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these things means nothing really
1.lets say a one guy has a skill rating of 1000 and happens too play race X that is currently imbalanced and is 50 rating above his real level
2.this other guy has a skill rating of 1100 but plays race Y that is currently under powered so he is playing at a rating 50 below his real level.
3. because of the skill difference these players should not meet each other but because racial imbalance they have the same rating
4. when they play they will have a 50% win against each other even tho they are not at the same real skill level the racial imbalance balances that out and makes it an even match.
this is why they cant use numbers such as these for balance and the only real way too do it would be too look at tournament results and the really top level players only
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I think the TvZ numbers are still premature to be accurrate since a number of Terran players are still in transition which is evident by the number of threads on Blizzard's forums complaining of imbalance when tbh I think it's a relatively balanced mu (on-going "cheese" thread aside). Over the last few weeks I'm dreading the TvZ match-up less and less (focused on it hard, came across some timings in replays, modified my opening/transition and in general I find it working well as long as I'm actively scouting) so I think Blizzard still needs to give some time for it to settle and see where things are left. I'd like to see this number again in 2 or so months assuming no further changes are made.
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On November 16 2010 13:23 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 16 2010 13:06 coddan wrote:
Protoss nerf incoming, lol IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless). Expect a nerf to high templar and a buff to mid tier unit (like zealot or sentry). Personally i'm hoping for a removal of the charge ability on zealots and lowering the cost of zealot speed to 100/100 and lowering the cost of twilight council to 150/50. I think this would really help protoss in the mid-early game as they could get blink and zealot legs a lot faster to counter effect the stim and concussive shells upgrades.
I don't think Storm needs nerfing. I feel terran need buffs in the Factory. Even TvZ the Factory is slowly becoming less viable.
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Hard to determine stats from diamond only. should be Top 500 IMO.
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i think jinro said it right. P are quite hit or miss atm in terms of units
although i did find it interesting how different the euro numbers are to the other two, especially the PvT %'s.
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It's too difficult to beat toss with a good econ
It's almost as difficult to get a 2nd base with toss units..
The discrepancies between the regions for any terran MU is because of the marine. They're really strong DPS wise but rather flimsy in the mid game due to the strength of Z and P midgame armies
Zerg seems like the most balanced now i think. The banelings may be a little overpowered, but that doesnt have a huge impact on most games.
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On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless).
Yea, the numbers for Korea feel like what is certainly the most accurate - I just think NA (maybe Europe too) needs to skill up. I know that I feel completely helpless past midgame vs top zergs, and I feel like terran really struggles to win lategame in PvT.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On November 16 2010 13:23 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 16 2010 13:06 coddan wrote:
Protoss nerf incoming, lol IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless). Expect a nerf to high templar and a buff to mid tier unit (like zealot or sentry). Personally i'm hoping for a removal of the charge ability on zealots and lowering the cost of zealot speed to 100/100 and lowering the cost of twilight council to 150/50. I think this would really help protoss in the mid-early game as they could get blink and zealot legs a lot faster to counter effect the stim and concussive shells upgrades.
Buffing the sentry would be the opposite of what I have in mind, I think thats one of the units they are far too reliant on and that, in some situations, is far too strong (its stupid that force field traps units now, instead of pushing them back).
However, you cant nerf it without buffing something else.
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On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless).
Yes!
I always thought Protoss was slightly UP looking at Korea but the way you put it sounds perfect. I would gladly exchange nerfs for buffs if it meant giving us some actual results. (Meaning GSL)
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On November 16 2010 13:32 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 13:23 darmousseh wrote:On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 16 2010 13:06 coddan wrote:
Protoss nerf incoming, lol IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless). Expect a nerf to high templar and a buff to mid tier unit (like zealot or sentry). Personally i'm hoping for a removal of the charge ability on zealots and lowering the cost of zealot speed to 100/100 and lowering the cost of twilight council to 150/50. I think this would really help protoss in the mid-early game as they could get blink and zealot legs a lot faster to counter effect the stim and concussive shells upgrades. Buffing the sentry would be the opposite of what I have in mind, I think thats one of the units they are far too reliant on and that, in some situations, is far too strong (its stupid that force field traps units now, instead of pushing them back). However, you cant nerf it without buffing something else.
if your referring too the 1 unit stuck in between two ffs they fixed that last patch, tester mentioned it in a interview a while back
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Protoss is just entirely fucked as race. Stalkers are pathetic, sentries are amazing, Colossus is insane, spamming templar is insane, mothersihp is laughable etc.
Jinro has it right when he says Protoss are unbalanced, the race is a complete shambles  and knowing Blizzard they'll nerf it without any buff.
On November 16 2010 13:37 Knutzi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 13:32 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 16 2010 13:23 darmousseh wrote:On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 16 2010 13:06 coddan wrote:
Protoss nerf incoming, lol IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless). Expect a nerf to high templar and a buff to mid tier unit (like zealot or sentry). Personally i'm hoping for a removal of the charge ability on zealots and lowering the cost of zealot speed to 100/100 and lowering the cost of twilight council to 150/50. I think this would really help protoss in the mid-early game as they could get blink and zealot legs a lot faster to counter effect the stim and concussive shells upgrades. Buffing the sentry would be the opposite of what I have in mind, I think thats one of the units they are far too reliant on and that, in some situations, is far too strong (its stupid that force field traps units now, instead of pushing them back). However, you cant nerf it without buffing something else. if your referring too the 1 unit stuck in between two ffs they fixed that last patch, tester mentioned it in a interview a while back You can trap units in FF - the patched made it so that if you jammed units between two FFs then they still attacked, but now you can still trap units with them.
