EPTStarCraft II: The Balancing Act - Page 9
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
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IPS.Mardow.
Germany713 Posts
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Mr.Pyro
Denmark959 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:40 IPS.Mardow. wrote: Zerg seems strong in Korea ^_^ Zerg seems strong, period.  | ||
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GoDannY
Germany442 Posts
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zomgad
185 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:57 GoDannY wrote: well this does not explain the extremly low win rate of protoss in high level tournaments like GSL, could be interesting what we protoss players will face in the upcoming balance changes, a huge nerf or a slight buff? well this also does not explain the influx of mid-low rank diamond Protoss players creating topics and using tournaments wins as a excuse to complain how all MU's are unfair and hard while everything shows that they win more than they deserve lol. | ||
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Barook
Germany143 Posts
On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless). I can't agree more with this statement. Protoss has some ugly design flaws which were covered by certain, powerful strategies/units. Gateway units are bad and Protoss air is a joke while HT and Colossi mow down everything once they get going. The purpose of quite a few units is also questionable: - Mothership is a no-brainer - Archons being a terrible unit due to being designed as "trash" unit for HTs out of energy - Phoenix being designed as an air superiority fighter, but failing pretty much against anything armored - and most air in SC2 is armored - Void Rays being used as a cheese unit to melt down everything (including its counters) once they're charged and being quite crappy while not charged. Weren't they suppossed to be a counter against big units like BCs? The charge mechanic introduces a "random" element in a game where it shouldn't exist. - Carriers being too expensive and slow to get; also lacking auto-repair for its Interceptors - Warp Prism having nothing decent to drop Tech switching suffers from expensive buildings, very expensive upgrades to make units competitive and being pretty much required to go Robo first. | ||
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xzidez
Sweden147 Posts
They will start winning about equally skilled other races, thus getting better opponents. And once their opponents are that good that they match the "race difference" he will win about 50/50% of the games in the certanin matchup. (Even tho their opponents are a lot better) What happens in mirror matchups? Nothing, because both players are equally bad and in fact use the same race. Conclusion? Those numbers will be close to 45-55 no matter how good one race is as long as the programmers have done their work and assuming that one race doesnt have an autowin unit that only works against one other race (if it works against both the numbers would still show the race as "balanced"). Im terribad at explaining stuffs, so if anyone actually gets what im trying to say here they can probably do a translation : D Edit: Before anyone jumps in with "but the numbers aint 50 / 50 so you are all wrong". No, the numbers aint 50 / 50. This is because one race is not equally good against the other two races. For example prepatch T did use reaper against Z with great success, but that strategy didnt work against P. But in overall balance, one race can be incredible stronger than the other two, and the numbers would still be close to 50/50. The only place where they cant be 50/50 is at the very top, where the better race cant get even better opponents from the other two races. Also. Im not blaming one race in particular. Just that this way of measuring balance is flawed. And blizzard have stated that its not the only method they use, and I have complete trust in blizzard  | ||
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TurtlePerson2
United States218 Posts
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/1021053681 Maybe there is a typo in the current data set? | ||
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Barook
Germany143 Posts
On November 17 2010 02:18 TurtlePerson2 wrote: Why is Europe so different? Because Europe is THE Terran stronghold for whatever reason. It has lots of good Terran players in its Top 200, too. | ||
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VenerableSpace
United States463 Posts
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On November 17 2010 00:40 Boundless wrote: I'm really interested to see how the Korean Protosses in GSL3 are going to play. They're very under-represented compared to the other two races, reminiscent of Zerg in GSL1. They'll be eliminated in the round of 8 by Hopetorture, just like the first 2 GSLs. | ||
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Ganondorf
Italy600 Posts
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote: IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless). exactly! and as analyzed in lots of other posts, this "unbalancedness" prolly stems from 1) core gateway units being way too shitty without FF/colossi/HT 2) FF/colossi/HT being way too strong, especially once you get a big army (or in the case of FF, at ramps) 3) warpgates making protoss early production-curves even more drastic than zergs - before warpgates, you have no units, then boom - you have a shitton of stuff, after that it starts to even out 4) i think 3) is another reason why gateway units are so weak, otherwise warpgate rushes would be even stronger 5) the stalker filling way too many roles, its especially difficult to balance the two roles of a core unit that needs to make up the bulk of the army and is basically the only ground to air unit, and a unit that has an ability that makes it very potent when massed exclusively (blink). it wont happen, but i think it would be way better to have the dragoon or something similar back as a core unit, and make stalkers require twilight council and give them + to light so they could act as a harassment unit, something protoss lacks right now 6) each individual tech path after gateway being strong, but very specialized, and tech switching being very hard, especially since most units require expensive upgrades to be useful i think what would help is: - make warpgate research longer and/or more expensive and/or move it to higher tech building and/or make gateway conversion to warpgates take a long time - make robotic factory cheaper but robotic support bay more expensive and maybe longer build time - decrease the impact of protoss high-level upgrades by giving colossi more range unupgraded and less range upgraded, and making psi storm cost more mana - make air tech path viable by buffing carriers and maybe phoenix - either decrease the size of FF or increase the size of ramps on most maps so one FF cannot block ramps, another option that has already been suggested in beta would be to make FFs destroyable - increase zlot speed and/or make charge upgrade cheaper - zealots are just countered way too hard by tier 1.5. a tier1 unit shouldnt become useless 7 minutes into the game until you get an upgrade for it - i dunno what to do about the stalker, maybe nerfing blink but making its research cheaper or even give it to the stalker right away would be a possibility? as stated above, i think the stalker would be way more suited as a + bonus to light harassment unit, even if that would protoss require to go stargate to counter air tbh, i dont think we will see a well-balanced protoss race in this game without adding additional units in the expansions  | ||
