skill of the players in many more aspects than 8 minutes build order wins ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games. We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us. Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more. Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating. Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss. You're wrong. On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote: No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill. This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it. Nope you are wrong. I watch pros streams all the time. And they rush and early game cheese/all-in almost more than they do macro games. if you can't 4 gate or defend a 4 gate then you aren't good. It's the most basic protoss build known to man. If it beats you time and time again...don't whine about noobs that can't macro. Yeah, guess why more and more people start losing interest in SC2? Because shit is viable, even on pro level. Just watch BitByBit.Prime play. He has no skill what so ever and still he could make it to Code A. 4 Gate isn't overpowered, it's pretty easy to hold once you know the timing. But there's a difference in being the person who 4gates and being the person who defends. The person who attacks needs no skill at all to do the 4 Gate - All you need to know is: I'm gonna Build my 4 Gates, get my Warpin Tech and then I'm going to attack. Obviously micro helps to make 4 Gate more effective, but that's it. On the other side, the person who defends needs to know a 4gate is coming, else they might lose. So, basically, if 4gate wins, it's not because the person who pulled it off was good, but because his opponent was bad. Hence: Winning with a 4gate doesn't make you a good player. At all. On January 11 2011 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would people getting high ratings from 4 gating invalidate the ladder system?
Is 4 gating somehow cheating? No, clearly not since there is no rule inside or outsider the game against it.
Is 4 gate overpowered? Well, if you think it is, protosses should be 4 gating even more so that Blizzard gets aware of the issue and can do something to fix it. If you don't think 4 gate is cheating or overpowered, then why are you complaining?
Wouldn't it invalidate the rating system even more if players refused to do a strong strategy out of some misplaced sense of honour? As I stated above, 4 gate isn't overpowered. Also, 4 gate isn't cheating. 4 gate is simply a result of the current game design, which is pretty poor if you consider SC2 an esport. The problem with 4gate (and many other allin/cheese plays) is that they don't require skill to pull off, BUT it requires skill do defend such allin/cheese play, because you have to know they are coming and get the right unit mix to defend them. This means that people with lesser skill (4gaters) win against people with higher skill more often than they should, considering that the better out of 2 players should generally win more games. That's the reason I'm complaining. I think SC2 is supposed to be a competitive game where the better player wins, but the current state of the game doesn't make this happen. There seems to be two lines of thought relating to how 4 gating is "bad". And yet you manage to contradict one or the other at all times. One is that its not a true representation of skill level since the attacker can beat the defender more often than their skill level would normally allow. But this argument only holds water if you take ladder to actually mean something, as if it were a tournament of sorts. And yet it is not. It means nothing, it's a number. If we were competing for money, then yes, your argument would be correct. Someone that refuses to learn more than one-base all-ins would be looked down on, because while he would upset some legitimately good players, he would have no chance of proceeding far because there is guaranteed to be someone in the tournament that is at least his equal at one-basing, while also possessing a far superior macro game. This was very evident in the latest Korean matches with 2 rax all-in builds. Sorry, but your argument is absolute bullshit.
Nothing in this world has intrinsic value, it's all about perceived value and if you play this game competitively (which for me means you wanna be good & get better, quite simply) then ladder means A LOT to you, since it is the only way to get consistent practice and compete with others.
You can't say ladder has no value when people get invited to Blizzcon based off ladder performance.
But why would this bother you in ladder? If 4-gating you puts me on equal terms with you because in all other respects you are far better, then I need to play you when I 4 gate. I will increase my skill with my 4-gate until I begin to hit the wall of players that are at least my equal at 4-gating. And there I will stop. At that point, my 4 gate "skill" puts me at the same level as everyone else around me. It doesn't lower your rating to beat me, in respect to rating, 4 gate puts me on even footing with you, and hence....we should be matched up in ladder.
If all you do is 4gate and nothing else you WILL get to a very high rating and on your way there you will maintain a positive winratio and decrease the rating (and MMR) of people that do other strategies.
But the other line of thought is that i learn nothing. And again, why should this concern you? YOU will be just getting more practice against the most common Protoss build on planet earth, while I will be doing what I consider to be fun. Win-win situation. Somehow that makes you angry.
This should concern anyone who is interested in seeing this game evolve past 1-base-allins, who actually wants to see good players play good games. Playing against 4-gate is no fun.
People that 4gate because they don't know anything else slow down the evolution of this game, they're doing the community a disservice by deteriorating the rating of players better than them and staying bad players themselves.
If you're an asshole that only cares about winning, even at the expense of others, then go ahead pick Protoss and do your 4gate day in and day out.
If you are someone who wants to help himself and others understand the game, get better at macroing and don't really care about losing as long as you improve, well, then I guess you're not 4gating on ladder anyway and you can be proud of yourself.
On January 11 2011 11:21 Lorken wrote: Can we please get some mods in here to stop all this discussion of how the game should be played,
I agree, this thread isn't for discussing 4gates but merely the 'challenge' of doing it 100 times in a row, people should discuss this elsewhere.
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On January 12 2011 01:17 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 06:48 Sm3agol wrote:On January 11 2011 05:24 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 03:28 Sm3agol wrote:On January 11 2011 02:59 Chise wrote:On January 11 2011 02:55 iamke55 wrote:On January 11 2011 00:58 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 11 2011 00:16 Sm3agol wrote:On January 10 2011 23:41 FrayzZeUsher wrote:On January 10 2011 23:25 Sm3agol wrote: [quote]
ANNNNNNDD we're done here. I prefer short micro based games. You prefer long macro based games.
We couldn't both be right could we? Amazingly enough, we are both right. And so we do the things in the game we play for FUN, in a way that is FUN for us.
Radical concept, I know, but as far as I know, one base micro gamers win just as many games as multiple base macro gamers. And if 1 basing is "nerfed" then going 4 gate all-in will be a lot less fun due to losing, and hence, I'll stop doing it, because it won't be as fun any more.
Until then, if you see my name come up while laddering, scout your base for proxy warpgates at all times, and prepare for 4-gate/3 gate robo/ DTs etc, because they are coming. In other words you aren't really that good at the game. besides, if you think doing a 4gate or auto winning with DTs against people that are working hard to get better is fun or exciting. I sincerely wish you check your mental state. ROFL? YOU need your mental state checked. I'm having fun. You are working hard and practicing a video game that in all likelihood will never return you a profit. And if I'm bad at the game, then I wouldn't be beating other people's 4 gates or other "micro" based openings. My small group micro and tactical play is pretty solid, and getting better. Your macro and general micro is probably better than mine. So what? I am still winning. If you can't hold off a 4-gate, then get better. SC2 is obviously not a pure macro based game. So why is that the "correct" way to play? The correct way to play is the way that wins and is fun for you. You like macro. I like micro and hate "macro". So if you play me, by god, you're going to have to micro better than me to get to the macro portion of the game, where you will start having fun, and will beat me. If not, I'll have loads of fun baiting your units down your ramp, FF them away from it, and then running up with my units up and raping your base. You'll rage and quit and harass me in chat telling me I suck, and I'll just keep playing the way I like, and keep beating you because I obviously don't know how to play the game. I wouldnt say so, im 16 and improving steadily through constant practice. oh nvm ur an fps player - id expect your standards of 'excitement' to be low enough to enjoy 4gating. Why are you even on this site? This is a forum for Starcraft 2 players, not fastest map nr20 players. If someone can win in 10 minutes when you don't know how to end the game in under 30 minutes, you are hardly in a position to claim the other guy is less skilled. 4 gating is an important skill for high level play, and if you can't do it then you're not good at Protoss. You're wrong. On January 10 2011 12:02 RHMVNovus wrote: No, it doesn't mean you're playing the game wrong at all.
