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On November 16 2010 21:03 kojinshugi wrote:
And the mothership needs to either stop being terrible or just go back to the campaign as eye candy. Two ideas right off the bat:
1) Make the mothership permacloaked, the "shimmer" will be so huge that you're not going to miss it, but you need detection to counter it.
2) Leave the mothership uncloaked but make its cloaking field apply undetectable invisibility. You want to see what's under the mothership? Kill it.
Or remove the mothership, and add back the Arbitor. It was in the game for a reason.
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On November 16 2010 17:44 link0 wrote:
Remove warp gates. Then buff Gateway unit strength.
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yes, nerf protoss more... remove the zealot  LOL
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On November 16 2010 15:07 MaD.pYrO wrote:
A nerf to High Templar would be pure garbage - the choice between High Templar or Colossus is pretty tough right now at best, if HT were to be nerfed Colossus would just be the only choice - and i don't know about you, but i like having a choice.
The main issue seems to be that terran is balanced about going bio, and just as in BW i just can't see bio winning over storm, even considering how "bad" storm is now in regards to it's BW counterpart.
Thats why mech needs to be made viable in TvP. But it isn't. So as long as Mech isn't viable Storm needs to sadly be nerfed. Eventhough i personally dont believe this is the right thing.
Come on Blizzard TvP Mech. Curse you Immortal Charge Blink VoidRay Pheonix WarpPrism. 
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The colossus has hard counters people. It's sad that people want the only other unit aside from the phoenix that doesn't suck in the protoss arsenal removed or nerfed.
All throughout beta protoss players tried to go for HTs before colossus, especially against terran, and many times that investment never paid out. Storms suck, and the amount of HTs you have to invest in to make them worthwhile without colossus is absurd. That many HT means your other army composition is low...so a few emps or mutas sniping HTs and you're dead, for a lack of actual attack units.
The Colossus is only real threat the Protoss have to get mid to late game, and it must be supported by gateway units so that it doesn't die quickly. And even that composition isn't good enough these days. Protoss has to add another unit to the composition in HTs just to stand a chance.
And to get all this protoss has to survive the onslaught of timing attacks for terran, or watch as zerg takes the map as he tries to turtle up until the he can finally push out. Protoss is slowly becoming BW terran.
I think you will continue to see cheesy timing attacks until protoss' standard play is fixed.
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The figures in the OP does not mean a single thing other than the matchmaking system is working properly hence we can see quite balanced result. Because what happens if lets say XvY matchup and X is more powerful than Y. (I don't want to name races lol ). Then X will loose more then win to Y but only if the players are on the same level. But if you are X you will get weaker Y opponents due to the matchmaking system and the numbers will even out.
I would not say +/- 5% discrepancy to be imba. Without context I think these stats are just meaningless. Would be good to know whether they took into consideration the race distribution figures when they made the stat.
I think a good race balance study should be based on progamers like ones on GSL or MLG with the same number of players for each race and then take a look at the winrates. I'm saying pros, because probably they can play the races to their full strengths only.
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On November 16 2010 18:49 dtz wrote:
Tweaking Protoss is such a problem for Blizzard because they try to cater to the casuals so much and in Diamonds and below, Protoss has such an insane popularity and high winning rate
Buffing Zerg was easier because it had such low popularity and relatively low winning rate on all levels.
They need to redesign some stuff to make Protoss harder on lower skill level as well as increasing the skill ceiling.
If Blizzard treated BW the same way they are treating SC2 what would be like? Definetly not an E Sport. If a race is easier to play and thats why its winning in the lower leagues that should be fine. But no Blizzard wants all races to be equal at all levels.
Frikking the Protoss are winning in the lower leagues because they all turtle and go void ray.
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On November 16 2010 17:44 link0 wrote:
Remove warp gates. Then buff Gateway unit strength.
Personally i like the idea of giving Warp gates and gate ways diffrent roles
Gateway-faster production but macro is old fashion
Warpgates-Slower production, but warpin is instant and anywhere with Pylon Power.(Lore wise the Warp gate is a new unstable technology)
This would nerf 4gates which i feel is a good thing. And it gives an incentive to have both Warpgates and Gateways. Heck on of the reasons Terran has to open Bio or Banshee is because of the stupid 4 gate.
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On November 16 2010 21:30 KingAce wrote:
The Colossus is only real threat the Protoss have to get mid to late game, and it must be supported by gateway units so that it doesn't die quickly. And even that composition isn't good enough these days. Protoss has to add another unit to the composition in HTs just to stand a chance.
Yes, to stand a chance and having 57% vs 43%! Please don't make it look like protoss has such a hard time against terrans. I agree that EARLY game MMM is too strong in this matchup, but there it ends. After early game there is still MMM and lategame there is still MMM (with somethimes some tanks added). I would like to use other units then marines, marauders and medivacs. I saw some terrans like servyoa going mech against protoss. Even when they were miles ahead (with hellion drops everywhere), economic and unit wise, they still lost. I tried factory play a lot after the patch but it's just too weak.