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I think some of the project / balance leads at Blizzcon summed Protoss up well. If they survive the first 12~ minutes they are likely to win.
Protoss have GREAT late game units but against a good opponent it can be difficult to get to the right tech. So the games end up in either a stomp or get stomped. I think this is kind of in line with what Jinro is saying about them being unbeatable / helpless. There is a real dichotomy in Protoss play.
I had seen an even more interesting graph recently that shows the higher up in skill you go the less Protoss are present at top level diamond and Terran/Zerg come to the front. So it is a very difficult thing overall to balance...
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On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless).
I was talking with a friend of mine a day or two ago. We came to this conclusion.
I think the problem with Protoss comes inherrently from the way they were designed.
Protoss is supposed to be this race that has 3 distinct tech paths, and is able to have some extremely powerful, ninja-like timing attacks if they aren't scouted and aren't prepared for.
However, their ability to transition from one tech path to another is the worst of the three races.
I think balancing this, they've created a race where in the early game when they only have access to one of three tech paths, they're slightly underpowered, while in the late game when they've had the time and resources to tech up multiple paths at once, they're suddenly too good.
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Even without high templar tvp is really hard. Protoss players have good FE builds now that are really difficult to punish. The numbers show an imbalance, I dont really feel it super bad tbh. Lots of games on ladder now involve warp in DT's or protoss FE builds. TBH warpgates feel a bit dodgy I dont really know what to do with them but good P players now are basically able to expand with no loss in production since they can just warpgate + chrono boost 2 rounds of units and they get Ob up intime to not die to cloaked banshee.
Its really difficult when P has a good build but maybe terran can figure something out. Ive been trying ghosts with mixed success.
edit:
For the record I dont think HT is imbalanced really at all. Warp in templar is kinda gay and could be fixed but the real problem is HT + Colossus absolutely rapes since the HT is able to weaken the units and then colossus one shots them.
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Zealot Charge personally is a joke compared to old Zealot Speed.
So i caught up to you wack once and you walk away. Then i have to w8 another minute to wack again. With Speedlots Zealots could actually keep up with kiting units such as Hydras with speed.
The Zealots has good DPS. IT just never uses it because it can't reach anything. Melee is useless without speed upgrades.
Any Zerg can vouch how useless Lings are without Speed
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i feel like protoss is the strongest race its just people are playing them wrong
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Zerg vs Terran is in a really good spot right now. The matchup still needs to be worked out a lot more but there's a lot of potential.
PvZ is kind of funky right now. It seems in Korea zergs are doing better because they are all hyper aggressive ling/roach attacks nonstop. Playing the macro game against toss right now is pretty brutal as zerg, force fields are insane and just flat uncounterable if the P does them right all throughout mid game. The 6 gate with expo is very rough. Colossus are still an insane constant threat, just 1 out can cause huge problems. Tons of toss going with starports to start and going mutas is just suicide a lot of the time.
TvP needs the most work imo. Mech MUST be made viable, but whether that can be done before the next expansion is unknown. Protoss just has extreme mobility against mech that makes it almost impossible to use. And P will probably need some storm change.
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On November 16 2010 13:32 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 13:23 darmousseh wrote:On November 16 2010 13:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On November 16 2010 13:06 coddan wrote:
Protoss nerf incoming, lol IMO protoss need certain things nerfed and then other areas really buffed, they are a bit too unbalanced (not imbalanced, just they seem to alternate between unbeatable and helpless). Expect a nerf to high templar and a buff to mid tier unit (like zealot or sentry). Personally i'm hoping for a removal of the charge ability on zealots and lowering the cost of zealot speed to 100/100 and lowering the cost of twilight council to 150/50. I think this would really help protoss in the mid-early game as they could get blink and zealot legs a lot faster to counter effect the stim and concussive shells upgrades. Buffing the sentry would be the opposite of what I have in mind, I think thats one of the units they are far too reliant on and that, in some situations, is far too strong (its stupid that force field traps units now, instead of pushing them back). However, you cant nerf it without buffing something else.
Such as zealots and stalkers! Maybe not stalkers because it would break PvZ, but as a BW Terran I envied my opponents ability to send endless streams of speedlots at me off of 3-5 bases. Having switched to Protoss in SC2, it's kind of sad that this kind of play is never going to work against any race because what was once a great core unit became just another meatshield for the colossus. I would much prefer that the sentry is removed altogether so they can buff zealots and stalkers to the spammable level of marine/marauder and roach/zergling.
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United States519 Posts
LOL at protoss 
we get retardedly bad units like stalkers and unbelievably good units like colossi and sentries. Feels like im playing warcraft III where i have a bunch of garbage units (gateway units) to act as cannon fodder and a couple heroes (tier 3) doing all the work.
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EPT