It does mean, however, that less skilled players are reaching high levels, making the ladder system not particularly indicative of skill. This is the whole point. And it's true. If you think it's wrong, then you are just not a good enough player to understand it. Nope you are wrong. I watch pros streams all the time. And they rush and early game cheese/all-in almost more than they do macro games. if you can't 4 gate or defend a 4 gate then you aren't good. It's the most basic protoss build known to man. If it beats you time and time again...don't whine about noobs that can't macro. Yeah, guess why more and more people start losing interest in SC2? Because shit is viable, even on pro level. Just watch BitByBit.Prime play. He has no skill what so ever and still he could make it to Code A. 4 Gate isn't overpowered, it's pretty easy to hold once you know the timing. But there's a difference in being the person who 4gates and being the person who defends. The person who attacks needs no skill at all to do the 4 Gate - All you need to know is: I'm gonna Build my 4 Gates, get my Warpin Tech and then I'm going to attack. Obviously micro helps to make 4 Gate more effective, but that's it. On the other side, the person who defends needs to know a 4gate is coming, else they might lose. So, basically, if 4gate wins, it's not because the person who pulled it off was good, but because his opponent was bad. Hence: Winning with a 4gate doesn't make you a good player. At all. On January 11 2011 03:59 Drunken.Jedi wrote: This makes no sense whatsoever. Why would people getting high ratings from 4 gating invalidate the ladder system?
Is 4 gating somehow cheating? No, clearly not since there is no rule inside or outsider the game against it.
Is 4 gate overpowered? Well, if you think it is, protosses should be 4 gating even more so that Blizzard gets aware of the issue and can do something to fix it. If you don't think 4 gate is cheating or overpowered, then why are you complaining?
Wouldn't it invalidate the rating system even more if players refused to do a strong strategy out of some misplaced sense of honour? As I stated above, 4 gate isn't overpowered. Also, 4 gate isn't cheating. 4 gate is simply a result of the current game design, which is pretty poor if you consider SC2 an esport. The problem with 4gate (and many other allin/cheese plays) is that they don't require skill to pull off, BUT it requires skill do defend such allin/cheese play, because you have to know they are coming and get the right unit mix to defend them. This means that people with lesser skill (4gaters) win against people with higher skill more often than they should, considering that the better out of 2 players should generally win more games. That's the reason I'm complaining. I think SC2 is supposed to be a competitive game where the better player wins, but the current state of the game doesn't make this happen. There seems to be two lines of thought relating to how 4 gating is "bad". And yet you manage to contradict one or the other at all times. One is that its not a true representation of skill level since the attacker can beat the defender more often than their skill level would normally allow. But this argument only holds water if you take ladder to actually mean something, as if it were a tournament of sorts. And yet it is not. It means nothing, it's a number. If we were competing for money, then yes, your argument would be correct. Someone that refuses to learn more than one-base all-ins would be looked down on, because while he would upset some legitimately good players, he would have no chance of proceeding far because there is guaranteed to be someone in the tournament that is at least his equal at one-basing, while also possessing a far superior macro game. This was very evident in the latest Korean matches with 2 rax all-in builds. Sorry, but your argument is absolute bullshit. Nothing in this world has intrinsic value, it's all about perceived value and if you play this game competitively (which for me means you wanna be good & get better, quite simply) then ladder means A LOT to you, since it is the only way to get consistent practice and compete with others. You can't say ladder has no value when people get invited to Blizzcon based off ladder performance. Show nested quote + But why would this bother you in ladder? If 4-gating you puts me on equal terms with you because in all other respects you are far better, then I need to play you when I 4 gate. I will increase my skill with my 4-gate until I begin to hit the wall of players that are at least my equal at 4-gating. And there I will stop. At that point, my 4 gate "skill" puts me at the same level as everyone else around me. It doesn't lower your rating to beat me, in respect to rating, 4 gate puts me on even footing with you, and hence....we should be matched up in ladder.
If all you do is 4gate and nothing else you WILL get to a very high rating and on your way there you will maintain a positive winratio and decrease the rating (and MMR) of people that do other strategies. Show nested quote +
But the other line of thought is that i learn nothing. And again, why should this concern you? YOU will be just getting more practice against the most common Protoss build on planet earth, while I will be doing what I consider to be fun. Win-win situation. Somehow that makes you angry.
This should concern anyone who is interested in seeing this game evolve past 1-base-allins, who actually wants to see good players play good games. Playing against 4-gate is no fun. People that 4gate because they don't know anything else slow down the evolution of this game, they're doing the community a disservice by deteriorating the rating of players better than them and staying bad players themselves. If you're an asshole that only cares about winning, even at the expense of others, then go ahead pick Protoss and do your 4gate day in and day out. If you are someone who wants to help himself and others understand the game, get better at macroing and don't really care about losing as long as you improve, well, then I guess you're not 4gating on ladder anyway and you can be proud of yourself. Show nested quote +On January 11 2011 11:21 Lorken wrote: Can we please get some mods in here to stop all this discussion of how the game should be played, I agree, this thread isn't for discussing 4gates but merely the 'challenge' of doing it 100 times in a row, people should discuss this elsewhere.
All I'm going to say is......you're never going to get away from 4 gates and the like. You still see them in GSL/MLG/any tournament you care to name. And they are not op in any way imaginable. So bitching about people 4-gating their way to high ratings is completely useless. It's not like its a cheesy strategy that quits working once you get to high levels of play. The only difference is people are just way better at it, and can transition out of it successfully more. I don't see the problem. A toss won a farking MLG with basically nothing but 4-gate. Toss has some of the cheesiest openings in the book, and playing against it will only help you, as cheese will never quit being a part of this game.
And yes, I'll keep 4-gating/cheesing all day long. Going to do this 100 4-gate challenge soon, and see what it does for me. Atm, it's not a good indicator, because I actually do super cheese quite a lot, even cheesier than 4-gate(8 gate proxy/cannon rush/etc).
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Hmm I should've joined this challenge earlier. I basically just 4 gate and various other early game things every game (except against terran, unless certain circumstances hold). But... I don't like always sticking to one build regardless of what I see so I guess I won't join in
2721 Diamond Protoss btw, couple hundred bonus pool stocked up as well. Build definitely works well, though you have to transition out sometimes into macro and/or other timing attacks
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I love it when toss 4gates against me. I feel like its an autowin for me cause I 1raxCC . If i scout 4gate i throw down 4 bunkers while teching to cloaked banshees.
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this is for everyone...
all you need other than your natural race is a few hotkeys and if you're not protoss naturally then it should be easy enough
consider it like if you're tired of everyone being terrible and you want to play in higher leagues with real sc players then 4gate until you get there and then start playing! it should be relatively simple
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4 gate is an all in, it isnt cheese. complaining about all ins in an RTS is a stupid train of thought.
Less qq would benefit the community,
BTW Im zerg and lose to four gate alot right now.
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On January 03 2011 23:16 Shikyo wrote:I've been able to refine the 1gas 4gate down to this: http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9217/4gate.jpgCan probably still shave around 5-10 seconds off that, but even like that it's insanely powerful, I don't think anyone below hiiiiigh diamond should be able to defend against that kind of a rush properly. you should be able to get the stalkers warping in at 5:45. usually 4 gate is bottle necked by how fast you can get rid of the enemy scouting worker. i like to chrono out my first stalker for this reason
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On January 23 2011 08:25 Quasimoto3000 wrote: I love it when toss 4gates against me. I feel like its an autowin for me cause I 1raxCC . If i scout 4gate i throw down 4 bunkers while teching to cloaked banshees.
Now what do you do when I have a proxied robo and elevator into your main >:D
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i give an early GG to 4 gaters every time. not because im 100% sure ill beat them its just i hate their guts
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First time doing ladder and I've only been doing 4gates every game so far. Mainly because it's a fairly easy build, can kill most people, and I like to micro.