MMM is great, but when storm comes out it's very hard. Ofcourse you can EMP those HT's! That's exactly what I do. There is one problem: 5 seconds later the toss warped in 5 new HT's and my ghosts are out of energy / dead by then. My army dissapears and at the end I lose.
Another problem in my opinion is the terran macro. Imagine a 200 vs 200 battle. If I lose it (yes, I often lose 200 vs 200 battles against protoss) or even if we both lose, the toss will warp in so quickly that by the time my units come out, I lost at least 1 expansion. I recently saw a toss (lategame), after losing 90 supply, going back to 200 in 10 seconds. I had 12+ raxes but by the time my units were out, I lost several expansions and at the end I just died because protoss still had his bases up and running.
I am not saying that pvt is imbalanced. I am just not understanding why so many protoss players are complaining about pvt. I miss protoss @ gsl 3 and I really hope blizzard does something about this. PvZ seems really hard (watch the qualifiers of today, most tosses are out because of zergs, not terrans) and early game terrans are too strong. I don't know how blizzard will fix this, because if they make terran less strong early game, TvZ will be in a lot of trouble.
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I don't read to much into these numbers, but unfortunately Blizzard does. In low diamond I still see cannon rushes, marauder 3 rax all ins, 7 pools quite a bit. I also see alot of 4 gate all ins, banshee rushes, roach rush ect. If the game goes beyond 2 base opponents often crumble because their lack of macro. In other words half the people in diamond have no idea wtf they are doing, have a poor understanding of the game and use gimmicky cheesy strats to get there. I see a lot of gold players with better mid/late game than many cheesy diamonds. When there is a more elite league formed with the top 5% from diamond then we may see some data from that league that is more telling. I play toss and I can say that it is pretty damn easy to win with 4 gate if your opponent fe's!
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On November 16 2010 21:49 Dente wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 21:30 KingAce wrote:
The Colossus is only real threat the Protoss have to get mid to late game, and it must be supported by gateway units so that it doesn't die quickly. And even that composition isn't good enough these days. Protoss has to add another unit to the composition in HTs just to stand a chance. Yes, to stand a chance and having 57% vs 43%! Please don't make it look like protoss has such a hard time against terrans. I agree that EARLY game MMM is too strong in this matchup, but there it ends. After early game there is still MMM and lategame there is still MMM (with somethimes some tanks added). I would like to use other units then marines, marauders and medivacs. I saw some terrans like servyoa going mech against protoss. Even when they were miles ahead (with hellion drops everywhere), economic and unit wise, they still lost. I tried factory play a lot after the patch but it's just too weak. MMM is great, but when storm comes out it's very hard. Ofcourse you can EMP those HT's! That's exactly what I do. There is one problem: 5 seconds later the toss warped in 5 new HT's and my ghosts are out of energy / dead by then. My army dissapears and at the end I lose. Another problem in my opinion is the terran macro. Imagine a 200 vs 200 battle. If I lose it (yes, I often lose 200 vs 200 battles against protoss) or even if we both lose, the toss will warp in so quickly that by the time my units come out, I lost at least 1 expansion. I recently saw a toss (lategame), after losing 90 supply, going back to 200 in 10 seconds. I had 12+ raxes but by the time my units were out, I lost several expansions and at the end I just died because protoss still had his bases up and running. I am not saying that pvt is imbalanced. I am just not understanding why so many protoss players are complaining about pvt. I miss protoss @ gsl 3 and I really hope blizzard does something about this. PvZ seems really hard (watch the qualifiers of today, most tosses are out because of zergs, not terrans) and early game terrans are too strong. I don't know how blizzard will fix this, because if they make terran less strong early game, TvZ will be in a lot of trouble.
You are from Belgium if I'm not incorrect that is located in EU, and if you are in diamond (which is the only league relevant here) Terran has 2% advantage, so as you are not in Korea you shouldn't have anything to whine about. I'm not sure what causes these variations in these win% by region, but I guess it must have something to do with strategy variations, since there is like 20% protoss in the top of the EU ladder and I haven't seen protoss do well at all in Korea.
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On November 16 2010 22:04 Tripal wrote:
You are from Belgium if I'm not incorrect that is located in EU, and if you are in diamond (which is the only league relevant here) Terran has 2% advantage, so as you are not in Korea you shouldn't have anything to whine about. I'm not sure what causes these variations in these win% by region, but I guess it must have something to do with strategy variations, since there is like 20% protoss in the top of the EU ladder and I haven't seen protoss do well at all in Korea.
Maybe Europe terrans are more abusive early game, I don't know. I like to play a macrogame so a 1base all-in is something I dislike. I am just not understanding why protoss players actually COMPLAIN about pvt. For me as a terran it's a hard matchup but at the end of the day I don't complain. I'm 100% sure the matchup is not figured out yet and I am still experimenting with several builds (and not only MMM).
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Storm is not too good, Hydras are too slow off creep and mech is not good enough. Buff Gateway units, nerf Collossus. Storm is just fine the way it is if Blizz fix Z and T mid/late -game options.
