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On November 16 2010 15:07 MaD.pYrO wrote:
A nerf to High Templar would be pure garbage - the choice between High Templar or Colossus is pretty tough right now at best, if HT were to be nerfed Colossus would just be the only choice - and i don't know about you, but i like having a choice.
The main issue seems to be that terran is balanced about going bio, and just as in BW i just can't see bio winning over storm, even considering how "bad" storm is now in regards to it's BW counterpart.
Both need to be nerfed. Colossus are a staple in every single match up. Storm, like it was in the early days of Starcraft, is too powerful for the energy, currently. What ended up happening in SC1 is they ended up lowering the damage and increasing the length of the spell. I don't think a damage reduction is really necessary here, as a Terran player, but increasing the length of the spell so that damage doesn't happen so quickly would be a change in the right direction.
But with both of these units now more reasonable, toss would never really be able to compete with the other two races, because they aren't strong until they have 1 of the 2 (and not always then, either). Gateway units need a buff of some kind, but that's a nightmare to think about without ruining one of their 3 match ups. For instance, any early game buff would inevitably lead to protoss 4-warp gating each other again.
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Buff first, nerf later. =(
Any tweaks to Protoss will be uncompensated nerfs, that's how Blizzard treats its red-headed stepchild.
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these types of threads are starting to annoy me so im gonna rant with impulsive thoughts.
Firstly these statistics are meaningless and i dont understand why the global statistics was even mentioned.
Its like stating that 85% of the population would have trouble driving a F1 car properly. Is there something wrong with the F1 car that makes it so hard to drive? do the designers have to make changes to make it easier to steer?
well 85% of the population doesnt have the SKILL to drive a F1 car, so the statistic is meaningless. You need to take into consideration testing the car with the best drivers in the circuit and make changes based upon that.
Same analogy can be used for any sport with any sort of equipment or skill.
Would you compare golf clubs/tennis racquets using random weekend golf/tennis enthusiasts? performance wise you would test with skilled golfers.
Same thing applies in sc2, the race is the equipment/tool being utilized by the player, why would you consider bronze->plat/low diamond at ALL. One could go to the extreme and say keeping track of the statistics at these levels is a waste of resources (not saying it I believe it is, but its a valid argument).
Everyone knows what blizzard is trying to do is balance the game at all levels, thats like trying to create one set of rules which the professionals AS well as the weekend enthusiasts all use. that is literally not possible for the majority of sports. Have you played <insert sport> with your friends on saturday or sundays and you guys add your own rules or change the rules to keep things fair? well thats what the lower leagues need to keep them balanced while blizzard balances the top flight.
I would like to lower leagues playing with a different patch to orient them more towards casual gaming and have the higher ones with the competitive patch.
This type of balance is even being shown in soccer, with additional goal line refs in some europa/CL leagues whilst not being used in teir 2 in England, or even some Tier 1 leagues around the world.
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On November 16 2010 15:35 VorcePA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 15:07 MaD.pYrO wrote:
A nerf to High Templar would be pure garbage - the choice between High Templar or Colossus is pretty tough right now at best, if HT were to be nerfed Colossus would just be the only choice - and i don't know about you, but i like having a choice.
The main issue seems to be that terran is balanced about going bio, and just as in BW i just can't see bio winning over storm, even considering how "bad" storm is now in regards to it's BW counterpart. Both need to be nerfed. Colossus are a staple in every single match up. Storm, like it was in the early days of Starcraft, is too powerful for the energy, currently. What ended up happening in SC1 is they ended up lowering the damage and increasing the length of the spell. I don't think a damage reduction is really necessary here, as a Terran player, but increasing the length of the spell so that damage doesn't happen so quickly would be a change in the right direction. But with both of these units now more reasonable, toss would never really be able to compete with the other two races, because they aren't strong until they have 1 of the 2 (and not always then, either). Gateway units need a buff of some kind, but that's a nightmare to think about without ruining one of their 3 match ups. For instance, any early game buff would inevitably lead to protoss 4-warp gating each other again.
Actually the Colossus being staple is pretty situational - you aren't really well off going Colossi against a muta zerg for example.