35games in and I'm mid Gold.
Note I did this because I thought it would be fun and I wasn't following this thread.
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On January 09 2011 06:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 05:23 CurLy[] wrote: shik can you post your BO or a rep, my 4gate is actually pretty unrefined and I've been playing awhile need to tune it up since im gonna start playing at tourneys :D Chronoboosts go this way: first 2 on probes like normal, third one on probes right after placing pylon, rest all on warpgate upgrade Bo is: 9 Pylon 13 Gate 14 Assim 16 Pylon 18 Core 19 Zealot 22 Second Gate, cap probes now(should be 16 on mins 3 on gas 1 around the map placing pylons) 22 Warpgate Tech 22 Stalker 24 Pylon, proxy if you can 24 2 more Gates 24 Stalker 26 Zealot off second gate 28 Proxy Pylon, make sure it finishes in time for warpins 28 Warp tech done the second your Zealot comes out, morph all gates, warp 4 Stalkers, should be done by 5:50 36 Pylon and so on 2 Zealots 6 Stalkers at 5:50, you'll also have some of the most unit-heavy earlygames possible so be sure to pressure with your Zealot and Stalkers as much as you can, most poorly done 4gates will skip some of these early units. It also would be absolutely wonderful if you can force his early sentry to waste a Force Field to hold your 1-2Stalkers and the Zealot. An adjustment I think could be possible is to make one more probe after the 4 stalkers you warp in, it should help you sustain 4gate production better. Actually, you might also be able to sneak a probe in at 28 right after the pylon. Need to look into slipping a few probes into the build since this build runs out of steam after about 3 warp-ins(not like the opponent usually lives past that but...) This build is cleaner than what I see many top level progamers do, and should be good for every level of play in especially PvP. hmm this is an improvement over my usual 4 gate cos you get an early 2nd gate and squeeze an extra unit out of it. might try this
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What people don't realize is that, 3gate > 4gate.
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On January 23 2011 09:50 eveo wrote: What people don't realize is that, 3gate > 4gate. Dropping a very conditional statement without it's conditions is just plain misleading.
Three gating is stronger early because you have the minerals to get the gates up earlier and pump out some units pre-warpgate. Obviously a fourgate is gonna surpass a threegate pretty fast, I would say around the 7 minute mark (depending on execution of course). However, a threegate does transition a whole lot better. Also, most fourgates just simply die vs. very early timing attacks when you have a zealot and a stalker out with 3 gates warping in and wg-tech on the way. A three gate can usually hold an early push.
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People who use 4gate are bad. HuK uses 4gate. HuK is bad.
...??!?!
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On January 23 2011 10:47 Abstinence wrote: People who use 4gate are bad. HuK uses 4gate. HuK is bad.
...??!?!
So does MC and.... yeah.
As well as every other toss in a PvP.
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On January 23 2011 09:35 Mommas Boy wrote: 4 gate is an all in, it isnt cheese. complaining about all ins in an RTS is a stupid train of thought.
Less qq would benefit the community,
BTW Im zerg and lose to four gate alot right now.
And here I thought Roaches counter the 4 gate build or at least let you fend it off until you get mutas... Then again, I'm not a Zerg :I
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well, maybe it is if you go 1 base roach, but a hatch first build usually pops a ton of larvae at around the 6:30 minute mark, but you typically drone up in order to spend money on all of the larvae that come out, so a fast 4 gate hits at around that time or maybe even before... definitely a 1 gas by the protoss is a signal to be alarmed and make adjustments but it is still tough to hold because of this timing
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On January 23 2011 12:03 kyarisan wrote: well, maybe it is if you go 1 base roach, but a hatch first build usually pops a ton of larvae at around the 6:30 minute mark, but you typically drone up in order to spend money on all of the larvae that come out, so a fast 4 gate hits at around that time or maybe even before... definitely a 1 gas by the protoss is a signal to be alarmed and make adjustments but it is still tough to hold because of this timing Then don't build drones... scout. Don't build drones unless they're expanding or teching. 4gate hits around 5:30.
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where is drunken jedi 's points?
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People making threads like this are just poisoning the ladders down...
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On January 23 2011 15:08 Healingproof wrote: People making threads like this are just poisoning the ladders down...
How so? It's a well known build, so people should be very adept at spotting it and dealing with it adequately. Don't make a biased statement just because of your own personal experiences.
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On January 23 2011 09:50 eveo wrote: What people don't realize is that, 3gate > 4gate.
yea, i am like 50-5 these lase two days doing awesome 3 gate attacks. You dont need to cut probes at all and can transition to whatever (if you dont completely destroy them causing rage quits and cheating accusations). The 3 gate build take alot more multitasking and micro to pull off but nothing is better than assaulting someone's base and them not understanding why you have 2-3 times as many units without proxy or all-in.
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On January 23 2011 15:13 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 15:08 Healingproof wrote: People making threads like this are just poisoning the ladders down... How so? It's a well known build, so people should be very adept at spotting it and dealing with it adequately. Don't make a biased statement just because of your own personal experiences. Well. I just find it retarded. I am the kind of guy that loves scouting and I have extremly little problem with cheeses, but cheese games are really boring and time wasting. Making threads promoting players to "4gate/3rax scv allin/6pool" on ladder 100 games in a row is just dumb and pointless. If your goal is to make players rage, fine, but otherwise it's pretty pointless.
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On January 23 2011 10:45 Thenno wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 09:50 eveo wrote: What people don't realize is that, 3gate > 4gate. Dropping a very conditional statement without it's conditions is just plain misleading. Three gating is stronger early because you have the minerals to get the gates up earlier and pump out some units pre-warpgate. Obviously a fourgate is gonna surpass a threegate pretty fast, I would say around the 7 minute mark (depending on execution of course). However, a threegate does transition a whole lot better. Also, most fourgates just simply die vs. very early timing attacks when you have a zealot and a stalker out with 3 gates warping in and wg-tech on the way. A three gate can usually hold an early push.
I modified the 3gate into a 4gate and I believe it's the most powerful 4gate out there right now. Tested against other fours and it holds amazingly.
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On January 23 2011 19:30 eveo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 10:45 Thenno wrote:On January 23 2011 09:50 eveo wrote: What people don't realize is that, 3gate > 4gate. Dropping a very conditional statement without it's conditions is just plain misleading. Three gating is stronger early because you have the minerals to get the gates up earlier and pump out some units pre-warpgate. Obviously a fourgate is gonna surpass a threegate pretty fast, I would say around the 7 minute mark (depending on execution of course). However, a threegate does transition a whole lot better. Also, most fourgates just simply die vs. very early timing attacks when you have a zealot and a stalker out with 3 gates warping in and wg-tech on the way. A three gate can usually hold an early push. I modified the 3gate into a 4gate and I believe it's the most powerful 4gate out there right now. Tested against other fours and it holds amazingly.
I support this statement. I've been testing the 3 gate myself both on ladder and in custom games and it owns!
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On January 23 2011 19:44 Arnstein wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 19:30 eveo wrote:On January 23 2011 10:45 Thenno wrote:On January 23 2011 09:50 eveo wrote: What people don't realize is that, 3gate > 4gate. Dropping a very conditional statement without it's conditions is just plain misleading. Three gating is stronger early because you have the minerals to get the gates up earlier and pump out some units pre-warpgate. Obviously a fourgate is gonna surpass a threegate pretty fast, I would say around the 7 minute mark (depending on execution of course). However, a threegate does transition a whole lot better. Also, most fourgates just simply die vs. very early timing attacks when you have a zealot and a stalker out with 3 gates warping in and wg-tech on the way. A three gate can usually hold an early push. I modified the 3gate into a 4gate and I believe it's the most powerful 4gate out there right now. Tested against other fours and it holds amazingly. I support this statement. I've been testing the 3 gate myself both on ladder and in custom games and it owns!
what is 3 gate? >__>
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The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe.
