EPTKorea – Diamond – 11/11
PvT: 58.0%
PvZ: 43.0%
TvZ: 46.1%
PvT: 58.0%
PvZ: 43.0%
TvZ: 46.1%
These make me think a balance change will come out before the GSL Ro64~ starts.
StarCraft II: The Balancing Act - Page 10
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NuKedUFirst
Canada3139 Posts
These make me think a balance change will come out before the GSL Ro64~ starts. | ||
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless). This is exactly right. Once I have the stormer upgrades and a secured third, I feel like the game is won. I feel lucky whenever I make it that far, however, because the basic P units are terrible against marines, mutas and roaches. | ||
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Fizbin
Canada202 Posts
On November 16 2010 15:38 Cloak wrote: Buff first, nerf later. =( Any tweaks to Protoss will be uncompensated nerfs, that's how Blizzard treats its red-headed stepchild. this kind of stepchild? lol | ||
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kuroshiro
United Kingdom378 Posts
Although I honestly think it's a 'nice' idea to try and balance at more than just the pro level I believe wholeheartedly that it would be disastrous for the longevity of the game if balance changes at mid-diamond and down are not weighted almost exponentially less when compared to the pro-scene... Just for example; If people see that their favorite pros can deal with what seems otherwise imbalanced then they will marvel all the more and have things to push for themselves in mastering the game. I really hope the blizz guys feel the same way. | ||
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ssregitoss
Turkey241 Posts
and a 6 range unit with 125hp and 2.25 speed with a total of 20 damage is only 100 min + 25 gas. this is unblance. and mules cooldown is so long even that you have half the worker of toss players you are on the same economies.i am giving my head that if you reduce the cooldown time this match up will be fixed.i am watching lots of pvts and i am expert on this match up.the only reason terran wins even toss has advange on early game cause of mules.dont talk about chrono boost the probes it is not the same thing. in pvt problem starts in mid game when 2. exp taken by terran.and all the terran players makes their 3. cc to plantery fortress even you sneak some units to his expo no way to deal with plantery fortress.you even dont need to defand your expo.and if it is a gold put 4 mules and you have 2000 income. Am i wrong? what terran do for toss 2. expo. sacrifice 6 maradurs and attack the nexus with stim.cause toss must have their units together to be effective.check nexgenius match on gsl on metropolis. | ||
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neobowman
Canada3324 Posts
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noD
2230 Posts
Edit: I dont think it's possible to balance protoss with the current units, i think they will have to do a complete reboot after the expansion ... till then they will be either too good for low levels and too bad for pros or the inverse ... | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On November 17 2010 09:31 noD wrote: here lies the problem, how would blizz balance protoss for pros without making auto win for anything lower than 2k diamond ? xDDDDDD Edit: I dont think it's possible to balance protoss with the current units, i think they will have to do a complete reboot after the expansion ... till then they will be either too good for low levels and too bad for pros or the inverse ... I agree with this. I think Thors and Colossi ruin the game for a variety of reasons. They're flashy units put in to try and create a wow factor but all the really do is create a snooze fest. There's a bunch of reasons why a 6 pop ground unit is a bad idea (Ultras fit this to an extent as well, but they're barely worth their pop compared to Thors and Colossi). | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
The problem is that if the stats can swing that fast in a few days how reliable are they? How much of the percentage changes are due to terrans that were previously too high in Korea relying on barracks before supply. It is the most aggressive server after all. Also it could just be one or two maps and spawn positions where the win percentage is skewing the results in one or two of the matchups but Blizzard has already admitted they dont bother looking down that far into the statistics yet. And finally there is a huge difference between low diamond and high diamond I am sure we will see those differences when the 2 new leagues come out. If it is map balance then it may not even effect GSL because of the ability to veto your worst map except in qualifying which has been shown this time round at least to be bad for protoss (IMO due to the maps used). | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless). I am going to steal that Jinro, so well put. Grats on qualification  . | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Bio is pretty much the only real early pressure that Terran can put out early game against Protoss. Banshees are possible, but if you get early pressure back from a bunch of Stalkers you could lose the game then and there. Mech has issues with Protoss due to Zealots (Chargelots in particular) and Immortals, as well as Range 9 Colossi. Mass air is very vulnerable to a combo of Stalkers and Phoenixes. Hellions until they get Blue Flame don't do enough damage to Zealots to make it worth getting them. Tanks need critical mass before they become useful and with 150/125/3 for each one, that gets tricky. Thors get outranged by Colossi and surrounded by Chargelots, dooming them. It isn't so much that Mech has issues with Protoss but with how long it takes to get Mech rolling. One Robo Bay with 4 Gateways can produce a deadly army, but just one Factory isn't going to cut it. Double Tank production makes it difficult to do anything else. If Mech Transition was made a little easier and useful in smaller numbers (maybe make Tanks to 150/75 or reduce their production time, 250mm modified to having more range?), Terran would have something to transition into. In the TvP's I've played where I managed to get critical mass tanks with EMP support, the playing field was actually pretty even. It's getting to that point, the actual transition itself where all the trouble is as you'll have a bunch of Colossi/HT knocking at your door before you can fight it off. | ||