If you increase the length of Storm casting - noone will use Storm because Colossus will become the better choice for the sole purpose that stimmed units dodge storm but they don't dodge colossus.
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Well well, to be honest I did not see this coming at all. Zergs are definitely doing a lot better than they were previous so we'll have to see what other tweaks are needed.
The most problematic match up it seems is TvP atm. Like what's been mentioned earlier, Protoss is either too strong or too weak and after playing quite a bit on the ladder I have to agree. Sometimes I'm just completely smashed in the face by their army composition other times I can 1a through them with ease. Obviously, my games aren't any indication of anything, but it's just how I feel.
A rebalancing of the race is needed. Also another thing I want is something done to the Terran lategame which I feel is vastly inferior to the other two races, but whatever that's just me.
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Looks like P>T>Z>P all over again. Good old Brood War.
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Oh gawd, if blizzard looks at this and starts nerfing P even more then we'll have 0 Protoss in the next GSL.
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On November 16 2010 15:35 VorcePA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 15:07 MaD.pYrO wrote:
A nerf to High Templar would be pure garbage - the choice between High Templar or Colossus is pretty tough right now at best, if HT were to be nerfed Colossus would just be the only choice - and i don't know about you, but i like having a choice.
The main issue seems to be that terran is balanced about going bio, and just as in BW i just can't see bio winning over storm, even considering how "bad" storm is now in regards to it's BW counterpart. Both need to be nerfed. Colossus are a staple in every single match up. Storm, like it was in the early days of Starcraft, is too powerful for the energy, currently. What ended up happening in SC1 is they ended up lowering the damage and increasing the length of the spell. I don't think a damage reduction is really necessary here, as a Terran player, but increasing the length of the spell so that damage doesn't happen so quickly would be a change in the right direction. But with both of these units now more reasonable, toss would never really be able to compete with the other two races, because they aren't strong until they have 1 of the 2 (and not always then, either). Gateway units need a buff of some kind, but that's a nightmare to think about without ruining one of their 3 match ups. For instance, any early game buff would inevitably lead to protoss 4-warp gating each other again.
Increasing the length of the Spell would end up hurting Protoss more, with the way Terrans kite, it isn't uncommon to see Zealots and Stalkers catch the tail end of the storms as Terran move back. Increasing the length would hurt Toss quite a bit.
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On November 16 2010 14:57 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 14:56 Logo wrote:On November 16 2010 14:55 Sadist wrote:On November 16 2010 14:52 Tripal wrote:On November 16 2010 14:37 Sadist wrote:On November 16 2010 14:17 Knutzi wrote:
well since were all just trying too waste some time while spamming f5 on the gsl qualifier i think il post some retarded sugestions on how too help protoss
1.make it possible too chronoboost on a pylon giving the chronoboosted pylon stealth detection for a short while making it possible too skip robotics and not instantly lose against stealth.
2.stalkers get 2+ damage against armored per uppgrade instead of 1, small buff but i think it would help a littlebit against speed roaches and marauders
3. make achrons massive.
4. reduce the research time and mana cost for hallucination, this would help protoss with scouting options early on
obviously after this protoss probably would need a nerf on the collosus and sentry as these two units are just stupid good P doesnt lose to cloaked banshees with FE with a good build. Robo comes up in time But the fact that you [b]MUST/b] build the thing removes the possibility of going stargate tech or templar tech early on without losing to banshee. So what, its the same thing as PvP in bw. I dont see the problem with "having" to go robo tech. If you really wanna go templar or stargate, get cannons. With 7 range and 8(?) vision I wouldn't recommend trying to rely on cannons vs the 6 range banshees. It's probably cheaper to build the robo. Exactly, if you want to FE quit bitching and build the robo. Its not like it slows you down anyway. You can go templar tech after that if you really want to.
Looking at the different races, Protoss has the worst detection there is. Zerg can easily make an overseer once they get lair - easily before any invisibad units show up - and Terran 's are in a very similar position as Protoss, except they have scans. Terrans CAN go 3 rax against toss because a scan can save them from a DT, or they'd have to 1-1-1 all the time (which is viable in it's own self).