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On January 23 2011 19:58 Subversion wrote: The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe.
I disagree, scouting includes checking a natural in my opinion. You're right that 4gate would certainly incite more panic and defense, but I feel like if the person is actually good at scouting they will also check to see if you have expanded or not. For example, how many Zerg player are good enough to remember to sac an overlord but then don't park a ling outside of your natural or at a xel naga tower?
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On January 23 2011 14:03 Subversion wrote: where is drunken jedi 's points? Are you asking about the points before and after I did the challenge? If so:
Points before: 1989 (11 bonus pool) Points after 20 games: 2119 (0 bonus pool) Final score: 2268 (0 bonus pool)
If you're asking about right now, I'm ~2.6k in masters.
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Four gate is extremely potent because of warp-gates. they ignore defenders advantage.
I would like to say to the original thread maker in his main post he notes about people whining about 4 gate.
First of all, yes I agree people shouldn't go around whining about it, but being 'outplayed'? I disagree strongly. By no means is 4gating someone outplaying them.
You utilized little to no macro management skills, little multitasking ect. You did a cookie-cut build order and used minimal micro.
Once again, I agree people have to stop whining about it, but 'outplayed' part is just false.
There is a huge difference between defeating someone and outplaying them.
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On January 23 2011 19:58 Subversion wrote: The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe.
Yup that and you get a FUCK ton of more units as well as probes if you execute the build perfectly. I tested this build on my buddies account (bronze) and got 55 wins, 1 loss ahaha, was just perfecting it.
I hit all my timings right and got : 7 zealots 5 stalkers, sentry with 24 probes mining at 6:30 and an expo. If I do the 4gate I made based off the 3gate I can like 1 less unit, but just an extra gate.
It's SO beast.
On January 23 2011 20:31 Smigi wrote: Four gate is extremely potent because of warp-gates. they ignore defenders advantage.
I would like to say to the original thread maker in his main post he notes about people whining about 4 gate.
First of all, yes I agree people shouldn't go around whining about it, but being 'outplayed'? I disagree strongly. By no means is 4gating someone outplaying them.
You utilized little to no macro management skills, little multitasking ect. You did a cookie-cut build order and used minimal micro.
Once again, I agree people have to stop whining about it, but 'outplayed' part is just false.
There is a huge difference between defeating someone and outplaying them.
DERP DERP DERP is what I read on your post. Know why? Because being outplayed has nothing to do with opinion, just game mechanics. Somewhere along the way the opponent didn't defend the 4gate because of many factors, simply means he got outplayed by a 4gate.
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On January 23 2011 20:59 eveo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 19:58 Subversion wrote: The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe. Yup that and you get a FUCK ton of more units as well as probes if you execute the build perfectly. I tested this build on my buddies account (bronze) and got 55 wins, 1 loss ahaha, was just perfecting it. I hit all my timings right and got : 7 zealots 5 stalkers, sentry with 24 probes mining at 6:30 and an expo. If I do the 4gate I made based off the 3gate I can like 1 less unit, but just an extra gate. It's SO beast. Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 20:31 Smigi wrote: Four gate is extremely potent because of warp-gates. they ignore defenders advantage.
I would like to say to the original thread maker in his main post he notes about people whining about 4 gate.
First of all, yes I agree people shouldn't go around whining about it, but being 'outplayed'? I disagree strongly. By no means is 4gating someone outplaying them.
You utilized little to no macro management skills, little multitasking ect. You did a cookie-cut build order and used minimal micro.
Once again, I agree people have to stop whining about it, but 'outplayed' part is just false.
There is a huge difference between defeating someone and outplaying them. DERP DERP DERP is what I read on your post. Know why? Because being outplayed has nothing to do with opinion, just game mechanics. Somewhere along the way the opponent didn't defend the 4gate because of many factors, simply means he got outplayed by a 4gate.
all I read on your post was DERP DERP DERP.
Wanna know why? Because you didn't outplay or outperform your opponent, your opponent just failed at stopping the A+click all-in.
The protoss All-ins the player, its the player whos getting 4 gated who stops it or doesn't. It has nothing to do with the person whos doing the 4 gate all-in.
Sure the Protoss could somewhat micro his units to be slightly more efficient, but at the end of the day your relying on the other player to mess up, not on your macro management or mechanics in order to win.
Please be competent or atleast use your head before you post.
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On January 23 2011 20:59 eveo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 19:58 Subversion wrote: The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe. Yup that and you get a FUCK ton of more units as well as probes if you execute the build perfectly. I tested this build on my buddies account (bronze) and got 55 wins, 1 loss ahaha, was just perfecting it. I hit all my timings right and got : 7 zealots 5 stalkers, sentry with 24 probes mining at 6:30 and an expo. If I do the 4gate I made based off the 3gate I can like 1 less unit, but just an extra gate. It's SO beast. Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 20:31 Smigi wrote: Four gate is extremely potent because of warp-gates. they ignore defenders advantage.
I would like to say to the original thread maker in his main post he notes about people whining about 4 gate.
First of all, yes I agree people shouldn't go around whining about it, but being 'outplayed'? I disagree strongly. By no means is 4gating someone outplaying them.
You utilized little to no macro management skills, little multitasking ect. You did a cookie-cut build order and used minimal micro.
Once again, I agree people have to stop whining about it, but 'outplayed' part is just false.
There is a huge difference between defeating someone and outplaying them. DERP DERP DERP is what I read on your post. Know why? Because being outplayed has nothing to do with opinion, just game mechanics. Somewhere along the way the opponent didn't defend the 4gate because of many factors, simply means he got outplayed by a 4gate.
errm okay, so if you 6 pool a 14 hatch, that is still "outplaying" according to your books? Saying 4 gating a player = outplaying is like saying you "outplayed" somebody in a game of rock paper scissors ~_~
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On January 23 2011 22:51 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 20:59 eveo wrote:On January 23 2011 19:58 Subversion wrote: The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe. Yup that and you get a FUCK ton of more units as well as probes if you execute the build perfectly. I tested this build on my buddies account (bronze) and got 55 wins, 1 loss ahaha, was just perfecting it. I hit all my timings right and got : 7 zealots 5 stalkers, sentry with 24 probes mining at 6:30 and an expo. If I do the 4gate I made based off the 3gate I can like 1 less unit, but just an extra gate. It's SO beast. On January 23 2011 20:31 Smigi wrote: Four gate is extremely potent because of warp-gates. they ignore defenders advantage.
I would like to say to the original thread maker in his main post he notes about people whining about 4 gate.
First of all, yes I agree people shouldn't go around whining about it, but being 'outplayed'? I disagree strongly. By no means is 4gating someone outplaying them.
You utilized little to no macro management skills, little multitasking ect. You did a cookie-cut build order and used minimal micro.
Once again, I agree people have to stop whining about it, but 'outplayed' part is just false.
There is a huge difference between defeating someone and outplaying them. DERP DERP DERP is what I read on your post. Know why? Because being outplayed has nothing to do with opinion, just game mechanics. Somewhere along the way the opponent didn't defend the 4gate because of many factors, simply means he got outplayed by a 4gate. errm okay, so if you 6 pool a 14 hatch, that is still "outplaying" according to your books? Saying 4 gating a player = outplaying is like saying you "outplayed" somebody in a game of rock paper scissors ~_~
Actually there's a huge difference between MC doing a 4 gate and random silver level toss doing a 4 gate (or even average master toss). And as for your question, yes beating a 14 hatch with a 6 pool can be considered outplaying since it is in fact possible to win with 14 hatch against 6 pool. It mainly comes down to your zergling micro and your opponents drone micro.