Am I the only 1 that prefer the BW armor/shield system? changing back to armor for both shield and hp and shield upg. to shield regen time would fix a lot I believe.
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Protoss complains, because
- if he techs straight to high templars, he dies to most mid-game pushes.
- if he techs straight to colossi, the Terran will add vikings in time.
- immortals are neutralized in time by ghosts.
- a phoenix opening won't be able to do enough damage against 3 rax.
- there is this nasty 2-1-2 opening, which can't be countered, even if scouted well.
- void rays are no real danger anymore.
Most European Terrans still go 3 rax, which is probably the most boring and most secure opening in the whole game, while very easy to pull off.
Once the Protoss has psionic storm, khaydarin amulett and has an equal economy, the feared late-game Protoss kicks in and the Terran has to fear him, but not before that.
Terran's openings are usually dominating the Protoss ones.
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all they need to do is make stalkers hit a little harder.
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Korea – Diamond – 11/11
PvT: 58.0%
i call bullshit on this one.
2 weeks ago, it was at 48%, i do not believe that it is possible over, according to blizzard, "millions" of games beeing played, to have a shift of 10% over the period of 2 weeks. it would mean that, over the period of the last 2 weeks, protoss would have to win close to 80% of all games to make that HUGHE of a shift even possible.
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It's not only that Stalkers need to deal a bit more damage (upgrade sclaing for instance),
but also the tech trees have to be looked at.
Protoss basically doesn't have _ANY_ harass options, the only ones are leading to a dead end in the tech tree.
Phoenix are great map controller, and nice for harassing, but besides mutas they suck against everything else in the air. And from the Stargate you won't get anything usefull either.
Void Rays plain out suck without Speed as harassing tools, because they get taken out in a blink of an eye. Not worth the investment, because Carriers / Motherships are also garbage.
Dark Templar, won't even comment this one because it's obvious as fuck lol.
Warp Prism is also a great harassing tool in theory, but its low movespeed and fragility are not worth the try, you need the speed upgrade before you actually can do something. Only choice that doesn't lead to a dead tech tree.
Also protoss is to reliant on force fields in early - mid game, some missed cost you the game.
In PvT and PvP there is also the BO gamble, you flat out lose games if your enemy blind counters you, and it's always over.
Protoss also needs better core Units (Zea leg speed change f.e / Stalker higher dmg / upgrade scaling), but in exchange also some nerfs on clossus for instance, and maybe amulett (not too sure about this one...)
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On November 16 2010 22:44 PulseSUI wrote:i call bullshit on this one. 2 weeks ago, it was at 48%, i do not believe that it is possible over, according to blizzard, "millions" of games beeing played, to have a shift of 10% over the period of 2 weeks. it would mean that, over the period of the last 2 weeks, protoss would have to win close to 80% of all games to make that HUGHE of a shift even possible.
Its the entire diamond which mostly consist of bad players. If those number would have been only of the top it wouldnt look like that. Protoss is simply stronger in A-move games with colossi backing up.
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On November 16 2010 22:48 xzidez wrote:
Its the entire diamond which mostly consist of bad players. If those number would have been only of the top it wouldnt look like that. Protoss is simply stronger in A-move games with colossi backing up.
that is not what i wanted to say.
i want to say that the last nummbers published by blizzard said that PvT is 48% in Korea.
so, lets say that they made that statistic based on 1 million games played per week over the last 8 weeks, that means that of the 8 million PvT, Protoss won 3,84 million and terran won 4.16 million.
now, 2 weeks later, it is 58% for protoss.
if we keep with the 1 million games per week played, it would mean that Protoss now won 5.8 million games and terran 4.2 million of the 10 million games played in total.
it would mean that protoss won 98% of all PvT games over the last 2 weeks.
-> impossible -> bullshit.
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On November 16 2010 22:48 xzidez wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 22:44 PulseSUI wrote:
Korea – Diamond – 11/11
PvT: 58.0%
i call bullshit on this one. 2 weeks ago, it was at 48%, i do not believe that it is possible over, according to blizzard, "millions" of games beeing played, to have a shift of 10% over the period of 2 weeks. it would mean that, over the period of the last 2 weeks, protoss would have to win close to 80% of all games to make that HUGHE of a shift even possible. Its the entire diamond which mostly consist of bad players. If those number would have been only of the top it wouldnt look like that. Protoss is simply stronger in A-move games with colossi backing up.
Protoss is hardly the A-move army it was in BroodWar. Storms, Blink, Sentries, even Collosus make Protoss a way more micro-intensive race than Terran, who only need to learn to kite and press "T" before engaging. If you A-move a Protoss army, you're doing it wrong.
Blizzard needs to nerf early game MMM and buff late game Terran, give them something to transition into. Terrans have no reason to change their tech because MMM can do everything they want it to, while Protoss and Zergs need heavy-hitter late game units to really seal the deal. Look at all the upgrades for Terran bio vs the upgrades for zealots and stalkers, something isn't fair there.
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EPT