Imagine there were no scans, Terrans would be FORCED to get a raven just in case there is a DT. In the same manner, Protoss are FORCED to get an obs just in case there is a banshee. And sure, ravens are 'higher tech' than obs but be aware that DT's are 'higher tech' than banshees, too.
Turrets and cannons shouldn't be a part of this conversation, if you need to throw up static defenses then the invisible units are doing their job; giving your opponent map control and time for him to macro as you waste money on defenses. You lose to any good player.
Don't even get me started on why I need a Robo Bay (200/200) to get observer speed, the only way they will keep up with banshees. Man, oh man.
I'm not QQing here, I just disagree with your argument is all.
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On November 16 2010 16:49 Barca wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 14:57 Sadist wrote:On November 16 2010 14:56 Logo wrote:On November 16 2010 14:55 Sadist wrote:On November 16 2010 14:52 Tripal wrote:On November 16 2010 14:37 Sadist wrote:On November 16 2010 14:17 Knutzi wrote:
well since were all just trying too waste some time while spamming f5 on the gsl qualifier i think il post some retarded sugestions on how too help protoss
1.make it possible too chronoboost on a pylon giving the chronoboosted pylon stealth detection for a short while making it possible too skip robotics and not instantly lose against stealth.
2.stalkers get 2+ damage against armored per uppgrade instead of 1, small buff but i think it would help a littlebit against speed roaches and marauders
3. make achrons massive.
4. reduce the research time and mana cost for hallucination, this would help protoss with scouting options early on
obviously after this protoss probably would need a nerf on the collosus and sentry as these two units are just stupid good P doesnt lose to cloaked banshees with FE with a good build. Robo comes up in time But the fact that you [b]MUST/b] build the thing removes the possibility of going stargate tech or templar tech early on without losing to banshee. So what, its the same thing as PvP in bw. I dont see the problem with "having" to go robo tech. If you really wanna go templar or stargate, get cannons. With 7 range and 8(?) vision I wouldn't recommend trying to rely on cannons vs the 6 range banshees. It's probably cheaper to build the robo. Exactly, if you want to FE quit bitching and build the robo. Its not like it slows you down anyway. You can go templar tech after that if you really want to. Looking at the different races, Protoss has the worst detection there is. Zerg can easily make an overseer once they get lair - easily before any invisibad units show up - and Terran 's are in a very similar position as Protoss, except they have scans. Terrans CAN go 3 rax against toss because a scan can save them from a DT, or they'd have to 1-1-1 all the time (which is viable in it's own self). Imagine there were no scans, Terrans would be FORCED to get a raven just in case there is a DT. In the same manner, Protoss are FORCED to get an obs just in case there is a banshee. And sure, ravens are 'higher tech' than obs but be aware that DT's are 'higher tech' than banshees, too. Turrets and cannons shouldn't be a part of this conversation, if you need to throw up static defenses then the invisible units are doing their job; giving your opponent map control and time for him to macro as you waste money on defenses. You lose to any good player. Don't even get me started on why I need a Robo Bay (200/200) to get observer speed, the only way they will keep up with banshees. Man, oh man. I'm not QQing here, I just disagree with your argument is all.
I think observers should build a little faster - observers are so tough to lose because you have no time to reproduce them when making Colossi. I'd be happy with getting the Observatory back if i can get cheap fast building observers again :p
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On November 16 2010 15:44 VenerableSpace wrote:
I would like to lower leagues playing with a different patch to orient them more towards casual gaming and have the higher ones with the competitive patch.
This type of balance is even being shown in soccer, with additional goal line refs in some europa/CL leagues whilst not being used in teir 2 in England, or even some Tier 1 leagues around the world.
I don't think that would be the best idea for the community. If you want to build an online community, then the best thing to do is keep it all one single game with the same rules throughout the leagues. If you make it so that bronze leaguers are forced to play at a certain patch with alltogether different rules, then they'll start to feel alienated and mad that they can't play the same game that the higher up pros play. It's also one of the things that attracts people to start watching starcraft. Starcraft has so many spectators because people enjoy watching the things others (pros) can do with the same tools that they are given.