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Um, being outplayed has nothing to do with how shitty a build is. If that build beat you, you got outplayed by a shitty build.
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The 3gate 6:30 attack with 7 zeal/5 stalkers has been around for awhile, I picked it up when HuK mentioned he had a lot of problems with it on the Korean ladder. I've had reasonable succes with it in PvP, smashing most early zeal and robo builds, and also the occasional 4gate. However, the recent 5:45 1 zeal/5 stalker with a additional +4 zealot following soon is pretty hard to hold since they can contain you if you don't establish map control and switch into robo or blinkstalker tech, or expand. If you can establish early map control you can hold it of, but the 4gater usually gets a sentry and turtles up to collossi when he can't get the proxy pylon up.
Personally I only use the 3gate nowadays on Macrolopolis (and sometimes DQ) close position, and Steppes of War. On bigger maps, your zealots just have to walk too far before warpgates finish and it'll delay your attack too much (critical point is the first immortal from robo builds, if they have a sentry to cut you on the ramp, that's usually around 7:00, if they get the immortal earlier you can usually win because they cut too much gateway units and will simply be overwhelmed).
Transitioning from 3gate to fourgate works well though, if you're trading units with the oppo get an additional gateway asap or you're going to lose. Robo doesn't cut it usually for me.
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Just an update on my status: 21 games in 697 points on silver (just got promoted ) I'm going really slow on this, but I'm trying to make up a new build order on my SEA account.
Also as I said before, if you aren't interested in doing this challenge, or think 4 gate is gay, please shut the fuck up and get out of this thread, we don't give a shit what you think and none of your bitching is ever going to change that. You are all just begging for attention, and trying to show off how good you are. If you can't handle 4 gate, you don't deserve to even be playing macro games, any idiot can mass up units and "play well" when he has resources coming off 4 bases.
Also, 4 gaters, if you can't ignore the troll posts by people here, i suggest you also get out of this thread, you are also part of the shit that is clogging this tread. Please mods, we need you now more than ever!!
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the new build is....
4-gate robo!!!!
I swear thats all i see from people, get 1 or 2 immortals from the robo then go pure gateway units....so glad 2-gate > 4-gate
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On January 24 2011 10:27 Lorken wrote:Just an update on my status: 21 games in 697 points on silver (just got promoted ) I'm going really slow on this, but I'm trying to make up a new build order on my SEA account. Also as I said before, if you aren't interested in doing this challenge, or think 4 gate is gay, please shut the fuck up and get out of this thread, we don't give a shit what you think and none of your bitching is ever going to change that. You are all just begging for attention, and trying to show off how good you are. If you can't handle 4 gate, you don't deserve to even be playing macro games, any idiot can mass up units and "play well" when he has resources coming off 4 bases. Also, 4 gaters, if you can't ignore the troll posts by people here, i suggest you also get out of this thread, you are also part of the shit that is clogging this tread. Please mods, we need you now more than ever!!
so this is somehow "your" thread and we can't post our opinions on it? Sounds a bit arrogant to tell people to get out of a thread isn't it? If you don't like that discussion, then don't respond to it. No need to throw a psyche...
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On January 24 2011 10:40 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 10:27 Lorken wrote:Just an update on my status: 21 games in 697 points on silver (just got promoted ) I'm going really slow on this, but I'm trying to make up a new build order on my SEA account. Also as I said before, if you aren't interested in doing this challenge, or think 4 gate is gay, please shut the fuck up and get out of this thread, we don't give a shit what you think and none of your bitching is ever going to change that. You are all just begging for attention, and trying to show off how good you are. If you can't handle 4 gate, you don't deserve to even be playing macro games, any idiot can mass up units and "play well" when he has resources coming off 4 bases. Also, 4 gaters, if you can't ignore the troll posts by people here, i suggest you also get out of this thread, you are also part of the shit that is clogging this tread. Please mods, we need you now more than ever!! so this is somehow "your" thread and we can't post our opinions on it? Sounds a bit arrogant to tell people to get out of a thread isn't it? If you don't like that discussion, then don't respond to it. No need to throw a psyche... I'm pissed because only 1/10 of the posts here are relevant to the topic, and I have something against people being off topic, this thread is about the 4 gate challenge, in the Starcraft General forum, if somebody want's to discuss why 4-gating is an illegitimate way of playing starcraft, then I suggest they make a thread about that in the strategy forum.
On topic: I know this is kind of stupid, but 6 pool is usually easy to fight off with a 4 gate build, but it's pretty hard to scout on large maps if you scout after putting the gateway down, and sometimes you don't see it, which is still fine because you have a zealot there, and the dumber ones back off (even though imo they shouldn't). But of the ones that push and kill the zealot, most of them go on to attack the probes, but the smarter ones (I guess) stay and start killing a pylon, am I supposed to sacrifice probes to kill them or wait for the stalker to spawn? Because sometimes they are lucky and kill the pylon which is basically gg.
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On January 24 2011 10:27 Lorken wrote: any idiot can mass up units and "play well" when he has resources coming off 4 bases.
Try it and show us the results please.
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On January 24 2011 08:19 Thenno wrote: The 3gate 6:30 attack with 7 zeal/5 stalkers has been around for awhile, I picked it up when HuK mentioned he had a lot of problems with it on the Korean ladder. I've had reasonable succes with it in PvP, smashing most early zeal and robo builds, and also the occasional 4gate. However, the recent 5:45 1 zeal/5 stalker with a additional +4 zealot following soon is pretty hard to hold since they can contain you if you don't establish map control and switch into robo or blinkstalker tech, or expand. If you can establish early map control you can hold it of, but the 4gater usually gets a sentry and turtles up to collossi when he can't get the proxy pylon up.
Personally I only use the 3gate nowadays on Macrolopolis (and sometimes DQ) close position, and Steppes of War. On bigger maps, your zealots just have to walk too far before warpgates finish and it'll delay your attack too much (critical point is the first immortal from robo builds, if they have a sentry to cut you on the ramp, that's usually around 7:00, if they get the immortal earlier you can usually win because they cut too much gateway units and will simply be overwhelmed).
Transitioning from 3gate to fourgate works well though, if you're trading units with the oppo get an additional gateway asap or you're going to lose. Robo doesn't cut it usually for me.
Ooooo interesting, can you show me a replay of the 5:45? It sounds deadly as fuck.
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pls post the build order for the 3gate thing
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On January 24 2011 15:22 snafulator wrote: pls post the build order for the 3gate thing
Here you go:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171264
Download the replay by Blink, he executes it perfectly. I practiced the build well over 80 times to get the timings down PERFECTLY. Once you do that, it's so effective and you can just modify it from there based on what you scout.
I open with this build every game since it defends any cheese, early pressure and the like. So once I get the initial build down at 6:30 I decide if I want to push, so I scout and if they have a weak force going I will push, proxy pylon and win, or I will just probe up super hard and expand.
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On January 25 2011 01:08 eveo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 15:22 snafulator wrote: pls post the build order for the 3gate thing Here you go: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=171264Download the replay by Blink, he executes it perfectly. I practiced the build well over 80 times to get the timings down PERFECTLY. Once you do that, it's so effective and you can just modify it from there based on what you scout. I open with this build every game since it defends any cheese, early pressure and the like. So once I get the initial build down at 6:30 I decide if I want to push, so I scout and if they have a weak force going I will push, proxy pylon and win, or I will just probe up super hard and expand. thank you <3
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On January 24 2011 13:56 eveo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 08:19 Thenno wrote: The 3gate 6:30 attack with 7 zeal/5 stalkers has been around for awhile, I picked it up when HuK mentioned he had a lot of problems with it on the Korean ladder. I've had reasonable succes with it in PvP, smashing most early zeal and robo builds, and also the occasional 4gate. However, the recent 5:45 1 zeal/5 stalker with a additional +4 zealot following soon is pretty hard to hold since they can contain you if you don't establish map control and switch into robo or blinkstalker tech, or expand. If you can establish early map control you can hold it of, but the 4gater usually gets a sentry and turtles up to collossi when he can't get the proxy pylon up.