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Bull-Demon
United States582 Posts
On November 17 2010 02:29 VenerableSpace wrote: Let me reiterate that these statistics do not have significant meaning, the GSL season as well as qualifier statistics are more significant due to the level of play. Because it fits your theory better? These numbers are not the end all be all but they shouldn't be completely ignored either. Toss is too easy at low levels are not good enough at the top level. The colossal is the culprit along with warp gate masking how weak gateway units are. | ||
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Inkarnate
Canada840 Posts
European Toss are weak | ||
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summerloud
Austria1201 Posts
would be interesting to see how eg 1200 rated diamond players compare across regions hoping for cross-region play to see that :/ | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On November 17 2010 01:01 BluzMan wrote: Don't forget that 90% of the Diamond league is 4WG vs 3 rax all-in with occasional 8 pools added into the mix. So where do you pull these numbers from? | ||
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darmousseh
United States3437 Posts
On November 17 2010 02:45 summerloud wrote: exactly! and as analyzed in lots of other posts, this "unbalancedness" prolly stems from 1) core gateway units being way too shitty without FF/colossi/HT 2) FF/colossi/HT being way too strong, especially once you get a big army (or in the case of FF, at ramps) 3) warpgates making protoss early production-curves even more drastic than zergs - before warpgates, you have no units, then boom - you have a shitton of stuff, after that it starts to even out 4) i think 3) is another reason why gateway units are so weak, otherwise warpgate rushes would be even stronger 5) the stalker filling way too many roles, its especially difficult to balance the two roles of a core unit that needs to make up the bulk of the army and is basically the only ground to air unit, and a unit that has an ability that makes it very potent when massed exclusively (blink). it wont happen, but i think it would be way better to have the dragoon or something similar back as a core unit, and make stalkers require twilight council and give them + to light so they could act as a harassment unit, something protoss lacks right now 6) each individual tech path after gateway being strong, but very specialized, and tech switching being very hard, especially since most units require expensive upgrades to be useful i think what would help is: A- make warpgate research longer and/or more expensive and/or move it to higher tech building and/or make gateway conversion to warpgates take a long time B- make robotic factory cheaper but robotic support bay more expensive and maybe longer build time C- decrease the impact of protoss high-level upgrades by giving colossi more range unupgraded and less range upgraded, and making psi storm cost more mana D- make air tech path viable by buffing carriers and maybe phoenix E- either decrease the size of FF or increase the size of ramps on most maps so one FF cannot block ramps, another option that has already been suggested in beta would be to make FFs destroyable F- increase zlot speed and/or make charge upgrade cheaper - zealots are just countered way too hard by tier 1.5. a tier1 unit shouldnt become useless 7 minutes into the game until you get an upgrade for it G- i dunno what to do about the stalker, maybe nerfing blink but making its research cheaper or even give it to the stalker right away would be a possibility? as stated above, i think the stalker would be way more suited as a + bonus to light harassment unit, even if that would protoss require to go stargate to counter air tbh, i dont think we will see a well-balanced protoss race in this game without adding additional units in the expansions 1. Yeah, otherwise timing pushes would be impossible to hold against 2. Agree again, especially on forcefield. It's a cool ability, but it changes the game too significantly, i think something like stasis would accomplish the same goal without changing the terrain so much. 3 & 4. Agree, warpgates + pylons are extremely powerful. 5. I think stalkers are fine. Mass stalkers are pretty powerful, but i think this more has to do with the immortal being an absolutely horrible unit. Give the immortal +1 range and this problem goes away. 6. Yeah, this is partially by design. A. Definitely agree. Make warpgates 100/100 and take 20 seconds to morph and suddenly it becomes only viable in the mid game, lower zealot build time to compensate. B. The robo bay is the weirdest building in the entire game. It has your scouting unit, your shuttle unit, a weird slow fat robo unit that is countered by all t1 units (marines and zerglings) and a powerful ranged unit. hopefully will be drastically changed in the expansion C. 7 range to start with is good enough for it's purpose which is to outrange marines and marauders. If it starts with this it doesn't need a range upgrade. D. I think 2 things need to happen. Lower phoenix gas cost by 25( and built time by 5 seconds) and lower viking range by 1 and magically they are actually air superiority fighters. E. Stasis F. Remove charge and make it just a leg speed upgrade for 100/100 and cut build time in half. Also give zealots 10 more hp (to match bw) G. I think the stalker's role is fine. Stalkers are currently 10(+4 to armored). Change it to 11(+3 to armored) and they would suddenly become more useful especially against marines and mutalisks, but this would almost guarantee you would never see an immortal in the game (less dps, slower, can't shoot air, no blink) | ||
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