The type of change you're talking about (if you want to use an analogy) is analogous with changing the game of American Football so that everyone who does not play for a high school team must play with a round ball instead of the familiar elliptical shape with tapered ends. The reasoning behind it would be the same, "people who don't know how to throw a football would be better suited to playing this version of the game."
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Europe looks most balanced.
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On November 16 2010 13:45 Raiden X wrote:
Zealot Charge personally is a joke compared to old Zealot Speed.
So i caught up to you wack once and you walk away. Then i have to w8 another minute to wack again. With Speedlots Zealots could actually keep up with kiting units such as Hydras with speed.
The Zealots has good DPS. IT just never uses it because it can't reach anything. Melee is useless without speed upgrades.
Any Zerg can vouch how useless Lings are without Speed
Incorrect, go check your facts. Zealot charge ALSO has a passive movespeed buff, putting them up among the faster ground units, in addition to the charge ability.
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Having just recently changed to protoss for funsies ( damn those zvz's, couldn't take it anymore ), I can safely say that its easier for protoss to beat zerg than it is vice versa at my diamond level ( 1650 when mained zerg, 1560 when protoss ). I can just go some random push and do significant damage, and even when I expand I'm almost always even on his drones with my probes.
I'm not completely biased though. ZvP is my worst match up since people started to expand and then push. And I'm not really sure how to combat it effectively. I'm not in favour of any balance work right now. I think its pretty ok for the moment.
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The problem with protoss like some have said is the design. The most powerful race gets warp gate tech very early in the game, right off the bat that made it very OP and cheesy with all kinds BS timing attacks. So Blizzard has nerfed the living hell out of them. Because a lot of lower skilled players cried about the cheese and the timing attacks which still happen to date, protoss has gotten the short end of the stick.
Yet these nerfs have done nothing to improve protoss' standard builds. Gateway units suck ass, the sentry is a great unit, but protoss unlike other races can't afford unit compositions early on. Getting that much stuff means sacrificing an army for tech. So toss' options are to kill you with a timing attack, fail but get ahead, or survive until he gets colossus and HT.
I think what needs to be done for protoss, is moving warp gate tech to the robo or twilight c, and moving the sentry to the robo. Then buffing the Stalker's attack and hit points, and reducing the zealot build time.
Buff the stalker get rid of the Immortal, I never liked that unit anyway.
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Remove warp gates. Then buff Gateway unit strength.
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Protoss does not need to be nerfed, it needs to be fixed. Protoss is the only race that you can't try anything fancy. You can only play one way, but that one way is pretty damn strong. I think changing the way storm works would be a benefit, but also allow other units to be more viable as well.
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Obviously noone here have looked at the multiplayer-panel from blizzcon. While on these numbers it looks like P is strong its quite the difference. In the koreas top-diamond PvT is 40-60% in favor of terran..
This is what buggs blizzard, because on lower levels PvT is acceptable while on higher levels terran just rolls protoss... This could also be your explaination to why every T feels confident vs P in GSL and you hardly see any protosses at the end of the tournament. And the games of PvT you have seen is almost all cheese from the protoss, since they cant really compete with a standard game against marine / marauder mass drops.
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On November 16 2010 18:24 xzidez wrote:
Obviously noone here have looked at the multiplayer-panel from blizzcon. While on these numbers it looks like P is strong its quite the difference. In the koreas top-diamond PvT is 40-60% in favor of terran..
This is what buggs blizzard, because on lower levels PvT is acceptable while on higher levels terran just rolls protoss... This could also be your explaination to why every T feels confident vs P in GSL and you hardly see any protosses at the end of the tournament. And the games of PvT you have seen is almost all cheese from the protoss, since they cant really compete with a standard game against marine / marauder mass drops.
not anymore. updated stats. try reading the op
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Statistics and numbers don't always tell the whole story. And in some cases, they're downright pointless.
See: Hockey +/- stat. A defenseman with a +32 rating that leads the league in that category does not mean that he is good.
Likewise, a 50:50 win loss ratio between X:X race can also mean absolutely *nothing* when you talk about gameplay balance.
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EPT