Personally I only use the 3gate nowadays on Macrolopolis (and sometimes DQ) close position, and Steppes of War. On bigger maps, your zealots just have to walk too far before warpgates finish and it'll delay your attack too much (critical point is the first immortal from robo builds, if they have a sentry to cut you on the ramp, that's usually around 7:00, if they get the immortal earlier you can usually win because they cut too much gateway units and will simply be overwhelmed).
Transitioning from 3gate to fourgate works well though, if you're trading units with the oppo get an additional gateway asap or you're going to lose. Robo doesn't cut it usually for me. Ooooo interesting, can you show me a replay of the 5:45? It sounds deadly as fuck. 1 Zeal 5 Stalker at 5:45 vs 2 Zeal 6 Stalker at 5:48... doesn't sound too amazing to me.
Also I have no idea why anyone would do 7 Zeal 5 Stalker at 6:30 when you can do it at 6:15 with 6 Zeal 6 Stalker even.
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I'm wondering (and this is a serious question, not intended to be whining or anything about imbalance) why people keep trying new builds like this 3 Gate Allin instead of learning how to play the game? On a long run, it's probably about 100 times more effective if you learn to play a macro game. I can't see those Allin builds still be good in a year or two, simply because the more people play, the more they get used to the builds they play against.
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The 3 gate play isn't really an all in Chise. Its almost always a transition to something else (like an expo!). But it gets enough units that if you scout your opponent and he went too tech heavy or decided on an FE, you can punish them. I think someone pointed out a while ago that producing out of 4 gates from 1 base was not actually the most efficient way to produce gateway units, and a well done 3 gate can beat a 4 gate. (I don't actually believe 1 base is enough to produce off 4 gateways constantly, maybe zeals and sentries)
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lol god if alot of people did this it would probably mess with the ladder so much, especially if most of the people were diamond/masters level, imagine if someone made a 100 6pool thread to see how many diamond/masters players would try it
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On January 25 2011 05:51 Chise wrote: I'm wondering (and this is a serious question, not intended to be whining or anything about imbalance) why people keep trying new builds like this 3 Gate Allin instead of learning how to play the game? On a long run, it's probably about 100 times more effective if you learn to play a macro game. I can't see those Allin builds still be good in a year or two, simply because the more people play, the more they get used to the builds they play against.
Ever heard of a timing push or are you bronze? Push at 6:30 + expo, retreat if its failing. I love how everyone who gets pushed at a certain time things it's a total all-in when it's not. Why would I deliberately elongate the game when the goal is to win as fast as possible (at least for me).
I see zero fun in 4base 30min play, just constant reinforcements of units when your minerals and gas are >5k seems too easy for me. I like really intense micro battles that may cost you the game and that's where my fun comes from.
Can't defend a timing push? Too bad, learn to.
On January 25 2011 06:04 oNSarcasm wrote: lol god if alot of people did this it would probably mess with the ladder so much, especially if most of the people were diamond/masters level, imagine if someone made a 100 6pool thread to see how many diamond/masters players would try it
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187413
Done.
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On January 23 2011 20:59 eveo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 19:58 Subversion wrote: The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe. Yup that and you get a FUCK ton of more units as well as probes if you execute the build perfectly. I tested this build on my buddies account (bronze) and got 55 wins, 1 loss ahaha, was just perfecting it. I hit all my timings right and got : 7 zealots 5 stalkers, sentry with 24 probes mining at 6:30 and an expo. If I do the 4gate I made based off the 3gate I can like 1 less unit, but just an extra gate. It's SO beast. Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 20:31 Smigi wrote: Four gate is extremely potent because of warp-gates. they ignore defenders advantage.
I would like to say to the original thread maker in his main post he notes about people whining about 4 gate.
First of all, yes I agree people shouldn't go around whining about it, but being 'outplayed'? I disagree strongly. By no means is 4gating someone outplaying them.
You utilized little to no macro management skills, little multitasking ect. You did a cookie-cut build order and used minimal micro.
Once again, I agree people have to stop whining about it, but 'outplayed' part is just false.
There is a huge difference between defeating someone and outplaying them. DERP DERP DERP is what I read on your post. Know why? Because being outplayed has nothing to do with opinion, just game mechanics. Somewhere along the way the opponent didn't defend the 4gate because of many factors, simply means he got outplayed by a 4gate. If I go 3rax all-in with scvs and win (which i sometimes do vs T and Z) would you call it outskilling? I make 3 barracks, pump marines til 27food, move out with a nearly unstoppable force that early, will most likely win. Took no skills what so ever to execute (well, harder than 4gate but still). I think you missunderstood the phrase "outskill". Winning=/= outskilling. If someone 6pools, they make a pool, 6 zerglings and that's it, there's no skills in a-moving mate;)
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On January 26 2011 10:47 Healingproof wrote: If I go 3rax all-in with scvs and win (which i sometimes do vs T and Z) would you call it outskilling? I make 3 barracks, pump marines til 27food, move out with a nearly unstoppable force that early, will most likely win. Took no skills what so ever to execute (well, harder than 4gate but still). I think you missunderstood the phrase "outskill". Winning=/= outskilling. If someone 6pools, they make a pool, 6 zerglings and that's it, there's no skills in a-moving mate;) Who said "outskilled" besides you? The argument is, if you lose a game to a 4 gate, you got outplayed. By outplayed, we don't mean that the 4 gater is "better than in all situations," or "clearly more skilled at the game."
But if you are looking at the defeat screen, you definitely got outplayed that game. In fact I'd argue that you got outplayed by the very definition of the word. Maybe the P didn't play exceedingly well, even if the 4 gate was executed flawlessly, it's not that demanding of a strategy. What you are noticing is that it wasn't your opponent's fault you lost; you managed to play worse than a common strategy. You made a mistake to lose to a 4 gate. Maybe it wasn't one you could have avoided in that situation, maybe it was. You can either take responsibility and play better so you stop getting outplayed so often, or you can uselessly complain that the people crushing you with a common strategy aren't skilled enough to lose to you.
If you use that 3 rax build and you manage to beat me, you definitely outplayed me that game. Maybe because I tried to expand and didn't cancel/abandon and move up/ff my ramp. Maybe my scouting was off, or mechanically I effed up my build and was a stalker behind? I don't know, but when you take responsibility for your losses you'll see new ways of dealing with problems.
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On January 26 2011 10:47 Healingproof wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 20:59 eveo wrote:On January 23 2011 19:58 Subversion wrote: The strength of a 3-gate is that if its scouted, people expect a 3-gate expand build.
When someone scouts 4-gate, they know exactly whats coming and immediately start massing defense. If you scout 3-gates you feel a lot more safe. Yup that and you get a FUCK ton of more units as well as probes if you execute the build perfectly. I tested this build on my buddies account (bronze) and got 55 wins, 1 loss ahaha, was just perfecting it. I hit all my timings right and got : 7 zealots 5 stalkers, sentry with 24 probes mining at 6:30 and an expo. If I do the 4gate I made based off the 3gate I can like 1 less unit, but just an extra gate. It's SO beast. On January 23 2011 20:31 Smigi wrote: Four gate is extremely potent because of warp-gates. they ignore defenders advantage.
I would like to say to the original thread maker in his main post he notes about people whining about 4 gate.
First of all, yes I agree people shouldn't go around whining about it, but being 'outplayed'? I disagree strongly. By no means is 4gating someone outplaying them.
You utilized little to no macro management skills, little multitasking ect. You did a cookie-cut build order and used minimal micro.