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Somnolence
Lithuania127 Posts
[B]It isn't so much that Mech has issues with Protoss but with how long it takes to get Mech rolling. One Robo Bay with 4 Gateways can produce a deadly army, but just one Factory isn't going to cut it. Double Tank production makes it difficult to do anything else. Terran is the only race that cannot increase the production speed/rate with energy. They must build more production structures that consume resources and take SCVs off-mining. Mule mechanic only gets more minerals and these extra minerals go to non-gas units like marines and hellions that don't help much with lategame protoss/zerg. Perhaps improving the macro mechanic is the easiest way to fix terran, buffing some units will only result in nasty timing pushes with them because terrans unlock tech very fast. | ||
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On November 17 2010 21:16 Somnolence wrote: Terran is the only race that cannot increase the production speed/rate with energy. They must build more production structures that consume resources and take SCVs off-mining. Mule mechanic only gets more minerals and these extra minerals go to non-gas units like marines and hellions that don't help much with lategame protoss/zerg. Perhaps improving the macro mechanic is the easiest way to fix terran, buffing some units will only result in nasty timing pushes with them because terrans unlock tech very fast. If you have a robo bay producing colossus off one base then you will only be able to produce out of 2 of the 4 warp gates. So its a similar situation to that of a factory in that it eats into the resources. Since you mention chrono boost and compare it to mules. The effectiveness of chronoboost is being gradually chipped away at as an after effect of some of the nerfs. Its like they thought yay this ability sounds cool it can speed production of all units 50% and then gradually since had to introduce warp gate research because units came too early, then increased immortal research because immortals came to early, dark templar shrine build time and cost because DTs came too early, then zealots and warp gate transition because zealots came too early. Its like giving you a 50% off coupon for your shop that you can use once in every 4 weeks and then increase the price of everything by 50% or more. It would be better if chrono never worked on unit production at all (even if it didnt also give them a supply boost or detection as well) and it only work on tech research and probe production because it really isnt helping protoss as a race much. So I agree with you it seems that it sounded like a great idea but these resource/production boosting mechanics seem to be causing a lot of the balance issues now we are a few months in. | ||
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Knee_of_Justice
United States388 Posts
Warpgates allow for some interesting mobility, but really force (balance wise) the protoss to be weaker in comparison. This is a zerg trait, not a protoss trait. Of course, protoss units are still more powerful, but they have some glaring weaknesses in design (some which are more affected by units in other races: marauder, for example). From alpha, following this game, i thought that warpgates would be an interesting choice that you would have to make. I really saw a ton of potential with this ability. For example, as people all over this forum (and in this thread) have suggested, make warpgates more expensive: maybe 150/150. This change makes warpgates more of a decision to make, instead of just delaying a probe and 1 stalkers worth of gas and then waiting out the upgrade. Then, make warpgates less efficient, overall. Perhaps it would take the full build time + those extra seconds to warp in (increase to 8-10 seconds????) in addition to having to click them individually. This is an advantage in itself: the protoss get the ability to warp their units anywhere with pylon power nearly instantly. However, sustaining the level of production of the other races would be impossible with warpgates alone, so gateways would still be necessary. You could also see some interesting choices during pushes: do i keep up a constant stream of units, or do i push, then change my gates to warpgates to warp in a ton of units, knowing that if i fail, i have to suffer the longer cooldown? In exchange, buff the zealot and the stalker, while nerfing the sentry. Honestly, forcefield should not be nearly as spammable and shouldnt come out until twilight council. If any protoss upgrade deserves to be 200/200, its forcefield (and im not saying it should be: maybe 100/100). What this does is stabilizes the protoss early game without the use of spellcasting (which is dependent on player skill) and allows protoss a number of interesting choices once midgame hits: you can get sentrys (which could use a buff if FF is nerfed) and forcefield (logical, since you already have sentries perhaps), colossi, stargate or HT/DT. I feel like warpgates are the primary problem, along with forcefields. Nothing can be truly fixed until blizzard addresses these root issues, imo. | ||
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_KiM_
Canada498 Posts
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ensis
Germany340 Posts
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
perhaps to 300/300 + 100/100+ speed or energy upgrade. This is a new game and we need to experiment more. | ||
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