Once again, I agree people have to stop whining about it, but 'outplayed' part is just false.
There is a huge difference between defeating someone and outplaying them. DERP DERP DERP is what I read on your post. Know why? Because being outplayed has nothing to do with opinion, just game mechanics. Somewhere along the way the opponent didn't defend the 4gate because of many factors, simply means he got outplayed by a 4gate. If I go 3rax all-in with scvs and win (which i sometimes do vs T and Z) would you call it outskilling? I make 3 barracks, pump marines til 27food, move out with a nearly unstoppable force that early, will most likely win. Took no skills what so ever to execute (well, harder than 4gate but still). I think you missunderstood the phrase "outskill". Winning=/= outskilling. If someone 6pools, they make a pool, 6 zerglings and that's it, there's no skills in a-moving mate;) 4gate actually isn't that easy to do, you need to remember to reinforce manually since you can't just queue stuff with purely hotkeys, you need to get the build down properly, and you need to have decent micro.
There's many, many ways to fail with a 4gate, you really understand how difficult it is when you PvP 4gate vs 4gate and see that even most high Diamond/low masters Protosses fail at doing 4gate. You even see many progamers do 4gates poorly, clearly it isn't something a brainless can do properly.
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On January 25 2011 05:51 Chise wrote: I'm wondering (and this is a serious question, not intended to be whining or anything about imbalance) why people keep trying new builds like this 3 Gate Allin instead of learning how to play the game? On a long run, it's probably about 100 times more effective if you learn to play a macro game. I can't see those Allin builds still be good in a year or two, simply because the more people play, the more they get used to the builds they play against.
The reason why is because if you have builds built for a macro game but lose in the first 7 minutes, then it doesn't matter if your build was good or not. The 1gas 4gate limits the variety of builds you can do and you have to be prepared for this build before it even hits you. There are 3 builds that I am currently aware of that can hold this off: 1gas 4gate, Sentry Robo, and a build that was explained to me earlier today as a 3gate zealot build which gets you 6zealots 4 stalker instead of 5zealot 6 stalker.
The reason why these builds will ALWAYS be around is because of the in-game mechanic that it relies on; warpgate. No matter how big the map is, if they scout you before 5:50 seconds this build is viable.
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Name/ID: Munsy.943 Division: Silver (Rank 17) Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 595 (1928 Bonus pool) Points 11 Games into challenge: 861 (currently 11-0, Silver Rank 9) Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Coming SOON ( and not in the blizzard sense)
I figure I'll be a good example to study from as I'm quickly rising through the ranks now and I'll probably either hit diamond or platinum very quickly if this winning streak continues...
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On January 25 2011 05:51 Chise wrote: I'm wondering (and this is a serious question, not intended to be whining or anything about imbalance) why people keep trying new builds like this 3 Gate Allin instead of learning how to play the game? On a long run, it's probably about 100 times more effective if you learn to play a macro game. I can't see those Allin builds still be good in a year or two, simply because the more people play, the more they get used to the builds they play against. Roll on the farking floor laughing. I love how ANY play that isn't pure macro oriented is a one-base all-in now. If armies touch before the 15 minute mark, or before 3 bases are up and running, then you aren't playing the game properly. WTF?
I for one play to have fun and win. I want to get better too, but if that means I have to implement the 15 minute no touching rule, then screw that. No, learning a macro game is not 100 times more effective, not at all. If that were the case then people wouldn't be making the GSL semis by 2 rax all-inn-ing. I'm not advocating getting rid of all macro play in favor of all-inning, but for crying aloud, armies are allowed to touch before you get 3 bases up.
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Not every play that isn't macro is Allin. It's just that if you lose a 4 gate, you are behind because you lost all of your units and you are still on one base, while your opponent is on 2 bases in most of the cases. He can probably delay your expansion a little more, which puts him in the lead even more. This means, it's practically Allin.
As I didn't really know how this 3 Gate Build worked, I called it an Allin because that's the impression I got from reading. If it's not, that's fine.
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hmm the only thing that this "challenge" will tell us is if it is beneficial to practice 1 build order and get very efficient at it or try to do things you havent done over and over again in 100 best of 1's...
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Name/ID: sCFade.242 Division: Master's Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 3000 Final score: TBA
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How is anefficient 3 gate, 1 gas scouting pressure all in by any means? Probes are never being cut, and all tech paths are open after the pressure. One is never behind, and I bet a robo + obs can get out before banshee, if the scouting pressure senses banshee. I actually think this pressure build could become a base for all P v anything.
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On January 25 2011 06:04 oNSarcasm wrote: lol god if alot of people did this it would probably mess with the ladder so much, especially if most of the people were diamond/masters level, imagine if someone made a 100 6pool thread to see how many diamond/masters players would try it well, look what happened http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=187413
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UPDATE
Name/ID: Munsy.943 Division: Silver (Rank 17) Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 595 (1928 Bonus pool) Points 25 Games into challenge: 913 (currently 22-3, Gold Rank 22 with 1652 Bonus pool) Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Coming SOON
I lost three games today. One was to a better warp gate push, one was to a 3 gate push, and one was because I fucked up my build against a Zerg. Other than that, I've won 22 out of 25 games, and I just beat a rank 9 Diamond Protoss.
More to come... if anyone wants to watch it happen, I'm streaming whenever I ladder. It should be on the Live User Streams. :D <3
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Name/ID: TriGoon Division: Bronze Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 1245 (1400? Bonus pool) Points 20 Games into challenge: 1699 Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Coming SOON
Just to improve my basic mechanics I'm going to try this out. 20 games in, I have 19 wins 1 loss. Bronzies really can't handle this build, even though I mess it up 100% of the time in some way.
Well, technically i guess I'm against golds right now. But started out against bronze players.
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Name/ID: eightBiT.953 Division: Bronze Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 887 (1696 Bonus pool) Points 20 Games into challenge: 1260 Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Coming SOON
16-4 so far. All the losses so far have been from 1 base zergs who are managing to match my numbers with Roaches. What do?
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Micro your stalkers, hit them before they get out a large number of roaches, and/or build a stargate.
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On January 30 2011 06:15 eight.BiT wrote:
16-4 so far. All the losses so far have been from 1 base zergs who are managing to match my numbers with Roaches. What do?
Better micro of stalkers. I've had this happen, I just made sure i kept the zealot numbers up so that they wouldn't be hitting my stalkers, and focus fired each one with stalkers. A-moving will let them live alot longer.
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I haven't really seen people posting their fastest time you warp in units. I think the fastest I started warping in my units is 5:35 but usually it's 4:40. Has anyone been able to get a faster time?
Edit: I guess unit composition is important too. I think had a zealot and stalker and was warping in 3 stalkers and 1 zealot. It's a 12 gate
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I'm using a build posted earlier in the thread for the challenge. 13 gate, have 2 Zealots and 6 stalkers 5:50 at your proxy.
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Australia8532 Posts
lol this made me want to try Protoss.. i had 8 wins 2 losses lol .. now i split my time between Protoss and Terran
i was going: 9 pylon 12 gate 14 gas 15 pylon 17 cyber core 18 zealot 20 stalker (cut probes) then wing it from there with when to chuck down the three extra gates and forward pylon etc
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So I thought 4-gate died with the patch that increased warp cooldown? Is this the same 4 warpgate rush that is under the Starcraft 2 Liquipedia page?
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On January 09 2011 06:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 05:23 CurLy[] wrote: shik can you post your BO or a rep, my 4gate is actually pretty unrefined and I've been playing awhile need to tune it up since im gonna start playing at tourneys :D Chronoboosts go this way: first 2 on probes like normal, third one on probes right after placing pylon, rest all on warpgate upgrade Bo is: 9 Pylon 13 Gate 14 Assim 16 Pylon 18 Core 19 Zealot 22 Second Gate, cap probes now(should be 16 on mins 3 on gas 1 around the map placing pylons) 22 Warpgate Tech 22 Stalker 24 Pylon, proxy if you can 24 2 more Gates 24 Stalker 26 Zealot off second gate 28 Proxy Pylon, make sure it finishes in time for warpins 28 Warp tech done the second your Zealot comes out, morph all gates, warp 4 Stalkers, should be done by 5:50 36 Pylon and so on 2 Zealots 6 Stalkers at 5:50, you'll also have some of the most unit-heavy earlygames possible so be sure to pressure with your Zealot and Stalkers as much as you can, most poorly done 4gates will skip some of these early units. It also would be absolutely wonderful if you can force his early sentry to waste a Force Field to hold your 1-2Stalkers and the Zealot. An adjustment I think could be possible is to make one more probe after the 4 stalkers you warp in, it should help you sustain 4gate production better. Actually, you might also be able to sneak a probe in at 28 right after the pylon. Need to look into slipping a few probes into the build since this build runs out of steam after about 3 warp-ins(not like the opponent usually lives past that but...) This build is cleaner than what I see many top level progamers do, and should be good for every level of play in especially PvP. Just went against a similar build and crushed it with my 2 gas eco 4 gate =\ (he was ~2900 diamond). I then proceeded to completely outmacro him since I had a lot more probes already, and it just went straight downhill for him.
Also, isnt that extra zealot you build a bit of a waste for an aggressive 4gate build like this considering it has to move all the way across the map to meet with the rest of your units that are warping in?
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I am feeling that the last zealot is only really useable in close position spawns, or short maps - on cross positions or long ground distance it simply doesnt get there in time.
However, it does arrive at some point in the battle, and this is always nice considering you have enough money to warp in 4 units each time, it counts as an extra unit for your army you wouldnt have got otherwise (due to unit cap from warp ins)
So always worth getting, just not always useful on the initial engagement :p
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On January 31 2011 21:22 resilve wrote: I am feeling that the last zealot is only really useable in close position spawns, or short maps - on cross positions or long ground distance it simply doesnt get there in time.
However, it does arrive at some point in the battle, and this is always nice considering you have enough money to warp in 4 units each time, it counts as an extra unit for your army you wouldnt have got otherwise (due to unit cap from warp ins)
So always worth getting, just not always useful on the initial engagement :p True that itll come eventually, but perhaps an extra 2 probes would yield better results instead? That little bit of extra econ could mean you can get more units out in the long run since you can use chrono on gates...
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Name/ID: TheSaltyMan Division Start: Unranked Division Current: Platinum Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 0 (1400? Bonus pool) Points 95 Games into challenge: 937 Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Too lazy to upload; zerg player doing this for fun... and spite
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Well I posted earlier Jan 30th and uh.. I lost count of my games. Anyway, in 13 days of practicing my 4 gate (not playing every day.. prob around 100 games) I'm R34 Platinum 140W-104L up from R22 Bronze. Honestly not every game was a 4 gate but most were.
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UPDATE
Name/ID: Munsy.943 Division: Silver (Rank 17) Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": 595 (1928 Bonus pool) Points 40 Games into challenge: 987 (currently 28-12, Platinum Rank 73 with 1789 Bonus pool) Final score: Unknown Replay pack: Coming SOON
It put me against a 2.6k Zerg earlier, so I might be looking at another promotion here pretty soon. I was intending on having this done in less than a week but I've been slacking on the ladder lately.I'll hopefully have it done in a few days.
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Is 4gate possible against terran ? I think it works great vs Z and P but I can't figure how it is going vs T.
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On February 20 2011 07:38 Gros Bill wrote: Is 4gate possible against terran ? I think it works great vs Z and P but I can't figure how it is going vs T. It's perfect until you get high enough in rank that Terrans stop walling and throw up 2 bunkers instead, which for me was Plat.
Snipe his Depot in his wall with your 6 stalkers, which will not only let you in but supply cap him so he has no reinforcements. Of course if it's Delta Quadrant you can just warp into the back of his base, and Blistering Sands has the backdoor rocks.
EDIT: Keep in mind too Terrans will stutter step you back and forth to their bunkers, so send like 2 zealots at the mineral line. Then the Terran has to choose to lose his SCVs or jump out of the bunkers. Once he's outta those bunkers you can take him.
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On January 31 2011 04:40 Defeat wrote: I haven't really seen people posting their fastest time you warp in units. I think the fastest I started warping in my units is 5:35 but usually it's 4:40. Has anyone been able to get a faster time?
Edit: I guess unit composition is important too. I think had a zealot and stalker and was warping in 3 stalkers and 1 zealot. It's a 12 gate Have 3 Stalkers 1 Zealot and start warping in 3 Stalkers 1 Zealot at 5:43
On February 20 2011 07:38 Gros Bill wrote: Is 4gate possible against terran ? I think it works great vs Z and P but I can't figure how it is going vs T. I suggest sentries and FFs to block repair
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lol, I did this yesterday for the fuck of it... happy and annoyed I did...
started off 2850 platinum, and i went.... 30-6 with 5 stalkers and 1 zealot at 6:00. Started putting me up against masters players until I got roflstomped and got promoted to 3,000 point diamond. Holding my own.... but still losing 60-65% of my matches. Ah well, better to learn against good comp. anyways I guess, but I'm done with this "challenge".
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21-0 and counting. all 20 probe 1 gas in every match up
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Friend of mine just gave me access to his account cause he doesn't play anymore. Figured this challenge would be a fun way to use it. He only played 3 placement matches (lost all 3 I think) so that's where I'm starting off.
Should be interesting.
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This thread angers me.
>...<
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Name/ID: AngryBacon.624 Division: Master Points before "Hundred 4Gate Challenge": Diamond 191 (0 bonus pool) Final score: Master 209 Replay pack: [url blocked]
What do I win?
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I will take the 4gate challenge! I will be back to post the details in 5 days.
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"Challenege" accepted. Will post in a few days too.
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I'm pretty sure every protoss has accomplished this goal in the last 2 weeks.
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I seem to lose every time I 4 Gate *mental note* Zealots in front of Stalkers
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Pretty sure this challenge will gimp yourself when the goal has been completed!
4G4L.
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On April 13 2011 23:02 aquanda wrote: I'm pretty sure every protoss has accomplished this goal in the last 2 weeks.
I only 4g PvP on tal'darim, no other matchups/maps. Its not that great once you start climbing in masters.
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So, how is this challenge since the wp +20s patch ?
Any new timing came for the 4gates ? Is it least efficient ?
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Here's my replay pack from season 1 hah... little late. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13698112/Replays.rar + Show Spoiler +On November 28 2010 08:37 Dotemup wrote:Doing this, I've been Ranked 1/2 Silver for a while and I figure I might as well gtfo right? Start of 100 4-Gate Challenge ----------------------------- Dotemup-Protoss Silver - 1588 (205 Bonus) W/L - 154/145 20% ----------------------------- Dotemup-Protoss Silver - 1859 (58 Bonus) W/L - 168/151 30% (24 Games in Promoted) ----------------------------- Dotemup-Protoss Gold - 1851 (0 Bonus) W/L - 177/152 50% (47 Games in Promoted) ----------------------------- Dotemup-Protoss Plat - 1802 (0 Bonus) W/L - 189/160 Replay Pack Link - When Finished >.> Edit: Added 50% stats! Side note: I've been watching replays of my games... man I do a lot of dumb things. And I've been varying the 4 gate slightly each game to see what works where and I've found a lot of weird timings. All for fun though!
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Sorry, what's special about 100 one base all ins? Maybe back in november but after almost a year? -_-
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The 4 gate is pretty much only relevant in the PvP matchup now ever since the patch.
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